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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    @valaki, the army jeep example is still Si because it is linking a feeling (in this case emotions based on appearance) to a concrete object in the exterior world. Ni doesn't do that, Ni-types would probably passively examine it with Se and make a conclusion about why it is there, what it wants, and where it is from.
    This was still making an association with a general image that was not concretely present. Ni according to Jung does just that. Jung doesn't describe Si as very emotional either, just passive.

    Maybe it was the ISFJ's inferior Ne, though?


    That example sounds sort of like Te-Fi.
    Stronger T than F, right? Now, "I could write you a whole essay about symbolism or allusions", is that Te???

  2. #22
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    This was still making an association with a general image that was not concretely present. Ni according to Jung does just that. Jung doesn't describe Si as very emotional either, just passive.

    Stronger T than F, right? Now, "I could write you a whole essay about symbolism or allusions", is that Te???
    Ni does do that, which is why that example isn't Ni because there is a physical object in the concrete world with a subjective association (Si). This particular case to the Si users conjures up certain emotions "the army jeep bounds down the hill" (or whatever it was) is a subjective visual interpretation of the event. The Si user is subjectively defining what the army jeep looks like to them. An Ni user doesn't do that, as their sensory function is Se, meaning that when asked to describe a concrete object they will probably define it objectively (as Ni doesn't make associations with concrete objects) (i.e., this is round, blue, has some writing on it).


    Symbolism and allusions are mostly subjective constructs which suggest a preference of Ji > Je. Te would honestly be driven mad by the lack of factual evidence to justify what one particular symbolism actually means to everyone while Fi would be comfortable figuring out what the symbolism or allusion means to the user.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Ni does do that, which is why that example isn't Ni because there is a physical object in the concrete world with a subjective association (Si). This particular case to the Si users conjures up certain emotions "the army jeep bounds down the hill" (or whatever it was) is a subjective visual interpretation of the event. The Si user is subjectively defining what the army jeep looks like to them. An Ni user doesn't do that, as their sensory function is Se, meaning that when asked to describe a concrete object they will probably define it objectively (as Ni doesn't make associations with concrete objects) (i.e., this is round, blue, has some writing on it).
    I assume you wanted to talk about Ne in the bolded part?

    Jung's example about Ni in this case was Ne-ish too?

    Another thing doesn't make sense to me here, S isn't really an emotional function and I don't recall Jung describing Si users as being any more emotional than Se types. Correct me if I'm wrong, do cite something about that then.


    Symbolism and allusions are mostly subjective constructs which suggest a preference of Ji > Je. Te would honestly be driven mad by the lack of factual evidence to justify what one particular symbolism actually means to everyone while Fi would be comfortable figuring out what the symbolism or allusion means to the user.
    I've seen several -supposedly- INTJs not relying on factual evidence and explaining that by the idea that their Te isn't always "on". I will be honest, it does drive me mad when one such INTJ refuses to listen to what I say, using such "arguments". He explicitly said that facts are not always that important. When he gets like that, it's really impossible to get him to understand something.

    Symbolism in general is associated with Ni, though sure it can be something else, I'm sure Fi can do it too but the way OP talked about it, it was impersonal, that is, it wasn't about what the symbolism means to her personally. See: "when you ask me why I like a certain character ... I'll draw a blank".

  4. #24
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I assume you wanted to talk about Ne in the bolded part?

    Jung's example about Ni in this case was Ne-ish too?

    Another thing doesn't make sense to me here, S isn't really an emotional function and I don't recall Jung describing Si users as being any more emotional than Se types. Correct me if I'm wrong, do cite something about that then.




    I've seen several -supposedly- INTJs not relying on factual evidence and explaining that by the idea that their Te isn't always "on". I will be honest, it does drive me mad when one such INTJ refuses to listen to what I say, using such "arguments". He explicitly said that facts are not always that important. When he gets like that, it's really impossible to get him to understand something.

    Symbolism in general is associated with Ni, though sure it can be something else, I'm sure Fi can do it too but the way OP talked about it, it was impersonal, that is, it wasn't about what the symbolism means to her personally. See: "when you ask me why I like a certain character ... I'll draw a blank".
    No, Jung was entirely right, it's just that the Si example is an association to something in the concrete world, whereas Ni is closer to an association to something in the abstract world.

    I was mistaken when I said emotions, it is actually subjective sensations, what sensing information means to you.

    The reason why INTJ's don't rely on factual evidence is because they are Ni-doms, and Ni is not concerned with objectivity and real life application in any sort. We are introverted irrational types, meaning that we don't engage people with Te readily, we engage them with Ni. If you want reliance on factual evidence and rational approaches, go talk to an ENTJ.

    Ni is finding symbolism.

    Ji is making sense of symbolism. (and writing about it)

    Je types can focus on themes of stories because everyone is usually in accordance with themes, thus making it objective, but they have a hard time finding anything useful of symbolism, as symbolism can be interpreted so many different ways that it is impossible to gather one conclusive answer.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    No, Jung was entirely right, it's just that the Si example is an association to something in the concrete world, whereas Ni is closer to an association to something in the abstract world.

    I was mistaken when I said emotions, it is actually subjective sensations, what sensing information means to you.
    Jung's Ni example was an association directly arising from the physical sensation. What do you say about that?


    The reason why INTJ's don't rely on factual evidence is because they are Ni-doms, and Ni is not concerned with objectivity and real life application in any sort. We are introverted irrational types, meaning that we don't engage people with Te readily, we engage them with Ni. If you want reliance on factual evidence and rational approaches, go talk to an ENTJ.
    Yeah, my point was exactly that.


    Ni is finding symbolism.

    Ji is making sense of symbolism. (and writing about it)

    Je types can focus on themes of stories because everyone is usually in accordance with themes, thus making it objective, but they have a hard time finding anything useful of symbolism, as symbolism can be interpreted so many different ways that it is impossible to gather one conclusive answer.
    So are you trying to say OP is Ti-dom? Because, as I've shown OP wasn't doing it in the Fi way, do let me know if you disagree.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Jung's Ni example was an association directly arising from the physical sensation. What do you say about that?




    Yeah, my point was exactly that.




    So are you trying to say OP is Ti-dom? Because, as I've shown OP wasn't doing it in the Fi way, do let me know if you disagree.
    Yes, OP would be a Ti type if it is entirely impersonal. (I vote INTP in this situation, because Si is still present in there somewhere, probably Ti-Si thing going on)


    As for Ni:

    Ni, when motivated to, utilizes Se to gather objective, specific sensory information from the environment in order to disseminate it and find what constitutes something, or what it is at its most basic level.

    Si, always, interprets the world subjectively and associates specific sensational information to concrete objects.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Yes, OP would be a Ti type if it is entirely impersonal. (I vote INTP in this situation, because Si is still present in there somewhere, probably Ti-Si thing going on)
    Possible... I did think about that myself.

    I'm curious to hear what OP says.



    As for Ni:

    Ni, when motivated to, utilizes Se to gather objective, specific sensory information from the environment in order to disseminate it and find what constitutes something, or what it is at its most basic level.

    Si, always, interprets the world subjectively and associates specific sensational information to concrete objects.
    The question here would be, what is "specific sensational information". In the jungian example, it was an archetypal image, not a sensational information. In the army jeep example, it still didn't seem like "sensational information" but do explain why it was such, in your opinion. Going beyond the emotional content that caused the person to chuckle.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Possible... I did think about that myself.

    I'm curious to hear what OP says.





    The question here would be, what is "specific sensational information". In the jungian example, it was an archetypal image, not a sensational information. In the army jeep example, it still didn't seem like "sensational information" but do explain why it was such, in your opinion. Going beyond the emotional content that caused the person to chuckle.
    Sensing - Trust in the 5 senses and what's directly in front of you
    Intuition - Trust in gut instinct and assumptions

    The Army Jeep example is Si. Introverted Sensation is literally, when you simplify the words down, subjective experience. They take in outside information via Sensing, but don't perceive it objectively first. They perceive it as what it means to them. They use their 5 senses and engage the environment like every human being does, but they specifically hone in on what it means to them. Si users ascribe subjective associations with concrete objects. "This object is soft (to me)", "This object is scary (to me)", "This object seems like it's bounding over the hills like a dog (to me)".

    Introverted intuition is subjective assumption. Ni users interpret possibilities as what they mean to them, and this is why Ne users don't usually get visions, premonitions, or gut "feelings", simply because Ni is determining what possibilities mean to the user rather than the entire collective.

  9. #29
    Junior Member melisanddre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Possible... I did think about that myself.

    I'm curious to hear what OP says.
    Eh, I'm more Te than Ti, actually. If I was going to be a NT, I would probably be an INTJ, but that's not a good fit, really. I just have such high Fi. I have a lot of INTP friends and I am nothing like them at all, haha.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melisanddre View Post
    Eh, I'm more Te than Ti, actually. If I was going to be a NT, I would probably be an INTJ, but that's not a good fit, really. I just have such high Fi. I have a lot of INTP friends and I am nothing like them at all, haha.
    Do you relate to the Si things we were talking about? Or does it seem somewhat foreign?

    Methinks the Se thing you talked about was a shadow process that arrived under a period of momentary stress, possibly the opposing personality.

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