My Enneagram type? - I think I know my Freudian triad?

[Haven]

ok let's keep going

What way is that? Do elaborate please. Thanks.
You seem image conscious in such a way that 8s and 7s aren't. These are types that care the least about what others think of them. You seem to care.

Do you have another type in mind?
I was going to suggest 2w3 as an alternative. The way you answer the following questions should confirm or deny that (ideally).

Well it's like, I just enjoy being this way. Do ask specific questions if something is unclear about this.
When do you decide it's time to move on from one thing?

Well say, I decide to get up at the same time everyday. In practice that's hard to execute.
Do you think you'd rather be more or less self disciplined? Are you more self disciplined when others are involved?

As for the moral principles: I just don't have a consciously built up system about moral ideals that I would keep to.

Example: friend says he never went to exams unprepared because he respected his teachers and thought they didn't deserve such treatment, that is, him as a student going unprepared, so he studied for the exams out of a principle. I studied for the exams not because of such a principle but because I wanted to pass the exams. I didn't care about the teachers at all in this sense. It's actually a foreign idea to me to do something just because someone else would be pleased or out of some feeling of obligation whatnot. None of that's me at all.

Well "inspire" was maybe a strong word because I'm not quite sure how I would go about actually inspiring someone, but if someone talks about their plans or if they have an issue to solve, I do encourage them.

Hm, inspiration, maybe it was when I was excited about something and others liked the passion and got interested too.
Do you think you are in a position to inspire others, or would you like to be?

I meant I like to own material things. I feel good having them. Possessive of my stuff. That actually includes some people to an extent
Do you consider yourself possessive?

Well I don't understand it because I'm definitely not this way. I really don't need to be rejected. Example, if I'm interested in someone, I don't put myself out there easily in an emotional sense, I don't expect things to be that great automatically. And if things don't go well, I'm not going to stand there crying in desperate sadness. As I said, this isn't even a conscious decision, there's this block inside protecting me from such shit. I'm sorry if I can't explain this very well. Do ask more specific questions please, then maybe I can explain better.
How do you handle rejection, in general?

I meant, challenges => feeling of aliveness I'm not saying it can't be frustrating if things don't want to work out easily.
What drives you to meet these challenges?

This persevering thing also ties into liking to have a focus and having one deep interest at a time.

 

[valaki]

ok let's keep going

Heh okay ;p

You seem image conscious in such a way that 8s and 7s aren't. These are types that care the least about what others think of them. You seem to care.

Can you elaborate on how I seem image conscious? What kind of things do you think I care about in terms of how others think about me?

2w3, mmm, interesting thought.

When do you decide it's time to move on from one thing?

That's the thing I don't. It just happens on its own. I wouldn't call this "jumping around" though because it happens relatively rarely, I change focus once every couple of years on average.

Sometimes I changed focus because the previous thing was simply ended (a specific project completed, or for other reasons no longer anything to do with it) but again, it wasn't done very consciously, I mean, the switch to something else.

Do you think you'd rather be more or less self disciplined? Are you more self disciplined when others are involved?

I would like to be more disciplined about leading my life, yes. This is - hard - work in progress, the sleep stuff too

As for others involved, not really.

E.g. if I have a deadline given by an organization then I'll meet the deadline but I can't say I do that in a disciplined way. I'll use school as an example again, I studied for the exam the day/night before exam day as that was the deadline.

Oh well, you could say it's still fine because I at least meet the deadline. So that means I do have some control over my own impulses when needed . I get really focused and work hard and intensely to meet the deadlines.

Otherwise, I naturally only have the self-discipline under one circumstance, mentioned here: "I enjoy self-discipline in working for goals". I wasn't precise enough there, I meant goals where I have strong intrinsic motivation.

Do you think you are in a position to inspire others, or would you like to be?

It's a nice thing, sure.

How do you mean I would be in a position to do so?

Do you consider yourself possessive?

Of things, yes. Of people, it's less black and white, I'm not a total control freak, e.g. not at all jealous until there is a tangible reason. If there is a tangible reason, then I can be more like that, though... :/

How do you handle rejection, in general?

Emotionally I just shut down automatically. This response is not under my control. It's hard to feel even sadness, though it's happened at times. I think maybe I'm changing with this lately, though. Because I'm trying to get in control about this response.

What drives you to meet these challenges?

Um... the challenges themselves?

 

[valaki]

I edited a few lines, so if you were reading my first reply, you should re-read it now.

 

[Haven]

[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION] You just seem polite in general, like you are aware of how you come off to others in a way that non-image types aren't. It's really more of a feeling I get, it's hard to explain. Also, copious emoticons.

I'm satisfied though, 2w3 sounds good.

I wonder if you have an 8 fix, and if that makes you feel rejection differently than I do with my 9w1 fix.

 

[valaki]

[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION] You just seem polite in general, like you are aware of how you come off to others in a way that non-image types aren't. It's really more of a feeling I get, it's hard to explain. Also, copious emoticons.

Well I didn't know I was coming off as particularly polite I guess you haven't seen me arguing yet ;p

I'm satisfied though, 2w3 sounds good.

Which answers of mine were 2-ish and why?

I wonder if you have an 8 fix, and if that makes you feel rejection differently than I do with my 9w1 fix.

How are you with rejection?

 

[Haven]

Well I didn't know I was coming off as particularly polite I guess you haven't seen me arguing yet ;p

I don't doubt that it's terrifying. At this moment you are being polite, you don't think so?

Which answers of mine were 2-ish and why?

Rejection sucks, it hurts 2s more than it does other types. Rather than be rejected, it's easier to reject our own needs. I don't just mean romantic rejection, but from jobs, and friends too (and other things I would imagine).

Not backing down from challenges = pride of a 2. But in other cases where your pride isn't at stake, it's not as important for you right?

2s are known to be very possessive.

Partly it is also because of the difficulties you have in describing yourself. 2s can have difficulty seeing themselves as they are.

How are you with rejection?

Horrible, I just want to run away and not talk to anyone.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

I don't doubt that it's terrifying. At this moment you are being polite, you don't think so?



Rejection sucks, it hurts 2s more than it does other types. Rather than be rejected, it's easier to reject our own needs. I don't just mean romantic rejection, but from jobs, and friends too (and other things I would imagine).

Not backing down from challenges = pride of a 2. But in other cases where your pride isn't at stake, it's not as important for you right?

2s are known to be very possessive.

Partly it is also because of the difficulties you have in describing yourself. 2s can have difficulty seeing themselves as they are.



Horrible, I just want to run away and not talk to anyone.

8's also never back down from a challenge, and are more antagonizing than 2s in their assertiveness. (8's also have a form of the 2s fixation of pride called lust, meaning that they crave escalation and intensity but with a 3 fix are also reputation defending)

8's are also known to be incredible domineering and possessive of those they care about.

3 and 2s deal with rejection in similar ways, but a 3 is more likely to be deeply self-conscious about it and mask it with self-confidence whereas a 2 will seek the support of friends and allies or possibly keep helping people with personal problems in order to raise their self-esteem.

3s have a harder time seeing who they are than 2s do. 3s actively mold their personality to fit the social structure, which 2w3s do as well, but 3s are much more chameleon-esque.

If you experience rejection with anger combined with bitter contempt for yourself but mask it with self-confidence, I would say 8 with a 3 fix.
If you experience rejection with anger combined with bitter contempt for yourself but actively seek to do good deeds to cheer you up, I'd say 8 with 2 fix.

If you don't experience rejection with anger, then I don't think you would be a core 8 or have an extremely weak 8 fix.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Emotionally I just shut down automatically. This response is not under my control. It's hard to feel even sadness, though it's happened at times. I think maybe I'm changing with this lately, though. Because I'm trying to get in control about this response.

Um... the challenges themselves?

Typical 3 and 8 responses here.

"Emotionally I just shut down" - Under negative or painful circumstances, Type 3s sub-consciously and somewhat consciously suppress their emotions so that they don't seem weak, fragile, or failing to themselves and the outside world.

8's love challenges more than almost any other type (with 3 shortly behind), they love to express their self-confidence and love to feel the self-confident rush of beating a challenge or overcoming an obstacle (just as 3s do).

 

[Haven]

It is not difficult to see how Twos and Eights can be confused, although there is a world of difference between them. Some average Twos realize that they are forceful and dominating, two of the significant traits of Eights. A particularly aggressive Two may find himself or herself in a work-related role that requires leadership and discipline. For these and other reasons, it is possible for some Twos to misidentify themselves as Eights. This is especially true for male Twos, who, for cultural reasons, may prefer to emphasize these traits. (The difference even on these points, however, is that average Twos do not dominate others and their environment to extend their personal power. Twos do indeed dominate others, although indirectly: they may be overbearing and controlling, although always under the guise of being concerned for others. When Eights attempt to dominate, they make it clear that they are in a power struggle with the other.) Twos and Eights are nevertheless similar in the deep feelings and passion they bring to their relationships, although the expression of their feelings and the effects they have on others are quite different.

It is worth noting that both types struggle with underlying feelings of rejection, although they cope with these feelings in different ways. These feelings probably predispose both types to have stormy relationships and, should conflicts occur, to express their intense passions in interpersonal conflicts (Eights) or in covert neediness and manipulation (Twos).

The probable source of the confusion is that both types have strong wills and egos and a tendency to dominate others. Eights are openly aggressive, forceful, and egocentric, but are very direct in their communication. When Eights are not happy about something, they have no difficulty letting the other person know that they are angry or disappointed. Twos can also be aggressive, forceful, self-satisfied, ego centric, and so forth, although covertly, under an increasingly thin veneer of love. Twos have great difficulty communicating their anger openly, even though they may be very upset with someone. Thus, they use indirect approaches, trying to hint at, or failing that, to manipulate others into meeting their needs. By contrast, less healthy Eights intimidate people openly and when they are frustrated, they push harder to get what they want, possibly using direct threats. When Twos are frustrated, they try to make others feel guilty, especially by dramatizing the suffering they feel. Of course, as Twos become more overwhelmed by stress, they increasingly resemble Eights since Eight is the Two's Direction of Disintegration. Contrasting Twos such as Mother Teresa and Barbara Bush with Eights such as Indira Gandhi and former Governor of Texas, Ann Richards will yield more insight into these two types.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/members/misid/2and8.asp#.UtHI7_Q2YrU

Yea this is a tough one

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

A good way to tell a 2 and 8 apart is their behavior when unhealthy.

8's disintegrate to 5 and become much more antagonistic and untrusting of others (due to their new found 5-ish introversion and belief that the whole world is against them). 8's disintegration is akin to Antisocial Personality Disorder (Psychopathy/Sociopathy) and Sadistic Personality Disorder

2's disintegrate to 8 and become much more antagonistic but at the same time still emphasize their need for emotional appreciation and become "clingy" to people and begin manipulating people "for their own good". 2's disintegration is akin to Masochistic/Self-Defeating Personality Disorder.

8's are almost always Thinking types in MBTI, 2s are almost always Feeling Types in MBTI, and that comes from the Thinking and 8's egocentricity and the Feeling and 2's self-sacrificing behavior.

An 8 with an extremely strong 3 fix will have the anger/lust/independent thinking of an 8 combined with the 3's need for approval, fame, and success, and will therefore be extremely reputation defending to the point of direct antagonism and social manipulation to reach the top of a social body when unhealthy.

Also, 2s desire appreciation for their good deeds and helping demeanor, where 3s desire appreciation for their achievements and successes.

 

[Haven]

2's disintegrate to 8 and become much more antagonistic but at the same time still emphasize their need for emotional appreciation and become "clingy" to people and begin manipulating people "for their own good". 2's disintegration is akin to Masochistic/Self-Defeating Personality Disorder.

Maybe a very self righteous 2 (with a 1-fix maybe) would say it's "for their own good" but other 2s would not say the same thing. The point is that they have reached an impasse within where they can no longer deny their own needs, but their self image wont allow openly acting on them. Anyway I don't think this would be relevant to an 8-fixed 2, who I'm thinking would be more comfortable with it than most of the literature would have us believe.

Also, 2s desire appreciation for their good deeds and helping demeanor, where 3s desire appreciation for their achievements and successes.

That is a bit of an oversimplification, 2s don't just help people and demand appreciation. Pride would never allow us to admit we need such validation.

In a real way, Twos are dependent on the loving responses of others to validate their self-image—the good, selfless, loving person. The problem is that as long as Twos are focused on others to find indications of their own value and lovability, they fail to be fully aware of all of their own feelings and cannot recognize the lovable qualities within themselves.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeTwoOverview.asp#.UtHcSvQ2YrU

The stress here is on being a good loving selfless person, but I think that's overly narrow. Anything that the 2 has a pride in being is what the 2 does to reinforce the self image.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Maybe a very self righteous 2 (with a 1-fix maybe) would say it's "for their own good" but other 2s would not say the same thing. The point is that they have reached an impasse within where they can no longer deny their own needs, but their self image wont allow openly acting on them. Anyway I don't think this would be relevant to an 8-fixed 2, who I'm thinking would be more comfortable with it than most of the literature would have us believe.

That is a bit of an oversimplification, 2s don't just help people and demand appreciation. Pride would never allow us to admit we need such validation.



http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeTwoOverview.asp#.UtHcSvQ2YrU

The stress here is on being a good loving selfless person, but I think that's overly narrow. Anything that the 2 has a pride in being is what the 2 does to reinforce the self image.

Unhealthy 2's do manipulate people for "their own good", it's part of the unhealthy delusion that unhealthy types experience. The unhealthy 2 still thinks that he or she is being kind and helping the other person when really the other person is being outright controlled and kept out of the decision making process.

I didn't say 2s demand appreciation, I said they desired appreciation. There is a big difference there. Appreciation for their deeds fuels pride inside the 2.

Passion: Pride
Pride is the caused by the loss of the virtue of humility. But pride is said to be the root of all evil and underlies all of the Capital Sins, so to distinguish it further, we can also call this vainglory. Vainglory is a pride in one's own goodness, taking a special satisfaction in one's own virtue, seeing oneself only as a loving, well-intentioned person. The passion is not the tendency to be generous and kind, but the compulsion to call attention to one's generosity and kindness. This is "goodness" that calls attention to itself so that they will be admired for being selfless, praised for being humble, rewarded for being self-sacrificial, repaid for being generous, and so forth.

Another more subtle element to pride is the inability to admit that we are hurting, the unwillingness to acknowledge our own suffering and neediness. This part in each of us says "You've got problems, not me! I'm okay and I'm here to help you." But in fact, all of us, and particularly Twos, are terrified that we will break down and people will see how sad and lonely we are much of the time. Not only does pride prevent us from allowing people to see that we are in pain, it also prevents us from letting people see that we need anything, or that we are really trying to get something from others. Pride can also be seen as a fundamental denial of the loss of contact with Essence—particularly the loss of contact with qualities of real love.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp#.UtHqpfRDuvQ

 

[Haven]

I didn't say 2s demand appreciation, I said they desired appreciation.

Now that I think about it, 2s can sometimes demand appreciation.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Now that I think about it, 2s can sometimes demand appreciation.

They can. When they demand appreciation, that's when they are starting to go lower in health levels. Going from selfless to selfish in a sort of "Do you not even realize all I've done for you? What about me, huh? What do I get?" manner.
Everyone desires appreciation, but 2s at the very core want to be appreciated for their deeds and self.

 

[valaki]

Interesting discussion here, thanks. I'm going to just respond to everything relevant in order of posting.

I don't doubt that it's terrifying. At this moment you are being polite, you don't think so?

Lol you're funny Anyway, sure.

Rejection sucks, it hurts 2s more than it does other types. Rather than be rejected, it's easier to reject our own needs. I don't just mean romantic rejection, but from jobs, and friends too (and other things I would imagine).

Do you just mean it cheers you up as a distraction when you help people while you're in pain? As for rejecting own needs, I always thought of myself as pretty selfish in quite some things, but it's true that I can be very helpful too.

Not backing down from challenges = pride of a 2. But in other cases where your pride isn't at stake, it's not as important for you right?

Can you elaborate on how it's connected to pride for a 2?

Partly it is also because of the difficulties you have in describing yourself. 2s can have difficulty seeing themselves as they are.

I treat everyone just like myself in this sense, I don't usually focus on "who" or "what" someone is like.

Horrible, I just want to run away and not talk to anyone.

And do you feel a lot of emotions about it, any sadness?

8's also never back down from a challenge, and are more antagonizing than 2s in their assertiveness. (8's also have a form of the 2s fixation of pride called lust, meaning that they crave escalation and intensity but with a 3 fix are also reputation defending)

8's are also known to be incredible domineering and possessive of those they care about.

3 and 2s deal with rejection in similar ways, but a 3 is more likely to be deeply self-conscious about it and mask it with self-confidence whereas a 2 will seek the support of friends and allies or possibly keep helping people with personal problems in order to raise their self-esteem.

I don't really seek support with it, that just never comes to mind :/

For a 3, being self-conscious about it, what does it mean exactly?

3s have a harder time seeing who they are than 2s do. 3s actively mold their personality to fit the social structure, which 2w3s do as well, but 3s are much more chameleon-esque.

Oh here's the thing, I'm not social at all in this sense. Though I attributed it to having the So instinct as last.

If you experience rejection with anger combined with bitter contempt for yourself but mask it with self-confidence, I would say 8 with a 3 fix.
If you experience rejection with anger combined with bitter contempt for yourself but actively seek to do good deeds to cheer you up, I'd say 8 with 2 fix.

Well when it's really bad rejection, I just don't feel *anything*. I somehow automatically detach from everything. When it's in the category that I feel like I can deal with more directly, I do feel anger and frustration and able to react directly. If the masking with self-confidence is consciously done then nope I don't do that. I don't try to seek "good deeds" to cheer me up. It can be a good distraction to do whatever and helping someone else is just one of the things I can do.

Typical 3 and 8 responses here.

"Emotionally I just shut down" - Under negative or painful circumstances, Type 3s sub-consciously and somewhat consciously suppress their emotions so that they don't seem weak, fragile, or failing to themselves and the outside world.

The emotional detachment I talked about I don't do consciously at all. I don't see it as having anything to do with the outside world either. But this total "shut down" only happens with certain bad types of rejection.

Btw, when I read about 3's putting emotions aside for whatever goals, I always wonder how they can put anger aside..??

8's love challenges more than almost any other type (with 3 shortly behind), they love to express their self-confidence and love to feel the self-confident rush of beating a challenge or overcoming an obstacle (just as 3s do).

Yeah

Twos do indeed dominate others, although indirectly: they may be overbearing and controlling, although always under the guise of being concerned for others. When Eights attempt to dominate, they make it clear that they are in a power struggle with the other.) Twos and Eights are nevertheless similar in the deep feelings and passion they bring to their relationships, although the expression of their feelings and the effects they have on others are quite different.

Well that's the thing, in most cases, I don't try to put on a guise of being concerned for others. In most cases, I don't do that sort of thing at all because it's more about what I want, my needs and so on. When I'm helping someone, it's usually in the form of giving advice, or encouraging them. Though with some friends yes, I have also been controlling trying to make them change some things in their life for their own good.

A good way to tell a 2 and 8 apart is their behavior when unhealthy.

8's disintegrate to 5 and become much more antagonistic and untrusting of others (due to their new found 5-ish introversion and belief that the whole world is against them). 8's disintegration is akin to Antisocial Personality Disorder (Psychopathy/Sociopathy) and Sadistic Personality Disorder

2's disintegrate to 8 and become much more antagonistic but at the same time still emphasize their need for emotional appreciation and become "clingy" to people and begin manipulating people "for their own good". 2's disintegration is akin to Masochistic/Self-Defeating Personality Disorder.

I'm anything but a masochist I do see myself in the 5 disintegration though. :/

8's are almost always Thinking types in MBTI, 2s are almost always Feeling Types in MBTI, and that comes from the Thinking and 8's egocentricity and the Feeling and 2's self-sacrificing behavior.

I'm anything but self-sacrificing... though I'm willing to be very helpful with friends... to an extent. I don't want to be taken advantage of even if it's a friend.

An 8 with an extremely strong 3 fix will have the anger/lust/independent thinking of an 8 combined with the 3's need for approval, fame, and success, and will therefore be extremely reputation defending to the point of direct antagonism and social manipulation to reach the top of a social body when unhealthy.

I still don't relate to "social body" and any sort of social manipulation. Question, what does a 8 with 3 fix look like when they have the social instinct as the least preferred instinct?

Also, 2s desire appreciation for their good deeds and helping demeanor, where 3s desire appreciation for their achievements and successes.

I don't desire either particularly much but if I have to choose, it's 3 over 2. Just please don't overdo the appreciation, that's a pain in the ass. I really don't need the self-consciousness that comes out of hearing a lot of praise.

Maybe a very self righteous 2 (with a 1-fix maybe) would say it's "for their own good" but other 2s would not say the same thing. The point is that they have reached an impasse within where they can no longer deny their own needs, but their self image wont allow openly acting on them. Anyway I don't think this would be relevant to an 8-fixed 2, who I'm thinking would be more comfortable with it than most of the literature would have us believe.

Well I guess that's pretty deciding, as I don't have a self-image of a self-sacrificing person and I don't care to, either. I'm rather comfortable openly acting on my own needs.

"In a real way, Twos are dependent on the loving responses of others to validate their self-image—the good, selfless, loving person. The problem is that as long as Twos are focused on others to find indications of their own value and lovability, they fail to be fully aware of all of their own feelings and cannot recognize the lovable qualities within themselves"

The stress here is on being a good loving selfless person, but I think that's overly narrow. Anything that the 2 has a pride in being is what the 2 does to reinforce the self image.

I actually don't like to think of myself as a "good person". Well, "bad person" either, I just prefer not to get into anything moralistic. But definitely don't want to feel like "oooh I'm so good and loving" or "oh god, what a sinful person I am".

It's actually true though that I don't recognize so called lovable qualities in myself.

Passion: Pride
Pride is the caused by the loss of the virtue of humility. But pride is said to be the root of all evil and underlies all of the Capital Sins, so to distinguish it further, we can also call this vainglory. Vainglory is a pride in one's own goodness, taking a special satisfaction in one's own virtue, seeing oneself only as a loving, well-intentioned person. The passion is not the tendency to be generous and kind, but the compulsion to call attention to one's generosity and kindness. This is "goodness" that calls attention to itself so that they will be admired for being selfless, praised for being humble, rewarded for being self-sacrificial, repaid for being generous, and so forth.

Another more subtle element to pride is the inability to admit that we are hurting, the unwillingness to acknowledge our own suffering and neediness. This part in each of us says "You've got problems, not me! I'm okay and I'm here to help you." But in fact, all of us, and particularly Twos, are terrified that we will break down and people will see how sad and lonely we are much of the time. Not only does pride prevent us from allowing people to see that we are in pain, it also prevents us from letting people see that we need anything, or that we are really trying to get something from others. Pride can also be seen as a fundamental denial of the loss of contact with Essence—particularly the loss of contact with qualities of real love.

Interesting, thanks. I'm repeating myself but I don't have this vainglory thing, other kind of pride maybe but not this. Also this is so false, if you're being "generous" but expect to be "repaid" for it, you're not actually being generous.

Btw, did you see my earlier question on "what kind of anxiety 7w8 feels in this case? Do they notice their own anxiety and why in the first place do they feel it?".

Also, where did you see possibility of mistyping when you mentioned Forer Effect?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Interesting discussion here, thanks. I'm going to just respond to everything relevant in order of posting.




Lol you're funny Anyway, sure.




Do you just mean it cheers you up as a distraction when you help people while you're in pain? As for rejecting own needs, I always thought of myself as pretty selfish in quite some things, but it's true that I can be very helpful too.




Can you elaborate on how it's connected to pride for a 2?




I treat everyone just like myself in this sense, I don't usually focus on "who" or "what" someone is like.




And do you feel a lot of emotions about it, any sadness?




I don't really seek support with it, that just never comes to mind :/

For a 3, being self-conscious about it, what does it mean exactly?




Oh here's the thing, I'm not social at all in this sense. Though I attributed it to having the So instinct as last.




Well when it's really bad rejection, I just don't feel *anything*. I somehow automatically detach from everything. When it's in the category that I feel like I can deal with more directly, I do feel anger and frustration and able to react directly. If the masking with self-confidence is consciously done then nope I don't do that. I don't try to seek "good deeds" to cheer me up. It can be a good distraction to do whatever and helping someone else is just one of the things I can do.




The emotional detachment I talked about I don't do consciously at all. I don't see it as having anything to do with the outside world either. But this total "shut down" only happens with certain bad types of rejection.

Btw, when I read about 3's putting emotions aside for whatever goals, I always wonder how they can put anger aside..??




Yeah




Well that's the thing, in most cases, I don't try to put on a guise of being concerned for others. In most cases, I don't do that sort of thing at all because it's more about what I want, my needs and so on. When I'm helping someone, it's usually in the form of giving advice, or encouraging them. Though with some friends yes, I have also been controlling trying to make them change some things in their life for their own good.




I'm anything but a masochist I do see myself in the 5 disintegration though. :/




I'm anything but self-sacrificing... though I'm willing to be very helpful with friends... to an extent. I don't want to be taken advantage of even if it's a friend.




I still don't relate to "social body" and any sort of social manipulation. Question, what does a 8 with 3 fix look like when they have the social instinct as the least preferred instinct?




I don't desire either particularly much but if I have to choose, it's 3 over 2. Just please don't overdo the appreciation, that's a pain in the ass. I really don't need the self-consciousness that comes out of hearing a lot of praise.




Well I guess that's pretty deciding, as I don't have a self-image of a self-sacrificing person and I don't care to, either. I'm rather comfortable openly acting on my own needs.




I actually don't like to think of myself as a "good person". Well, "bad person" either, I just prefer not to get into anything moralistic. But definitely don't want to feel like "oooh I'm so good and loving" or "oh god, what a sinful person I am".

It's actually true though that I don't recognize so called lovable qualities in myself.




Interesting, thanks. I'm repeating myself but I don't have this vainglory thing, other kind of pride maybe but not this. Also this is so false, if you're being "generous" but expect to be "repaid" for it, you're not actually being generous.

Btw, did you see my earlier question on "what kind of anxiety 7w8 feels in this case? Do they notice their own anxiety and why in the first place do they feel it?".

Also, where did you see possibility of mistyping when you mentioned Forer Effect?

I think you may be a core 3 actually come to think of it. I'm a 3w4 sx/sp and I'm actually incredibly introverted (but that could be due to the fact that I'm an INTJ and that I have a 5 fix), but because I'm a core 3, I can play off social situations easily (which is why I originally typed as an extrovert).

I still see 8 shining clearly along with 3, and minuscule hints of 7, but you could easily be a 6 for your head fix I think.

The only types I definitely don't see: 1, 4, 5, and 9

I wish I could tell you what a 7w8's anxiety feels like, but I don't have it in any of my fixes, so I don't know.

If you were an introverted MBTI types with an 8 core, I could see an 8 being highly introverted especially with sx/sp (which is one of the rarer instinctual variants of 8w7). Ultimately, 8's stereotypes are just that, stereotypes, what makes an 8 is the sense of vulnerability, that if you don't act tough or fight, someone is going to control you or manipulate you. That's really all an 8 is. Similarly, what makes a 3 is the longing for success and the deep rooted fear of failure. It just so happens that these types have a majority that are very similar.

Drives:
1 - I must strive to be perfect, flawless, and just.
2 - I must help others.
3 - I must achieve success.
4 - I must be unique and special.
5 - I must be competent to survive.
6 - I must be secure and safe from my fears.
Counter-phobic 6 - I must fight my fear to be safe.
Prussian 6 - I must be loyal to the system and rules but to no authority to be secure. (Can flip-flop dramatically)
7 - I must be satisfied so that I do not feel pained or deprived.
8 - I must be aggressive to protect myself from being controlled or manipulated.
9 - I must be at peace.

 

[valaki]

I think you may be a core 3 actually come to think of it. I'm a 3w4 sx/sp and I'm actually incredibly introverted (but that could be due to the fact that I'm an INTJ and that I have a 5 fix), but because I'm a core 3, I can play off social situations easily (which is why I originally typed as an extrovert).

What seemed core 3?

As for you playing off social situations, what does that mean exactly?

(And yes I saw you're typing as INTJ now )

I can't do anything with social situations. I'm an outcast of society.

I actually find the thing with social masks disgusting. You should never say what you really think or do what you feel like doing, just fit in the group perfectly, act in whatever refined way to be popular, forcing shit on yourself to achieve that popularity goal, blahblahblah... No, fuck that.

The only way I could try "fitting in", is by simply doing nothing and that's incredibly draining. So I avoid that. And this is the only way because I don't have the slightest idea about the above things, how to adjust behaviour in a refined way. I just have this black and white way Either I'm myself or I attempt to totally "shut down" myself by being passive, which as I said is not something I could do for long. And don't want to, either.

Is this social last instinct or should a 3 be able to be more refined with social adaptation?

I still see 8 shining clearly along with 3, and minuscule hints of 7, but you could easily be a 6 for your head fix I think.

The only types I definitely don't see: 1, 4, 5, and 9

Right I also definitely don't see 1, 4 and 9. Why no 5 at all, though?

If you were an introverted MBTI types with an 8 core, I could see an 8 being highly introverted especially with sx/sp (which is one of the rarer instinctual variants of 8w7). Ultimately, 8's stereotypes are just that, stereotypes, what makes an 8 is the sense of vulnerability, that if you don't act tough or fight, someone is going to control you or manipulate you. That's really all an 8 is. Similarly, what makes a 3 is the longing for success and the deep rooted fear of failure. It just so happens that these types have a majority that are very similar.

Yeah, I see. To hell with the stereotypes ;p

I still need one bit of clarification. What kind of success does the 3 long for? Is success in this sense simply just meeting challenges? I'm guessing not because you said type 8 also cares about that.

Ohh and the deprivation thing of 7... is that the type 7 never getting what they want, never having anything good going on?


Drives:
1 - I must strive to be perfect, flawless, and just. - Nah (though being fair is something I like)
2 - I must help others. - I like to help others, sure. It doesn't feel like a "must", though with special friends I do consciously find it important.
3 - I must achieve success. - I asked above what kind of success.
4 - I must be unique and special. - Sure that sounds nice I just don't consciously do much for that, except sometimes with dressing style.
5 - I must be competent to survive. - Yeah some knowledge probably helps with surviving, I'm just never prepared like that
6 - I must be secure and safe from my fears. - I don't really care about focusing on fears.
Counter-phobic 6 - I must fight my fear to be safe. - I don't really care about focusing on this either
Prussian 6 - I must be loyal to the system and rules but to no authority to be secure. (Can flip-flop dramatically) - Nah
7 - I must be satisfied so that I do not feel pained or deprived. - Yeah, I like satisfaction. Sure I don't like deprivation but what does that mean exactly?
8 - I must be aggressive to protect myself from being controlled or manipulated. - Well I don't tell myself to "play tough" consciously but sure, anger and aggression comes easily and sure, I don't want to be controlled and definitely not manipulated.
9 - I must be at peace. - I don't terribly care that much about peace

 

[valaki]

There was this cool site earlier about misidentifications, I've pulled 8 vs 3 now from it:

8 and 3

Mistyping frequency: sometimes (usually 3s mistype as 8s).

Eight vs Three

Material & sexual dominance vs Social status - ahh, first one!
Seek power vs Seek validation - Depends what kind of power? I don't need validation.
Control vs Prestige - Control
Stirred by failure vs Scared of failure - I'm both stirred by failure and hate failure.
Forceful vs Adaptable - Forceful is easier. Trying to be adaptable doesn't last long.
Become intimidating vs Become devious - I don't know what I look like to others so can't answer this about looking intimidating. I can be either aggressive or devious though.
Combative vs Competitive - Hmm if combative means wanting to fight and competitive means just wanting the result, I do both at the same time.
Unconcerned with image vs Concerned with image - Usually blissfully unaware. Sometimes not so blissfully.
Crude vs Smooth - Crude, definitely
Defiant vs Well-mannered - Defiant lol yes


I analysed the comparison of 7 vs 8 in a previous post and I think that's much closer a tie than this.

However I'm open to arguments and still interested in what exactly "success" means for type 3.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

What seemed core 3?

As for you playing off social situations, what does that mean exactly?

(And yes I saw you're typing as INTJ now )

I can't do anything with social situations. I'm an outcast of society.

I actually find the thing with social masks disgusting. You should never say what you really think or do what you feel like doing, just fit in the group perfectly, act in whatever refined way to be popular, forcing shit on yourself to achieve that popularity goal, blahblahblah... No, fuck that.

The only way I could try "fitting in", is by simply doing nothing and that's incredibly draining. So I avoid that. And this is the only way because I don't have the slightest idea about the above things, how to adjust behaviour in a refined way. I just have this black and white way Either I'm myself or I attempt to totally "shut down" myself by being passive, which as I said is not something I could do for long. And don't want to, either.

Is this social last instinct or should a 3 be able to be more refined with social adaptation?




Right I also definitely don't see 1, 4 and 9. Why no 5 at all, though?




Yeah, I see. To hell with the stereotypes ;p

I still need one bit of clarification. What kind of success does the 3 long for? Is success in this sense simply just meeting challenges? I'm guessing not because you said type 8 also cares about that.

Ohh and the deprivation thing of 7... is that the type 7 never getting what they want, never having anything good going on?


Drives:
1 - I must strive to be perfect, flawless, and just. - Nah (though being fair is something I like)
2 - I must help others. - I like to help others, sure. It doesn't feel like a "must", though with special friends I do consciously find it important.
3 - I must achieve success. - I asked above what kind of success.
4 - I must be unique and special. - Sure that sounds nice I just don't consciously do much for that, except sometimes with dressing style.
5 - I must be competent to survive. - Yeah some knowledge probably helps with surviving, I'm just never prepared like that
6 - I must be secure and safe from my fears. - I don't really care about focusing on fears.
Counter-phobic 6 - I must fight my fear to be safe. - I don't really care about focusing on this either
Prussian 6 - I must be loyal to the system and rules but to no authority to be secure. (Can flip-flop dramatically) - Nah
7 - I must be satisfied so that I do not feel pained or deprived. - Yeah, I like satisfaction. Sure I don't like deprivation but what does that mean exactly?
8 - I must be aggressive to protect myself from being controlled or manipulated. - Well I don't tell myself to "play tough" consciously but sure, anger and aggression comes easily and sure, I don't want to be controlled and definitely not manipulated.
9 - I must be at peace. - I don't terribly care that much about peace

The reason I mask socially is because I don't want to show my cards, it's a 5 with an 8 fix thing (Having an enneagram type and its disintegrating type in your trifix is kind of weird) which is amplified by the 3's chameleon abilities. Basically what happens is that 5's absolutely love privacy and hate intrusion, and 8's want to keep everything that might be vulnerable or targeted as a weak spot underneath a strong exterior, so it generates this effect of not wanting to really share anything about yourself and keep it all private. Now add in the 3's fear of being looked down upon and the 3's molding abilities and you get me.

As for what I mean about the 3's drive for success, that's the beauty of the enneagram, it's ambiguous. Intellectual 3s want to be academically successful, Extroverted 3s want to be socially successful and climb society's ladder, Entrepreneurial 3s want to be financially successful and etc. What the 3 revolves around is a drive to success, if I were to assign an emotion to the 3, it would be ambition.

The 7 doesn't want to be held back from something, and that can manifest itself in many ways, be it a sport, a career, or etc.

 

[valaki]

The reason I mask socially is because I don't want to show my cards, it's a 5 with an 8 fix thing (Having an enneagram type and its disintegrating type in your trifix is kind of weird) which is amplified by the 3's chameleon abilities. Basically what happens is that 5's absolutely love privacy and hate intrusion, and 8's want to keep everything that might be vulnerable or targeted as a weak spot underneath a strong exterior, so it generates this effect of not wanting to really share anything about yourself and keep it all private. Now add in the 3's fear of being looked down upon and the 3's molding abilities and you get me.

As for what I mean about the 3's drive for success, that's the beauty of the enneagram, it's ambiguous. Intellectual 3s want to be academically successful, Extroverted 3s want to be socially successful and climb society's ladder, Entrepreneurial 3s want to be financially successful and etc. What the 3 revolves around is a drive to success, if I were to assign an emotion to the 3, it would be ambition.

The 7 doesn't want to be held back from something, and that can manifest itself in many ways, be it a sport, a career, or etc.

Does the definition of success involve other people's validation? Then I identify more with 7 than with 3. Freedom is important Other people's validation is just a pain in the ass.

I guess I don't understand what you meant by social mask. I meant an explicitly built persona thingie, not simply just privacy. Otherwise, I relate to the 5 thing and the 8 thing too here. I've always thought of myself as pretty open but only to a degree. Until a certain point, I will show everything freely to anyone and beyond that point I show nothing to anyone at all. Someone pointed this out to me before and it's true.

I have thought about 5 for head fix before, though then I don't know where to fit the 7. When did you start to disintegrate into 5 from 8? Because I can identify a period in my life when something started for me that can easily be called just that. Then that would explain strong 5-ish things about me. Though honestly, even before that I had some 5-ish stuff.

I also read your type thread now and mmmm you're giving me ideas! Maybe I'm 8-7-4 too! My dressing style is distinctly a 4 motivation. This is for sure. I don't have a lot of 4 otherwise, only glimpses here and there but I always liked 4.

But 8-5-3 also makes sense with triple emotional suppression :O Only strong emotion really left is anger and related emotions.