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  1. #11
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Well I think everyone has both wings, you just favour one or the other! Some people are balanced, some people are really strongly one wing or the other. I lean pretty hards towards the 7 wing, for instance, but I still have my w5 moments.

    For the record, I find The Enneagram a bit TOO detailed with the subtypes, I think people overthink them. Tritypes, wings, instincts, it's a bit over the top.

  2. #12
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Well I think everyone has both wings, you just favour one or the other! Some people are balanced, some people are really strongly one wing or the other. I lean pretty hards towards the 7 wing, for instance, but I still have my w5 moments.

    For the record, I find The Enneagram a bit TOO detailed with the subtypes, I think people overthink them. Tritypes, wings, instincts, it's a bit over the top.
    You know, I am starting to agree. The journey is more important than the destination - enneagram is a tool. So it was useful to seek tritype and variants and wings to my tritype and mistypes. The whole journey helped me to grow. But having been on a long and deep journey, I am coming to realize that the only thing that is really, most deeply telling is SX4. In that sense, I think Naranjo had it right.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  3. #13
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Thanks for the vote =)

    Feel free to elaborate if you want? Or not.

    I am leaning heavily toward Sx/So.
    You've always vibed sx/so to me, and what I quoted of you is very sx/so. It goes along with the contra-flow/syn-flow idea, as well as the concept of sx/so types being more like gods while sx/sps are more like wandering ghosts. Sx/sps tend to lose themselves/merge with whatever or whomever obsesses them. But then they will grow dissatisfied when the charge doesn't last and move on to something else that they think will- hence the wandering. Sx/sp desires fusion. It seems to me like sx/so doesn't desire fusion so much as elevation. As a charismatic type, it's like there's so much energy and fire they rise to the skies, they can't stay on earth. And the only way they get back to earth is when the sun melts the wax on their wings and then they plummet. But then they'll soon find themselves ascending again. In other words, sx/so is like a constant rising and crashing, while sx/sp is more likely to submerge, return to the surface, and then horizontally move to somewhere else. I also think Naranjo's sexual four description is more sx/so than sx/sp, which is probably why you identify with it so much.

    As far as w3 vs w5 goes, I have known plenty of w3s who are intelligent and curious. The difference is that 5 is more about finding security in knowledge. 3 uses that information to achieve.

  4. #14
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    @brainheart

    Thanks for your reply. It's confusing because I am both ways. I will elaborate as soon as I have more time - thanks for the distinctions though, it gives me something to mull over. I know we talked about this on another thread too.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  5. #15
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    @Animal 4w3 Sx/So. So so much of what you said is 4w3, even some of what I think you felt was w5.

    The need to sing for your band, refusing to get anyone else when your voice goes. As a 4w5 I don't have that kind of self confidence, it sounds like 3 oral narcissism (not being negative, it's just a large part of 3). Your multiple FB profiles/pages is such a literal depiction of the 3 chameleon tendency, being who you need to be to reach your goal. This would of course be based more in your authentic self (because you are a core 4).

    I also agree with @Forever_Jung that we all have some of both adjacent types in us. I have a very heavy 5 wing, but every so often even I see a 3 "weak wing blip" as I call it. You on the other hand obviously have much more balanced wings, though I do feel that you lean more towards 3.
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  6. #16
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    @small.wonder

    No worries on 'being negative' - enneagram is all about those deeper tendencies. I don't see it as negative anyway. Any enneagram type - w5, w3, or anything else- is equally 'negative' or 'positive' - its just potential and what makes 'positivity' or 'negativity' is what you do with it, who you are, etc. (though I hate those terms because I see everything as a spectrum; every coin has two sides)

    It makes sense what you say. I will respond in full later but thank you for feedback =)
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  7. #17
    011235813
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    Dual wing.

    Why have one when you can have both? Anyway, you're so intensely 4, it doesn't even matter.

  8. #18
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Dual wing.

    Why have one when you can have both?
    Wing gluttony!

    Anyway, you're so intensely 4, it doesn't even matter.
    Haha.. I was thinking the same thing… for better or worse.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  9. #19
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    @Animal 4w3 Sx/So. So so much of what you said is 4w3, even some of what I think you felt was w5.
    I have been thinking the last few days.. and I really think there is a chance of 4w5. I am not saying this to convince anyone else but I just wanted to address some of these points bc I am curious your thoughts, and also I really appreciate the feedback because either way it makes me think.

    The need to sing for your band, refusing to get anyone else when your voice goes. As a 4w5 I don't have that kind of self confidence, it sounds like 3 oral narcissism (not being negative, it's just a large part of 3).
    Oral narcissism, hmm. The reason I need to sing is because thats who I am, what I love to do, who I have been all my life. Even as a child I used to sing alone to my tape recorder in the woods. It's not about being "front and center" - it's about expressing myself. While I will prepare for a show, I never play on command at parties - I never "entertain" offhandedly.. I am way too shy and uneasy about that, unless I'm prepared. Is that oral narcissism or just a love for singing, and delivering a message?

    Singing expresses the point that I truly believe - that triumph over adversity is more important than a perfect performance OR a marketable band. Triumph over adversity is a theme in my life because of the adversity I have faced. Singing in itself, is a triumph. If I don't have that message, I'm not being true to myself. As much as I'll admit having narcissistic tendencies, it's really not about narcissism at all. In that case, it's about being a symbol of what I believe in, being a symbol of self. My audience is SMALLER because of this decision. I'm not sure I can attribute this to enneagram.

    As for confidence - I have a weird mix of confidence and unconfidence. The dichotomy is definitely more suited to a 4w3 description. But I have seen confidence in "who I am" in other 4w5s irl, and I have seen 4w3s who are more self conscious about how others are viewing them, than I am. I'm really not … "confident" unless I have practiced something a lot. When i've been playing music since I was 4, and trained, I still have tremendous stage fright until the song starts. I shake back stage. I never feel prepared. It's only when the music kicks in that I 'lose myself." And the moment I have to talk to the audience I'm awkward and occasionally terrified.

    My band members and family are burdened with constantly giving me pep talks OR, I completely ignore everyone all day of the show. After the show, I just want to go home. I don't want complements or insults, I don't want to "be the star." All I want is to go home after I play.. not deal with people. But I have to because it's part of the job. I use my whispery voice as an excuse to avoid attention and talking to people after the show, and get out of there as quickly as possible. I DO NOT ENJOY being the center of attention unless I am on stage, channeling the music.

    It might seem I'm attention seeking but it's not that, it's just that I express my thoughts and feelings as honestly as I possibly can in my posts, and the more honest I am, the more extreme it is, becuase my emotions are on the extreme side. Also talking about myself makes me tense so maybe I go overboard. It's not something I do irl. Doing this on forum has been a huge exercise for me.

    When I was still mistyped at 8, I wrote on a typing thread about this problem, which I think is the most honest thing I've written about how I function, in this sense. I'll put it here, no pressure to read it of course, as it is long, but its the bst way I can address this issue.





    Your multiple FB profiles/pages is such a literal depiction of the 3 chameleon tendency, being who you need to be to reach your goal. This would of course be based more in your authentic self (because you are a core 4).
    I'm actually not a chameleon at all. I thought about this before, because of my profiles. My tendency is the opposite - to be TOO MUCH of myself, not adaptable enough. It's something I hate about myself and which pisses people off quite often.

    I am a Ne-Fi type. Ne dominance. The 3 facebook pages IS NOT about being a chameleon. It's about defining each side of me. It's about thoroughly exploring my internal conflicts, which side of me hates the other. Each personality on facebook is CAREFULLY defined, it represents something very real inside me. I do not "constantly come up with new identities." I came up with these three as a theme, to represent internal conflicts, more than a decade ago - and those three aspects of me, continue to represent the same aspects of me. They have been there really all my life, in one form or another. They don't "change" with the situation, nor do they "fit" some social scheme. There's actually nothing chameleon about it - it's an honest self-expression, as honest as I can possibly be, about the different facets which exist within myself, and within each person. None of them "blend in" to some situation, they all come in when they want to. Also, there is NOTHING about it that is designed to reach a goal. Aside from simply EXPRESSING myself. These personalities came out organically, naturally, in my self-expression, in my songs.. and then I embodied in photographs, what happened naturally, and made it into a social symbolism. I symbolise who I am, I symbolize what I stand for, I symbolize my understanding of my own psychology, and i represent it artistically and as a lifestyle choice. In real life, I don't change between persona. I'm always the same..always always always. The side of me that comes out in shows and photoshoots is of course, emphasized in that context because it is expressing something. I've been wearing white on stage since I was 10 years old. Nothing has changd; my sides and expressions are 'static' although they evolve honestly as I mature. There was nothing goal-oriented about doing this - the closest thing to a 'goal' was a social experiment, but I didn't think about it that way until later, because it evolved entirely naturally. I do politics on one page and music on the other, which is convenient in terms of not scaring fans, but really - It's not a business move. I just don't feel that music and politics SHOULD mix. And anyway, my fans can just as easily link to my other profile - which is quite obviously ME, and there I am expressing what I am expressing.

    The process LOOKS a certain way, but it really has nothing to do with being a chameleon or having a goal, outside of being very dedicated to the art of personal expression. In fact, it wasn't even a conscious decision. I signed up my male alter-ego first because I was uncomfortable being on facebook, but needed to contact someone about a roommate situation. I then added my other persona who was female (the politics one) because I was doing freelance work and I didn't want to have someone show up and see that I'm female when they talked to a male. The last one, in a white dress, I put it up because then I was playing shows, and people were trying to contact me about band stuff.. and it just made sense to have it up. The honest self expression was already there in photos, and I'd been doing photos of 'different sides of myself in opposition or tension' for a while - but putting it up to 'express it' ended up happening one at a time as a matter of convenience, and because "art is life and life is art." It was perhaps a unique way to express how I view myself, but it was not a plan or a goal.

    I wanted to clarify this -
    I have no ego tied into being 4w5. If anything my more "ideal" version of myself is 4w3. So I am not saying this because I want to 'sell' wing 5, but simply because the understanding that people often jump to - chameleon - is not accurate. I understand why you say it and it's perfectly intelligent conclusion given the data, but it is just not really how it manifests at all, so I wanted to clear that up.

    It is a much more honest self expression and intellectual process. My parents are both psychiatrists and I spend much time reading and thinking about different and conflicting aspects of the human psyche, anima vs. animus, spirit animals, etc. I then express myself as such, symbolically. But outside facebook, I am in the same sweatshirt wearing, jeans wearing, messy-hair no makeup and flats… every day. That is, if I leave the house at all, which I have barely done in two years. I have maybe left the house to socialize , ten total times in the entirety of 2013, all of them being because friends drove to my house from far away and insisted. Since my voice has been gone again for almost three years, I have not put on makeup during that time period except once when I went to Ren Faire.

    I also agree with @Forever_Jung that we all have some of both adjacent types in us. I have a very heavy 5 wing, but every so often even I see a 3 "weak wing blip" as I call it. You on the other hand obviously have much more balanced wings, though I do feel that you lean more towards 3.
    Definitely more balanced than yours though, but you also have a 5 fix.

    It's more confusing because - what would ENFP 4w5 look like?
    Also, I am realizing I was right in the first place - I think I'm 478 instead of 471. Not entirely sure there though,
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  10. #20
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    As far as w3 vs w5 goes, I have known plenty of w3s who are intelligent and curious. The difference is that 5 is more about finding security in knowledge. 3 uses that information to achieve.
    Yeah - the wing 5 idea, for me, is not based on intelligence or curiosity. Actually, the smartest woman I know is a core 3. Probably the most curious people I know are 6s, whereas 5s can be " just… go away.."

    I don't associate intelligence or curiosity with any enneagram type really. That is an issue extraneous to enneagram. Along with values. I think anyone can value anything, whereas enneagram is about compulsions. Anyone can have any IQ or talents, whereas enneagram is about defense patterns.

    I understand why you outline it though - because many people do make that mistake. I don't though.. I can't stand those stereotypes.

    I definitely use information toward goals, more than for security. That is, if recording my album/ writing my book/ making my art (with no particular plan in mind for selling it or distributing it) counts as "goals." But I'm not sure if it's that simple. In my experience, 6s find security in knowledge - because knowledge is a fixed system, something they can have faith in. The 5w4 who I am very close with, does not need "knowledge" to feel secure, per se. (He's a Ni dom) What he needs to feel secure is to have confidence in his own capability to navigate a situation. He needs to have confidence in his own potential, his own stamina. This, I relate to tremendously. I need to feel "prepared" to deal with something. I can be dauntless, reckless and spontaneous, but not where it matters. For instance I've had a crush on a guy - like, a devastating crush that I wrote a book about and many songs, and pined away over the course of 20 diaries - for seven years, and never told him, even though we were friends. This has been the course of my love life. I never showed anyone my writing until way later, and even my music, I was very private about showing it until I got into the habit. I was also encouraged by my parents, so whatever confidence I have, was aided..not innate.


    People keep harping on my confidence, and I won't deny having some confidence. But I don't think I'm as confident where it "counts" as people might presume, based on the boldness with which I express myself in words. I wrote my first book when I was 12, never showed anyone any of my writing or even spoke about it [except to one friend] until I was in my 20s, and at 33 I'm still rewriting and rewriting and rewriting and feeling shitty about my drafts and not releasing anything. I am still researching, collecting information, trying to understand enneagram and all my characters spirit animals to make sure I know enough.. etc. The reason I get up on stage and do music with confidence, is because as a kid, I practiced for up to 9 hours a day. I learned music theory, I took tons of lessons, I listened to tons of albums etc. I did not "innately" have confidence.

    The idea of having a 5 wing makes me nauseous and unhappy for various reasons because it points to my faults much more than 3. I think 3 - as a wing or a core - is my ideal self, and perhaps it is the values that I express on perc or here… About hard work and goals and pragmatics, and that "outlook is everything" and "be who you want to be" - but I'm not sure if it's my compulsions.


    Again I'm just throwing some thoughts out there - my current thinking. Maybe I'm completely off base here but its just what is on my mind at the moment. I realize I'm 4w3 ish and as of last week I thought that was a bigger possibility but now I am confused.

    A strong point in favor of 4w3 over 4w5, I think, is that I am more "outward" and bold in expression rather than detached and removed. I'm not "icy" like 4w5. My demeanor is more.. "attached" in the sense of being here/now , sometimes, though I can also be cerebral and in my own world. But that's probably any withdrawn core. WheN I pick apart the points, like 'confidence' and 'chameleon' and these things, I get mad at myself because I feel like I'm expressing myself wrongly and thus being misinterpreted. I guess Iv'e never had a reason to "explain" my facebook profiles before, but I know that it has nothing to do with being 'adaptable' or having a 'goal' and.. I've never had to tell people before, I'm bold, I'm confident, I'm not confident, I'm this, I'm that. It's like I'm scraping for data to even figure out whether "confident" or "unconfident" is an accurate descriptor.. facepalm.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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