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  1. #41
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsunderes View Post
    Yes,you make a compelling point there.

    I usually test INTP most often,but I sometimes do test INFP.I don't think so,as I have a strong preference for Fi(therefore a poor preference for Fe),a moderate preference for Ne over Se,Poor Si,Poor Ni,Mild Ti,and Poor Te.

    I don't think it was very apparent in this particular thread but in some others as well as internally I am.
    Okay umm...the reason I came into this thread...in the way that I did (if I had to choose one word to describe myself it would probably be *endearing* <-don't you think? I'm thinking that's probably how you...)

    I'm not getting 4 or 6 from you really. I'm wondering what you think of the e9 core fears/issues? 9w1...have you considered this etype before?

  2. #42
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Here's my usual (reductive) take on how to determine which you are:

    You're a 4 if you can strongly identify with the most negative aspects of the description; you're a 6 if you can strongly identify with the most positive aspects of the description.

    People want to be 4s because the more romantic aspects are appealing, and therefore distracting; but I think if you can look at the brutal descriptions and think, "oh god, that's horrible but so true", it's more telling. I suppose an actual 4 isn't as distracted by the flattering attributes and can look at the dark side of themselves with honesty and interest than other types.

    I think the opposite is true with 6s because the descriptions tend to be kinda bland and/or negative, so much so even 6s feel put off by them. Who wants to be labelled neurotic? I also think that the phobic qualities of 6s are rarely overt, and/or 6s aren't as keenly aware of them. I think 6s need to start by looking at the other stuff that makes up the type first before delving into those qualities.

    I haven't seen a particularly good 6 description to use as an example, but if the OP is considering 4w5, look at this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Typewatch Enneagram - 4w5
    4w5s have a harsher edge than 4w3s and are the true outsiders of the enneagram. They tend to be more intellectual and introspective. They are more likely to philosophize their inner reality. Many 4w5s have an unflinching "this is me so deal with it" persona that's harder and crustier in comparison to 4w3s. They tend to be absurdly original or profoundly eclectic. Either way they have a more "take it or leave it" attitude and are more likely to direct a critical edge at others. Their persona serves more to redirect their shame away from their vulnerable self behind it in contrast to the 4w3 whose more shapeshifting persona facilitates relating to people. The more shame a 4w5 feels the more they implode, or in some cases amplify their persona as a countershame response. As a result 4w5s are more likely to present a more bizarre and even grotesque image in some instances that reflects their feelings of defectiveness combined with a fascination for the macabre that their five wing brings.

    4w5s have a great pride in staying "true to themselves no matter what" amidst what changes in the world around them. They accept being isolated from others and are personally invested in their self-image enough to stick with it through thick and thin. They are equally proud of suffering for their weirdness as paying the price for being who they are only makes them feel even more authentic about themselves. It illustrates how they are too complex to be understood by the unworthy who lack the perception to decode their many layers to understand the real them.

    Suffering for their internal self-image serves to reinforce their authenticity. The more they suffer for it the more they cling to their internal self-image and 4w5s wear their lack of compromise as a badge of honor for being true to themselves. "I'm completely true to myself and no one can take that from me." They mythologize their own personal tragedy. On the flip side being double-withdrawn they have less of a will to deal with the world and feel more overwhelmed by it. Despite seeking meaning in everything they are more likely to tend towards nihilism. Combine that with being even more true to themselves in response to their suffering and they become more and more disconnected from the world. In a self-destructive cycle the 4w5 holds his head high at never selling himself out like others, but ironically has little to nothing to show for it since he's actualized his identity with futile concepts that have no basis in reality. A feeling of hopelessness sets in and he withdraws from the world more permanently.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #43
    LadyLazarus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Okay umm...the reason I came into this thread...in the way that I did (if I had to choose one word to describe myself it would probably be *endearing* <-don't you think? I'm thinking that's probably how you...)

    I'm not getting 4 or 6 from you really. I'm wondering what you think of the e9 core fears/issues? 9w1...have you considered this etype before?
    Um,yeah sure I suppose so,I don't know enough about you to judge in all actuality.

    If 6w7's are supposed to be endearing as well,then yes,you're right,I am not a 6w7.

    Haha no sorry I don't think I am a nine at all.I live with a 9w1 and it frankly irks me when she tries to placate me in the middle of an argument,but she is a very gentle and sweet person;basically everything I could never truly be.When, I feel at my best I can be gentle in my own way too but most of the time,no.
    I don't care about inner peace,I don't withdraw from conflict like 9's do,I am not afraid of becoming fragmented.
    I also don't relate to their integration point of 3.
    Overall,I don't relate to 9 at all.How/where did you see 9??If there's one thing I know for certain it is this: I am not a core 2,3,9,1,or 8.

    Not to say I am adverse to 9 in any way shape or form,I have no particularly strong feelings about the type at all,I just can't say I relate.

  4. #44
    LadyLazarus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Here's my usual (reductive) take on how to determine which you are:

    You're a 4 if you can strongly identify with the most negative aspects of the description; you're a 6 if you can strongly identify with the most positive aspects of the description.

    People want to be 4s because the more romantic aspects are appealing, and therefore distracting; but I think if you can look at the brutal descriptions and think, "oh god, that's horrible but so true", it's more telling. I suppose an actual 4 isn't as distracted by the flattering attributes and can look at the dark side of themselves with honesty and interest than other types.

    I think the opposite is true with 6s because the descriptions tend to be kinda bland and/or negative, so much so even 6s feel put off by them. Who wants to be labelled neurotic? I also think that the phobic qualities of 6s are rarely overt, and/or 6s aren't as keenly aware of them. I think 6s need to start by looking at the other stuff that makes up the type first before delving into those qualities.

    I haven't seen a particularly good 6 description to use as an example, but if the OP is considering 4w5, look at this one:
    Interesting...thank you.

  5. #45
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsunderes View Post
    Um,yeah sure I suppose so,I don't know enough about you to judge in all actuality.

    If 6w7's are supposed to be endearing as well,then yes,you're right,I am not a 6w7.

    Haha no sorry I don't think I am a nine at all.I live with a 9w1 and it frankly irks me when she tries to placate me in the middle of an argument,but she is a very gentle and sweet person;basically everything I could never truly be.When, I feel at my best I can be gentle in my own way too but most of the time,no.
    I don't care about inner peace,I don't withdraw from conflict like 9's do,I am not afraid of becoming fragmented.
    I also don't relate to their integration point of 3.
    Overall,I don't relate to 9 at all.How/where did you see 9??If there's one thing I know for certain it is this: I am not a core 2,3,9,1,or 8.

    Not to say I am adverse to 9 in any way shape or form,I have no particularly strong feelings about the type at all,I just can't say I relate.

    You seem to be working with what I would consider to be a very FJ description of e9. FP e9s can definitely show flashes of aggression when they are or become especially attached to some value/cause (and if not aggression then 'endurance' to see a certain value upheld)...and e9 sx even more so.

    But...I'm not going to force anything on you. You seem like you know what you're doing. Have a great evening.

  6. #46
    LadyLazarus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    You seem to be working with what I would consider to be a very FJ description of e9. FP e9s can definitely show flashes of aggression when they are or become especially attached to some value/cause (and if not aggression then 'endurance' to see a certain value upheld)...and e9 sx even more so.

    But...I'm not going to force anything on you. You seem like you know what you're doing. Have a great evening.
    Regardless,I don't relate to their integration point or their fears...

    Yes,I appreciate your opinion despite my disagreement.Likewise.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsunderes View Post
    I've always had these feelings,from a very young age I've felt like there was something fundamentally wrong with me,it actually had nothing to do with how others treated me,in fact I've always believed I've brought all the bullying and teasing that's happened in my life upon myself,I didn't know how to cope with my strangeness, so I let it all seep through the cracks,and of course then everyone noticed how easy of a target I was after that. I've noticed now that I keep my distance and hide my self-pity from others,people have left me alone.

    I read that in some description of them.
    This speaks to core 4 then. You've always had the perception of being "different" somehow; it's part of your core psychology.

    If you were a 4-fixed 6, I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on from being bullied, but 6s are more geared to either rebelling to distinguish themselves from the masses, or simply noticing how they deviate and trying to eradicate that.

    My relationship with my emotions,is very good I believe;I always know what I am feeling,I embrace them,and I am very good about expressing them.All in all,I think I have a pretty healthy relationship with my emotions,I've always been able to understand them very well,I'm always aware of them, and feel them very deeply.Although the latter has caused me a lot of distress.
    Definitely 4--you've got huge levels of self-awareness. Another type with a significant 4-fix can be similarly self aware; I think the difference is that 4s tend to identify with their emotional states more than the other types. (Ring any bells?)

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes, exactly. 6s lack trust in personal, internal stability, and so we seek it everywhere else - but can find it nowhere, because we're not stabilized within ourselves. We don't trust ourselves to know it when we see it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nights and Days View Post
    Oh man, this is the story of my life.

    Thanks.
    You're welcome guys. This is something that is often overlooked when explaining Sixes and leads to a lot of confusion about just what makes a 6 a 6. Not anxiety, existential anxiety.

  8. #48
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    This speaks to core 4 then. You've always had the perception of being "different" somehow; it's part of your core psychology.

    If you were a 4-fixed 6, I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on from being bullied, but 6s are more geared to either rebelling to distinguish themselves from the masses, or simply noticing how they deviate and trying to eradicate that.
    ^^Sanjuro, I apologize but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with what you wrote above. There was nothing in the OPs passage you quoted that 'speaks to a core 4'...not even when we are only allowed to consider 4 and 6. What she wrote speaks to being human...and I can find you individuals from all the types...7s, 8s, 3s...that all share this deep seeded feeling of being fundamentally wrong.

    Likewise, I'm not quite sure what you mean by...'I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on...' Part of what makes an e6 an e6...a common experience all e6s share that sets them apart from the rest of the types...is that they were injured at the earliest stages in life (attachment.) They took their injuries *first*.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^Sanjuro, I apologize but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with what you wrote above. There was nothing in the OPs passage you quoted that 'speaks to a core 4'...not even when we are only allowed to consider 4 and 6. What she wrote speaks to being human...and I can find you individuals from all the types...7s, 8s, 3s...that all share this deep seeded feeling of being fundamentally wrong.
    I'm going to disagree strongly back.

    I am one of the ones which you speak of. The weirdo. The freak. I'm the one who was brutally tormented by her peers, made to feel different, rejected, humiliated, and by the end of my childhood I was utterly convinced there was something horribly wrong with me that caused people to reject me on sight. I hated myself and was convinced I was inherently revolting. I typed as a 4/5 for a long time for this reason--every damn word about the 4 descriptions is completely applicable, especially regarding my self image. I have walked that path.

    What I'm talking about is an innate sense that you are different, flawed, or just "wrong". Before I endured what I did at the hands of my peers, I really didn't think of myself this way. When I was 3-4 years old, I was contentedly playing with my peers and thinking how lovely life was. I had the perception that if I cried, other kids would have beaten the shit out of me for being a crybaby, but no perceptions of myself as being flawed or different.

    Yet many 4s report that at a similar age, they had the perception of being "different" from their family or peers, of feeling that something inside was "wrong" and prone to seeping out (as Tsu put it). An odd personal neurosis that's just always been there (similar to mine and crying). I find it helpful to look at early childhood memories for reasons such as these--they get beyond the issues that we accrue as we get older.

    What Tsu seems to be emphasizing is that from a very early age, she felt different and flawed, and she feels this may have attracted bullying until she learned to protect that side of herself. Her sense of "difference" precedes what people told her, and if we take enneagram to be an inborn phenomenon, this is a strong indicator of type 4.

    Likewise, I'm not quite sure what you mean by...'I doubt you would have come into life feeling that level of difference. You might have acquired it later on...' Part of what makes an e6 an e6...a common experience all e6s share that sets them apart from the rest of the types...is that they were injured at the earliest stages in life (attachment.) They took their injuries *first*.
    What that means is that I doubt a 6 would have been feeling fundamentally flawed and different at a very early age (unless, perhaps, a significant amount of peer rejection had already happened).

    This is a wholly separate phenomenon from simply taking an injury in childhood--we've all had that done in one way or another. In the case of 6s, they tend to remember power abuses and/or untrustworthy protectors MORE than a sense of feeling fundamentally different. If they felt their injury strongly, I would expect to see guilty self-blame for bringing punishment upon oneself, but this is different than the sense of being fundamentally "wrong" that the OP has indicated.

    She says she identifies most with 4 and 6, as well as the 468 tritype, so I don't find it unreasonable for us to debate core 4 vs core 6. I personally am not seeing much evidence for a 6 core here, but I do think her early childhood perceptions are highly indicative of 4.

  10. #50
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I'm going to disagree strongly back.
    I wish I was online at this time more often. I mean, I am sometimes but with it being late/early for me... generally, I will only brave communicating with someone I feel knows me...privately. But I really feel I would enjoy interacting with you. I'm also immediately grateful for individuals that do not take personal offense to being disagreed with. <-I honestly feel this kind of person is going extinct or something and it frightens me...but that's a whole nuther thread. Just thank you for...being you.

    I am one of the ones which you speak of. The weirdo. The freak. I'm the one who was brutally tormented by her peers, made to feel different, rejected, humiliated, and by the end of my childhood I was utterly convinced there was something horribly wrong with me that caused people to reject me on sight. I hated myself and was convinced I was inherently revolting. I typed as a 4/5 for a long time for this reason--every damn word about the 4 descriptions is completely applicable, especially regarding my self image. I have walked that path.
    I sometimes feel strange running a counter-argument because my mission isn't to convince Sanjuro that I am right. I usually just want to put forth the initial disagreement so individuals (if they are paying attention which I typically doubt) will have an alternative way of looking at the information. What you write above though...I believe this only serves to reinforce what I was saying (that any type can experience feeling profoundly flawed.) I actually don't know an accurately typed NF that doesn't feel fundamentally different from the world around them...I'm not even sure how this would not manifest in an NF. And yes, for a good many of us...this difference ends up being interpreted as being 'fundamentally wrong.'

    Anyway, I could go point for point but...??? If I decide to I'll do it tomorrow Thanks Sanjuro.

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