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  1. #71
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    At the above - how do we know you've typed him correctly? It's like referencing a book I wrote to justify my own assertions.
    Well, to be honest, the most efficient and effective way to type someone other than this method has generally been postulated to be the determination of the individual's inferior function, as the dominant and auxiliary functions can be as strong as each other.

    If we were to completely appeal to empirical evidence, we would have to get the individual a brain scan by the guy who made this fine questionnaire, Dario Nardi, who has conducted experiments to link Jung's cognitive functions to centers of the brain.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Well yes, extroverted perception is often given the archetype of the entrepreneur, finding profit in every possibility and exploiting possibilities, but what I am primarily elucidating is possibility selection, which would encompass the Ne-Ji mechanism as a whole. In this mechanism, extroverted intuition generates several different possibilities to solve a problem, and the Ji function refines those possibilities and carefully analyzes them to determine the optimum route based on what makes ethical or logical sense, essentially simulating the opposite attitude, introverted intuition, with possibility convergence rather than possibility expansion.
    As a purely functional model of operation, yes.

    But presuming one with the ability to simply conjure possibility as an Ne type would preclude every other type that is not an extraverted intuitor as having a sort of inferior sort of form for generating ideas, which clearly is not the case, given the fact that thinking doms regularly express these traits and Jung typed Socrates a sense-dom (I don't know where to fit in you feelers, though I'm sure you're there).

    So, what is extraverted intuition if not the ability to entertain multiple possibilities given one set of data? It is the incessant drive to produce within from without, the way flames consume all which burns.

  3. #73
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    As a purely functional model of operation, yes.

    But presuming one with the ability to simply conjure possibility as an Ne type would preclude every other type that is not an extraverted intuitor as having a sort of inferior sort of form for generating ideas, which clearly is not the case, given the fact that thinking doms regularly express these traits and Jung typed Socrates a sense-dom (I don't know where to fit in you feelers, though I'm sure you're there).

    So, what is extraverted intuition if not the ability to entertain multiple possibilities given one set of data? It is the incessant drive to produce within from without, the way flames consume all which burns.
    Well now we must entertain the dichotomy of extroverted perception and its entrepreneur-like qualities (due to the fact that you have raised the question of thinking leads generating ideas as well).

    With Se, we see the capitalization of momentary gains, the immediate and tangible rewards that can be reaped, which fuels the introverted judging function's (and since we are limiting our scope to Thinking, Ti) need to categorize and define what extroverted perception brings to it.

    With Ne, we see the capitalization of possibilities before they become immediately apparent to the extroverted sensor (which also means that the extroverted intuitive will be less apt in capitalizing on gains that are right in front of them), which also fuels introverted thinking's need to categorize and define what extroverted perception brings to it.

    To address the probable argument of Te, Te is the vocalization of thoughts and the organization of the environment, which is then aided by the introverted perception function to realize potential or details that would be beneficial to the extroverted thinker's goals that are in the extroverted thinker's environment, which he is subsequently organizing to allow introverted perception to disseminate the information easily.

    The problem herein lies with your static view of the system, that the functions act independently, when in fact, they operate in mechanisms and cannot exist healthily without each other. Perception provides the Thinking function with things to ponder, and every type has a judging and perceiving function in the dominant and auxiliary slot.

    The 8 function model provides a better insight into the ability to conjure possibilities (as you put it), and even though it does not provide an absolute determination at who is the best conjurer of possibilities, it provides a baseline model that postulates which types have an immediate advantage over others in specific fields. While ENTPs are naturally predisposed to conjuring ideas and capitalizing on them due to the fact that their most powerful function is extroverted intuition, the INTJ has easy access to this function as well in the Opposing Personality Complex slot (shadow dominant), but chooses not to use it due to the fact that it is typically seen as tedious and boring (the basis of the id block in Socionics). We also must consider the individual aspect, that some individuals are naturally better at things than others. Where an INTJ leads with introverted intuition and therefore has a probability advantage over, say, an ISTP who has Ni in the tertiary slot, this particular ISTP could be developed enough and have another natural advantage that makes that particular ISTP's tertiary Ni much more developed and powerful than an unhealthy or average INTJ and can put it to more good use than the INTJ can.

    Whereas you are looking at the system as one that defines clearly who is better at what, I'm looking at it as a broad guideline at who is probably better at a certain task than others.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Look Alive_Sunshine View Post
    BTW, do you think the SLOAN test has any real correlation to MBTI? I just took one and is scarilly accurate.
    What's your SLOAN result?

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    My "guess" is ISTP... Your enneagram typing doesn't align with this MBTI type though I guess...
    why can't ISTP be 8?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Also, while people associate Enneagram 8 with extroverted thinking and extroverted sensing, the traditional Enneagram 8 was associated with extroverted intuition (I think Naranjo detailed this?).
    Naranjo associated 8 with Se.

    It's Enneagram Institute (Riso/Hudson) that associates it with Ne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    There is a reason Jung said Ne-doms seemed to be "bound by throngs of fate", a stone cast. Exactly contrary to your assertion, they are far closer in tune with a singular existence than multiple existences, they are "bound" by the intuitions they perceive, placing utmost importance on them.

    You can even see the escalation of importance by turning over the foundations that function theory rest on: sense is the contact of objects, thought defines objects, feeling values objects, intuition "perceives from whence an object came and to where it is going", or put simply - idealization of objects.

    This is why Jung typed the greatest divergent thinker of all time, 'the man who knew nothing' Socrates, a sense-dom. He repressed man's intuitions to the extreme in favor of a near-infinite scope of plausibility, giving rise one of the most effective critical thinking tools of all time.
    Sorry to ask but what do you mean by "near-infinite scope of plausibility"? Is this some Sensing thingie?

    Are Jung's Ni-doms not feeling "fate" like Ne-doms do?


    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Something like fate, in a sense that extraverted intuitive types latch strongly onto perceived ideals. Yes.
    Again, can you contrast Jung's Ni with this? And Jungian Se?

    Thanks.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    Naranjo associated 8 with Se.

    It's Enneagram Institute (Riso/Hudson) that associates it with Ne.
    Thank you for clarifying, I knew I heard that from some Enneagram authority.

  9. #79
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinity- View Post
    why can't ISTP be 8?
    8's are extraverts I believe...

    Introverted thinkers are more like 5's or 6's?

    6w7 gives ISTP whereas 6w5 IxTJ?

  10. #80
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    But "leaps of judgement" is what Ni is really about...
    Don't hate Ni-ers when they do that... Try asking them questions for clarification... Thru that, Ni-ers can reverse engineer their conclusions...and identify whether they hold water or not...
    yes, they have a natural tendency to do that, but it's still a problem that they should get under control (that's part of what typology is about: realizing your natural tendencies and how they may sometimes not be the best way to think, behave or handle a situation)
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