My Temperament?

[EJCC]

Tests and "vibe" typings have gotten me nowhere -- I've been typed as everything but Supine. [MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION] provided me with a link in another thread to some more detailed/subdivided temperament descriptions, and based on those (and some other stuff I casually looked at online)...

Inclusion: Choleric would sound right -- I definitely have a "box" for my social interactions, and very specific functions that those interactions serve -- except that I wouldn't call myself cruel, abusive, or manipulative. At all. My flaws lie elsewhere.
Control: Definitely, definitely Melancholic.
Affection: Phlegmatic seemed the most accurate, re: flexibility and re: using detachment and humor as coping mechanisms, although it doesn't account for my people-pleasing streak. Not sure at all about this one though.

But what does that make me generally? One of these has to win out -- or at least, two of them, ranked. But which, and how do I tell?

Not sure what other details to put in here, but feel free to ask me as many questions as you need, to get a good picture.

[MENTION=4515]wolfy[/MENTION] / [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] (following up on that other thread)
[MENTION=5578]garbage[/MENTION]
[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] maybe?
@whoever else

 

[EJCC]

Thoughts? :/

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Colicky and phlegmy, but in your element supine.

 

[EJCC]

Colicky and phlegmy, but in your element supine.

Could you elaborate a bit? Why did you choose those three, in that order?

 

[Cygnus]

Permission to speak candidly, sir...

I've said this before, but there's no way the ESFJ is Sanguine-Melancholic and the ESTP is Choleric-Sanguine. If you look at just their core temperaments, that would make ESFJ Sanguine and ESTP Choleric.
It would also make sense to make ESTJ pure Choleric and ENTJ Choleric-Melancholic, if this makes any sense. ESTJ anger blows up in your face like a hair-trigger. I know Cholerics are supposed to "bottle up" their anger, but a Melancholic secondary type would bottle it up only more so, if this makes any sense.

I mean, look at the thing. SJ is Melancholic and NT is Choleric? I beg to differ. At least switch THOSE TWO. It's so obvious.

In fact, the SP-SJ-NF-NT dichotomy is completely arbitrary. SP-SJ each denote one cognitive function; NF-NT denote two and say nothing of their position.

If motivations are taken into account, it should be FP-FJ-TP-TJ.

If working style is taken into account, it's EP-EJ-IP-IJ.

If interaction style more or less, it's SF-ST-NF-NT for Sang, Chol, Phleg, and Mel respectively.

That would make ESTJ pure Choleric, which it most certainly is, and ENTJ Choleric-Melancholic.

ENFP and ENFJ are unchanged.

ISTJ is now Melancholic-Choleric, most likely of all types to die of heart attack. And INTJ is suitably Pure Melancholic.

ESFJ would be Choleric-Sanguine to contrast w/ ENFJ's Choleric-Phelgmatic. and ESTP is Sanguine Choleric, makes much more sense than Choleric-Sanguine if you look at their lifestyles.

thoughts?

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=20944]Nihilogen[/MENTION]

If the relationship between MBTI and temperament was that clear, I wouldn't have made this thread. I see myself as far too subdued and controlled* to be pure Choleric or Choleric-Melancholy.

*Focused significantly more on controlling myself, than others -- contrary to every Choleric description I've ever read

 

[Cygnus]

[MENTION=20944]Nihilogen[/MENTION]

If the relationship between MBTI and temperament was that clear, I wouldn't have made this thread. I see myself as far too subdued and controlled* to be pure Choleric or Choleric-Melancholy.

*Focused significantly more on controlling myself, than others -- contrary to every Choleric description I've ever read

Not to argue with the ESTJ, but if you notice a trait in yourself ("as a matter of fact, I am very controlled!") chances are you're unaware that the opposite of this trait is strong in you.

I did the same thing. "I can't be an ESFP! I'm not sucking the fun out of life!" Yeah, but that's the way I act. I'm laughing like a hyena in school. I'm the class clown. I love psychedelic videos, aka Se.

And the Melancholic is focused on mental, not rule-abiding like the SJs. The only reason NT was picked for Choleric was determination.
And technically any type can be a leader in some field. Sanguines lead the people by rallying them together, Melancholics work quietly behind the scenes to plan and administer.

Also, oddly enough, the more modern descriptions of Cholerics actually says they're in control of their emotions, aka subdued. The "anger" is replaced by a "rudeness" or inadvertent forcefulness attributed to Te.

 

[gromit]

Your temperament... hm... I'd say sassy-sweet...

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=20944]Nihilogen[/MENTION]

A lot of Choleric traits are traits that I associate with type 8. Those traits have always been the part of ESTJ type descriptions that I related least to. Had always chalked it up to a mixing of systems (ESTJ 8 and not any other ESTJ). I'm just not domineering, manipulative, or controlling. Ask anyone -- even people who hate me.

As for the rest: X does not always equal Y, people don't always fit into those boxes perfectly. Better not to leap to the conclusion that you know a person better than they know themselves, just because of those boxes. You don't know me well, but if/when you read more of my forum posts, you should see that I don't act terribly Choleric. (I might still be, but if I am, it's a VERY weak preference.) Compare my posts to those of the forum's various ExTJ Eights and you'll see a sharp contrast.

Your temperament... hm... I'd say sassy-sweet...

 

[Cygnus]

[MENTION=20944]Nihilogen[/MENTION]

A lot of Choleric traits are traits that I associate with type 8. Those traits have always been the part of ESTJ type descriptions that I related least to. Had always chalked it up to a mixing of systems (ESTJ 8 and not any other ESTJ). I'm just not domineering, manipulative, or controlling. Ask anyone -- even people who hate me.

That's not vindictive of enneagram or temperament. You're just mentally healthy.

 

[HongDou]

Yeah, not trying to butt in or sound like a bitch but I don't think diagnosing [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]'s temperament based on how you think the 16 types fit into the temperaments as a whole. I don't think being one type in MBTI (in this case, ESTJ) necessarily proves that you're a certain temperament (in this case, pure Choleric) in the Four Humors.

Thoughts? :/

You know, I feel like I have a lot of people I need to apologize to for being inattentive lately. I see my name being mentioned in places but I just can't work up the effort to reply properly a lot of the time. Don't know what's caught me right now but I'd just like to say it's nothing personal, I'm just a lazy bum. Sorry to leave some of you guys hanging! I know [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] is one of them. I don't mean to mistreat you.

Anyway, I can see why you'd think you'd be Choleric (any ETJ would really ). I'm not too well-immersed in this theory so don't take what I say too seriously but the only Choleric traits I seem to see in you are being task-oriented, ambitious, leader-like, and respectable. But, from my personal experience with you, the qualities of yours that seem most prominent to me are being calm, patient, peaceful (you know, that whole soft and welcoming vibe that comes with being so/sx like [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]), and reasonable. I'm friends with an ESFJ 1w2 sx/so who's probably Choleric-Sanguine and she's much more quicker to snap on you, more impatient, and definitely less peaceful - she really has little regard for her own sense of peace. Comparing you two, I definitely see more Phlegmatic in you.

Again, not very well-researched on this theory besides the basics so that's my view.

But I think it's nice to note that I think confusion between Choleric (hot and dry) and Phlegmatic (cold and wet) would probably be a good thing, because it could indicate balance in yourself as an individual. I think that was kind of the goals of this whole thing right? To try to not be exclusive to hot/cold or wet/dry and find balance in yourself (and your diet, I think - I got more info on this from my History & Culture of Food class).

I'm totally Sanguine it's not even funny.

 

[wolfy]

Thoughts? :/

It is hard. I am not that familiar with the system and it seems pretty vague. Choleric/melancholic. I see melancholic more. A sprinkling of sanguine. A liberal sprinkling. Phlegmatic? You have a kind of coolness, but it isn't aloof like a phlegmatic.

Bounce something back.

 

[Cygnus]

Yeah, not trying to butt in or sound like a bitch but I don't think diagnosing [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]'s temperament based on how you think the 16 types fit into the temperaments as a whole. I don't think being one type in MBTI (in this case, ESTJ) necessarily proves that you're a certain temperament (in this case, pure Choleric) in the Four Humors.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was, the traditional SP-SJ-NF-NT dichotomy is flawed. An individual ESTJ could be a Phlegmatic-Sanguine, but ESTJs as a whole are pure Choleric. INTJs are totally Melancholic. And there's nothing Choleric about NT.

 

[wolfy]

Your temperament... hm... I'd say sassy-sweet...

lol +1

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION]

No problem at all!

Thanks for your input -- all of that makes sense and resonates with me. Makes me empathize with people who have a really hard time choosing an MBTI type -- I see myself in every temperament. I think I'd have buyers remorse with anything I chose!

It is hard. I am not that familiar with the system and it seems pretty vague. Choleric/melancholic. I see melancholic more. A sprinkling of sanguine. A liberal sprinkling. Phlegmatic? You have a kind of coolness, but it isn't aloof like a phlegmatic.

Bounce something back.

Thanks for your input! Here's my attempt to bounce something back:

1) Choleric I relate to pretty much where it overlaps with being a Te-dom, but I'm not domineering and I don't need to control everyone/be their boss. I care too much about things being done right, to put myself in leadership positions I'm not qualified for.
2) I relate to Melancholy in part because of my above reasoning. A lot of it sounds like type 1. There are a lot of Melancholy/Choleric things I relate to. I relate 100% to Melancholy in Control.
3) I relate to Sanguine in ways that overlap with having a 7 trifix and being heavily 7 integrated (postive, friendly, optimistic)
4) I relate to the coolness and easygoing nature of Phlegmatic, but I think I react more to things. I'm easily irritated, and I don't always respond well to criticism. (Plus: people-pleaser.)
5) No idea about Supine.

That's not what I meant. What I meant was, the traditional SP-SJ-NF-NT dichotomy is flawed. An individual ESTJ could be a Phlegmatic-Sanguine, but ESTJs as a whole are pure Choleric. INTJs are totally Melancholic. And there's nothing Choleric about NT.

So you're trying to fit the MBTI types into the temperament boxes?

I agree -- your style here is problematic. Each system addresses different things-- I'd say the systems interact like a Venn diagram.

 

[wolfy]

1) Choleric I relate to pretty much where it overlaps with being a Te-dom, but I'm not domineering and I don't need to control everyone/be their boss. I care too much about things being done right, to put myself in leadership positions I'm not qualified for.
2) I relate to Melancholy in part because of my above reasoning. A lot of it sounds like type 1. There are a lot of Melancholy/Choleric things I relate to. I relate 100% to Melancholy in Control.
3) I relate to Sanguine in ways that overlap with having a 7 trifix and being heavily 7 integrated (postive, friendly, optimistic)
4) I relate to the coolness and easygoing nature of Phlegmatic, but I think I react more to things. I'm easily irritated, and I don't always respond well to criticism. (Plus: people-pleaser.)
5) No idea about Supine.

I don't see Supine.
You need to be more aloof to be phlegmatic I think.
I type myself as SanPhleg or PhlegSan for reference. I can't remember which.
You are not sanguine. You are not phlegmatic.
You are not me.
Therefore you must be some combination of Choleric and Melancholic.
Within the limits of this system.
All systems have their limitations.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Could you elaborate a bit? Why did you choose those three, in that order?

Your are sick a lot, you have allergies that would likely cause phlegm, and you seem to like to be on your back.

 

[EJCC]

I don't see Supine.
You need to be more aloof to be phlegmatic I think.
I type myself as SanPhleg or PhlegSan for reference. I can't remember which.
You are not sanguine. You are not phlegmatic.
You are not me.
Therefore you must be some combination of Choleric and Melancholic.
Within the limits of this system.
All systems have their limitations.

Makes sense. Maybe I'm just a really, really balanced Melancholic/Choleric

Your are sick a lot, you have allergies that would likely cause phlegm, and you seem to like to be on your back.

Helpful. Thank you.

 

[garbage]

Always seemed Sanguine-ish (though not pure) to me, but I don't really know anything

 

[Cygnus]

[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION]
So you're trying to fit the MBTI types into the temperament boxes?

I agree -- your style here is problematic. Each system addresses different things-- I'd say the systems interact like a Venn diagram.

"Inclusion," "Control" and "Affection" are all terms you'd see in the SP-SJ-NF-NT nomenclature for putting primary temperaments (ESF/ENP-EST/ENJ-ISF/INP-IST/INJ) and secondaries (SP-SJ-NF-NT) into temperaments.

And if you look at the history of the four humors, "Choleric" and "Melancholic" used to just mean you were neurotic, hence the "domineering" and "manipulative" you don't identify with.