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  1. #11
    Member Debaser's Avatar
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    It's not true in my case, @MasterOfAwesome. If I judged more than I perceived, I would be a J. The fact is there is no way of measuring whether one uses "more N" or "more T" unless you are talking about the strength of that person's preference. For instance, the difference between my preference for intuition over sensing is greater than that between my preference for thinking over feeling. Yet I definitely prefer N and T, and I am also an introvert with a strong preference for P over J. Therefore I am INTP. The fact that my N preference is higher than my T preference does not change that.

    And I'll tell you what my problem with the functions is: They are not supposed to be used as a typing method. They are to be used to look under the hood after you find your type and possibly explain how you work, not to find your type in the first place. The functions are nothing more than symbols that are supposed to explain theoretical motives for behavior. They do not actually manifest as distinct behaviors, as one would have you believe when he says something ridiculous like he "uses" Ne as if it were some kind of tool he had conscious access to. No, he doesn't. You don't "use" functions like that. If anything, they are the things running in the background and they all work together to form a type. They aren't separate tools you draw out and use individually, not things you use "more" or "less" of. You think when the situation calls for it, sense when it calls for it, etc.

    As if boxing yourself into 1 of 16 4-letter types doesn't leave enough margin of error, there is no way you are going to be able to find yourself perfectly and rigidly matching up with a distinct line of 4 abstract cognitive functions in a deadlocked "order." If it were that simple, then I as an INTP could never do anything attributed to the "Se" function because I don't "have" it. But that's not what it means and it's not how it works. The functions are often taken too literally and seen as more than what they are. So you understand that my problem is not with function theory itself so much as its misuse. (Though I am skeptical about the reliability of function theory itself, I do believe it can be useful when taken for what it is and nothing more.)

    My point is that if the OP is an ambivert, that's what he is. If he's an introvert, that's what he is. And he shouldn't feel that is wrong because it isn't perfectly consistent with a strict interpretation of function theory that cannot possibly be perfectly consistent for the billions of people on Earth. It's a SELF-improvement tool after all. So if it doesn't work for the self, what good is it for?

  2. #12
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    And I'll tell you what my problem with the functions is: They are not supposed to be used as a typing method. They are to be used to look under the hood after you find your type and possibly explain how you work, not to find your type in the first place. The functions are nothing more than symbols that are supposed to explain theoretical motives for behavior. They do not actually manifest as distinct behaviors, as one would have you believe when he says something ridiculous like he "uses" Ne as if it were some kind of tool he had conscious access to. No, he doesn't. You don't "use" functions like that. If anything, they are the things running in the background and they all work together to form a type. They aren't separate tools you draw out and use individually, not things you use "more" or "less" of. You think when the situation calls for it, sense when it calls for it, etc.
    Of course they do not manifest as behaviors; I do not think any personality student worth their salt would argue that. When one says "uses", they mean "employs that pattern of thinking". It may very well not be a conscious choice, but it may also very well be identifiable. If a person tends to think more along the lines of expansive metaphor than symbolic distillation, one would "use more Ne than Ni". I do not think it is particularly hard to identify those two patterns.

    As if boxing yourself into 1 of 16 4-letter types doesn't leave enough margin of error, there is no way you are going to be able to find yourself perfectly and rigidly matching up with a distinct line of 4 abstract cognitive functions in a deadlocked "order." If it were that simple, then I as an INTP could never do anything attributed to the "Se" function because I don't "have" it. But that's not what it means and it's not how it works. The functions are often taken too literally and seen as more than what they are. So you understand that my problem is not with function theory itself so much as its misuse. (Though I am skeptical about the reliability of function theory itself, I do believe it can be useful when taken for what it is and nothing more.)
    I would not be in the camp of those who believe you don't have/use Se as an INTP. Again, it's just a pattern of thinking you employ. S indicates concrete focus; e indicates external to the mind. Are you focusing on concrete things outside the mind? You are "using" Se. To me function theory does not seem particularly more strict than the MBTI, just having a richer structure behind it.

    As for the "strictness" - the order is not about relative usage, but "role". The first function will serve as the leader; the second as its helper. It does not matter which function one uses more frequently or with more skill, though both will typically be the case. For an INTP, Ti will lead and Ne will help/guide, hence greater focus on logic. For an ENTP, Ne will lead, and Ti will help/guide, hence greater focus on outward innovation. I assume you will probably not be fond of the leading/helping terminology either, but it is metaphorical for processes augmenting one another. The rest of the functions fall into place following the first based again on role, not on skill or frequency. So the "strict order" that many perceive is not truly a strict order at all, just a theorized system of cognitive balance based on Jungian archetypes. Here is @Eric B's page explaining those relations in greater depth. The reliability of the whole thing is questionable, but that is what a theory is, after all. If it was 100% true we'd just call it reality and be done with it.

    I guess I just find it funny that you are so hard on what is just another theory. Again it seems to me like if MoA desires more self-insight, he shouldn't be bound by what should properly be used or not. He should use whatever works. Looking at things through a different lens can give a clearer perspective. If he wants to identify as ENTP and TiNe, or like you as INTP and NeTi, it doesn't matter to me. Like you said, it's really all up to whether it works for him or not.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    I don't buy this "If you use 'Ne' more than 'Ti'" or "If you intuit more than you think" you are an ENTP crap. It's crap. You are an extrovert if you are an extrovert and you are an introvert if you are an introvert. That's the way I see it anyway. Don't overthink it, and definitely don't take the functions too literally. If you do, you will end up going down rabbit holes and looping around in circles, unsure of your type. The fact is that your type code is supposed to hit on what is most characteristic of you MOST of the time. The only person it helps is you after all; why go after a type that doesn't really describe you? You're not going to find 1 out of 16 boxes to perfectly fit you like a glove anyway. If someone was 100% of every letter, they'd be nuts. They would be a caricature, not a person. Especially when it comes to I/E (the least important letter in my opinion), there are such things as ambiverts you know. You might be one. Or you might just be an introvert who sometimes acts more extroverted or vice versa. So I say, call yourself whatever feels most comfortable. Be it INTP, ENTP or even ANTP. But then, I don't worship Jung or follow function dogma the way some people do. I find the system works best when you actually make it so that the 4 letters you have are the closest matches to how you are most of the time. So what I would do is take a breather, go back to the fundamentals, and ask yourself which of these sets describes you better most of the time:

    - I am seen as “outgoing” or as a “people person.”
    - I feel comfortable in groups and like working in them.
    - I have a wide range of friends and know lots of people.
    - I sometimes jump too quickly into an activity and don’t allow enough time to think it over.
    - Before I start a project, I sometimes forget to stop and get clear on what I want to do and why.

    OR

    - I am seen as “reflective” or “reserved.”
    - I feel comfortable being alone and like things I can do on my own.
    - I prefer to know just a few people well.
    - I sometimes spend too much time reflecting and don’t move into action quickly enough.
    - I sometimes forget to check with the outside world to see if my ideas really fit the experience.

    If the first, ENTP. If the second, INTP. I really think the system is a lot more reliable if you treat it as that simple.
    Not that simple for everyone... Not for me. Guess we do need to introduce A besides E and I :p


    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    It's not true in my case, @MasterOfAwesome. If I judged more than I perceived, I would be a J. The fact is there is no way of measuring whether one uses "more N" or "more T" unless you are talking about the strength of that person's preference. For instance, the difference between my preference for intuition over sensing is greater than that between my preference for thinking over feeling. Yet I definitely prefer N and T, and I am also an introvert with a strong preference for P over J. Therefore I am INTP. The fact that my N preference is higher than my T preference does not change that.

    And I'll tell you what my problem with the functions is: They are not supposed to be used as a typing method. They are to be used to look under the hood after you find your type and possibly explain how you work, not to find your type in the first place. The functions are nothing more than symbols that are supposed to explain theoretical motives for behavior. They do not actually manifest as distinct behaviors, as one would have you believe when he says something ridiculous like he "uses" Ne as if it were some kind of tool he had conscious access to. No, he doesn't. You don't "use" functions like that. If anything, they are the things running in the background and they all work together to form a type. They aren't separate tools you draw out and use individually, not things you use "more" or "less" of. You think when the situation calls for it, sense when it calls for it, etc.

    As if boxing yourself into 1 of 16 4-letter types doesn't leave enough margin of error, there is no way you are going to be able to find yourself perfectly and rigidly matching up with a distinct line of 4 abstract cognitive functions in a deadlocked "order." If it were that simple, then I as an INTP could never do anything attributed to the "Se" function because I don't "have" it. But that's not what it means and it's not how it works. The functions are often taken too literally and seen as more than what they are. So you understand that my problem is not with function theory itself so much as its misuse. (Though I am skeptical about the reliability of function theory itself, I do believe it can be useful when taken for what it is and nothing more.)

    My point is that if the OP is an ambivert, that's what he is. If he's an introvert, that's what he is. And he shouldn't feel that is wrong because it isn't perfectly consistent with a strict interpretation of function theory that cannot possibly be perfectly consistent for the billions of people on Earth. It's a SELF-improvement tool after all. So if it doesn't work for the self, what good is it for?
    You sound like you'd be happier with socionics than with mbti functions :P

    INTp there uses Se, quite preferred :p

    Anyway just as others said, I don't get why you think the letter preferences are any better than function preferences. It's somewhat simpler yes, though trust me it doesn't mean that I can easily decide my letters. Someone may have trouble with functions more than with the dichotomies (letters) and someone may be having the opposite issue. Example, I can more easily see Ti than Te in myself than whether I'm I or E. You see yourself as INTP easily but you have a problem with INTP's MBTI functions. That's okay, the dichotomies are not 100% correlated with the functions. Thus, J/P preference will not tell you what functions you have. E.g. one can be an INTJ and still prefer Ti over Ni or Te, etc etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    In general ENTPs have a more exploratory outlook, while INTPs have a more intensely logical one. Both of course are keen to watertightness of logic, but ENTP is more focused on using their logic to innovate and discover the novel, while INTP is more into breaking systems down, analyzing them, and rebuilding them to be better. ENTPs are more get-up-and-go while INTPs are more driven. ENTPs are more enterprising while INTPs are more perseverant. ENTPs prioritize getting their ideas out into the world. INTPs prioritize perfecting what they're working on.
    That's a nice way to put things... Have you ever seen anyone though who *switches* between which "mode" they are more into at a given moment? Modes of INTP and ENTP (or other type pair with I/E difference)

  4. #14
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    INTPs are rational types, ENTPs are irrational types.

    A rational type is one that has a judging function first: Te, Ti, Fe, Fi.
    An irrational type is one that has a perceiving function first: Ni, Ne, Si, Se
    (The reason for this is actually because MBTI wanted to make j/p an organized/sporadic dichotomy rather than a rational/irrational dichotomy, and that's why Socionics's INTp is correlated with INTJ in MBTI, because having Ni as your dominant function makes you a perceiving and irrational type)

    If you process more information and see more possibilities and connections more than you attempt to understand concepts, you're probably an ENTP. On the flip side, if you are more focused on understanding concepts than seeing possibilities, you're probably an INTP.

    Also, take a look at this highly theoretical but interesting work on each 4 type's thinking styles. It's on a Socionics forum and it is Gulenko, but it might still apply to MBTI types. Scroll down for Casual-Determinant Cognition (number 4) (which is for ILE or ENTp/ENTP), and Holographic Cognition (number 6) (which is for LII or INTj/INTP). Might be worth a peek. Yes I realized I forgot the link.
    http://forum.socionix.com/topic/3855...nitive-styles/

  5. #15
    Wandering... Emperor Enigma's Avatar
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    The main reason why I doubt I'm an ENTP (or Ne-dom for that matter) is because I do not excel at generating ideas, unless I'm provided with external stimuli. For example, if I'm included in a group of friends responsible for organizing a party and someone asks me, "So, give me some ideas", my mind will go blank. I need some sort of specification because there are so many things that are possible. I can't tell them to arrange for a syndicate of terrorists to barge in and start shooting the balloons and get the DJ to operate a sound system using electromagnetic waves, can I? What kind of ideas do you want? Anything is possible. I need some sort of background. Ask me to supply ideas just like that and I'll fail. Give me just one sentence and I can give you many ideas which will later expand to other ideas.

    An ENTP is supposed to be the archetypal idea generator. I'm terrible at coming up with ideas on the spot, unless I'm given enough information. I spend more time researching and looking for patterns then I do brainstorming.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfAwesome View Post
    The main reason why I doubt I'm an ENTP (or Ne-dom for that matter) is because I do not excel at generating ideas, unless I'm provided with external stimuli.
    Well that, I don't generate ideas even when I'm provided with stimuli. So I guess you do still have strong Ne.


    For example, if I'm included in a group of friends responsible for organizing a party and someone asks me, "So, give me some ideas", my mind will go blank. I need some sort of specification because there are so many things that are possible. I can't tell them to arrange for a syndicate of terrorists to barge in and start shooting the balloons and get the DJ to operate a sound system using electromagnetic waves, can I? What kind of ideas do you want? Anything is possible. I need some sort of background. Ask me to supply ideas just like that and I'll fail. Give me just one sentence and I can give you many ideas which will later expand to other ideas.
    I don't understand. Are you trying to say that you are perfectly able to come up with such crazy ideas as the example here, without any effort, just not practical ideas unless you are given information?

    If you can generate many ideas from one single sentence, you've got really strong Ne.


    An ENTP is supposed to be the archetypal idea generator. I'm terrible at coming up with ideas on the spot, unless I'm given enough information. I spend more time researching and looking for patterns then I do brainstorming.
    Okay but when you are researching things, are you into the logical patterns more, is this what you are trying to say?

  7. #17
    Wandering... Emperor Enigma's Avatar
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    Turns out I might just be an INTP, if I compare my functions with the descriptions of how the dominant, auxiliary, tertiary and inferior functions work together (also, taking the Beebe's model into account). Perhaps I was unconsciously developing my auxiliary function for the past month or so. The way the Beebe's model described the tertiary function is almost exactly similar to how Si functions in my case. And yet, I also resemble an ENTP in certain aspects. I'll still do more research, though.

    When I research, I just absorb the information and compare it with the storehouse of information entrenched in my mind and other bits of data that randomly come to my mind. I keep making comparison of different contexts, investigating for relationships, patterns and interconnections. If I see A and B, I think about how they can be related via C and D. Don't know if that makes sense. I do get approached for my ideas and insights, but I don't identify myself in the process of brainstorming. I'm more into looking for patterns and doing lots of research. Supposedly Ne generates ideas and looks for patterns, alternative scenarios and double meanings. I do the latter very well, but I'm not so proficient in the former.

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    I'm also wrestling with the possibility that I may in fact be an extravert.

    I believe I place equal priority or emphasis on finding possibilities and understanding concepts. It really depends on the day of the week.

    I can't really see myself as an extraverted person socially, but others seem to see it. My boss thought I was crazy when I once told him I am shy and introverted.

    Interesting people or people with interesting things to say draw me out of my cocoon.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfAwesome View Post
    Supposedly Ne generates ideas and looks for patterns, alternative scenarios and double meanings.
    Yes!

  10. #20
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    In conversation with others, do you often find yourself saying, "that might also be taken to mean _______..." in reference to something the other person says, or are you more likely to simply think of the alternative meaning but keep it to yourself?

    Also, do you display a really strong talent for clever word play and a quick wit that is easy to tap into most of the time, or is your word play/witty response something that might occur to you later and you only wish you'd thought of it during the conversation?

    I think an INTP is likely to be slightly more reserved, perhaps often thinking of a million clever or intelligent things they could've said but didn't during a conversation, whereas an ENTP might be more likely to have that arsenal of words ready to go, on the spot.

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