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  1. #21
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I think 4w3 are much more divided inside, because 4 and 3 are very contrasting in a lot of ways: I suck/I'm the best, withdrawn/flamboyant, emotional/almost frosty, stuck in the past/thinking about future goals, easily discouraged/indomitable. Also 4's don't like the rat race, while 3's are all about winning it. 4w3's are definitely more common among ENFP's.
    Yes, I'd call 4w3's "The Walking Contradiction" of the Enneagarm, which makes them hard to understand, specially for narrow minded people who are into 5 minutes typing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I also compartmentalize. For instance I have three facebook profiles: my male alter ego, and two female depictions. All three are as real as the others; they are all honest facets of myself. One of the females is from Earth and the other two are exiles from my home planet. :P The earth-female talks about politics and earthly things.. the other two have their own expression; the male tends to be more mysterious and express himself only through music and poetics whereas my female depiction is more philosophical and expressive. But I find it necessary to compartmentalize so that each self-expression is pure. Also, this way, fans follow my main page on facebook and they are not annoyed by my very not-PC , independent thinking politics, which end up annoying everyone of every party since I don't do 'parties' and go one issue at a time, so everyone thinks I'm deviant or wrong at some point. I never lie about the fact that these are all my pages, but I keep each presentation and exploration separate. I also hide things like which groups I belong to on certain profiles. I seem very open because I will discuss things like emotions and passion and sex very openly when others won't, but I am not nearly as open as I seem, and people can know me for years without knowing some of the most 'real' parts, unless they figure out where to look. I don't do this on purpose- I actually consider myself an open, true-to-myself expressive person, and my ideal self would be shameless. I do it without even realizing Im doing it, because it feels natural or I am protecting myself. It feels natural for instance, to withdraw when I feel insulted rather than give someone enough power to know that they hurt me. I prefer "you don't exist." Or "you have to earn my attention back, good luck." But without saying anything. It makes more sense to me to express my over-sensitive emotions in music and writing, rather than tell someone outright, and make myself vulnerable. If they care enough, they will figure my music and art out, and realize it's about them and handle it accordingly, and the truth is expressed; if they are willing to look for it.

    This is compartmentalization I think?
    This is indeed compartmentalization, and I'm very familiar with it since kindergarten, no kidding. Others will always see it as mysterious or cunning, but I can atest to the fact that it's a second nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post

    As far as w3 vs w5 goes, I have known plenty of w3s who are intelligent and curious. The difference is that 5 is more about finding security in knowledge. 3 uses that information to achieve.
    This I think, it's the key difference. As always it's about why and not what.

    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    @Animal 4w3 Sx/So. So so much of what you said is 4w3, even some of what I think you felt was w5.

    The need to sing for your band, refusing to get anyone else when your voice goes. As a 4w5 I don't have that kind of self confidence, it sounds like 3 oral narcissism (not being negative, it's just a large part of 3). Your multiple FB profiles/pages is such a literal depiction of the 3 chameleon tendency, being who you need to be to reach your goal. This would of course be based more in your authentic self (because you are a core 4).
    .
    Except for the chamaleon bit (I don't think he understands your motivation behind the action), I agree with everything else. It's all very wing 3, I don't see 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I have been thinking the last few days.. and I really think there is a chance of 4w5. I am not saying this to convince anyone else but I just wanted to address some of these points bc I am curious your thoughts, and also I really appreciate the feedback because either way it makes me think.


    Oral narcissism, hmm. The reason I need to sing is because thats who I am, what I love to do, who I have been all my life. Even as a child I used to sing alone to my tape recorder in the woods. It's not about being "front and center" - it's about expressing myself. While I will prepare for a show, I never play on command at parties - I never "entertain" offhandedly.. I am way too shy and uneasy about that, unless I'm prepared. Is that oral narcissism or just a love for singing, and delivering a message?

    Singing expresses the point that I truly believe - that triumph over adversity is more important than a perfect performance OR a marketable band. Triumph over adversity is a theme in my life because of the adversity I have faced. Singing in itself, is a triumph. If I don't have that message, I'm not being true to myself. As much as I'll admit having narcissistic tendencies, it's really not about narcissism at all. In that case, it's about being a symbol of what I believe in, being a symbol of self. My audience is SMALLER because of this decision. I'm not sure I can attribute this to enneagram.
    I think you're putting way too much focus on the narcissistic tendencies brought by a wing 3. It's only one of the facets and signs, you don't have to be self centered to be a 4w3, I'm not either.

    In fact, you being so preocupied in making it clear that you sing out of love for music and need for self expression makes ou all the more 4w3 to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    As for confidence - I have a weird mix of confidence and unconfidence. The dichotomy is definitely more suited to a 4w3 description. But I have seen confidence in "who I am" in other 4w5s irl, and I have seen 4w3s who are more self conscious about how others are viewing them, than I am. I'm really not … "confident" unless I have practiced something a lot. When i've been playing music since I was 4, and trained, I still have tremendous stage fright until the song starts. I shake back stage. I never feel prepared. It's only when the music kicks in that I 'lose myself." And the moment I have to talk to the audience I'm awkward and occasionally terrified.
    You're comparing yourself to others too much. You don't have to be exactly like the others 4w3's in everything to be the same type. Remember that two people of the same type in different stages of evolution and emotional maturity will respond differently to things.

    This is exactly how it is for me, the only difference being that I do enjoy riding the high after the show, but then again I'm a Social dom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I'm actually not a chameleon at all. I thought about this before, because of my profiles. My tendency is the opposite - to be TOO MUCH of myself, not adaptable enough. It's something I hate about myself and which pisses people off quite often.

    I am a Ne-Fi type. Ne dominance. The 3 facebook pages IS NOT about being a chameleon. It's about defining each side of me. It's about thoroughly exploring my internal conflicts, which side of me hates the other. Each personality on facebook is CAREFULLY defined, it represents something very real inside me. I do not "constantly come up with new identities." I came up with these three as a theme, to represent internal conflicts, more than a decade ago - and those three aspects of me, continue to represent the same aspects of me. They have been there really all my life, in one form or another. They don't "change" with the situation, nor do they "fit" some social scheme. There's actually nothing chameleon about it - it's an honest self-expression, as honest as I can possibly be, about the different facets which exist within myself, and within each person. None of them "blend in" to some situation, they all come in when they want to. Also, there is NOTHING about it that is designed to reach a goal. Aside from simply EXPRESSING myself. These personalities came out organically, naturally, in my self-expression, in my songs.. and then I embodied in photographs, what happened naturally, and made it into a social symbolism. I symbolise who I am, I symbolize what I stand for, I symbolize my understanding of my own psychology, and i represent it artistically and as a lifestyle choice. In real life, I don't change between persona. I'm always the same..always always always. The side of me that comes out in shows and photoshoots is of course, emphasized in that context because it is expressing something. I've been wearing white on stage since I was 10 years old. Nothing has changd; my sides and expressions are 'static' although they evolve honestly as I mature. There was nothing goal-oriented about doing this - the closest thing to a 'goal' was a social experiment, but I didn't think about it that way until later, because it evolved entirely naturally. I do politics on one page and music on the other, which is convenient in terms of not scaring fans, but really - It's not a business move. I just don't feel that music and politics SHOULD mix.
    And anyway, my fans can just as easily link to my other profile - which is quite obviously ME, and there I am expressing what I am expressing.

    The process LOOKS a certain way, but it really has nothing to do with being a chameleon or having a goal, outside of being very dedicated to the art of personal expression. In fact, it wasn't even a conscious decision. I signed up my male alter-ego first because I was uncomfortable being on facebook, but needed to contact someone about a roommate situation. I then added my other persona who was female (the politics one) because I was doing freelance work and I didn't want to have someone show up and see that I'm female when they talked to a male. The last one, in a white dress, I put it up because then I was playing shows, and people were trying to contact me about band stuff.. and it just made sense to have it up. The honest self expression was already there in photos, and I'd been doing photos of 'different sides of myself in opposition or tension' for a while - but putting it up to 'express it' ended up happening one at a time as a matter of convenience, and because "art is life and life is art." It was perhaps a unique way to express how I view myself, but it was not a plan or a goal.
    A 4w5 wouldn't care about others understanding their motivations or not, as long as they knew it'd be enough. They would probably secretly enjoy being misunderstood and write a bunch of songs about it too.

    "If you don't get me it's your problem and I don't care, except I do and it's injust so I'll write a hit about it so the world knows how I feel!".

    Agree about music and politics needing to stay in their respective universes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Yeah - the wing 5 idea, for me, is not based on intelligence or curiosity. Actually, the smartest woman I know is a core 3. Probably the most curious people I know are 6s, whereas 5s can be " just… go away.."

    I don't associate intelligence or curiosity with any enneagram type really. That is an issue extraneous to enneagram. Along with values. I think anyone can value anything, whereas enneagram is about compulsions. Anyone can have any IQ or talents, whereas enneagram is about defense patterns.

    I understand why you outline it though - because many people do make that mistake. I don't though.. I can't stand those stereotypes.
    BRAVO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I definitely use information toward goals, more than for security. That is, if recording my album/ writing my book/ making my art (with no particular plan in mind for selling it or distributing it) counts as "goals." But I'm not sure if it's that simple. In my experience, 6s find security in knowledge - because knowledge is a fixed system, something they can have faith in. The 5w4 who I am very close with, does not need "knowledge" to feel secure, per se. (He's a Ni dom) What he needs to feel secure is to have confidence in his own capability to navigate a situation. He needs to have confidence in his own potential, his own stamina. This, I relate to tremendously. I need to feel "prepared" to deal with something. I can be dauntless, reckless and spontaneous, but not where it matters. For instance I've had a crush on a guy - like, a devastating crush that I wrote a book about and many songs, and pined away over the course of 20 diaries - for seven years, and never told him, even though we were friends. This has been the course of my love life. I never showed anyone my writing until way later, and even my music, I was very private about showing it until I got into the habit. I was also encouraged by my parents, so whatever confidence I have, was aided..not innate.


    People keep harping on my confidence, and I won't deny having some confidence. But I don't think I'm as confident where it "counts" as people might presume, based on the boldness with which I express myself in words. I wrote my first book when I was 12, never showed anyone any of my writing or even spoke about it [except to one friend] until I was in my 20s, and at 33 I'm still rewriting and rewriting and rewriting and feeling shitty about my drafts and not releasing anything. I am still researching, collecting information, trying to understand enneagram and all my characters spirit animals to make sure I know enough.. etc. The reason I get up on stage and do music with confidence, is because as a kid, I practiced for up to 9 hours a day. I learned music theory, I took tons of lessons, I listened to tons of albums etc. I did not "innately" have confidence.

    The idea of having a 5 wing makes me nauseous and unhappy for various reasons because it points to my faults much more than 3. I think 3 - as a wing or a core - is my ideal self, and perhaps it is the values that I express on perc or here… About hard work and goals and pragmatics, and that "outlook is everything" and "be who you want to be" - but I'm not sure if it's my compulsions.


    Again I'm just throwing some thoughts out there - my current thinking. Maybe I'm completely off base here but its just what is on my mind at the moment. I realize I'm 4w3 ish and as of last week I thought that was a bigger possibility but now I am confused.

    A strong point in favor of 4w3 over 4w5, I think, is that I am more "outward" and bold in expression rather than detached and removed. I'm not "icy" like 4w5. My demeanor is more.. "attached" in the sense of being here/now , sometimes, though I can also be cerebral and in my own world. But that's probably any withdrawn core. WheN I pick apart the points, like 'confidence' and 'chameleon' and these things, I get mad at myself because I feel like I'm expressing myself wrongly and thus being misinterpreted. I guess Iv'e never had a reason to "explain" my facebook profiles before, but I know that it has nothing to do with being 'adaptable' or having a 'goal' and.. I've never had to tell people before, I'm bold, I'm confident, I'm not confident, I'm this, I'm that. It's like I'm scraping for data to even figure out whether "confident" or "unconfident" is an accurate descriptor.. facepalm.
    At the expense of sounding arrogant since I identified myself as 4w3 as early as yesterday, I think that after reading all you've written here (even the spoiler bit), I can say it really sounds like your real present self, not an aspiration.

    I think this is one of those situations (that we 4's are more than familiar with) where who we are it's clear to everybody except to ourselves and so we start questioning everything. I see pure 4w3, but you could have balanced wings. I think the chance of you being a 4w5 however, it's slim to none, so don't worry .

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    It's like I'm scraping for data to even figure out whether "confident" or "unconfident" is an accurate descriptor.. facepalm.
    Lol the facepalm stuff, that's a familiar thing for me, trying to find and refine what each word really means when describing myself. But it's better than slapping on labels without thinking

  3. #23
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Fwiw, sympathy vote from a fellow ENFP 4 double wing sx-so
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  4. #24
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Lol the facepalm stuff, that's a familiar thing for me, trying to find and refine what each word really means when describing myself. But it's better than slapping on labels without thinking
    Haha yeah. It's so weird "describing myself" in words instead of just "being myself." ?¿

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Fwiw, sympathy vote from a fellow ENFP 4 double wing sx-so
    Thanks for the sympathy. LOL.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Haha yeah. It's so weird "describing myself" in words instead of just "being myself." ?¿
    Exactly, by default things just work/happen without having to put them into words. Weird or not, this is an interesting challenge for sure...

  6. #26
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Look Alive_Sunshine View Post
    Yes, I'd call 4w3's "The Walking Contradiction" of the Enneagarm, which makes them hard to understand, specially for narrow minded people who are into 5 minutes typing.
    I am definitely a contradiction. That I will agree with. :P



    I think you're putting way too much focus on the narcissistic tendencies brought by a wing 3. It's only one of the facets and signs, you don't have to be self centered to be a 4w3, I'm not either.
    Oh - don't get me wrong. I do have narcissistic tendencies AND I am self-absorbed.

    I just don't want to slap a 3 label for that reason alone. I also have 7 and 8 fixes. I typed at 1 fix for a short while but thought it over. I've been typing as 8/8 fix for years and I think that was accurate and I confused myself recently.

    In fact, you being so preocupied in making it clear that you sing out of love for music and need for self expression makes ou all the more 4w3 to me.
    To be clear I'm only explaining it for the sake of a typing thread. Otherwise.. it kind of speaks for itself.

    On a typing thread there's no way to answer the questions/ get to the answer without explaining. Otherwise, outside that context (or a discussion of theory in which I am an example) I don't have to explain that I 'do it for the love' because.. if people think I do it to get rich or famous, so what? Unless they are attempting to type me, then I want to clear stuff like that up.

    You're comparing yourself to others too much. You don't have to be exactly like the others 4w3's in everything to be the same type. Remember that two people of the same type in different stages of evolution and emotional maturity will respond differently to things.

    This is exactly how it is for me, the only difference being that I do enjoy riding the high after the show, but then again I'm a Social dom.
    I feel high after a show too but I'd rather be alone with a hot guy.. or just alone .. maybe with a few close friends at most. The whole scene drives me nuts *scared face* I also hate crowds.


    A 4w5 wouldn't care about others understanding their motivations or not, as long as they knew it'd be enough. They would probably secretly enjoy being misunderstood and write a bunch of songs about it too.

    "If you don't get me it's your problem and I don't care, except I do and it's injust so I'll write a hit about it so the world knows how I feel!".
    This is actually how I am. Explaining my motivations is BECAUSE I am being typed.

    I don't really expect to be understood, nor do I usually "explain" (As I said in the spoiler) and most of my 'true feelings' about any topic go into my songs.

    The whole point of that 'spoiler' was that I HATE trying to explain myself on typing threads but it's the only way to do it. And actually - the exercise of trying to do that over the last two years here and on perc has helped me to become a better writer. = )

    That being said I DO explain myself, my deeper motives etc, to close friends. Just not usually to 'the public.' But between friends I like to actually communicate or at least attempt.

    Agree about music and politics needing to stay in their respective universes.
    Yeah, especially bcause the "message" in my music isn't political. It's a whole separate facet of me.


    BRAVO.
    I've been studying enneagram for many years. :P
    Studying how it applies to myself is a whole other issue though. I'm a trauma survivor so some things got mixed up internally.

    At the expense of sounding arrogant since I identified myself as 4w3 as early as yesterday, I think that after reading all you've written here (even the spoiler bit), I can say it really sounds like your real present self, not an aspiration.
    No not arrogant. I really appreciate all feedback from anyone, new to enneagram or not.

    Any impression helps. If something is said about me or a motive is "presumed" it forces me to put it into words to explain , which can only help to shed MORE clarity. It's really about gaining clarity about ourselves, not about the 'number' in the end. So any path we take toward clarity - whether it be arguing about a wing or a fix only to come back to the same conclusion as before, or realizing its another number… it's still clarity. So I appreciate all insight.

    I think this is one of those situations (that we 4's are more than familiar with) where who we are it's clear to everybody except to ourselves and so we start questioning everything. I see pure 4w3, but you could have balanced wings. I think the chance of you being a 4w5 however, it's slim to none, so don't worry .
    We shall see. >=]
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  7. #27
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Exactly, by default things just work/happen without having to put them into words. Weird or not, this is an interesting challenge for sure...
    I am writing a novel, and joining PerC and now TypoC (though I post here less) has helped me to learn to put sentiments into words. Attempting to explain something so elusive and biased as MYSELF… (LOL!) has only helped me to put into words, how my characters are perceiving themselves or other things. I've been trying to improve as a writer for years, and this exercise of self-explaining and typing out psychologically oriented thoughts on websites has been more helpful than writing classes I took in college - by a long shot. So I don't mind explaining, for that reason alone, even if later I come back and say "I misrepresented myself!!" .. it's all in the attempt. Also looking back on my self-perception from months or years ago, in writing, is interesting and helps me learn how I've grown etc. Self-awareness AND writing in one. Plus getting to meet other people who are doing the same thing.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  8. #28
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I am definitely a contradiction. That I will agree with. :P


    Oh - don't get me wrong. I do have narcissistic tendencies AND I am self-absorbed.

    I just don't want to slap a 3 label for that reason alone. I also have 7 and 8 fixes. I typed at 1 fix for a short while but thought it over. I've been typing as 8/8 fix for years and I think that was accurate and I confused myself recently.
    Honestly? You did sound both confused and conflicted through all this. I know because I had a phase like this just now, I actually had come to the conclusion I was an INTJ two months ago, but then started second guessing myself, which is how I got to the site. Just to realize I was right all along

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    To be clear I'm only explaining it for the sake of a typing thread. Otherwise.. it kind of speaks for itself.

    On a typing thread there's no way to answer the questions/ get to the answer without explaining. Otherwise, outside that context (or a discussion of theory in which I am an example) I don't have to explain that I 'do it for the love' because.. if people think I do it to get rich or famous, so what? Unless they are attempting to type me, then I want to clear stuff like that up.
    I have to say I’m really impressed in how much effort you put into explaining yourself. You wrote so much I had to edit your posts in order to quote them, and the post still ended up huge. Respect, I could never.

    I mean you reinterated the same thing like three times, you've got patience. Detailed explanations too, I would have seen that as justification and not bothered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    I feel high after a show too but I'd rather be alone with a hot guy.. or just alone .. maybe with a few close friends at most. The whole scene drives me nuts *scared face* I also hate crowds.
    It'd be hard if you ever made it big. Imagine all those people waiting on you when you got backstage


    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    This is actually how I am. Explaining my motivations is BECAUSE I am being typed.

    I don't really expect to be understood, nor do I usually "explain" (As I said in the spoiler) and most of my 'true feelings' about any topic go into my songs.

    The whole point of that 'spoiler' was that I HATE trying to explain myself on typing threads but it's the only way to do it. And actually - the exercise of trying to do that over the last two years here and on perc has helped me to become a better writer. = )
    I understand the purpose of explanation, what caught my eye was the lenghts you'd go for it. That and the particular points you stressed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    That being said I DO explain myself, my deeper motives etc, to close friends. Just not usually to 'the public.' But between friends I like to actually communicate or at least attempt.
    Explaining myself is something I really can't do. I find it aggravating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Any impression helps. If something is said about me or a motive is "presumed" it forces me to put it into words to explain , which can only help to shed MORE clarity. It's really about gaining clarity about ourselves, not about the 'number' in the end. So any path we take toward clarity - whether it be arguing about a wing or a fix only to come back to the same conclusion as before, or realizing its another number… it's still clarity. So I appreciate all insight.
    Yeah, the journey is most important.

  9. #29
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    @Look Alive_Sunshine

    I type faster than I think. It's not THAT much effort. :P
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  10. #30
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    @Look Alive_Sunshine

    I type faster than I think. It's not THAT much effort. :P
    My Goodness, my tongue and my fingers will never catch up with my brain!!!

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