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  1. #61
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    ^^I have a hard time relating to the above description of Se as a secondary function, @Nights and Days.^^

    In general, I'm finding Ne-Si easier to identify with my own experiences and ways of perceiving and interpreting the world.

    I think Ne is my auxiliary.
    Yeah, no way are you Se aux. Visual/hands-on doesn't automatically equal Se. I'm the same way with physical stuff. I think it has more to do with extroverted perceiving than anything.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yeah, no way are you Se aux. Visual/hands-on doesn't automatically equal Se. I'm the same way with physical stuff. I think it has more to do with extroverted perceiving than anything.
    I think the distinction between Ti-Ne and Ti-Se is this: the Ti-Se wants to learn how something works with the main goal being some real world application of their knowledge. The Ti-Ne wants to learn how something works for the sake of knowing how something works.
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  3. #63

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    I just took the socionics test at www.sociotype.com and was typed ILI-INTp (NiTe), which pretty much contradicts my MBTI type. That said, this is the first time I'd read the ILI description and it described me almost in a nutshell.



    Introverted Intuition (Ni, Ni)

    Introverted intuition in ILIs is predominantly characterized by well developed imaginative abilities and mental wanderings. ILI often spend a great deal of time simply thinking and may spend excessive amounts of time in their mind. Most ILIs somehow manage to spend most of their time in their minds regardless of the responsibilities with which they are burdened. This mental focus can be manifest by reflecting on scenarios, on pondering bodies of information, and assorted concepts of interest. They may be prone to excessive day dreaming, in creation of intricate inner worlds or universes, or in mentally replaying elements of their own personal experience. ILIs may even have novelistic tendencies where they create intricate plots, characters, and places, though many ILIs may be generally unmotivated to display such creativity. However, ILIs are not always inclined to share their imaginative tendencies or thoughts with others.

    The mind of an ILI is an oasis of sorts where knowledge is treated as a toy or even a vehicle that allows them to visit complex mental landscapes that are shaped and continually revised by new information. Nonetheless, an ILI is likely to find the process of accumulating new information tiresome and requiring too much of their energy; consequently, new information is often accumulated and updated in a rather lethargic, periodic, and occasionally incomplete fashion.

    ILIs are often stereotypically represented as reclusive scholars, philosophers, scientists, artists, seers, and sages. The ILI, with their often unusual perceptions, may come across as unreachable, esoteric eccentrics. Because ILIs are confident about analyzing the implications of the knowledge that they have gathered, ILIs often appear perceptive, especially in fields of interest, and commonly tend to view the ideas of others with skepticism and scrutiny. ILIs may tend perceive others' intellectual contributions as deeply misguided or limited in scope, and may hold the viewpoint that many people do not know what they're talking about on a particular topic of interest.

    ILIs predict inevitable disaster not altogether infrequently. This type of fatalism is spurned by their ability to see the negative in anything, which has its roots in the ILI's general dislike of expressing or reinforcing positive emotions. To an ILI, it may be easier to predict pessimistic results in order to avoid an unpleasant emotional reaction. Likewise, the ILI's sense of general self doubt leads him to be very conservative in his general outlook; why unnecessarily subject oneself to the uncertainty of possible disappointment?

    ILIs typically exhibit a general detachment from day-to-day affairs. While an ILI might devote a great deal of time to his inner thoughts, very little attention is likely to be paid to such tasks as household maintenance or cleanliness, which the ILI sees as trivial matters not deserving of his time or effort.

    ILIs can, in certain situations, act very tentatively. In many situations they are inclined to hesitate prior to taking any action or making important decisions. They may commonly be pervasively plagued by gnawing doubts on any topic that they contemplate. They may also prefer to observe and gather an understanding of a situation rather than actively participate. The ILI's restraint complements the hyperactivity of his dual, the SEE.

    Extroverted Logic (Te, Te)

    ILIs place great importance on factual accuracy and a basic understanding of how things work. Their views and perceptions naturally take into account any new factual information. For this reason, ILI's are often characterized by a nagging and constant sense of doubt, contradiction, and misinformation. They tend to be rather skeptical of other people's positions, and even frequently tend to question their own position. In groups the ILI will often question the validity of information being exchanged. Likewise, ILIs sometimes use a mocking and aggressive tone if they believe that the information being presented is wrong or absurd. ILIs can also be scrupulous in removing errors in facts and statistical data, especially in undertakings that they consider as high priorities.

    A sense of the efficiency of the goings-on in an ILI's life is a prerequisite of sorts for the peace of an ILI. This manifests very differently in ILIs from SLIs; the latter are much more likely to be proactive about making their physical environment comfortable and managed with an efficient use of resources. By contrast, ILIs are largely indifferent about their physical surroundings, and their desire for efficient allocation of resources may extend to less tangible forms, such as the allocation of resources in a game or real world political (ideological) scenario, or the efficiency of a computer program or corresponding piece of code. An ILI may demonstrate such perfectionistic tendencies most conspicuously in such situations where they can work out the details in their head or on paper.

    ILIs may differ significantly from Te dominant types in that they may not see it as critical to channel their energy on direct actions to achieve practical and societal gain, and indeed often do not even pursue the accumulation of new information very actively. ILIs may not directly associate their knowledge with any given purpose rather than to further their own understanding. They are also not very proactive at getting things done in the real world. While ILIs do recognize the necessity of gathering knowledge required for their day to day functioning -- forms, maps, directions -- they may develop a chronic habit of disinterestedly and lazily spurning such menial errands (especially if they need to physically talk to someone else to do something; it may be somewhat easier for them to simply do their errands if the relevant information merely requires looking up on the internet, or is otherwise easily accessible without bothering anyone).

    Often ILIs have a deep factual understanding of subjects or specialized fields of interest which they find interesting or care about. Sometimes ILIs perceive the real-world occurrences around them, such as the daily tedium of work or school, through the lens created to understand the information that they care about most, although they may choose not to share this perception with others. They often have little to contribute in many social situations, but when the topic of their interest comes around they may tend to be the center of attention, disseminating the information of their expertise.

    ILIs can often be highly critical of others' ideas and actions. Typically this is because others' ideas violate the ILI's understanding of the facts, or because ILIs see more efficient or workable solutions. ILIs often channel their energy towards constructive criticism because they frequently lack the initiative to take decisive action themselves. They may also channel their criticism into humor typically coated with irony, cynicism, witticisms, and sarcasm. Like LIEs, they may be inclined to see others around them as essentially ignorant or incompetent, and sarcastic responses directed towards individuals whose ideas they see as foolish can be commonplace.

    Super-ego block

    Introverted Sensing (Si, Si)

    ILIs generally place moderate to minimal importance on such matters as cleanliness, comfort, and sensory stimuli. Some ILIs may perceive these elements as a distraction. It is not atypical of ILIs to be completely uninterested by and unable to find any value in something such as a piece of fine artwork. Different ILIs respond to different such artistic stimuli in different ways; for example, an ILI might scorn painting as being worthless but possess sufficient background to enjoy other media, such as sculpture or music.

    ILIs are often uncertain about the messages that their own body sends them. An ILI might feel some irregularity in their own body and be unsure as to its significance in the overall functioning of the body. An ILI will seek to determine the consequence of such stimuli through their own understanding of the functioning of the human body -- often with minimal success at determining the true cause, and often blowing things significantly out of proportion. An ILI's sense of self doubt may lead to such assumptions as the presence of a brain tumor as the result of a mere headache. In contrast to Si types, ILIs are significantly less adept at making active adjustments to their lifestyle to correct these minor ailments.

    ILIs are very capable of placing a moderate life focus on maintaining their physical comfort. ILIs often construct a lifestyle based on various activities which feed their own intellectual stimulation; though attention to maintaining comfortable surroundings is likely to be ignored insomuch as it interferes with the ILI's deep interests, ILIs generally will not ignore their own comfort entirely, as some attentiveness to it goes hand in hand with their inactive lifestyle. However, in doing so, ILIs often still neglect the world around them and become consistently mired in their own inertia, and are liable to perceive something as missing.

    ILIs often feel very hesitant and resistant towards lifestyle changes that threaten the commodiously constructed surroundings that they create for themselves. Nobody is better suited to opening the ILI for change than the hyperactive SEE, whose constant activity is perceived by the ILI as refreshingly active.

    Extroverted Ethics (Fe, Fe)

    ILIs are typically out of touch with expressing their emotional states. They are often seen as cold, unresponsive, and undesiring of human contact (which is often not the case). As a consequence, ILIs tend to be somewhat reclusive and often feel out of touch with their social surroundings. The rules of social "games" are often not naturally understood by ILIs. The are often unconfident and uneasy in social settings, especially those in which they feel that are expected to abide by social conventions that they have little connection to such as tribesmanship or purposeless joviality. Additionally, ILIs tend to regard the development of trust with others with significant anxiety, fearing that their inner world or antisocial tendencies will be unfavorably looked upon by others, and that most of the good will and friendliness they see in others is a pretense of social interaction rather than an expression of genuine emotional reactions. Often ILIs eschew many social situations and neglect emotional association with groups, instead seeking deep emotional connections with individuals.

    ILIs are often seen as especially negative, overly critical, and sometimes harsh in their judgments. This is in part because ILIs -- when serious -- tend to communicate in a direct, straightforward manner. They sometimes are unaware of others' reactions to their ideas and may avoid sugar-coating them. Many ILIs see their criticism as constructive and believe that they would be doing others no good by withholding their ideas. Because of their incessant criticism and negativism, ILIs are sometimes seen as haughty or arrogant.

    Super-id block

    Extroverted Sensing (Se, Se)

    ILIs are often characterized by their inertia. If left to their own devices, ILIs may choose to do relatively little to interact with the outside world. When they do interact with the outside world, ILIs often find their activities to be empty and unfulfilling. To ILIs, life is often characterized by periods of stimulation. For the ILI, however, true stimulation is often spontaneous, and interludes between periods of stimulation are often characterized by tedium, inertia, and apathy. ILIs are often not very adept at finding new areas of interest, and may seek to continue to reproduce past experiences instead of moving on to new things. In order to break out of this cycle, ILIs require an outside stimulus of spontaneity and activity. With such a degree of spontaneity introduced into their lives, the tedium and perceived meaninglessness is replaced by a constant state of activity in which the ILI can experience new things and escape from the confines of his own mind.

    ILIs may often have an attitude of reticence towards enlisting the assistance or company of other people. This subdued attitude is due to a strong disinclination on the part of ILIs to annoy or bother others with their needs. They also may tend to assume that others are not interested in them or what they are doing, and that offers to help them represent a facade of social nicety rather than genuine interest or good will.

    ILIs are additionally very indecisive. They may lack the ability to make important decisions, especially with regards to their own future. ILIs do not always necessarily know what they want out of life and may have difficulty setting or achieving long term goals. In order to be able to act, ILIs require an impetus from someone who has a clear goal or material vision and the energy to pursue such an ideal.

    ILIs may perceive work-related or intellectual pursuits as being of great long-term importance, but such interests are often not perceived as possessing great importance in the short term and rarely suffice as a true replacement for the discomfort that an ILI may feel at his lack of decisiveness or inertia.

    Introverted Ethics (Fi, Fi)

    Fi is a strikingly influential factor in the mindset of an ILI. ILIs tend to deeply value feelings of attachment to those whom engage them in a deep and lasting emotional kinship. They have a hard time establishing these sentiments as they are naturally disinterested in most people, who seem outwardly unremarkable or having nothing in common with them. However, when the ILI has developed deep interpersonal bonds, they tend to hold on to such attachments very deeply. ILIs are almost always deeply unconfident about their social abilities and, consequently, they rarely speak of their inner bonds with others to common outsiders with whom they share merely superficial acquaintanceships. Feelings of this sort are rarely talked about with others, but the ILI may be painfully aware of these sentiments for fear of appearing overly sentimental or having feelings that are "out of line" or inappropriate to their present level of social interaction. ILIs may tend to love from afar and in their solitude if there is something or someone they love, because of their lack of confidence in their own feelings. Some ILIs may even be closet romantics. ILIs can also be quite sensitive, despite their outward emotional reservation, and are sometimes far more emotionally vulnerable than they demonstrate.

    In general, ILIs are fundamentally good-natured and conscionable people who may place a great deal of importance on ethical principles. In fact, ILIs may have a very strong sense of good will and loyalty towards others if they find the others to be similarly reasonable, trustworthy individuals. ILIs do not always demonstrate this loyalty explicitly. As a consequence, ILIs are not always seen as kind people, instead more typically appearing standoffish, cold, or hostile. If ILIs are drawn in by sincere and engaging individuals, the ILI's sense of compassion may be realized and so surface. ILIs can be calm, attentive, and sympathetic listeners to the plights of their emotionally volatile duals, and can be very drawn to the state of deep bonds that they feel with them.

    Many less actualized ILIs hold a far more vindictive attitude. This occurs, among other scenarios, when ILIs are depressed about people, and especially when ILIs are suffering from a lack of support from others. In these scenarios the ILI may aggressively attack people's intelligence, ideas, or character rather unrelentlessly. Even so, such actions may precipitate conflict which the ILI is liable to find highly tiresome and frustrating -- as well as blurring the ILI's mental image of the facts, thus making him feel as though his work is unfinished. Such people who have been blacklisted are often in the ILI's eyes very deserving of this role, but the ILI may find that other people do not agree and faces the choice of either withdrawing in order to avoid interacting with the object of derision, or else continuing to interact, thus perpetuating the process and compounding the ILI's frustration. Such judgments may be very difficult to extricate from the ILI; such a process requires a copious amount of often thankless moral support and truth; SEEs are the only persons equipped for this task, and may in their occasional naivete of others' motivations benefit from the ILI's rather harsh stances. Typically, however, if the ILI is engaged with people with whom he feels very close and respects, he sees little need to interact with such individuals that would inspire his aggression.

    ILIs rarely, if ever, take it upon themselves to display emotional, social, or physical initiative. To engage other people, especially in unfamiliar circumstances, can be a harrowing task for ILIs, and one from which most ILIs usually try to refrain. Nonetheless, ILIs are often treated with uncertainty or dubitation by most others due to their large inability to give off clear emotional data; ILIs may appear overly polite, formal, and robotic in social situations. ILIs seeking emotional ties with individuals may find themselves forced to take the initiative with others, a task for which even friendly ILIs are poorly equipped and bogged down with uncertainty. Even when ILIs do take some initiative upon themselves, they almost never succeed in reaching a depth of emotional connection which satisfies them.

    Realization and development of Fi in ILIs represents a process of growth. Some ILIs with minimally developed Fi can be far less aware of the importance of lasting emotions, and can appear far more insensitive, unfriendly, and antagonistic.

    Id block

    Extroverted Intuition (Ne, Ne)

    Though ILIs often have deep intellectual interests, they are likely to be relatively limited in the range of ideas that they consider. Whereas Ne leading types may jump from idea to idea in quick succession, ILIs are likely to focus more closely on a more limited batch of mental themes in their ruminations. ILIs are also often critical of new ideas which do not correspond to their overall understanding of a subject.

    ILIs often believe that a well developed understanding of a situation is of greater importance than a deep understanding of the potential outcomes. To an ILI, it would be a silly exercise to simply list a number of possible outcomes without considering the likelihood of their realization and why they may or may not come to pass.

    ILIs may be more apt to take a more practical or imagination-oriented approach to evaluating the outside world. They are unlikely to generate comprehensive ideas about new and unusual concepts that they have just discovered; instead, they most typically incorporate new information into their database carefully and ploddingly. They may instead seek to expand upon aspects of things they already know or build upon their own internal realities -- such as thinking of possible characteristics or plots for inner mental universes. Additionally, they may seek to exert their mental faculties to deal with ideas in the real world, such as those pertaining to areas like economics, politics, or anything regarding the development of modern society.

    ILIs often have difficulty adapting themselves to new intellectual interests. They instead seek to limit the amount of new information that they have to learn. Consequently, they may recycle interests until the same interests become a drudgery, even so much that intellectual progress becomes stunted.

    Introverted Logic (Ti, Ti)

    ILIs are often able to understand formal logical systems without difficulty. Nonetheless, most ILIs are often not interested in interpreting overly systematic or deterministic models of reality. The ILI's view of reality is a mental and often esoteric one, and models which focus on systematic connections with little apparent external basis. Instead, ILIs often ground themselves by focusing on real-world or practical examples of their mental wanderings. ILIs not uncommonly reject the notion of overly complicated theories in favor of simple, sensible interpretations that are easily understood and observed.

    Instead of relying on systematic bases of knowledge, ILIs often fall into a constant cycle of dynamically reevaluating their informational outlook (ie "this may change, but at the moment i sort of am inclined to think the facts suggest that droog is better than blinth, despite these plausible alternative interpretations").

    - See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/t....vJ6HQInn.dpuf
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    I'd like to get more INTPs in here to read their perspectives. Does the following statement generally seem accurate?

    "Ti strives for thought precision and logical coherence therefore it openly questions thought processes and doubts itself to reach a state of self-assurance and harmony."
    I'm not INTP most likely but maybe I have Ti... thought precision and logical coherence are familiar buzzwords applicable to me yes


    When information presented to me is inconsistent with information in my brain, I often feel a need to analyze it and pick it to pieces to verify its accuracy or inaccuracy. This often leads me to second guess myself as I become worried I'm not getting the correct information from the external world or that I've been carrying around faulty information in my brain.
    I do analyze inconsistencies but not by trying to verify the accuracy of the fact so much. I mean, assuming the facts are okay, the interpretation is what's going to be wrong so I focus on that. Don't you? I don't relate to this worry about "carrying faulty information in brain" lol it sounded funny


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    Jung on Ti

    "Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity"
    Yea well this sort of thing is when I wonder if it's still Ti or it's Ni lol

    Here's my thoughts on that.. I guess it's Ti if it's *actively* trying to *fit* the facts into a *rigid* framework. Like, you got ideas on principles that are not only inherent to the facts but they are the "shapes" they must fit into. I hope that makes sense. For me this can even take a visual form mentally.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    Fe is important for initiating and maintaining social relationships and is very important from an early age. It is common for young INTPs to unintentionally offend others because they may not have insight into what is considered socially acceptable. This is usually learned through trial and error (Si) and observing behavioral patterns (Ne). Social life requires them to spend more effort than other types in developing their inferior function so their inferior function may appear “stronger” than the inferior function of other types. (...) Most INTPs learn to feign Fe and adjust to their social environments using their auxiliary function (Ne). INTPs may mistype as INFJs, if they have developed their inferior function (Fe).
    Yeah, I know an INTP who seems to have real strong Fe but he's just got a strong enneagram 9 influence (4-5-9 tritype) and he's got loads of Ne he can use for joking around. He toyed with the INFJ idea but he is just too detached and impersonal IMO. And not just that but he oozes Ti when theorizing. And oozes even more Ne when joking.

    Do you relate to any of that?

    (I only relate to this Fe development thing in terms of using Se to help sometimes)


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    I mentioned earlier that I have always felt a certain detachment from people in general. I sometimes pretend to be more emotional about something, because otherwise people seem to think I don't care about, say, the homeless. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I have to work to show people I care. Does this make sense? I think people see me as some sort of aloof introvert. This is true to an extent, but if they got to know me better, they'd also see someone who can be very passionate about a cause, especially if said cause is pertinent to one of my interests.
    Why do you feel the need to work to show the feelings you don't even feel that strongly? With the homeless example, I just wouldn't bother to show any emotional response. Sure if I feel one I'll show it but eh it's usually not PC emotions. Most of the time just detached. (Still staying with homeless example)


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    How do Ti users argue? I've read that if you insult one or argue with them, they will more likely find some factual piece of evidence to throw back that shows some fault in the other person. I don't know how accurate that is, but it's usually been my experience. In general, I avoid conflict and arguments, but if I feel my back is against the wall, I will start tossing out pieces of data that are hard to argue with.
    Why should Ti go fault finding? Sounds like ad hominem bullshit. I don't like doing that myself. So if I have Ti then I will have to respectfully disagree here, Ti doesn't necessarily lead you to do this sort of arguing. This is nonsense really, why not use logic instead?

    Nice about you tossing out concrete data on facts, it's hard to argue with that sure, but some people just ignore these facts and will happily go on arguing :P Worst if done in a personal way / by using personal attacks. What do you do then? Just curious.


    If you insult me about my face, it probably won't do much, but if you insult me about my intelligence or ability, it can be very damaging. I was picked on relentlessly in grade school, but it really didn't leave a huge scar because the insults were usually about me being a red headed stepchild or being a fire crotch or a trekkie dweeb.
    Lol you can safely forget about being Se type I think

    You totally sound like some INTx


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    "In contrast to other attitudes, especially left-brain and Feeling attitudes, Ti does not lead you to experience a sense of self. There is no "you" who is separate from the process in which the material takes on the form that is natural to it. Whether people find the way the parts want to arrange themselves into a harmonious whole offensive, whether you find it pleasant or painful, whether you personally like it or not--you see these as distractions. Your job is to get yourself in harmony with it. The Idea of the whole must become real, and it must be necessitated by the nature of the parts. What "you" create must already be there, as form latent within the material, already yearning to exist. You bring no notion of self to your work except perhaps that of midwife to Nature.

    Introverted Thinking leads you to relate whatever you are doing to some larger principles that you have identified. Hence, Ti is like having some kind of book in your head, which describes the inner workings of things. When interacting with reality, you are constantly writing and re-writing your book. To deal with anything, you have to be able to understand in terms of the observations in your book. Whenever you are dealing with any new system, you start writing a new chapter on it in order to attain complete understanding of it.

    This approach may seem very cumbersome from an extraverted standpoint. You don't really need to understand how a bicycle works in order to ride one. You don't have to actually understand a subject in school if you simply cram and memorize. You don't have to understand computers to check your email. Yet Ti leads you to desire complete understanding of whatever you are doing, instead of looking up the correct procedure, or asking your friends for help, or kicking it when it's not working. With Ti, you don't simply try to understand a system well enough to manipulate it. You try to become such an expert on how it works that you could write a book about it if you had to, even if your expertise is unusable or useless to everybody (sometimes even to yourself)."
    Oh yes the lovely Lenore Thomson description of Ti

    Some ENTP once claimed it was actually Ti with Se, though. He subscribed to the viewpoint that learning by doing is Se > Ne.

    I wonder if you relate to the part about Ti having no experience of a sense of self. ??? Personally I think that part is very well described there about Ti.

    As for the learning by doing, I relate strongly, but I don't know how strictly type dependent that is. I'm not INTx and you may very well be and you do relate to this kind of learning style too, right?


    I remember working at a job building pinspotters for bowling alleys. I wanted to know how the particular part I was building worked inside the machine, and for that matter, how the rest of the machine worked. My supervisor and co-workers thought I was silly. What difference does it make? Just do your job, take your paycheck, and shut the fuck up were their typical reactions. They couldn't understand why I was so concerned with knowing all of the inner workings and functions of what we were building. I couldn't really understand it either, but I've always been that way. When I was a kid, I used to get together with a neighborhood friend and we'd take our bicycles apart to clean, repair, whatever. For me, the importance of that act lay not so much in servicing my bike but in learning how it worked, how each individual piece functioned as part of a larger mechanism.

    I don't consider myself a particularly "handy" person or one who is naturally great with tools (I don't know if this is modesty speaking *shrug*) but I do enjoy taking things apart. I was scolded on several occasions as a child for taking things apart and trying to fix or improve them when there was nothing wrong with them to begin with.

    Does anything I just wrote about sound like Ti?
    To me it's all Ti yes. I have this tendency myself just to less of an extreme. I usually get as far as getting a nagging sense of "oh how does this work? I should really figure this out!" but often I don't need it for anything in practice so the desire passes relatively easily. If a day had 48 hours maybe I'd try to act on it more. I do act on it however if I'm involved in a task where it's relevant to the task and I will then happily go beyond immediate relevance too.

    The taking things apart thingie is stereotypical ISTP but maybe it's just Ti... or something else... I never did it when a kid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    Again, a lot of this reminds me of personal experience. You can tell me how to do something twenty times, then I can read the instruction manual 3 times, but I still might not get it right. This is unfortunate because I think it's led people to mistake me for a blubbering idiot who is unable to take simple instructions on several occasions.

    I'm a visual, hands-on learner and I learn to do things by walking through the steps myself as I am taught or trained. It's the only way I can fully grasp something. Of course I can read about the process and get a very, very good idea of how it works or how to do it, but I won't feel completely confident until I've done it myself. Once I've got it in my head, however, it's very unlikely I will forget.
    Most efficient way for me too, to learn. I can learn other ways too just it's not going to make things as "innately known and understood".


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    This sort of thing got me in trouble on multiple occasions in school. I'm pretty sure some teachers hated me for doing this, but it was never my intent to be a pain in the ass or make them look stupid. If anything, I felt I was doing a service to them, correcting them so that they were teaching the correct facts. It usually happened in history classes. I read a lot about history growing up, and frankly, the history that is taught in Kindergarten through High School in the US is often factually wrong. Whitewashed shit that ignores facts, bends facts, or plain lies.
    This one sounds like you being fact oriented, not Ti oriented. Unless you mean certain interpretations of history events?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    "As a secondary function, Se leads ISPs to make "what plays" into the object of their thoughts. The world of appearance and spectacle provides them with a subject matter to analyze and comment on from an outside perspective, especially to point out (from the sidelines) how people are attempting to be cool but failing, ha ha. ISPs often see themselves as the true leading edge of cool, hipper than hip, into what becomes popular before it becomes popular. As a path of further development and expansion of consciousness, Se shows ISPs how to "go with the flow", to "accept" what is, to "be present" to what is happening right now, recognizing that they can't control it. Incorporating an Se way of orienting themselves, they find a way for their dominant moral perspective to bear fruit in any circumstances they find themselves in. Their dominant function has led them to cultivate a way of being, or state of grace, that feels possible only in a private space, where public perception is not a factor (e.g. Michael Jackson's Never-Never Land Ranch). Se tunes them in to public perception in a way that enables them to fully be themselves wherever they are, freely giving their gifts to all comers, and unconditionally accepting the results."

    ^^I have a hard time relating to the above description of Se as a secondary function

    In general, I'm finding Ne-Si easier to identify with my own experiences and ways of perceiving and interpreting the world.

    I think Ne is my auxiliary.
    I don't relate to that stuff about analysing what's cool and Se is maybe even my dominant function. This is just a goddamn stereotype description, don't go by that when typing.

    Also the part about recognizing that I can't control the environment, pfft, depends. In a social sense, yes maybe this makes sense, otherwise nah...

    The second half of last sentence, maybe. But it just sounds so Fe-ish too?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    I think the distinction between Ti-Ne and Ti-Se is this: the Ti-Se wants to learn how something works with the main goal being some real world application of their knowledge. The Ti-Ne wants to learn how something works for the sake of knowing how something works.
    Well kind of... See, I feel motivated by both but only the former is what I feel strong enough to get into it enough. The latter (understand how it works for the sake of understanding it) happens less often though it has happened before yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yeah, no way are you Se aux. Visual/hands-on doesn't automatically equal Se. I'm the same way with physical stuff. I think it has more to do with extroverted perceiving than anything.
    Oh interesting take. That ENTP I mentioned above thought differently about this, I guess this is a rather ambiguous area then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    I just took the socionics test at www.sociotype.com and was typed ILI-INTp (NiTe), which pretty much contradicts my MBTI type. That said, this is the first time I'd read the ILI description and it described me almost in a nutshell.
    How about LII? Does it also describe you or not as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I'm not INTP most likely but maybe I have Ti... thought precision and logical coherence are familiar buzzwords applicable to me yes
    it's been the easiest function to identify in myself. It's largely why I was convinced I was INFJ before. That, and the fact that I mistook Ne-Si for Ni.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I do analyze inconsistencies but not by trying to verify the accuracy of the fact so much. I mean, assuming the facts are okay, the interpretation is what's going to be wrong so I focus on that. Don't you? I don't relate to this worry about "carrying faulty information in brain" lol it sounded funny
    I think I should've better phrased what I was trying to convey. My worry isn't so much that I am wrong but that when I decide to express a thought or idea verbally or via text, that I will be able to accurately convey the thought without stumbling over my words or failing to get the general theme or concept out in a way that makes sense to others and not just myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yea well this sort of thing is when I wonder if it's still Ti or it's Ni lol

    Here's my thoughts on that.. I guess it's Ti if it's *actively* trying to *fit* the facts into a *rigid* framework. Like, you got ideas on principles that are not only inherent to the facts but they are the "shapes" they must fit into. I hope that makes sense. For me this can even take a visual form mentally.
    Yes, I'd agree that Ti would seem a bit more rigid and logical in its process, as it is a "Left-Brain" function, whereas I imagine Ni works outside of any rigid framework.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yeah, I know an INTP who seems to have real strong Fe but he's just got a strong enneagram 9 influence (4-5-9 tritype) and he's got loads of Ne he can use for joking around. He toyed with the INFJ idea but he is just too detached and impersonal IMO. And not just that but he oozes Ti when theorizing. And oozes even more Ne when joking.

    Do you relate to any of that?

    (I only relate to this Fe development thing in terms of using Se to help sometimes)
    yes, actually I do relate to that a lot. Especially after spending some time interacting with INFJs in online groups and forums. I'm not going so far as to say they lack a sense of humor, it's just a lot different. They can come off a bit serious, to me, at least. Same with INTJs.

    Also, I have a 5-9-4 tritype.

    I am very detached and my use of Fe is clunky and awkward (though getting better) whereas it is used gracefully and effortlessly by many INFJs.

    I have a quick wit that isn't always outwardly displayed but when it is, I can have some people in stitches.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Why do you feel the need to work to show the feelings you don't even feel that strongly? With the homeless example, I just wouldn't bother to show any emotional response. Sure if I feel one I'll show it but eh it's usually not PC emotions. Most of the time just detached. (Still staying with homeless example)
    I do it less at this point in my life, because it's not worth the energy and effort. I did this when I was younger because I got tired of being criticized and called out for being to detached and aloof. "How can you not be bothered by 9/11?" for instance. It's not that I wasn't affected by things, just not so great at showing it. I personally like the fact that I am somewhat cool headed about many things that might affect other people more visibly.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Why should Ti go fault finding? Sounds like ad hominem bullshit. I don't like doing that myself. So if I have Ti then I will have to respectfully disagree here, Ti doesn't necessarily lead you to do this sort of arguing. This is nonsense really, why not use logic instead?

    Nice about you tossing out concrete data on facts, it's hard to argue with that sure, but some people just ignore these facts and will happily go on arguing :P Worst if done in a personal way / by using personal attacks. What do you do then? Just curious.
    I think I meant to imply finding fault in the other person's argument, not so much finding fault in that person. So yes, logic will be involved in analyzing that person's side of the argument and finding a hole or contradiction in their logic..."You say A, and yet earlier you said B, which contradicts A for this reason...."

    If people make personal attacks and continue to argue, I will either leave the argument, knowing nothing I say at that point will be likely to change their mind, or I might foolishly continue to argue and try to prove them wrong, or try to see their side of the argument. If I must sink to their level of personal attacks, I will at least try to make attacks that are hard to argue with.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I wonder if you relate to the part about Ti having no experience of a sense of self. ??? Personally I think that part is very well described there about Ti.

    As for the learning by doing, I relate strongly, but I don't know how strictly type dependent that is. I'm not INTx and you may very well be and you do relate to this kind of learning style too, right?
    Yes, I can relate to that.

    How people learn might vary from type to type, but there will certainly be some people who prefer a certain way over another, regardless of type. Hands on learning is preferred for me, so long as I am highly interested and motivated enough to care, otherwise I can become bored by the details. It's been said INTPs are more big picture thinkers than detail-oriented, but it really depends on what is being learned. When I am really focused and addicted to a topic or subject, I will pore over every detail until I become bored and abandon it for another subject or pursuit. Focusing the details can contribute to a more accurate and precise overall understanding of any interest, subject, or thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    To me it's all Ti yes. I have this tendency myself just to less of an extreme. I usually get as far as getting a nagging sense of "oh how does this work? I should really figure this out!" but often I don't need it for anything in practice so the desire passes relatively easily. If a day had 48 hours maybe I'd try to act on it more. I do act on it however if I'm involved in a task where it's relevant to the task and I will then happily go beyond immediate relevance too.

    The taking things apart thingie is stereotypical ISTP but maybe it's just Ti... or something else... I never did it when a kid.
    A lot of it boils down to having the time to do and learn everything we want to do, as you mentioned. 48 hour days would be great. Or perhaps if I didn't need sleep and food. I think the friend I usually took apart bicycles with was probably an ISTP, in hindsight. I also think my cousin is ISTP. He does have a way with tools and building things that I could never master. He's kind of quiet and withdrawn but he has a lot of friends and they are always doing very physical, outdoor group activities. He's currently in the midst of rebuilding a Jeep.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    How about LII? Does it also describe you or not as well?
    Yes, I went back and read the ENTp and INTj descriptions at that site. Actually, the ENTp description seemed to even better describe me than the other two!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    Yes, I went back and read the ENTp and INTj descriptions at that site. Actually, the ENTp description seemed to even better describe me than the other two!
    Haha.

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    Socionics is a strange animal of a system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    it's been the easiest function to identify in myself. It's largely why I was convinced I was INFJ before. That, and the fact that I mistook Ne-Si for Ni.
    If it was the easiest you might be Ti-dom :p

    Tbh originally it was easiest for me too, I didn't even understand Se/Ni vs Ne/Si for a while. But I always understood Ti/Fe very well instinctively as a MBTI beginner. Thus compared to it, I understood how Te/Fi is different. (Of course later I managed to complicate things heh. I mean, I would like to understand Fi because that one's still weird to tme) Otoh, Ne/Si just didn't ever make sense and that's why I was confused.

    Do you have an easy time to understand Ne/Si? I would think that'd be an indicator of you preferring them over Ni/Se.

    How did you realise that you were Ne instead of Ni? If you wrote about that before, I probably didn't see it


    I think I should've better phrased what I was trying to convey. My worry isn't so much that I am wrong but that when I decide to express a thought or idea verbally or via text, that I will be able to accurately convey the thought without stumbling over my words or failing to get the general theme or concept out in a way that makes sense to others and not just myself.
    OK. Same for me.


    Yes, I'd agree that Ti would seem a bit more rigid and logical in its process, as it is a "Left-Brain" function, whereas I imagine Ni works outside of any rigid framework.
    Err well according to that silly brain quadrant theory, Ti is right brained. I clearly see left brained traits to it, but right brained ones too. I really don't think it's as simple as that theory. I call bullshit on it.

    Aye I'm sure Ni isn't using such a rigid framework


    yes, actually I do relate to that a lot. Especially after spending some time interacting with INFJs in online groups and forums. I'm not going so far as to say they lack a sense of humor, it's just a lot different. They can come off a bit serious, to me, at least. Same with INTJs.
    Because of lack of Ne? :P


    Also, I have a 5-9-4 tritype.
    Lol no shit. You could be very similar to my friend then :p


    I do it less at this point in my life, because it's not worth the energy and effort. I did this when I was younger because I got tired of being criticized and called out for being to detached and aloof. "How can you not be bothered by 9/11?" for instance. It's not that I wasn't affected by things, just not so great at showing it. I personally like the fact that I am somewhat cool headed about many things that might affect other people more visibly.
    OK, I think this is some NT thing, I don't relate. Well or just an Introversion thing. Though e.g. a Fi-dom stereotypically doesn't feel the need to bother to try and show their feelings even if others criticize them for being aloof.


    I think I meant to imply finding fault in the other person's argument, not so much finding fault in that person. So yes, logic will be involved in analyzing that person's side of the argument and finding a hole or contradiction in their logic..."You say A, and yet earlier you said B, which contradicts A for this reason...."
    Alright yes I relate to that. You don't do that at all, then?


    Yes, I can relate to that.

    How people learn might vary from type to type, but there will certainly be some people who prefer a certain way over another, regardless of type. Hands on learning is preferred for me, so long as I am highly interested and motivated enough to care, otherwise I can become bored by the details. It's been said INTPs are more big picture thinkers than detail-oriented, but it really depends on what is being learned. When I am really focused and addicted to a topic or subject, I will pore over every detail until I become bored and abandon it for another subject or pursuit. Focusing the details can contribute to a more accurate and precise overall understanding of any interest, subject, or thing.
    I agree with the bolded I don't relate to the rest, you seem NT-ish yes. I was thinking about ISTP for you for a few secs but I find it a lot less likely than NT


    Yes, I went back and read the ENTp and INTj descriptions at that site. Actually, the ENTp description seemed to even better describe me than the other two!
    Well maybe you're ENTp then? Was it the NeTi part of the description that you related to over the TiNe and NiTe descriptions?

    My INTP friend, he checked out the same site (sociotype.com right?), he identified with LII over ILE because of how he uses Ti and Ne, it was just closer to LII TiNe according to him. I do see him the same way, LII works better for him.

    Maybe you are actually Ne > Ti, though?

  9. #69

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    I have now (tentatively) decided I am probably an ENTp in the socionics system.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    I have now decided I am an ENTp in the socionics system.
    *claps* Now for the other bullshit XD

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