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Am I a 4 or a 6?

Starry

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May 22, 2010
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Yes,you make a compelling point there.

I usually test INTP most often,but I sometimes do test INFP.I don't think so,as I have a strong preference for Fi(therefore a poor preference for Fe),a moderate preference for Ne over Se,Poor Si,Poor Ni,Mild Ti,and Poor Te.

I don't think it was very apparent in this particular thread but in some others as well as internally I am.

Okay umm...the reason I came into this thread...in the way that I did (if I had to choose one word to describe myself it would probably be *endearing* <-don't you think? I'm thinking that's probably how you...)

I'm not getting 4 or 6 from you really. I'm wondering what you think of the e9 core fears/issues? 9w1...have you considered this etype before?
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
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Here's my usual (reductive) take on how to determine which you are:

You're a 4 if you can strongly identify with the most negative aspects of the description; you're a 6 if you can strongly identify with the most positive aspects of the description.

People want to be 4s because the more romantic aspects are appealing, and therefore distracting; but I think if you can look at the brutal descriptions and think, "oh god, that's horrible but so true", it's more telling. I suppose an actual 4 isn't as distracted by the flattering attributes and can look at the dark side of themselves with honesty and interest than other types.

I think the opposite is true with 6s because the descriptions tend to be kinda bland and/or negative, so much so even 6s feel put off by them. Who wants to be labelled neurotic? I also think that the phobic qualities of 6s are rarely overt, and/or 6s aren't as keenly aware of them. I think 6s need to start by looking at the other stuff that makes up the type first before delving into those qualities.

I haven't seen a particularly good 6 description to use as an example, but if the OP is considering 4w5, look at this one:

Typewatch Enneagram - 4w5 said:
4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.
 
L

LadyLazarus

Guest
Okay umm...the reason I came into this thread...in the way that I did (if I had to choose one word to describe myself it would probably be *endearing* <-don't you think? I'm thinking that's probably how you...)

I'm not getting 4 or 6 from you really. I'm wondering what you think of the e9 core fears/issues? 9w1...have you considered this etype before?

Um,yeah sure I suppose so,I don't know enough about you to judge in all actuality.

If 6w7's are supposed to be endearing as well,then yes,you're right,I am not a 6w7.

Haha no sorry I don't think I am a nine at all.I live with a 9w1 and it frankly irks me when she tries to placate me in the middle of an argument,but she is a very gentle and sweet person;basically everything I could never truly be.When, I feel at my best I can be gentle in my own way too but most of the time,no.
I don't care about inner peace,I don't withdraw from conflict like 9's do,I am not afraid of becoming fragmented.
I also don't relate to their integration point of 3.
Overall,I don't relate to 9 at all.How/where did you see 9??If there's one thing I know for certain it is this: I am not a core 2,3,9,1,or 8.

Not to say I am adverse to 9 in any way shape or form,I have no particularly strong feelings about the type at all,I just can't say I relate.
 
L

LadyLazarus

Guest
Here's my usual (reductive) take on how to determine which you are:

You're a 4 if you can strongly identify with the most negative aspects of the description; you're a 6 if you can strongly identify with the most positive aspects of the description.

People want to be 4s because the more romantic aspects are appealing, and therefore distracting; but I think if you can look at the brutal descriptions and think, "oh god, that's horrible but so true", it's more telling. I suppose an actual 4 isn't as distracted by the flattering attributes and can look at the dark side of themselves with honesty and interest than other types.

I think the opposite is true with 6s because the descriptions tend to be kinda bland and/or negative, so much so even 6s feel put off by them. Who wants to be labelled neurotic? I also think that the phobic qualities of 6s are rarely overt, and/or 6s aren't as keenly aware of them. I think 6s need to start by looking at the other stuff that makes up the type first before delving into those qualities.

I haven't seen a particularly good 6 description to use as an example, but if the OP is considering 4w5, look at this one:

Interesting...thank you.
 

Starry

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Um,yeah sure I suppose so,I don't know enough about you to judge in all actuality.

If 6w7's are supposed to be endearing as well,then yes,you're right,I am not a 6w7.

Haha no sorry I don't think I am a nine at all.I live with a 9w1 and it frankly irks me when she tries to placate me in the middle of an argument,but she is a very gentle and sweet person;basically everything I could never truly be.When, I feel at my best I can be gentle in my own way too but most of the time,no.
I don't care about inner peace,I don't withdraw from conflict like 9's do,I am not afraid of becoming fragmented.
I also don't relate to their integration point of 3.
Overall,I don't relate to 9 at all.How/where did you see 9??If there's one thing I know for certain it is this: I am not a core 2,3,9,1,or 8.

Not to say I am adverse to 9 in any way shape or form,I have no particularly strong feelings about the type at all,I just can't say I relate.


You seem to be working with what I would consider to be a very FJ description of e9. FP e9s can definitely show flashes of aggression when they are or become especially attached to some value/cause (and if not aggression then 'endurance' to see a certain value upheld)...and e9 sx even more so.

But...I'm not going to force anything on you. You seem like you know what you're doing. Have a great evening.
 
L

LadyLazarus

Guest
You seem to be working with what I would consider to be a very FJ description of e9. FP e9s can definitely show flashes of aggression when they are or become especially attached to some value/cause (and if not aggression then 'endurance' to see a certain value upheld)...and e9 sx even more so.

But...I'm not going to force anything on you. You seem like you know what you're doing. Have a great evening.

Regardless,I don't relate to their integration point or their fears...

Yes,I appreciate your opinion despite my disagreement.Likewise.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I've always had these feelings,from a very young age I've felt like there was something fundamentally wrong with me,it actually had nothing to do with how others treated me,in fact I've always believed I've brought all the bullying and teasing that's happened in my life upon myself,I didn't know how to cope with my strangeness, so I let it all seep through the cracks,and of course then everyone noticed how easy of a target I was after that. I've noticed now that I keep my distance and hide my self-pity from others,people have left me alone.

I read that in some description of them.
This speaks to core 4 then. You've always had the perception of being "different" somehow; it's part of your core psychology.

If you were a 4-fixed 6, I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on from being bullied, but 6s are more geared to either rebelling to distinguish themselves from the masses, or simply noticing how they deviate and trying to eradicate that.

My relationship with my emotions,is very good I believe;I always know what I am feeling,I embrace them,and I am very good about expressing them.All in all,I think I have a pretty healthy relationship with my emotions,I've always been able to understand them very well,I'm always aware of them, and feel them very deeply.Although the latter has caused me a lot of distress.
Definitely 4--you've got huge levels of self-awareness. Another type with a significant 4-fix can be similarly self aware; I think the difference is that 4s tend to identify with their emotional states more than the other types. (Ring any bells?)

Yes, exactly. 6s lack trust in personal, internal stability, and so we seek it everywhere else - but can find it nowhere, because we're not stabilized within ourselves. We don't trust ourselves to know it when we see it.

Oh man, this is the story of my life.

Thanks.
You're welcome guys. This is something that is often overlooked when explaining Sixes and leads to a lot of confusion about just what makes a 6 a 6. Not anxiety, existential anxiety. ;)
 

Starry

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This speaks to core 4 then. You've always had the perception of being "different" somehow; it's part of your core psychology.

If you were a 4-fixed 6, I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on from being bullied, but 6s are more geared to either rebelling to distinguish themselves from the masses, or simply noticing how they deviate and trying to eradicate that.

^^Sanjuro, I apologize but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with what you wrote above. There was nothing in the OPs passage you quoted that 'speaks to a core 4'...not even when we are only allowed to consider 4 and 6. What she wrote speaks to being human...and I can find you individuals from all the types...7s, 8s, 3s...that all share this deep seeded feeling of being fundamentally wrong.

Likewise, I'm not quite sure what you mean by...'I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on...' Part of what makes an e6 an e6...a common experience all e6s share that sets them apart from the rest of the types...is that they were injured at the earliest stages in life (attachment.) They took their injuries *first*.
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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^^Sanjuro, I apologize but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with what you wrote above. There was nothing in the OPs passage you quoted that 'speaks to a core 4'...not even when we are only allowed to consider 4 and 6. What she wrote speaks to being human...and I can find you individuals from all the types...7s, 8s, 3s...that all share this deep seeded feeling of being fundamentally wrong.
I'm going to disagree strongly back.

I am one of the ones which you speak of. The weirdo. The freak. I'm the one who was brutally tormented by her peers, made to feel different, rejected, humiliated, and by the end of my childhood I was utterly convinced there was something horribly wrong with me that caused people to reject me on sight. I hated myself and was convinced I was inherently revolting. I typed as a 4/5 for a long time for this reason--every damn word about the 4 descriptions is completely applicable, especially regarding my self image. I have walked that path.

What I'm talking about is an innate sense that you are different, flawed, or just "wrong". Before I endured what I did at the hands of my peers, I really didn't think of myself this way. When I was 3-4 years old, I was contentedly playing with my peers and thinking how lovely life was. I had the perception that if I cried, other kids would have beaten the shit out of me for being a crybaby, but no perceptions of myself as being flawed or different.

Yet many 4s report that at a similar age, they had the perception of being "different" from their family or peers, of feeling that something inside was "wrong" and prone to seeping out (as Tsu put it). An odd personal neurosis that's just always been there (similar to mine and crying). I find it helpful to look at early childhood memories for reasons such as these--they get beyond the issues that we accrue as we get older.

What Tsu seems to be emphasizing is that from a very early age, she felt different and flawed, and she feels this may have attracted bullying until she learned to protect that side of herself. Her sense of "difference" precedes what people told her, and if we take enneagram to be an inborn phenomenon, this is a strong indicator of type 4.

Likewise, I'm not quite sure what you mean by...'I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on...' Part of what makes an e6 an e6...a common experience all e6s share that sets them apart from the rest of the types...is that they were injured at the earliest stages in life (attachment.) They took their injuries *first*.
What that means is that I doubt a 6 would have been feeling fundamentally flawed and different at a very early age (unless, perhaps, a significant amount of peer rejection had already happened).

This is a wholly separate phenomenon from simply taking an injury in childhood--we've all had that done in one way or another. In the case of 6s, they tend to remember power abuses and/or untrustworthy protectors MORE than a sense of feeling fundamentally different. If they felt their injury strongly, I would expect to see guilty self-blame for bringing punishment upon oneself, but this is different than the sense of being fundamentally "wrong" that the OP has indicated.

She says she identifies most with 4 and 6, as well as the 468 tritype, so I don't find it unreasonable for us to debate core 4 vs core 6. I personally am not seeing much evidence for a 6 core here, but I do think her early childhood perceptions are highly indicative of 4.
 

Starry

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I'm going to disagree strongly back.

I wish I was online at this time more often. I mean, I am sometimes but with it being late/early for me... generally, I will only brave communicating with someone I feel knows me...privately. But I really feel I would enjoy interacting with you. I'm also immediately grateful for individuals that do not take personal offense to being disagreed with. <-I honestly feel this kind of person is going extinct or something and it frightens me...but that's a whole nuther thread. Just thank you for...being you.

I am one of the ones which you speak of. The weirdo. The freak. I'm the one who was brutally tormented by her peers, made to feel different, rejected, humiliated, and by the end of my childhood I was utterly convinced there was something horribly wrong with me that caused people to reject me on sight. I hated myself and was convinced I was inherently revolting. I typed as a 4/5 for a long time for this reason--every damn word about the 4 descriptions is completely applicable, especially regarding my self image. I have walked that path.

I sometimes feel strange running a counter-argument because my mission isn't to convince Sanjuro that I am right. I usually just want to put forth the initial disagreement so individuals (if they are paying attention which I typically doubt) will have an alternative way of looking at the information. What you write above though...I believe this only serves to reinforce what I was saying (that any type can experience feeling profoundly flawed.) I actually don't know an accurately typed NF that doesn't feel fundamentally different from the world around them...I'm not even sure how this would not manifest in an NF. And yes, for a good many of us...this difference ends up being interpreted as being 'fundamentally wrong.'

Anyway, I could go point for point but...??? If I decide to I'll do it tomorrow :) Thanks Sanjuro.
 
L

LadyLazarus

Guest
Definitely 4--you've got huge levels of self-awareness. Another type with a significant 4-fix can be similarly self aware; I think the difference is that 4s tend to identify with their emotional states more than the other types. (Ring any bells?)

Hmm,yes I think it does.

You're welcome guys. This is something that is often overlooked when explaining Sixes and leads to a lot of confusion about just what makes a 6 a 6. Not anxiety, existential anxiety. ;)

Yes I don't think I suffer from existential anxiety at all,thank you for emphasizing that aspect of 6's;I've never though of them that way but now it makes sense.
What Tsu seems to be emphasizing is that from a very early age, she felt different and flawed, and she feels this may have attracted bullying until she learned to protect that side of herself. Her sense of "difference" precedes what people told her

Yes, spot on.

She says she identifies most with 4 and 6, as well as the 468 tritype, so I don't find it unreasonable for us to debate core 4 vs core 6. I personally am not seeing much evidence for a 6 core here, but I do think her early childhood perceptions are highly indicative of 4.

Thank you,this is why I found it strange that Starry seemed to think I was an Sx 9w1,not to be hard headed but it is nowhere in my tritype.Although I will give them this;I might indeed have a 6w5 instead of a 6w7 like I originally thought as well as an 8w9 instead of w7, within my tritype;thus,I appreciate their bringing that to light for me.
I do think 4 and 6 are the contenders in terms of my core type among all the others,as I relate to their fears well.I also know my body type is neither 9 or 1,I do not identify with their fears,8's fears of appearing weak and betrayal seem much more relatable.

But with much difficulty,I digress.
 

OrangeAppled

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Now for 6.I relate to 6's need to face their fears;I have to come to suspect that I have a bit of social anxiety,people have always made me extremely nervous and I really detest talking to strangers.Once more,going back to my younger days,I used to go to great lengths to avoid having to interact with people(ie. skipping school,ditching class)for fear that they would notice my anxiety,therefore I would run away from my fears.As I have grown,I've learned to enjoy pushing myself to do things I am afraid of such as interacting with people when necessary,I've learned to hide my anxiety mildly well,and appear relatively at ease,although I still haven't figured out how to stop myself from blushing when someone catches me off-guard,haha.All in all,I like pushing myself to do things I don't want to/am afraid of,I see them as a challenge or a chance to improve myself.

I've always been very shy, which is basically a mild social anxiety. I used to skip class & flake out on stuff just to avoid interaction too.
However, just because you feel anxiety over certain things does not make fear your ego fix's "passion". The thing about enneagram is that ALL of the passions are common to the human experience, but with a certain fixation, one will characterize you more.

6s have an existential fear that they are always looking to sort of justify. The whole point is not that they have any specific anxiety, but that they experience everything through a lens of cowardice (which can look like worry or skepticism or insecurity, etc), so that they need to find & create reasons to support this fear with no clear source.

4s do the same with envy, which means they look inward & at their situation to constantly note what is missing or defective about them that others have. This is often more emotional/spiritual - not material things or specific talents, but others have love or others are fulfilling their potential, etc. Even if it's not true, the 4 will discount the meaningful stuff in their lives to justify the envy, or the idea that others have it better somehow.

This feeling of "missing something" can result in a shame over who you are. That shame can give you social anxiety.

I used to say I was timid when describing my shyness, but that word did not articulate the real source of it. I realized long ago that I do not fear or suspect others nor am I scared of their judgement - I withdraw because I am ashamed to be seen. It was my own sense of inadequacy, that I was not what I felt I should be, and that I had nothing to offer others that they'd value.

Maybe that will ring a bell for you. So much self-help stuff frames everything in terms of fear, and it never really hit home for me. Learning enneagram helped me see shame as a core issue for me, and then all my own behaviors & motivations really fell into place. To ease my shyness, I tell myself I have something to offer people that is significant. Even better is what another INFP a told me - remember that YOU have the power to make OTHERS feel significant also. It's not about fear - it's shame over a sense of being some defective NOTHING who would just irritate people by existing. So there are no fears for me to calm, but instead I just need a bolstering of self-esteem when feeling shy & avoident of others & a more "noble cause" - to think beyond my own feeling & consider how my shyness looks like snobbery or disinterest in others.

In a way, this makes shyness in 4s & 6s quite different, as 4s need to stop being hyper self-aware & consider the feelings of others, and 6s often need to stop being hyper-vigilant concerning others' reactions & "moves".
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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I wish I was online at this time more often. I mean, I am sometimes but with it being late/early for me... generally, I will only brave communicating with someone I feel knows me...privately. But I really feel I would enjoy interacting with you. I'm also immediately grateful for individuals that do not take personal offense to being disagreed with. <-I honestly feel this kind of person is going extinct or something and it frightens me...but that's a whole nuther thread. Just thank you for...being you.
Hey, that's totally cool. I enjoy discussing the theory; as long as we're disagreeing about that and not attacking each other personally, it makes the forum an enjoyable place to be. I believe it's all part of the learning process and is also useful to others who may read this thread in the future.

Anyway, you seem like an awesome person as well. Let's keep up the correspondence. :)

I sometimes feel strange running a counter-argument because my mission isn't to convince Sanjuro that I am right. I usually just want to put forth the initial disagreement so individuals (if they are paying attention which I typically doubt) will have an alternative way of looking at the information. What you write above though...I believe this only serves to reinforce what I was saying (that any type can experience feeling profoundly flawed.) I actually don't know an accurately typed NF that doesn't feel fundamentally different from the world around them...I'm not even sure how this would not manifest in an NF. And yes, for a good many of us...this difference ends up being interpreted as being 'fundamentally wrong.'

Anyway, I could go point for point but...??? If I decide to I'll do it tomorrow :) Thanks Sanjuro.
That's great.

I'm an NT, actually, and I've still been a misfit. My mom's an ISFJ 9w1, and she claims she felt the same way, too. She typed as 5 initially for this reason, I think. (She's also 4-fixed, and I'm not sure if her feelings on this were inherent or the result of being devalued later in life, however).

Nonetheless, if Tsu's primary issue is feeling flawed and separate, and this existed prior to being poorly treated by her peers, I still maintain that 4 is a better option than 6, especially given that she hasn't expressed much in the way of true existential anxiety. I'm interested in hearing the final verdict from her.
 

Forever_Jung

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I've always been very shy, which is basically a mild social anxiety. I used to skip class & flake out on stuff just to avoid interaction too.
However, just because you feel anxiety over certain things does not make fear your ego fix's "passion". The thing about enneagram is that ALL of the passions are common to the human experience, but with a certain fixation, one will characterize you more.

6s have an existential fear that they are always looking to sort of justify. The whole point is not that they have any specific anxiety, but that they experience everything through a lens of cowardice (which can look like worry or skepticism or insecurity, etc), so that they need to find & create reasons to support this fear with no clear source.

4s do the same with envy, which means they look inward & at their situation to constantly note what is missing or defective about them that others have. This is often more emotional/spiritual - not material things or specific talents, but others have love or others are fulfilling their potential, etc. Even if it's not true, the 4 will discount the meaningful stuff in their lives to justify the envy, or the idea that others have it better somehow.

This feeling of "missing something" can result in a shame over who you are. That shame can give you social anxiety.

I used to say I was timid when describing my shyness, but that word did not articulate the real source of it. I realized long ago that I do not fear or suspect others nor am I scared of their judgement - I withdraw because I am ashamed to be seen. It was my own sense of inadequacy, that I was not what I felt I should be, and that I had nothing to offer others that they'd value.

Maybe that will ring a bell for you. So much self-help stuff frames everything in terms of fear, and it never really hit home for me. Learning enneagram helped me see shame as a core issue for me, and then all my own behaviors & motivations really fell into place. To ease my shyness, I tell myself I have something to offer people that is significant. Even better is what another INFP a told me - remember that YOU have the power to make OTHERS feel significant also. It's not about fear - it's shame over a sense of being some defective NOTHING who would just irritate people by existing. So there are no fears for me to calm, but instead I just need a bolstering of self-esteem when feeling shy & avoident of others & a more "noble cause" - to think beyond my own feeling & consider how my shyness looks like snobbery or disinterest in others.

In a way, this makes shyness in 4s & 6s quite different, as 4s need to stop being hyper self-aware & consider the feelings of others, and 6s often need to stop being hyper-vigilant concerning others' reactions & "moves".

Ooh! I like this ^ That's a good distinction, IMO.

I am a six, and yeah I have some of that fourish stuff, but mostly I am panicky. I used to act very introverted, but then I realized (after a lot of bullying) that my withdrawn nature was being interpreted as being aloof/superior/weird/elitist. So now I am defensively friendly, kind of like: Hey! I'm a normal person, I don't think I'm better than you, I don't want no trouble, justa regular dumb guy over here, *insert nervous joke*. Then they move on, and I heave a sigh of relief and return into myself. Every strange person I meet is a bomb hurled into my lap that I must defuse with self-deprecating humour and fumblingly eager enthusiasm.

I am afraid to allow myself to feel comfortable and secure, so I'll even manufacture danger if I can't find any. When I get bored at my customer service job, I start hurling myself into very weird, uncomfortable interactions just to see if I can verbally escape and make the customer laugh.

That's not all 6's mind you, but I'm a phobic 6w7 sp type, with a lot of Ne, so I am much more verbal and hyper. Don't get so hung up on how I behave, so much as what's motivating the behaviour.

So going back to what you said:

Now for 6.I relate to 6's need to face their fears;I have to come to suspect that I have a bit of social anxiety,people have always made me extremely nervous and I really detest talking to strangers.Once more,going back to my younger days,I used to go to great lengths to avoid having to interact with people(ie. skipping school,ditching class)for fear that they would notice my anxiety,therefore I would run away from my fears.As I have grown,I've learned to enjoy pushing myself to do things I am afraid of such as interacting with people when necessary,I've learned to hide my anxiety mildly well,and appear relatively at ease,although I still haven't figured out how to stop myself from blushing when someone catches me off-guard,haha.All in all,I like pushing myself to do things I don't want to/am afraid of,I see them as a challenge or a chance to improve myself.

This sounds very sixish, and so does the general tone of your post (The "weird rant aside" comment, suggests 6 defensiveness to me, for example. 6's often use disclaimers and self-deprecation as a defense mechanism, not that they OWN this behaviour).

Edit: Not to muddy the waters, I'm just making a case for 6, since you seem to be leaning towards 4. ;)
 

Mal12345

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Alright,so I'm starting to question whether I'm really a four or if I just want to be a four,because I want to be special and misunderstood or whatever.

I usually test as a 4w5,but that doesn't tell me much as I understand online tests are inaccurate,I fear I may just be lying to myself sub-consciously or something,or maybe I really have no idea who I am.Either way,I want to know which one I am,as the enneagram is a tool for self discovery and growth,and possibly lying to myself just defeats the purpose of it all.

Anyways,weird rant aside,I am pretty confident my tritype is some variant of 4-6-8,with the eight in last.

That being said,I relate to both 4 and 6 pretty well.

In regards to 4 I relate to their feelings of shame,of being defective,their romanticism,being aware of their own emotions,as well as their integration and disintegration points.When I was younger I always felt that I wasn't like my peers,like I was fucked up in some way that made me awkward,and inept in comparison.I think this was due to my being very sensitive from an early age,in tandem with being rejected by certain people early on,I've never truly been able to get over/cope with that.Whereas before I felt I was defective,now I have come to accept myself for what I am,and understand that there's nothing wrong with me,it's just the way I am.

The only thing I don't relate to is 4's aversion to conflict,but maybe that's just because of my tritype.

Now for 6.I relate to 6's need to face their fears;I have to come to suspect that I have a bit of social anxiety,people have always made me extremely nervous and I really detest talking to strangers.Once more,going back to my younger days,I used to go to great lengths to avoid having to interact with people(ie. skipping school,ditching class)for fear that they would notice my anxiety,therefore I would run away from my fears.As I have grown,I've learned to enjoy pushing myself to do things I am afraid of such as interacting with people when necessary,I've learned to hide my anxiety mildly well,and appear relatively at ease,although I still haven't figured out how to stop myself from blushing when someone catches me off-guard,haha.All in all,I like pushing myself to do things I don't want to/am afraid of,I see them as a challenge or a chance to improve myself.
However,I do not relate to 6's loyalist,rule abiding nature,but that may be because I'm an Sx first?I also do not relate to it's disintegration point for certain,and I'm pretty sure I don't relate to it's integration point very well either.


I apologize for my rambling,and would appreciate anyone's input on which one they think I am,based on this of course.

The 6 is an emotionally volatile type, and you haven't described yourself that way at all.
 
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LadyLazarus

Guest
The 6 is an emotionally volatile type, and you haven't described yourself that way at all.

I actually can be pretty emotionally volatile,I don't think it was very evident in my original post.
Although,I do admit I am much more emotionally stable now than I have been in the past.
 
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LadyLazarus

Guest
This sounds very sixish, and so does the general tone of your post (The "weird rant aside" comment, suggests 6 defensiveness to me, for example. 6's often use disclaimers and self-deprecation as a defense mechanism, not that they OWN this behaviour).

Edit: Not to muddy the waters, I'm just making a case for 6, since you seem to be leaning towards 4. ;)

Yes,I can see that.No,no it's fine I want to see good arguments for both.:)

Haha well,there's kind of been an overwhelming response for 4.
 
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LadyLazarus

Guest
Nonetheless, if Tsu's primary issue is feeling flawed and separate, and this existed prior to being poorly treated by her peers, I still maintain that 4 is a better option than 6, especially given that she hasn't expressed much in the way of true existential anxiety. I'm interested in hearing the final verdict from her.

Well Sanjuro;my verdict is as follows:4w5 sx/sp, as I see no existential anxiety in myself either,my anxiety is much more specific and restrained to social situations.Despite some very good arguments for 6,I am going to go with 4.Your posts along with Azure Flame's and Starry's prompted me to look further into the enneagram fears.Upon farther consideration of all the fears,I indeed landed on 4 once more.I think I possess 6-ish traits but not motivations,due to my 6-fix.
So I thank everybody for their help!:)
 
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LadyLazarus

Guest
I've always been very shy, which is basically a mild social anxiety. I used to skip class & flake out on stuff just to avoid interaction too.
However, just because you feel anxiety over certain things does not make fear your ego fix's "passion". The thing about enneagram is that ALL of the passions are common to the human experience, but with a certain fixation, one will characterize you more.

6s have an existential fear that they are always looking to sort of justify. The whole point is not that they have any specific anxiety, but that they experience everything through a lens of cowardice (which can look like worry or skepticism or insecurity, etc), so that they need to find & create reasons to support this fear with no clear source.

4s do the same with envy, which means they look inward & at their situation to constantly note what is missing or defective about them that others have. This is often more emotional/spiritual - not material things or specific talents, but others have love or others are fulfilling their potential, etc. Even if it's not true, the 4 will discount the meaningful stuff in their lives to justify the envy, or the idea that others have it better somehow.

This feeling of "missing something" can result in a shame over who you are. That shame can give you social anxiety.


I used to say I was timid when describing my shyness, but that word did not articulate the real source of it. I realized long ago that I do not fear or suspect others nor am I scared of their judgement - I withdraw because I am ashamed to be seen. It was my own sense of inadequacy, that I was not what I felt I should be, and that I had nothing to offer others that they'd value.

Maybe that will ring a bell for you. So much self-help stuff frames everything in terms of fear, and it never really hit home for me. Learning enneagram helped me see shame as a core issue for me, and then all my own behaviors & motivations really fell into place. To ease my shyness, I tell myself I have something to offer people that is significant. Even better is what another INFP a told me - remember that YOU have the power to make OTHERS feel significant also. It's not about fear - it's shame over a sense of being some defective NOTHING who would just irritate people by existing. So there are no fears for me to calm, but instead I just need a bolstering of self-esteem when feeling shy & avoident of others & a more "noble cause" - to think beyond my own feeling & consider how my shyness looks like snobbery or disinterest in others.

In a way, this makes shyness in 4s & 6s quite different, as 4s need to stop being hyper self-aware & consider the feelings of others, and 6s often need to stop being hyper-vigilant concerning others' reactions & "moves".

Yes,I really agree with the bolded parts,I think I am rather suspicious of people and get very wary around strangers,but overall I think my motivation is shame,as I think I do my damn-est to hide my social anxiety because it something I am ashamed about.I also think it did in fact result from shame not fear of people,I am not afraid of people it's just extremely embarrassing and painful to see how awkward I am in comparison,that's why I tend to stay away from people,I don't want it thrown in my face again and again by my brain,when I am already all too aware.

That last part really hit the spot,my anxiety is derived from excessive self-awareness/self-absorption,not so much on others motives,those don't worry me as much I can usually tell when others are out to hurt me and simply detach myself from them.When it comes to getting out of myself in terms of trying to considering others feelings,I am quite horrible I must admit,as I am not naturally aware of others.
 
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