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INXX

valaki

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I do... I think I'll be a little freakish for whatever I type as, because throughout my life I've consciously avoided committing to one type of thought/action for too long; my mother is a therapist/dance & yoga instructor, and my father is an investment banker/author, so I tried to embody very polarized ideals throughout my childhood. Though it doesn't add up to one type, I trust my cognitive functions percentages (roughly): my Ni, Ti and Fi are all strong, but the combination of NiTe best describes my thought patterns when isolated from social influence. So in response, I do like to use, and in fact rely on, Ti, but Ti alone is directionless and ultimately very frustrating in conversation. My Ti operates best within a pragmatic frame built by Te... as I understand Ti and Te. If I say something that seems obviously off I hope you'll tell me.

It's okay to be "freakish" lool :p

To me Ti doesn't seem directionless but I guess it's subjective as to what "directionless" means

What is this Te pragmatic frame like for you?
 

Opal

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It's okay to be "freakish" lool :p

To me Ti doesn't seem directionless but I guess it's subjective as to what "directionless" means

What is this Te pragmatic frame like for you?

I'm leaning a little bit on INTP descriptions I've read. This is Google's first relevant result. I guess I find Ti a little tedious, but I like to nit-pick if an idea's consistency affects something I value, usually somewhere in the planning process (after Ni's done its thing and illuminated the dramatic situation and Te's reined in the possible courses of action). The more I try to justify it, though, the less appealing Ti sounds haha.

Using Ti to explain my use of Ti is a little mind-boggling.
 

valaki

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I'm leaning a little bit on INTP descriptions I've read. This is Google's first relevant result. I guess I find Ti a little tedious, but I like to nit-pick if an idea's consistency affects something I value, usually somewhere in the planning process (after Ni's done its thing and illuminated the dramatic situation and Te's reined in the possible courses of action). The more I try to justify it, though, the less appealing Ti sounds haha.

Using Ti to explain my use of Ti is a little mind-boggling.

Lol @ last sentence ;p
 

Alea_iacta_est

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[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION] & [MENTION=20757]solipsists[/MENTION], The reason Te-users don't trust Ti is because of the fact that it understands concepts based on subjective logic that isn't derived from the outside world, and that's why Ti is slightly more oriented to math then Te is, because mathematical reasoning is subjective logic that can't always necessarily be proven in the real world. Te users also want to apply their knowledge and do something with it, whereas Ti users will be happy just drilling their knowledge further and further deeper. From my own experience, I always feel unsure when I utilize subjective logic because every time I use it, I slowly feel like the reasoning is delineating from the real world.
 

valaki

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[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION] & [MENTION=20757]solipsists[/MENTION], The reason Te-users don't trust Ti is because of the fact that it understands concepts based on subjective logic that isn't derived from the outside world, and that's why Ti is slightly more oriented to math then Te is, because mathematical reasoning is subjective logic that can't always necessarily be proven in the real world. Te users also want to apply their knowledge and do something with it, whereas Ti users will be happy just drilling their knowledge further and further deeper. From my own experience, I always feel unsure when I utilize subjective logic because every time I use it, I slowly feel like the reasoning is delineating from the real world.

I see. How about an ESTP's Ti?

(In terms of the bolded)
 

Alea_iacta_est

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I see. How about an ESTP's Ti?

(In terms of the bolded)

Se gathers sensory data from the outside world, and Ti maps that sensory data to build deep frameworks. My guess for the ESTP would be kind of like observing a detail, and then trying to pick apart that detail and figure out exactly what it is (precision) and what role it plays in the environment. I think this is the reason why ESTPs and ISTPs especially are known as mechanics (much more so for ISTP) because they can easily observe a problem in an external system, identify the exact problem, and figure out its impact on the entire system. Don't take my word completely though, it is a mere educated guess. Might go ask some people on the SP forum.
 

valaki

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Se gathers sensory data from the outside world, and Ti maps that sensory data to build deep frameworks. My guess for the ESTP would be kind of like observing a detail, and then trying to pick apart that detail and figure out exactly what it is (precision) and what role it plays in the environment. I think this is the reason why ESTPs and ISTPs especially are known as mechanics (much more so for ISTP) because they can easily observe a problem in an external system, identify the exact problem, and figure out its impact on the entire system. Don't take my word completely though, it is a mere educated guess. Might go ask some people on the SP forum.

Yes but how is this not practical? How would a Te user take issue with the STP's use of Ti? This was my point.

Btw I'm no mechanic myself..... just never spent time on those things
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Yes but how is this not practical? How would a Te user take issue with the STP's use of Ti? This was my point.

Btw I'm no mechanic myself..... just never spent time on those things

The Te user would take issue with what would appear to be over-analysis of something from the environment. Remember that Te users unconsciously process the environment predominantly, so they don't always necessarily need to waste time classifying what they are seeing because Si and Ni are just churning out half-built and deep frameworks to be filled in and made efficient by Te. So they would get pissed off at over-analysis, the trademark of Ti.

The mechanic is just a stereotype, but it does adequately describe how the xSTP's mind works, the trouble-shooter.
 

valaki

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The Te user would take issue with what would appear to be over-analysis of something from the environment. Remember that Te users unconsciously process the environment predominantly, so they don't always necessarily need to waste time classifying what they are seeing because Si and Ni are just churning out half-built and deep frameworks to be filled in and made efficient by Te. So they would get pissed off at over-analysis, the trademark of Ti.

The mechanic is just a stereotype, but it does adequately describe how the xSTP's mind works, the trouble-shooter.

Oookay, I do know someone in my life who gets irritated a lot at my tendency to "over-analyse". By the way you described it well, I look at a detail and then if I feel like analysing it / need to analyse it, I do try to pick it apart to figure out exactly what it is etc etc. Note this only applies if it's concrete details of whatever but isn't a directly tangible object in front of me. If it is an object in front of me and I'm supposed to figure out how it works, I will not do it like that, for some reason I just don't work like that, I will instead "play around" with the object, and let it more or less unconsciously come to me, as to how to deal with it. The result can be expressed as a precise analysis, sure, but it won't be the first step in such a case. I don't know how ISTP vs ESTP gets at that. What do you think?
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Oookay, I do know someone in my life who gets irritated a lot at my tendency to "over-analyse". By the way you described it well, I look at a detail and then if I feel like analysing it / need to analyse it, I do try to pick it apart to figure out exactly what it is etc etc. Note this only applies if it's concrete details of whatever but isn't a directly tangible object in front of me. If it is an object in front of me and I'm supposed to figure out how it works, I will not do it like that, for some reason I just don't work like that, I will instead "play around" with the object, and let it more or less unconsciously come to me, as to how to deal with it. The result can be expressed as a precise analysis, sure, but it won't be the first step in such a case. I don't know how ISTP vs ESTP gets at that. What do you think?

Interesting. Tell me, would you be better at building something useful out of seemingly random parts or picking apart something in front of you to figure out how it works?
 

valaki

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Interesting. Tell me, would you be better at building something useful out of seemingly random parts or picking apart something in front of you to figure out how it works?

Randomness is not my thing so I'll pass on that one. Well if you give me an example of what kind of parts, I'll see if I can think of something to build from it. Though it's not the kind of task that would excite me to be quite honest.

And, as I said I never focused that much on the "mechanic stuff" so I don't know about picking apart something in front of me like that. I mean, I can probably do it, I just don't usually try. Well, I'm sure I can pick it apart, as for figuring out how it works, that will have to come only after the "playing around" part. This would however be a more interesting task, even if not easy, than the random one.

What does that tell you? :p
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Randomness is not my thing so I'll pass on that one. Well if you give me an example of what kind of parts, I'll see if I can think of something to build from it. Though it's not the kind of task that would excite me to be quite honest.

And, as I said I never focused that much on the "mechanic stuff" so I don't know about picking apart something in front of me like that. I mean, I can probably do it, I just don't usually try. Well, I'm sure I can pick it apart, as for figuring out how it works, that will have to come only after the "playing around" part. This would however be a more interesting task, even if not easy, than the random one.

What does that tell you? :p

It just seems that you are more in critiquing and analyzing concepts than you are analyzing what your senses are telling you, though I could most definitely be wrong.
 

valaki

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It just seems that you are more in critiquing and analyzing concepts than you are analyzing what your senses are telling you, though I could most definitely be wrong.

This is true :p if I'm looking at environment/being involved with environment, I'm not really doing much analysis consciously. Things just are. If I'm not focusing on the environment as much then I will be happy to analyse details of concepts and details of experiences.

Note I learn particularly well and quick by fusing together experience and analysis. Either I have a previously done analysis and then learn it (the thing the analysis pertains to) truly from experience, or I can try and analyse the experiences after they happened. Not *during* the experience, I just don't work like that, I don't like to detach in that way. Well perhaps for a few seconds here or there but not more. E.g. an insight could come that way though this isn't often. I'm more fine with detaching (into my mind) afterwards.

But what does that tell you about in terms of MBTI? Functions etc... ??
 

Alea_iacta_est

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This is true :p if I'm looking at environment/being involved with environment, I'm not really doing much analysis consciously. Things just are. If I'm not focusing on the environment as much then I will be happy to analyse details of concepts and details of experiences.

Note I learn particularly well and quick by fusing together experience and analysis. Either I have a previously done analysis and then learn it (the thing the analysis pertains to) truly from experience, or I can try and analyse the experiences after they happened. Not *during* the experience, I just don't work like that, I don't like to detach in that way. Well perhaps for a few seconds here or there but not more. I'm more fine with detaching (into my mind) afterwards.

But what does that tell you about in terms of MBTI? Functions etc... ??

The reason me asking was because you were coming off sort of Ne-Ti more than Se-Ti, but I don't have any concrete evidence to back that up, though the whole "Not during experience, I just don't work like that" seems like a bit more intuitive like than sensor like.
 

valaki

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Also those two tasks (build up shit from random parts vs pick apart and understand workings of things), what types/functions were they about? :p I guess the latter was Ti+Se or just ISTP? And the former?
 

valaki

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The reason me asking was because you were coming off sort of Ne-Ti more than Se-Ti, but I don't have any concrete evidence to back that up, though the whole "Not during experience, I just don't work like that" seems like a bit more intuitive like than sensor like.

Do S types analyse during the experience then?
 

Alea_iacta_est

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Do S types analyse during the experience then?

I have no clue, I'm not an S, but I would think so. I'd say that Se might be more inclined to be analyzing actions they are currently making, but you might need to find an ISTP or an ESTP to figure it out.
 

valaki

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I have no clue, I'm not an S, but I would think so. I'd say that Se might be more inclined to be analyzing actions they are currently making, but you might need to find an ISTP or an ESTP to figure it out.

But if they are analysing the actions during the action, how are they paying attention to the action in-the-moment as well? You can't be detached inside your mind on a conscious level and paying attention outside at the same time also on a conscious level
 

Alea_iacta_est

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But if they are analysing the actions during the action, how are they paying attention to the action in-the-moment as well? You can't be detached inside your mind on a conscious level and paying attention outside at the same time also on a conscious level

I'd think that some activities like trained fighting especially would require instantaneous usage of Se and Ti. Se would pick up the current body movements of the opposing person, feed the information quickly to Ti, which would then quickly make a logical decision to combat the other person's strike based on what makes sense to counter the person.
 

valaki

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I'd think that some activities like trained fighting especially would require instantaneous usage of Se and Ti. Se would pick up the current body movements of the opposing person, feed the information quickly to Ti, which would then quickly make a logical decision to combat the other person's strike based on what makes sense to counter the person.

I don't call that just "analysis". I call that "thinking on the move" and I do that just fine. It doesn't feel like detached analysis because it isn't really detached :) Maybe I dive into my mind for a sec or two but that's it at most

Maybe the sort of unconscious process that I talked about and which results in me figuring out how to manage an object after playing around with it, is also this?

Also... what about the question here?
 
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