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  1. #11
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Sorry for the unresponsiveness, I've been struggling to sort through what I might be. Not knowing bothers me more than it should.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Sorry I don't understand. You first state you have emphasis on values other than hard logic. Then you state that you actually lean towards valuing thinking. What do you value then exactly?
    I transcribed that from notes I took last year, so I may be misinterpreting it now, but I think it refers to prioritizing high morality/compassion over theoretical logic. It was in shorthand, probably worth disregarding.

    I've been reading more about the functions and I think I may have committed to Ni as my dominant function prematurely. The more I read the more accurate Ne sounds (though Ni still accounts for a good portion of my information processing), which only leaves two possible Ne-dominant types, neither of which I'd considered. The ENFP portrait sounds strikingly accurate, though I've been more reclusive and unhappy than the profile paints typical ENFPs. Another problem is the development of my Ti; ENFPs typically have very weak Ti, while I consider mine fairly strong, especially between ages 10 and 16; I have a math trophy laying around and received the highest regional score on my 6th grade placement test (not an outstanding achievement, but indicative of my function hierarchy).

    As a child I was almost certainly an INTJ--very cold, analytical, (selectively) organized, hermetic, philosophical, sometimes overly dismissive and blunt. I would spend hours holed away scribbling in a notebook or researching areas of interest. I don't know if this is helpful information, just something I think is interesting to note.

    I know it doesn't fit the model, but subjectively I feel I alternate between Ne/Fi and Ni/Ti when in the presence of others and alone, respectively. Company takes a very serious toll on my Ti and I find myself falling back on gut feelings, working backwards to support my claim with logic.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Also, I just took SimilarMinds.com's cognitive functions test:


    Te (Extroverted Thinking) (35%)
    your valuation of / adherence to logic of external systems / hierarchies / methods

    Ti (Introverted Thinking) (85%)
    your valuation of / adherence to your own internally devised logic/rational

    Ne (Extroverted Intuition) (50%)
    your valuation of / tendency towards free association and creating with external stimuli

    Ni (Introverted Intuition) (85%)
    your valuation of / tendency towards internal/original free association and creativity

    Se (Extroverted Sensing) (5%)
    your valuation of / tendency to fully experience the world unfiltered, in the moment

    Si (Introverted Sensing) (35%)
    your valuation of / focus on internal sensations and reliving past moments

    Fe (Extroverted Feeling) (60%)
    your valuation of / adherence to external morals, ethics, traditions, customs, groups

    Fi (Introverted Feeling) (90%)
    your valuation of / adherence to the sanctity of your own feelings / ideals / sentiment

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    based on your results your type is likely - infp

    __________________________________________________ ____________

    Ne vs. Ni is my current issue. In some situations I rely very heavily on Ne, but left to myself revert to Ni. What do you make of the combination of Ni, Ne, Ti and Fi?

  3. #13
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    Wow no idea. You sound like some heavy introvert for sure :P 5% Se huh...

  4. #14
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    While the cognitive function tests are nice, they aren't accurate, as you have already encountered.

    Whenever I take it, for instance, Ti, Ni, and Te are always within a point of each other.

    You have to look at yourself objectively and figure out which one of these functions fits you the best. A good way to rule out some dominant functions is by looking at functions like Si and Ni. Both of those two functions are handled completely by the unconscious. If you don't experience any sort of vision to solve a problem without having to really think, then you probably aren't an Ni-Te (INTJ). If you don't experience any sort of insight about people and their emotions, then you probably aren't Ni-Fe (INFJ). If you don't unconsciously recognize that some things seem different than they were before, be that from data (Te) or other's emotions (Fe), you probably aren't an Si-Je*. Those two functions are the easiest to rule out because they will seem a little alien to people who don't predominantly utilize them, especially Ni.

    Ni : unconscious visions or insights about a problem/person via *Te or Fe respectively.

    Si : unconscious instinct that something seems off about a problem/person via Te or Fe respectively. (You might have that one friend or whatever that notices something is off. They'll be the ones that say "has this always been like that?")

    Ne: Connection-making process that while not always controlled is still noticed when doing its work (unlike its introverted counterpart), i.e. this house is red therefore it might be composed of brick that might have been transported from a warehouse that might also be made from brick and etc.

    Se: Observing the present to notice details. Looking at only what is in front of you presently and making a decision with this data via Ti or Fi.

    Te: Looking at the evidence in the outside world and making decisions based on observations made through Si or Ni. If you have a nagging feeling of wanting to apply your knowledge gathered with Ni or Si to something, you probably use this a lot.

    Fe: Also looking at the evidence in the outside world but much more person-oriented. If you plan ahead to make people feel comfortable and accommodated based on data gathered on the emotions of other people through Si or Ni, then you might use Fe.

    Ti: Using internal logic to justify and make decisions about observations made in the outside world via Ne or Se. "How does this make sense to me?" If you are one of those people that sees an event and immediately have to make sense of it in your mind using some kind of rationalized logic, you probably use Ti. When paired with Se, Ti makes sense of what's being perceived by the senses: "Why does that look this way?" "Why does that taste like that?" "Why does that sound like that?". When paired with Ne, Ti makes sense of possibilities posed by Ne " Just how possible (answering the random shit Ne is feeding) is this connection? Why does this seem like this?".

    Fi: Using internal values to make decisions and justify situations in the outside world via Se or Ne. "What does this make me feel?". This is easy to explain when Fi is working with Se, as you have scenarios like "How do I feel about how this looks?" "How do I feel about how this sounds?". With Ne, Fi is trying to understand how certain connections/possibilities might feel to the user. Ne sees the connection, Fi tries to make sense of the connection using a value system. "This is connected to this, so how do I feel about it?"

    You have to look inside yourself and figure out which ones you seem to actually use, and keep in mind that some of these functions are shadowed and can be as developed as their counterparts. If you are an Fi dom, then you have Fe as your dominant shadow function which means it is very developed along with Fi. You just have a preference for Fi over Fe because Fe might seem "silly".

  5. #15
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    While the cognitive function tests are nice, they aren't accurate, as you have already encountered.

    Whenever I take it, for instance, Ti, Ni, and Te are always within a point of each other.

    You have to look at yourself objectively and figure out which one of these functions fits you the best. A good way to rule out some dominant functions is by looking at functions like Si and Ni. Both of those two functions are handled completely by the unconscious. If you don't experience any sort of vision to solve a problem without having to really think, then you probably aren't an Ni-Te (INTJ). If you don't experience any sort of insight about people and their emotions, then you probably aren't Ni-Fe (INFJ). If you don't unconsciously recognize that some things seem different than they were before, be that from data (Te) or other's emotions (Fe), you probably aren't an Si-Je*. Those two functions are the easiest to rule out because they will seem a little alien to people who don't predominantly utilize them, especially Ni.
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Could you expand on the Ni-Te visions you refer to? Generally when expressing an idea I do visualize (sometimes hazily) a model I can describe, though this hinges on my mastery of the material. One reason I was initially leaning toward Ni was its connection to visuospatial learning styles (I think I read that in one of the threads here).

    I am fairly emotionally perceptive; I read body language and facial expressions fairly accurately and use that information to draw conclusions about the individual's recent past and future. Whether this aptitude is abnormally high or not I have no idea--I could be especially bad at it and overvaluing the progress I've made.

    Regarding Si-Je, what would be a Te example of this? I assume an Fe example would be change in demeanor.

    Your example of Ne doesn't resonate with me, but I do draw conjectures and operate logically with those if they seem likely.

    I'll read more on shadow functions and comment on that when I have something meaningful to say.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Could you expand on the Ni-Te visions you refer to? Generally when expressing an idea I do visualize (sometimes hazily) a model I can describe, though this hinges on my mastery of the material. One reason I was initially leaning toward Ni was its connection to visuospatial learning styles (I think I read that in one of the threads here).

    I am fairly emotionally perceptive; I read body language and facial expressions fairly accurately and use that information to draw conclusions about the individual's recent past and future. Whether this aptitude is abnormally high or not I have no idea--I could be especially bad at it and overvaluing the progress I've made.

    Regarding Si-Je, what would be a Te example of this? I assume an Fe example would be change in demeanor.

    Your example of Ne doesn't resonate with me, but I do draw conjectures and operate logically with those if they seem likely.

    I'll read more on shadow functions and comment on that when I have something meaningful to say.
    Ni is If-then style thinking when manifested by Te (simulation/what's going to happen next)
    Ne is If-therefore style thinking when manifested by Ti (connecting/how everything's related)

    Ni visions are generally unconsciously processed, meaning that you can't see the calculations working in your mind like decision making functions such as Ti and Te. Usually in the INTJ (Ni-Te), the INTJ will absorb organized information from the external world (Te) and then unconsciously process the shit out of it with Ni, and when Ni decides to reveal the results (which is usually pretty quickly) this creates what people who don't use Ni call "the Ah-ha moment". Really it's just looking at the data (Te) and instantly seeing a plan to follow (Ni).

    Yes, most Ni doms and auxs are visuospatial learners, every wonder why ISTJs and ESTJs would beat you in high-school even though you were smarter than them (/rant)? They're the mascot for audio-sequential learners.

    INTJs can be adept at reading facial expressions and body language (because I do it), but when we plan out how to deal with what the other person is attempting to say/hint at we are much more blunt and direct than our INFJ buddies because of Te.

    Si-Te specifically in the ISTJ would represent itself as absorbing the data from the external environment like INTJs do, but instead of seeing a plan instantly, they instantly compare the information with past information from their memories and then have to manually/consciously figure out their plan through Te which will also execute the plan, where INTJs have already processed the information unconsciously and seen the plan that they are going to execute via Te.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Ni is If-then style thinking when manifested by Te (simulation/what's going to happen next)
    Ne is If-therefore style thinking when manifested by Ti (connecting/how everything's related)

    Ni visions are generally unconsciously processed, meaning that you can't see the calculations working in your mind like decision making functions such as Ti and Te. Usually in the INTJ (Ni-Te), the INTJ will absorb organized information from the external world (Te) and then unconsciously process the shit out of it with Ni, and when Ni decides to reveal the results (which is usually pretty quickly) this creates what people who don't use Ni call "the Ah-ha moment". Really it's just looking at the data (Te) and instantly seeing a plan to follow (Ni).

    Yes, most Ni doms and auxs are visuospatial learners, every wonder why ISTJs and ESTJs would beat you in high-school even though you were smarter than them (/rant)? They're the mascot for audio-sequential learners.

    INTJs can be adept at reading facial expressions and body language (because I do it), but when we plan out how to deal with what the other person is attempting to say/hint at we are much more blunt and direct than our INFJ buddies because of Te.

    Si-Te specifically in the ISTJ would represent itself as absorbing the data from the external environment like INTJs do, but instead of seeing a plan instantly, they instantly compare the information with past information from their memories and then have to manually/consciously figure out their plan through Te which will also execute the plan, where INTJs have already processed the information unconsciously and seen the plan that they are going to execute via Te.
    Hmm... is it possible to be a tactful INTJ? I usually address what I see directly, but in a manner that incorporates and respects the emotional state of that person (unless I find them disarming, but that's 1/20000, in which case I'll be very oblique).

    I know my Ti and Fi are both well-developed, and my P/J preference is minimal; I hate the looming cloud of indecision but equally hate being caged by careless decisions. I often succumb to analysis paralysis and veer toward avoidance. That's why I'm not an astronaut. :c

    Though my Ti and Fi are both stronger than Te, I think the INTJ model best describes how I learn and problem solve. Tentatively. I have an awful memory for what I perceive as trivia, though, which I think sets me apart from most INTJs.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    Hmm... is it possible to be a tactful INTJ? I usually address what I see directly, but in a manner that incorporates and respects the emotional state of that person (unless I find them disarming, but that's 1/20000, in which case I'll be very oblique).

    I know my Ti and Fi are both well-developed, and my P/J preference is minimal; I hate the looming cloud of indecision but equally hate being caged by careless decisions. I often succumb to analysis paralysis and veer toward avoidance. That's why I'm not an astronaut. :c

    Though my Ti and Fi are both stronger than Te, I think the INTJ model best describes how I learn and problem solve. Tentatively. I have an awful memory for what I perceive as trivia, though, which I think sets me apart from most INTJs.
    Trivia isn't really tied to any type. While Te is an information hog, it wants relevant information that can be applied to the real world.

    I'm a pretty socially-adept INTJ unlike the stereotypes. MBTI JCF simply tells you how you deal with things in the world. If you want to see how you behave socially, you might want to check out a behavioral typology system that deals with interpersonal relations like Socionics. In that system I'm an ILE (Which very, very roughly translates to ENTP in MBTI). It's entirely possible to be a tactful INTJ.

    Te doms or aux types generally hate not making decisions or leaving decisions for the last minute. There is a whole "Get it over with" mentality to it.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Trivia isn't really tied to any type. While Te is an information hog, it wants relevant information that can be applied to the real world.

    I'm a pretty socially-adept INTJ unlike the stereotypes. MBTI JCF simply tells you how you deal with things in the world. If you want to see how you behave socially, you might want to check out a behavioral typology system that deals with interpersonal relations like Socionics. In that system I'm an ILE (Which very, very roughly translates to ENTP in MBTI). It's entirely possible to be a tactful INTJ.

    Te doms or aux types generally hate not making decisions or leaving decisions for the last minute. There is a whole "Get it over with" mentality to it.
    Socionics is next in line. I change dramatically in the presence of others, so I'm eager to add it to my label collection, round things out.

    In matters in which I'm personally invested I make decisions as soon as physically possible, or at least paint a gradient of desire and likelihood, but with imposed tasks, such as those in public schooling, I only work effectively when I know any other action will result in failure (to live up to my standards).

    Anyway, I'll read more on the functions and come back with something constructive.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    While the cognitive function tests are nice, they aren't accurate, as you have already encountered.

    Whenever I take it, for instance, Ti, Ni, and Te are always within a point of each other.
    And why does that make a test less accurate? Does the function model dictate reality? I do not think so. And in any case if you are INTJ, you would be strong shadow Ti anyway, no? So considering that, your Ti-Ni-Te result is pretty spot on. I usually get Se, Ti, Te in some order and I really can't say that it isn't accurate enough. ;p It's quite reminiscent of your results structurally, just with different functions


    Si : unconscious instinct that something seems off about a problem/person via Te or Fe respectively. (You might have that one friend or whatever that notices something is off. They'll be the ones that say "has this always been like that?")
    Are they not able to consciously tell which details changed? :o


    Yes, most Ni doms and auxs are visuospatial learners, every wonder why ISTJs and ESTJs would beat you in high-school even though you were smarter than them (/rant)? They're the mascot for audio-sequential learners.
    ??? I don't understand why it matters what your learning style is, in terms of what grades you get in high school.

    Btw where is that thread about the visuospatial learning? I would like to see it


    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    In matters in which I'm personally invested I make decisions as soon as physically possible, or at least paint a gradient of desire and likelihood, but with imposed tasks, such as those in public schooling, I only work effectively when I know any other action will result in failure (to live up to my standards).
    Gradient of desire? What's that? Any other action, do you mean doing things other than what you should be doing?

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