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  1. #51
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    As a Fi dom I feel so lost in this thread...

    Anyway, I agree with @Look Alive_Sunshine's assessment a couple of pages back.
    Haha, Ne-bomb. I appreciate the feedback though.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  2. #52
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I have been thinking the last few days.. and I really think there is a chance of 4w5. I am not saying this to convince anyone else but I just wanted to address some of these points bc I am curious your thoughts, and also I really appreciate the feedback because either way it makes me think.

    Oral narcissism, hmm. The reason I need to sing is because thats who I am, what I love to do, who I have been all my life. Even as a child I used to sing alone to my tape recorder in the woods. It's not about being "front and center" - it's about expressing myself. While I will prepare for a show, I never play on command at parties - I never "entertain" offhandedly.. I am way too shy and uneasy about that, unless I'm prepared. Is that oral narcissism or just a love for singing, and delivering a message?

    Singing expresses the point that I truly believe - that triumph over adversity is more important than a perfect performance OR a marketable band. Triumph over adversity is a theme in my life because of the adversity I have faced. Singing in itself, is a triumph. If I don't have that message, I'm not being true to myself. As much as I'll admit having narcissistic tendencies, it's really not about narcissism at all. In that case, it's about being a symbol of what I believe in, being a symbol of self. My audience is SMALLER because of this decision. I'm not sure I can attribute this to enneagram.
    When I used the term "oral narcissism" it wasn't pertaining to your singing, or anything literally oral at all. I believe (don't quote me) that is was Naranjo that attributed the term to e3, and "phallic narcissism" to e8. My attribution of that term was more to your insistence on singing when they wanted to find someone else. I read, "me or no one" in that statement, which apparently was not where you were coming from at all. The thing I love most about the Enneagram is that only the individual knows their motivations. All I can ever do when assisting or giving my opinion on type is to provide what I know about each type, not the individual in question (that's their job). Sorry for the misinterpretation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    As for confidence - I have a weird mix of confidence and unconfidence. The dichotomy is definitely more suited to a 4w3 description. But I have seen confidence in "who I am" in other 4w5s irl, and I have seen 4w3s who are more self conscious about how others are viewing them, than I am. I'm really not … "confident" unless I have practiced something a lot. When i've been playing music since I was 4, and trained, I still have tremendous stage fright until the song starts. I shake back stage. I never feel prepared. It's only when the music kicks in that I 'lose myself." And the moment I have to talk to the audience I'm awkward and occasionally terrified.
    I think this just describes 4 (rather than a specific wing) as all Individualists struggle with this confidence/unconfidence thing, because we have an envy-shame-envy-shame viscious cycle going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    My band members and family are burdened with constantly giving me pep talks OR, I completely ignore everyone all day of the show. After the show, I just want to go home. I don't want complements or insults, I don't want to "be the star." All I want is to go home after I play.. not deal with people. But I have to because it's part of the job. I use my whispery voice as an excuse to avoid attention and talking to people after the show, and get out of there as quickly as possible. I DO NOT ENJOY being the center of attention unless I am on stage, channeling the music.
    I guess you could be w5 (or at least balanced wings). The only other 4 I know IRL is a 4w3 musician that I've been able to observe pretty well. He's a very down to earth guy when you talk to him (due largely to health) but he does tend to get caught up in the lights and attention and has even talked about his constant struggle to fight that and keep himself humble. That's the core 4's desire for authenticity winning out, but the 3 wing does tug toward accolades and success. It sounds like you don't really experience that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    It might seem I'm attention seeking but it's not that, it's just that I express my thoughts and feelings as honestly as I possibly can in my posts, and the more honest I am, the more extreme it is, becuase my emotions are on the extreme side. Also talking about myself makes me tense so maybe I go overboard. It's not something I do irl. Doing this on forum has been a huge exercise for me.
    That's interesting because I think 4's generally tend to be able to talk about themselves easily (in an introspective way). Perhaps that's both your 7 and 8 fix's influence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    When I was still mistyped at 8, I wrote on a typing thread about this problem, which I think is the most honest thing I've written about how I function, in this sense. I'll put it here, no pressure to read it of course, as it is long, but its the bst way I can address this issue.

    I do resonate with a lot of what you said here, the feeling grounded, like an animal (hence your name, I see. ) and feeling that being understood is not possible. Oh, how I feel that way. I think i've healead to the point of allowing others in now, but I choose them. Though I never feel truly understood, if I'm honest I still hope for that one person that might click. I used to be beyond hope, let any sprout of it die by fire, but I've come past that. Somehow. Your comment about "building up strength to ward off vulnerability" sounds all too familliar. I tend to use my 5 wing that way, as a defense mechanism. I grew up fed the message that feeling was not okay (plus I'm Narcoleptic and had to go to bat with Cataplexy), and thus thinking became my safety. I'm still learning to allow my vulnerable truly emotional self to take the lead. Thanks for sharing these thoughts, I value them.

    The Enneagram Institute has this awesome quote about the animal factor (that I know I've posted on the forum somewhere already, but here it is again):

    "More than any other personality type, healthy Fours are the bridge between the spiritual and the animal in human nature because they are so aware of these two sides of themselves. They sense in themselves the depths to which human beings can descend, as well as the heights to which they can be swept up. No other personality type is as habitually aware of the potentials and predicaments of human nature: human beings are spiritual animals occupying an uneasy place between two orders of existence. Fours sense both sides of their potentially conflicting natures, and they suffer intensely or are ecstatic because of them. This is why, at their best, healthy Fours create something which can move others deeply because they have been able to get in touch with the hidden depths of human nature by delving deeply into their own. By doing so, they transcend themselves, and are able to discover something universal about human nature, fusing personal conflicts and divergent feelings into art."

    Source here.

    The healthier I have become, the more I feel that way-- it's such beautiful redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I'm actually not a chameleon at all. I thought about this before, because of my profiles. My tendency is the opposite - to be TOO MUCH of myself, not adaptable enough. It's something I hate about myself and which pisses people off quite often.

    I am a Ne-Fi type. Ne dominance. The 3 facebook pages IS NOT about being a chameleon. It's about defining each side of me. It's about thoroughly exploring my internal conflicts, which side of me hates the other. Each personality on facebook is CAREFULLY defined, it represents something very real inside me. I do not "constantly come up with new identities." I came up with these three as a theme, to represent internal conflicts, more than a decade ago - and those three aspects of me, continue to represent the same aspects of me. They have been there really all my life, in one form or another. They don't "change" with the situation, nor do they "fit" some social scheme. There's actually nothing chameleon about it - it's an honest self-expression, as honest as I can possibly be, about the different facets which exist within myself, and within each person. None of them "blend in" to some situation, they all come in when they want to. Also, there is NOTHING about it that is designed to reach a goal. Aside from simply EXPRESSING myself. These personalities came out organically, naturally, in my self-expression, in my songs.. and then I embodied in photographs, what happened naturally, and made it into a social symbolism. I symbolise who I am, I symbolize what I stand for, I symbolize my understanding of my own psychology, and i represent it artistically and as a lifestyle choice. In real life, I don't change between persona. I'm always the same..always always always. The side of me that comes out in shows and photoshoots is of course, emphasized in that context because it is expressing something. I've been wearing white on stage since I was 10 years old. Nothing has changd; my sides and expressions are 'static' although they evolve honestly as I mature. There was nothing goal-oriented about doing this - the closest thing to a 'goal' was a social experiment, but I didn't think about it that way until later, because it evolved entirely naturally. I do politics on one page and music on the other, which is convenient in terms of not scaring fans, but really - It's not a business move. I just don't feel that music and politics SHOULD mix. And anyway, my fans can just as easily link to my other profile - which is quite obviously ME, and there I am expressing what I am expressing.

    The process LOOKS a certain way, but it really has nothing to do with being a chameleon or having a goal, outside of being very dedicated to the art of personal expression. In fact, it wasn't even a conscious decision. I signed up my male alter-ego first because I was uncomfortable being on facebook, but needed to contact someone about a roommate situation. I then added my other persona who was female (the politics one) because I was doing freelance work and I didn't want to have someone show up and see that I'm female when they talked to a male. The last one, in a white dress, I put it up because then I was playing shows, and people were trying to contact me about band stuff.. and it just made sense to have it up. The honest self expression was already there in photos, and I'd been doing photos of 'different sides of myself in opposition or tension' for a while - but putting it up to 'express it' ended up happening one at a time as a matter of convenience, and because "art is life and life is art." It was perhaps a unique way to express how I view myself, but it was not a plan or a goal.

    I wanted to clarify this -
    I have no ego tied into being 4w5. If anything my more "ideal" version of myself is 4w3. So I am not saying this because I want to 'sell' wing 5, but simply because the understanding that people often jump to - chameleon - is not accurate. I understand why you say it and it's perfectly intelligent conclusion given the data, but it is just not really how it manifests at all, so I wanted to clear that up.
    Totally, no worries. As aforementioned, the Enneagram is a tool that can only be implemented by the knower of motivations (you). I'm never surprised when an assumption of mine is wrong, especially with typology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    It is a much more honest self expression and intellectual process. My parents are both psychiatrists and I spend much time reading and thinking about different and conflicting aspects of the human psyche, anima vs. animus, spirit animals, etc. I then express myself as such, symbolically. But outside facebook, I am in the same sweatshirt wearing, jeans wearing, messy-hair no makeup and flats… every day. That is, if I leave the house at all, which I have barely done in two years. I have maybe left the house to socialize , ten total times in the entirety of 2013, all of them being because friends drove to my house from far away and insisted. Since my voice has been gone again for almost three years, I have not put on makeup during that time period except once when I went to Ren Faire.
    Just to be clear, this says w5 to you? I get dressed fully (it's a form of expression for me) every day even if I'm just working from home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Definitely more balanced than yours though, but you also have a 5 fix.
    Quite so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    It's more confusing because - what would ENFP 4w5 look like?
    Also, I am realizing I was right in the first place - I think I'm 478 instead of 471. Not entirely sure there though,
    I'm completely the wrong person to ask about that because I don't beleive every Enneagram type can be every MBTI type. I have trouble buying extroverted 4, 5 or 9 (they are called the withdrawn types for a reason) and introverted 3 and 7. I can totally see how someone might look like one of those combinations but I beleive that can be explained by health and other aspects of the enneagram. For example: a very unhealthy 3 disintegrating to 9 might look like an introverted layabed, and a So first 9 might seem like an extrovert because of their instinctual preferences. There's my two cents.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Haha. I just went through and pressed a bunch of random ones. Those smileys are so hilarious..

    But yeah there really is nowhere to go from there :p.
    @infinity
    Haha yeah I like them too


    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    yeah. I always get that way. Explanaining who I am is so unnatural! >^.v.^<
    Is the problem about putting it into words precisely or is there a general self-unawareness for you in real life?


    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    I had to reboot entirely but amazingly, yes! The auto save only included the quoted though and not my responses. :/
    Too bad then :/

  4. #54
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    When I used the term "oral narcissism" it wasn't pertaining to your singing, or anything literally oral at all. I believe (don't quote me) that is was Naranjo that attributed the term to e3, and "phallic narcissism" to e8. My attribution of that term was more to your insistence on singing when they wanted to find someone else. I read, "me or no one" in that statement, which apparently was not where you were coming from at all.
    Ahh I see. Yeah - I had mistyped at 8 for a while and I related to phallic narcissism, but I might have misunderstood, so I am trying not to use that as a reference. I am definitely narcissistic in the "I am special" sense, and in the sense of being more self-absorbed than focused on others, and I can seek admiration in some ways.

    I guess "me or no one" applies in a sense. I have no problem playing in a band backing someone up, if I believe in their music etc, but the problem is I don't really enjoy doing music unless I'm singing. I like singing in choirs, I don't need to play the 'lead role' , I just really like singing. Although admittedly in choirs I don't have the same freedom as I do when I sing alone..it's just not the same.

    Playing keyboard on its own isn't fun for me, even as a solo. TBH I have been playing since I'm 4 and I have my own style, and people complement me on my playing a lot, but I still don't enjoy it' - its not singing. I've played gigs just as a pianist and even for money, but I don't enjoy it, I don't get that rush. Regardless of the complements. On the contrary my singing voice is difficult, comes and goes, and people have mixed reactions, but I still get the rush.

    If someone else wants to sing my songs in their own band, I have a few "rules" - I'd want to record & release a version of it first, and I'd want to sing on that recording because that's part of my vision and how the song came out. If I've already released the cd, then other bands can sing my songs/ pay me/ etc, but I wouldn't join "as a keyboardist" because the whole shlepping of instruments and late nights and crowds and traveling wouldn't be worth it if I'm not singing.

    The thing I love most about the Enneagram is that only the individual knows their motivations. All I can ever do when assisting or giving my opinion on type is to provide what I know about each type, not the individual in question (that's their job). Sorry for the misinterpretation!
    Oh no!! NOthing to be sorry about. : D That's why questions and thoughts are great - they bring out more thoughts. I love that about enneagram too. You weren't 'presumptuous' (the way I read it) , you were just offering an interpretation.


    I think this just describes 4 (rather than a specific wing) as all Individualists struggle with this confidence/unconfidence thing, because we have an envy-shame-envy-shame viscious cycle going.
    True

    I guess you could be w5 (or at least balanced wings). The only other 4 I know IRL is a 4w3 musician that I've been able to observe pretty well. He's a very down to earth guy when you talk to him (due largely to health) but he does tend to get caught up in the lights and attention and has even talked about his constant struggle to fight that and keep himself humble. That's the core 4's desire for authenticity winning out, but the 3 wing does tug toward accolades and success. It sounds like you don't really experience that.
    Yeah.. this is part of why I get confused.

    I would never fight to keep myself humble - I actually think humility and modesty are overrated. Success and attention is not what builds my ego - but triumph over adversity, hard work and knowing that I stood up to great strife etc, can definitely build my ego. And I can have a 'big ego' at times, and other times I can have 'not enough' confidence.

    I like people who are realistic in their self-assessments. If they boast about their accomplishments or complain about their faults - that's real. If they can be a bit objective about themselves - that's even more real. But I also think bias and self-love or self-hate are natural, instinctual. It's instinctual to think you are 'special' and to have your own interests in mind - if two male animals didn't compete for a female animal, the species wouldn't mate. I find the over-emphasis on modesty to be a silly social construction. But I do think it's good to be humble in the sense of compassionate, realizing your problems aren't bigger than god, having room for others, being able to apologize, realizing what your faults and mistakes are and when to improve, etc.

    That's interesting because I think 4's generally tend to be able to talk about themselves easily (in an introspective way). Perhaps that's both your 7 and 8 fix's influence?
    Oh I talk about myself easily, it's just the categorization in enneagram terms that is hard. For instance, I'll tell stories from my life, and how I feel about it, ad nauseum, or talk about my ideas and my past.. but having to attribute qualities to myself which I don't see as being that simple.. "Are you confident or unconfident" for instance. This stumps me.

    If something just comes out naturally I can talk about myself, but it's the oversimplified categories that stump me. "Are you straight gay or bi?" Well… there was this girl once, and these guys, and..[insert long rant about why this is or isnt relevant] blahblah. So it's a lot of talking, but the question isn't as simple to me as it might seem.

    Also I think most qualities are a side of another quality. For instance, idealism and cynicism. These often go together - they are not opposites. Cynics would not be cynical if their ideals weren't crushed. There are some people who just don't care, but idealists and cynics are on the same spectrum. So knowing how paradoxical things are in general, it makes , specifically "LABELING" myself more difficult, whereas TALKING ABOUT myself as it comes up, is natural.

    Confidence works this way too. True confidence is one thing; bravado & insecurity is another. Like most people - I have more bravado/insecurity unless I'm healthy.


    I do resonate with a lot of what you said here, the feeling grounded, like an animal (hence your name, I see. ) and feeling that being understood is not possible. Oh, how I feel that way. I think i've healead to the point of allowing others in now, but I choose them. Though I never feel truly understood, if I'm honest I still hope for that one person that might click. I used to be beyond hope, let any sprout of it die by fire, but I've come past that. Somehow. Your comment about "building up strength to ward off vulnerability" sounds all too familliar. I tend to use my 5 wing that way, as a defense mechanism. I grew up fed the message that feeling was not okay (plus I'm Narcoleptic and had to go to bat with Cataplexy), and thus thinking became my safety. I'm still learning to allow my vulnerable truly emotional self to take the lead. Thanks for sharing these thoughts, I value them.
    I'm still struggling with that too - learning to allow my vulnerable and emotional self to take the lead. In fact that's the struggle I've been emphasizing lately in my attempts to grow, and it is the biggest struggle of my life too - its a major theme in my music. It seems that I had some triumphs but then I went too far in that direction, and now I'm veering back the other way, back into my armor.

    I really relate to what you wrote here about using your 5 wing that way. I build up strength in a similar way. I'd love to hear more about how Cataplexy works? I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It reminds me of something fictional I'm working on - maybe I'll PM you. The character in my novel most similar to me..

    It's interesting you latched on to the phrase about building up strength & warding off vulnerability - that was absolutely crucial, and has been a huge reason for my mistypes and misunderstandings with enneagram, but also a major theme in my life. I hadn't thought of it necessarily as a 5 wing thing, but the past few weeks I was starting to make that connection and what you wrote here is.. noted.

    I had to rely on my mind too for various reasons. I couldn't walk for a while, and I've had to gain power through robot-mode from a young age, with a person who was temperamental & much larger than me. I learned the "you can't get a reaction out of me unless I let you" game. It's like I go to my 'detached' place and take control?



    The Enneagram Institute has this awesome quote about the animal factor (that I know I've posted on the forum somewhere already, but here it is again):

    "More than any other personality type, healthy Fours are the bridge between the spiritual and the animal in human nature because they are so aware of these two sides of themselves. They sense in themselves the depths to which human beings can descend, as well as the heights to which they can be swept up. No other personality type is as habitually aware of the potentials and predicaments of human nature: human beings are spiritual animals occupying an uneasy place between two orders of existence. Fours sense both sides of their potentially conflicting natures, and they suffer intensely or are ecstatic because of them. This is why, at their best, healthy Fours create something which can move others deeply because they have been able to get in touch with the hidden depths of human nature by delving deeply into their own. By doing so, they transcend themselves, and are able to discover something universal about human nature, fusing personal conflicts and divergent feelings into art."

    Source here.

    The healthier I have become, the more I feel that way-- it's such beautiful redemption.
    I agree about feeling that way when healthy though I had a more negative association with animalism when unhealthy. It's so great, this quote. I relate so much!!! I will show you something from my MOTM on PerC:

    Why did you choose "Animal" as your username?
    I am animal, human, and symbol at once.

    ~ Animal is my instinct, appetite & desire, my will to survive.
    ~ Human is my mind, ideas, and imagination.
    ~ Symbol is my identity, my significance, my place in the world, my legacy.

    I call myself Animal because that is my barest foundation, whereas symbol is a result of my actions. My symbolism is out of my control, dependent upon how other people view me as a human animal. If I achieve clarity about who I am, and act with passion and purpose, the symbol speaks for itself, and it speaks honestly. Symbol is the only part of me that will transcend mortality, but the path to the universe is through the core. By cutting myself down to my most base, staring my animal in the face, and embracing it, I learn the nature of my humanity. Honesty, clarity and purpose shape the symbol.

    On a more personal level, I chose my username because:
    ~ I learned most of my behavior from my first cat. My second cat refined me.
    ~ I relate to animals. I indulge in carnal musical showers, long walks in nature, immersion in the elements. I’m comfortable with nudity. I love to sweat and get dirty. I love any form of metaphorical hunting. I read body language. I am helplessly empathetic but ultimately survivalist. I want my steak, music and sex primal and bloody.
    ~ Animals are my favorite company.

    ____

    {As a side note, my approach to my own 'symbolism' is also congruent with how I don't like to "label" myself but rather let my expression speak for itself.}


    Totally, no worries. As aforementioned, the Enneagram is a tool that can only be implemented by the knower of motivations (you). I'm never surprised when an assumption of mine is wrong, especially with typology.
    Oh me neither. ANd it's all good - I wasn't taking it as "accusations" or even "assumptions" - they were conclusions based on the data you had, which only helped me to elaborate further. It's cool =D

    Just to be clear, this says w5 to you? I get dressed fully (it's a form of expression for me) every day even if I'm just working from home.
    I'm not sure if it says anything enneagram related. I don't dress fully if I'm working from home (in fact that's adorable that you do) but I do dress symbolically and expressively all the time, even at home. My clothes, color scheme, etc, all has meaning. It's about meaning and beauty rather than glamor- but also mobility, comfort, expression of my body language. I don't like turtlenecks constricting me and I don't like high heels constricting my natural movement. When I go out, I still put more emphasis on meaning, and for instance yesterday I felt like crap so I went to pick up my medications in my pajamas. But I still need to feel like I'm dressing to EXPRESS where I'm at , in that moment. I wouldn't dress like crap if I felt amazing. My body matches my mood matches my thoughts. It's all expression. That's different from "dressing UP" though. It's more of a natural way of life. It doesn't take more "time" than NOT dressing expressively because all of my colors and clothes mean something, and it's all right there. I have an eye for beauty and a love for it.. in fact, beauty is holy … so that too, is there. But some standard for fashion statements is not there as much. Although there have been periods in my life when dressing expressively included tremendous makeup and glamour and intensity. Because of what I was going through.

    How dressed up do you get?

    Quite so.

    I'm completely the wrong person to ask about that because I don't beleive every Enneagram type can be every MBTI type. I have trouble buying extroverted 4, 5 or 9 (they are called the withdrawn types for a reason) and introverted 3 and 7. I can totally see how someone might look like one of those combinations but I beleive that can be explained by health and other aspects of the enneagram. For example: a very unhealthy 3 disintegrating to 9 might look like an introverted layabed, and a So first 9 might seem like an extrovert because of their instinctual preferences. There's my two cents.
    Ah I see. They say ENFP is common for type 4 - you don't agree? What is your MBTI? I have considered INFP as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I'm not sure if it says anything enneagram related. I don't dress fully if I'm working from home (in fact that's adorable that you do) but I do dress symbolically and expressively all the time, even at home. My clothes, color scheme, etc, all has meaning. It's about meaning and beauty rather than glamor- but also mobility, comfort, expression of my body language. I don't like turtlenecks constricting me and I don't like high heels constricting my natural movement. When I go out, I still put more emphasis on meaning, and for instance yesterday I felt like crap so I went to pick up my medications in my pajamas. But I still need to feel like I'm dressing to EXPRESS where I'm at , in that moment. I wouldn't dress like crap if I felt amazing. My body matches my mood matches my thoughts. It's all expression. That's different from "dressing UP" though. It's more of a natural way of life. It doesn't take more "time" than NOT dressing expressively because all of my colors and clothes mean something, and it's all right there. I have an eye for beauty and a love for it.. in fact, beauty is holy … so that too, is there. But some standard for fashion statements is not there as much. Although there have been periods in my life when dressing expressively included tremendous makeup and glamour and intensity. Because of what I was going through.
    Wow that sounds so 4-ish. Right?

    I like to dress up but I don't do it this consciously with meaning.

    It does have to do with self-expression and moods but it's not something I could explain well even to myself.

    Maybe it's the MBTI, I just do it with Se and you probably don't.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Haha yeah I like them too
    LOOL They are so funny.

    Is the problem about putting it into words precisely or is there a general self-unawareness for you in real life?
    I think I answered this in the above post (which I hadn't written yet when you asked) - it's about labels that don't capture the entirety of me, and overly simplistic categorization, not about self-awareness per se. In fact this might come froM TOO MUCH self-awareness; understanding the various implications of each facet of myself, and finding it difficult to express in a singular word.

    Let me know if the previous post answers this question =)


    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Wow that sounds so 4-ish. Right?

    I like to dress up but I don't do it this consciously with meaning.
    It's not necessarily conscious. Sometimes it is, but it's just that my meaning, color systems, etc - are so deeply ingrained that it comes out through the whole process. Sometimes I 'think' about it but it's more that I feel it out. In fact, usually I get dressed and figure out "what it means" later on, if I think about it at all. I am just drawn to things that express who I am and how I feel at that moment. It's an automatic process. It's the same way I do art work . I create the piece, I let the song or the story write itself through me, or the photograph just IS… and then later I figure out what I was /am feeling, what this says about me, because the artwork has revealed it to me. This is why I call myself a vessel through which expression emerges. It is such a lifestyle and deeply ingrained process that it's hardly conscious, though interpreting it can be conscious.

    It does have to do with self-expression and moods but it's not something I could explain well even to myself.

    Maybe it's the MBTI, I just do it with Se and you probably don't.
    Yeah, I know I am a Ne user, therefore not Se.

    I might have a similar experience though, it's just that as a 4 I take the time to "figure myself out," interpret the implications. Does that make sense?
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I think I answered this in the above post (which I hadn't written yet when you asked) - it's about labels that don't capture the entirety of me, and overly simplistic categorization, not about self-awareness per se. In fact this might come froM TOO MUCH self-awareness; understanding the various implications of each facet of myself, and finding it difficult to express in a singular word.

    Let me know if the previous post answers this question =)
    Yes I was reading that post and I thought this exactly, that it was answering it already. :p


    It's not necessarily conscious. Sometimes it is, but it's just that my meaning, color systems, etc - are so deeply ingrained that it comes out through the whole process. Sometimes I 'think' about it but it's more that I feel it out. In fact, usually I get dressed and figure out "what it means" later on, if I think about it at all. I am just drawn to things that express who I am and how I feel at that moment. It's an automatic process. It's the same way I do art work . I create the piece, I let the song or the story write itself through me, or the photograph just IS… and then later I figure out what I was /am feeling, what this says about me, because the artwork has revealed it to me. This is why I call myself a vessel through which expression emerges. It is such a lifestyle and deeply ingrained process that it's hardly conscious, though interpreting it can be conscious.
    Well see I don't spend the time figuring it out. Sometimes maybe I get an insight out of nowhere but that's all.


    Yeah, I know I am a Ne user, therefore not Se.

    I might have a similar experience though, it's just that as a 4 I take the time to "figure myself out," interpret the implications. Does that make sense?
    Yeah just what I said above lol.. I don't take the time like you do. Even if I tried to, I'd draw up a blank. Those insights I can't really control when they'll come. So I think that's MBTI related too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Thanks for sharing these thoughts, I value them.
    Since you said you valued these thoughts, I wanted to share something with you. A separate issue from my typing (per se) but thought as a fellow 4 (or possibly fellow 4w5) you might appreciate?

    Re: what you wrote here.


    The Enneagram Institute has this awesome quote about the animal factor (that I know I've posted on the forum somewhere already, but here it is again):

    "More than any other personality type, healthy Fours are the bridge between the spiritual and the animal in human nature because they are so aware of these two sides of themselves. They sense in themselves the depths to which human beings can descend, as well as the heights to which they can be swept up. No other personality type is as habitually aware of the potentials and predicaments of human nature: human beings are spiritual animals occupying an uneasy place between two orders of existence. Fours sense both sides of their potentially conflicting natures, and they suffer intensely or are ecstatic because of them. This is why, at their best, healthy Fours create something which can move others deeply because they have been able to get in touch with the hidden depths of human nature by delving deeply into their own. By doing so, they transcend themselves, and are able to discover something universal about human nature, fusing personal conflicts and divergent feelings into art."

    Source here.


    A while back I wrote a post on someone's thread on PErC, asking, "What is 4's core?" I put the post in my blog so I could find it more easily.

    http://personalitycafe.com/blogs/ani...4s-core-15257/


    If you don't have time to read all that I will put what was most relevant, here:





    Wanted to share =) Curious if you relate. If you have time, no pressure of course, I know I can babble forever on the "animal" and "symbolism/ mirroring" topics. ;D
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Ahh I see. Yeah - I had mistyped at 8 for a while and I related to phallic narcissism, but I might have misunderstood, so I am trying not to use that as a reference. I am definitely narcissistic in the "I am special" sense, and in the sense of being more self-absorbed than focused on others, and I can seek admiration in some ways.

    I guess "me or no one" applies in a sense. I have no problem playing in a band backing someone up, if I believe in their music etc, but the problem is I don't really enjoy doing music unless I'm singing. I like singing in choirs, I don't need to play the 'lead role' , I just really like singing. Although admittedly in choirs I don't have the same freedom as I do when I sing alone..it's just not the same.

    Playing keyboard on its own isn't fun for me, even as a solo. TBH I have been playing since I'm 4 and I have my own style, and people complement me on my playing a lot, but I still don't enjoy it' - its not singing. I've played gigs just as a pianist and even for money, but I don't enjoy it, I don't get that rush. Regardless of the complements. On the contrary my singing voice is difficult, comes and goes, and people have mixed reactions, but I still get the rush.

    If someone else wants to sing my songs in their own band, I have a few "rules" - I'd want to record & release a version of it first, and I'd want to sing on that recording because that's part of my vision and how the song came out. If I've already released the cd, then other bands can sing my songs/ pay me/ etc, but I wouldn't join "as a keyboardist" because the whole shlepping of instruments and late nights and crowds and traveling wouldn't be worth it if I'm not singing.
    I mean all of that makes sense from the perspective of a 4, the "I'm special" thing specifically. All 4's have both a positive and negative side of that sentiment-- "I'm uniquely gifted" and "I'm uniquely scarred in a way no one can understand." What differs between the wings (or at least as far as I've observed and read) is the 4w3 leads with the positive and occasionally dips into the negative, and 4w5 is the opposite. They err on both sides, but favor the opposite sides. From my perspective, you have the confidence in yourself (that you are uniquely gifted) to insist on singing, I don't have this. I grew up singing too, mostly under the direction of my 2w3 classical Musical Theatre loving mother. She nurtured me until I began developing my own style, and then everything changed. The way I expressed myself was wrong, the notes were right, but why did I sing it like that. I love my Mom, she has many wonderful qualities, but she crushed my young spirit in pride. It marked me in these ways: I saw my Mom as a show off, something I never wanted to be-- so I couldn't sing. Was I talented? The last thing I wanted was to claim I was when I wasn't, and my own Mother didn't seem to think I was. That feeling even pertains to my artwork and poetry! There was a description (of course I can't find it now) on the forum recently comparing and contrasting 4w3 and 4w5. The end of 4w5 section captured the extreme struggle I have with actually doing and the shame and frustration that tend to cripple and eventually bury 4w5's because they have nothing to show for their intensely creative minds. You on the other hand, are not like that from what I gather! You recognize your gifts and use them! This is much more 4w3 than 4w5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Yeah.. this is part of why I get confused.

    I would never fight to keep myself humble - I actually think humility and modesty are overrated. Success and attention is not what builds my ego - but triumph over adversity, hard work and knowing that I stood up to great strife etc, can definitely build my ego. And I can have a 'big ego' at times, and other times I can have 'not enough' confidence.

    I like people who are realistic in their self-assessments. If they boast about their accomplishments or complain about their faults - that's real. If they can be a bit objective about themselves - that's even more real. But I also think bias and self-love or self-hate are natural, instinctual. It's instinctual to think you are 'special' and to have your own interests in mind - if two male animals didn't compete for a female animal, the species wouldn't mate. I find the over-emphasis on modesty to be a silly social construction. But I do think it's good to be humble in the sense of compassionate, realizing your problems aren't bigger than god, having room for others, being able to apologize, realizing what your faults and mistakes are and when to improve, etc.
    Hmm, I'm not sure I totally agree. Perhaps my use of the word humble has masked what I was trying to say, the point is that he strives after autheticity but wrestles with the uglyness of vanity and success. There is a large part of him that chases those things, wants them, values them in others but his desire for what's real wins out. It's not an over emphasis of humility, it's desiring not to be valued for superficial reasons. My point in all of this though, is that 4w3 struggles with that. As a 4w5 I don't, I actually have a deep loathing for all things acheivement oriented, popular or contrived. This even cripples me at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Oh I talk about myself easily, it's just the categorization in enneagram terms that is hard. For instance, I'll tell stories from my life, and how I feel about it, ad nauseum, or talk about my ideas and my past.. but having to attribute qualities to myself which I don't see as being that simple.. "Are you confident or unconfident" for instance. This stumps me.

    If something just comes out naturally I can talk about myself, but it's the oversimplified categories that stump me. "Are you straight gay or bi?" Well… there was this girl once, and these guys, and..[insert long rant about why this is or isnt relevant] blahblah. So it's a lot of talking, but the question isn't as simple to me as it might seem.

    Also I think most qualities are a side of another quality. For instance, idealism and cynicism. These often go together - they are not opposites. Cynics would not be cynical if their ideals weren't crushed. There are some people who just don't care, but idealists and cynics are on the same spectrum. So knowing how paradoxical things are in general, it makes , specifically "LABELING" myself more difficult, whereas TALKING ABOUT myself as it comes up, is natural.

    Confidence works this way too. True confidence is one thing; bravado & insecurity is another. Like most people - I have more bravado/insecurity unless I'm healthy.
    Gotcha. I don't think the answers to those questions need to be simple though, the Enneagram is surely not. I beleive the value (and truth) is in the long, complicated answers and as 4's we're actually willing to go there. Most other types resist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I'm still struggling with that too - learning to allow my vulnerable and emotional self to take the lead. In fact that's the struggle I've been emphasizing lately in my attempts to grow, and it is the biggest struggle of my life too - its a major theme in my music. It seems that I had some triumphs but then I went too far in that direction, and now I'm veering back the other way, back into my armor.

    I really relate to what you wrote here about using your 5 wing that way. I build up strength in a similar way. I'd love to hear more about how Cataplexy works? I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It reminds me of something fictional I'm working on - maybe I'll PM you. The character in my novel most similar to me..
    Cataplexy is unfortunate, I wouldn't wish it on anyone but I do see how God has used it in my life. That guy has a serious sense of humor and knows me way too well. It's a neurological symptom and a product of REM sleep (Narcolepsy is a REM disorder) and manifests at the onset of emotion. Kind of an ironic joke for a 4, huh? I was diagnosed when I was 15 and even up to a year before then if I laughed, got angry, or any number of emotions, I lost muscle tone and physically collapsed. This could be as mild as a momentary buckling of the knees, and needing to steady myself, slurred speech, or a full and total body collapse leaving me in a heap on the floor. I definitely have a gift for leadership in the capacity of using my words and presence to communicate truth, a gift I fully abused as a young teenager. I used it to tear arguments and people to shreds in debating situations at school (history or religion classes usually), and in emotional confrontations with people I valued. That's definitely one of the reason I believe God allowed that rug to literally be pulled out from under me via Cataplexy. It was like He said, "hey kid, you are doing way more damage to yourself and others than you realize. This might hurt a little, but it will allow you to see yourself clearly, and eventually become the woman I made you to be." And so it has. Not that I'm fully that woman yet, haha. I still have a lot to learn, but I can see the monster I would have become if Cataplexy hadn't hamstrung me. It took me 7 years to find a medication to curb most of my Narcolepsy symptoms, but it's really given me my life back. The hard part has been learning to feel again, to let myself. In high school I emotionally and socially unplugged because what else could I do? You can't have friends and collapse every time something is funny! It takes some doing to repair that kind of trauma and conditioning, but I've come a long way. If you have any specific questions, I'm glad to answer them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    It's interesting you latched on to the phrase about building up strength & warding off vulnerability - that was absolutely crucial, and has been a huge reason for my mistypes and misunderstandings with enneagram, but also a major theme in my life. I hadn't thought of it necessarily as a 5 wing thing, but the past few weeks I was starting to make that connection and what you wrote here is.. noted.
    Yes, it's been a large theme in my story too. I'm glad if anything in my experience can help others like me make sense of themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I had to rely on my mind too for various reasons. I couldn't walk for a while, and I've had to gain power through robot-mode from a young age, with a person who was temperamental & much larger than me. I learned the "you can't get a reaction out of me unless I let you" game. It's like I go to my 'detached' place and take control?
    Yes, I do this too. It's like safety because only you are in control of yourself-- or so we convince ourselves. I think this is partially an 8 fix thing...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I agree about feeling that way when healthy though I had a more negative association with animalism when unhealthy. It's so great, this quote. I relate so much!!! I will show you something from my MOTM on PerC:

    Why did you choose "Animal" as your username?
    I am animal, human, and symbol at once.

    ~ Animal is my instinct, appetite & desire, my will to survive.
    ~ Human is my mind, ideas, and imagination.
    ~ Symbol is my identity, my significance, my place in the world, my legacy.

    I call myself Animal because that is my barest foundation, whereas symbol is a result of my actions. My symbolism is out of my control, dependent upon how other people view me as a human animal. If I achieve clarity about who I am, and act with passion and purpose, the symbol speaks for itself, and it speaks honestly. Symbol is the only part of me that will transcend mortality, but the path to the universe is through the core. By cutting myself down to my most base, staring my animal in the face, and embracing it, I learn the nature of my humanity. Honesty, clarity and purpose shape the symbol.

    On a more personal level, I chose my username because:
    ~ I learned most of my behavior from my first cat. My second cat refined me.
    ~ I relate to animals. I indulge in carnal musical showers, long walks in nature, immersion in the elements. I’m comfortable with nudity. I love to sweat and get dirty. I love any form of metaphorical hunting. I read body language. I am helplessly empathetic but ultimately survivalist. I want my steak, music and sex primal and bloody.
    ~ Animals are my favorite company.

    {As a side note, my approach to my own 'symbolism' is also congruent with how I don't like to "label" myself but rather let my expression speak for itself.}
    Cool, I find names to be of great value so it's always interesting to hear the intent behind them. I'm such an animal person too, and what the heck is that combination between empathy and survival?! I'm that way too, but it feels so juxtaposed at times (people don't get it). Not that all of me doesn't feel that way. I think it's perhaps just a product of having extreme respect and awe for nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I'm not sure if it says anything enneagram related. I don't dress fully if I'm working from home (in fact that's adorable that you do) but I do dress symbolically and expressively all the time, even at home. My clothes, color scheme, etc, all has meaning. It's about meaning and beauty rather than glamor- but also mobility, comfort, expression of my body language. I don't like turtlenecks constricting me and I don't like high heels constricting my natural movement. When I go out, I still put more emphasis on meaning, and for instance yesterday I felt like crap so I went to pick up my medications in my pajamas. But I still need to feel like I'm dressing to EXPRESS where I'm at , in that moment. I wouldn't dress like crap if I felt amazing. My body matches my mood matches my thoughts. It's all expression. That's different from "dressing UP" though. It's more of a natural way of life. It doesn't take more "time" than NOT dressing expressively because all of my colors and clothes mean something, and it's all right there. I have an eye for beauty and a love for it.. in fact, beauty is holy … so that too, is there. But some standard for fashion statements is not there as much. Although there have been periods in my life when dressing expressively included tremendous makeup and glamour and intensity. Because of what I was going through.

    How dressed up do you get?
    My style (each garment I wear, and what I combine with what) sometimes has meaning, but I usually dress more by what I feel like wearing. Actually, crap. I probably do portray more symbolism that I consciously intend. I like to mix hard and soft a lot, which is pretty symbolic for the way I see myself. I'm a vintage clothing dealer part time so I incorporate a lot of that history into what I wear, though I like to mix decades with each other and with current peices (juxtaposition again). I like novelty and unpredictable (yet aesthetically pleasing) color and pattern combinations. I'd wear armor if I could, I'm considering making some. I generally wear skirts or dresses, but can pull off menswear pretty easily too-- I do that only occasionally, and people who know me are usually taken aback when I do (everyone else, when I don't). I agree with you completely about heels for the most part, menswear style flats or boots are more my choice there. The way I dress on an everyday basis, most people would consider "dressed up" but (as you put it) getting dressed doesn't take more time that throwing on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt would. I enjoy expressing my style, but I generally dislike "fashion". I've done some wardrobe styling work and it's like painting for me...which I also do.

    The way I dress can vary in degree of formality.

    I tried to upload a few example pictures, but my computer is being dumb. I can PM them to you if you are interested!

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Ah I see. They say ENFP is common for type 4 - you don't agree? What is your MBTI? I have considered INFP as well.
    It's hard for me to grasp and I've never met an extroverted, withdrawn type. The closest thing was a roommate I had that typed as ENFP 4w3...until I moved in. I knew she wasn't a 4 pretty much right away, but besides asking questions, I held my peace to let her decide for herself. Two weeks in she re-typed as INFP 9w8. I'd love to interview someone IRL who identified as and extroverted 4 though, just to experience that and see if my theory fits.

    After much bloody deliberation and this thread (which did help), I type as INfJ (more Braveheart, less Ghandi). I'm seeing a therapist who is very into MBTI and she actually agrees with my typing-- Still, I don't put nearly as much stock in it as I do Enneagram.
    Last edited by small.wonder; 04-13-2014 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Grammar, spelling and all that jazz.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

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    @small.wonder

    I love your post. Much to say but also much to do irl and also I like to process things so, I might just skip to PMing you and answer this in a few days/ when I can. Thanks so much for all of it. : ) Will PM you soon. Outfit exchange yay!
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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