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  1. #71
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    @valaki I think I misunderstood. I saw a lot of 2 in you, but you have none of the image concerns. You aren't an image type, I think 8 works for you.

    While I'm here I should probably apologize to @Sanjuro for doubting his 8ness as well

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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    @valaki I think I misunderstood. I saw a lot of 2 in you, but you have none of the image concerns. You aren't an image type, I think 8 works for you.

    While I'm here I should probably apologize to @Sanjuro for doubting his 8ness as well

    Alright no worries. What was it that you misunderstood specifically or was it a more general thing?

    Oh so now I get to know @Sanjuro's type after all? ;p

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    @Haven

    Ah btw.. that thing about 5 vs 9, do you have a way to explain the difference? I'm still curious about that.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Kay, I'll go through this with you. This is just my perspective, so take it all with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I'm going to write this in one go, as usual. No illnesses etc but my life isn't going that well right now. Ah well about illnesses, about a year ago, I managed to get out of something on my own that could've become a mental illness if I had let it happen.
    Duly noted.

    I'm pretty sure I'm an Id type. I see 8 but I see 7 as well, or maybe I just don't understand type 7 well enough :p

    3 is also an Id type but I don't see myself in being motivated by external validation/image.
    Out of curiousity, which sources have you consulted? I didn't really understand the types till I read a variety of authors--internet's next to useless to acquire a better understanding.

    I would also like to decide tritype.
    This particular questionnaire's prolly better for core type, but we can discuss that too.

    My instinctual variant stacking is pretty much So-last, IMO. Sx/Sp I think.
    I got that sense the first time around.

    Staring at the walls, if that's to be taken literally, then I have an empty mind, no emotions either. It's actually a pretty good state for me, just staring at the wall thinking of nothing. My way of meditation really.

    This is my default state too, calm state, no emotions, no nothing, not thinking of much, perhaps some fleeting thoughts here and there. Like some fleeting clouds on the sky. A bit of feeling of readiness.

    (I want to mention that I'm pretty much like this as well when I'm focused on doing something, just probably much less of any fleeting thoughts. Thinking if required for the task is well integrated with this "doing", that is, the thinking doesn't feel like a separate mental state. It's best described as thinking on the move, reacting to whatever.

    Well of course if the task is something heavily intellectual, then I do actual mental thinking more continuously, still with a strong focus and emotionally even more detached. But that now is no longer my baseline stuff so nevermind)
    I re-read that, and it sounds like you're not, for instance, a 6 or 4. My only other thought would be Se--they've got that "on your toes" state of mental readiness.

    I partially retract my bid on ENTP for now.

    O_o

    Well alright... I can describe what it feels like. It's good :p. Feeling confident. Being one with the world everywhere. On the move or waiting to react. Feeling alive wanting and getting/doing shit Also when I get angry about whatever :p

    Interacting with whoever comes my way just for the sake of interaction, I feel it's all fun

    Then sometimes contemplative, fascinated by watching my own mental world.
    Again, that does sound sort of Se more than any particular Etype. Maybe 7.
    Just the main stuff

    Smart
    Adept at life/getting stuff
    Got energy
    Strong willed, willful, strong mentally
    Enthusiastic
    Autonomous = basically going by my own goddamn head, not controlled by others
    Got a bad temper :p & too argumentative / aggressive
    Impatient
    Stubborn as fuck
    Analysing shit too deep
    Needy / Demanding
    Self-centered / entitled
    Irresponsible (to a degree).. quite reliable sometimes though
    Helpful
    Nice / kind <--> Antisocial
    Not open ("wall" blocking others out)

    Eh I guess the above list works. :p I do agree with the items in it. And whatever else I said about what it feels like to be me
    Well I can see why you're between 7 and 8 from this. The "not open" thing speaks more to 8, though. 8s do that thing where they make up their mind and all opposing evidence is minimized. I associate the "wall" with the gut triad--I've seen my 9w1 parents do this too. I had a 1w2 roommate with whom it was like speaking to a brick wall.

    Anger issues -> didn't manage to deal with it, I'm like this, unlikeable or not
    Issues with relationships -> Not really close to anyone. That doesn't match my er, ideal, so once I wanted to deal with it, I guess didn't work out so I dunno how to *shrug*
    Social issues -> part of that's outside my control nevermind that, the other part is just me not having enough focus on groups, being also antisocial somewhat (I used to be really antisocial as a kid, that changed a lot when I got interested in social groups), I guess either people accept me this way or not
    Procrastination, crazy life style -> Trying to be better at this :p Self-indulgent life style without restrictions on its own is quite okay to me :p, I do have to catch up on some responsibilities however. I'm managing thank-you
    This speaks more to 8 than 7 (mind you, my issues don't sound like my core type, myself).

    The groups thing doesn't make you social-last necessarily. I'm sure I'm sp-last, but I'm fairly group-averse myself. This actually speaks to the withdrawn types (4, 5, 9), and often 8. They are the outsiders more than 7s are.

    I think your procrastination is more Perceiver than Etype associated.

    Well... Being permanently nice and adapting to everyone, in the process giving up my own will, my own needs and thoughts and suppressing emotions (well I mean anger really). Also, being controlled by whatever rules/authority/people. Oh and giving up, just in general, not me.
    Sounds like you need to grow to 2.

    Oh... a bit more diplomacy even when I don't feel like it? It could be useful really.

    Well I can do it if I need to get something that way, but even that's hard and only doable temporarily

    More social ability without getting confrontational?

    And whatever issues I mentioned above
    You're probably not a 3.

    Again, it's the 8s who are the "anti-social" ones. They use charm and persuasion, much like 7s, but as means to an end. I think 7s can use it a bit more consistently.

    First, I didn't leave friends.

    Well, I did talk to some guy regularly (online, offline) and one day he told me he was trying to manipulate me emotionally or something, I blocked him right away (on messenger) and I really don't do that by default to anyone. Few years later we did talk a bit again, but meh, I guess life moved on a lot for both of us :p. So how relevant this is, ok, he was sort of a friend, I could say...um, random guy friend. Not the same as a female friend really :p (I'm female if that wasn't yet obvious)

    There was a female friend who I didn't specifically leave, I just didn't bother to keep in contact for a while after I felt she got demanding in a way that it was almost like taking advantage of me. No I don't hate or resent her for that, there was a lot more to her really, just the relationship seemed to "degrade" into that over time (long story). Perhaps it can be renewed.

    Friends (either guys or girls :P ) didn't leave me until last year, when paradoxically after I decided I should pay more attention to friendships, I had two break soon and one of them was my most important one. I didn't get any real reasoning for first one, just BS. Second one, she said she lost trust in me and she was actually quite good at planting blame on me but clearly if anyone had to be blamed then it was her fault just as much as mine just fine. Btw nope, I didn't do anything that deserved this. Quite the opposite actually - I just didn't manage to sort out something for her that I promised I would try and she got upset over that. Completely unrealistic way of thinking she had there.

    Well the other part of this question... I did leave romantic relationships, actually all of the more serious relationships I was in, I was the one to break it up. The "why", eh, I wasn't feeling the love, the intimacy. I simply didn't get the devotion I wanted. Though when I decided to split up, my partners usually wanted to cling on to me. Pain in the...
    I'm seeing a trend towards feeling that others are taking advantage or manipulating you in some way, which is far more of an 8 perception than a 7 perception. You've also got an eye toward realism and I notice you've kept friends and they've been the first ones to move on. You've emphasized devotion, even if you did get sick of others' clinging. I see that as being 8ish as well. The 7s resist others' clinging, but wouldn't be as likely to see devotion as a core requirement (not impossible, of course, esp for a sx-first of any type, but you know).

    7: Enthusiasm, Some optimism, freedom, strong willed to get what I need :p (in the 7 way or not?), quick thinker, like variety, I do like some planning (and executing the plans), distractions from issues, addictive personality
    Oh and I don't want a dull existence :p

    8: Anger :p, Autonomy, realism, strong willed, competitive, like intensity, I do try to deal with those issues sooner or later
    I don't want to be submissive or give up on anything.

    I think both have: Self-indulgence (addictive personality too?), pragmatism and yeah both are Id types...

    Oh and I can't decide between gluttony and lust. Oh, it would be useful if I could. Need to understand them more. :/
    Yeah, the best thing you can do is read more about it in this case.

    However, I'll say that what you've listed under 7 is also applicable toward sx-firsts and Perceivers (I strongly identify, and I'm no 7). Against 7 is the fact that you do feel the responsibility to "deal" with things sooner or later and try to finish what you start. 7s tend to be a bit less grounded (again, not impossible for a 7 to be responsible and finish things, but just a consideration).

    I'll also copypaste this comparison between 7 and 8:

    "Seek intensity vs Seek variety" - I seek both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?

    "Want control vs Want freedom" - I want both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?

    "Physical energy vs Nervous energy" - If physical energy is when I do physical things, anything involving doing/moving, and if nervous energy means being able to solve mental tasks and being inspired by mental activity then I again can say I'm both, I can have high energy levels for both. Though I would say physical energy was first, I developed my mind more later in life if that makes sense... though I did have mental activities as a kid too, just less easily inspired or how to put that.

    "Hard-working vs Playful" - Both! Fun can come from the hard working too.

    "Focused vs Scattered" - The first word pair where it's easier to choose. I'll say first, I hate being scattered, I don't feel good that way. I like focus. With certain specific tasks (simple physical stuff), I can sometimes try multitasking as a fun challenge and that's still a focused way of doing the job. If I'm browsing online, I hate having too many open tabs so I don't. Also, I don't have too many interests being active in the same time period because I focus into one of them deep and the rest just isn't interesting. However, I will change to a new interest later, after a long-ish time period, after having done a lot with previous interest. This switching happens unconsciously, I notice after the fact.

    "Conscientious vs Irresponsible" - I am both. I take some things in life really seriously so I'm conscientious with those and I enjoy self-discipline in working for goals, OTOH I can have a problem with self-discipline in living life in general and I'm not really strongly morally principled so I'm irresponsible too..

    "Realist vs Optimist" - Both :p I don't believe BS rose coloured glasses stuff, I'm simply incapable of doing that and disinterested in viewing things in that light and I notice the negative in situations easily, glass was always half empty for me :/ compelling me to refill the glass, of course :P. But I'm optimistic in terms of not thinking of failure, so when I go refill the glass, I don't stop to think "what if I can't" and I'm trusting in future in general and I like to encourage and inspire others.

    "Gain power vs Have fun" - Gain what kind of power exactly, that's vague to me. Power to me in general primarily means having resources for control. But I'll use a concrete example, in sport I want to be more powerful&strong, my concept of having fun in a sport really only comes from that or directly from competition. I don't play sports just to "have fun" in a light way. So, is that a good example? Otoh, I don't work hard to gain social powers as I'm not really part of society that much :/ so I'm just having fun with my life in that sense. Still, I have gained some material powers and am proud of that.

    "Authoritarian vs Egalitarian" - I like the egalitarian view in theory. I'm not sure about how I go about it in practice. The only thing that comes to mind now, I can be pretty authoritarian in telling my opinion and get surprised if others take it the bad way.

    "Vengeful vs Tolerant" - I can be both. Obviously not at the same time :p I can take a lot of shit if I decide to, from friends; of course I don't let anyone take advantage of me - friend or not - but I am otherwise really tolerant with their issues. As for being explicitly vengeful, it's usually immediate small things on the spot, I have never sat brooding and concocting a great plan to take real crazy revenge on someone. I guess I didn't need to either. But this is why I don't think of myself as that vengeful. But then it might be because of my black and white thinking about these concepts so I don't notice the "small things" I mentioned (only after much conscious attention).
    Um yep. Still on the 8 side here. I think you're a Perceiver 8 with a strong 7-wing and probably a 7-fix.

    Two things struck me--one is your sense of realism--8s (and also 6s) are the ones who start in with "I don't believe in that rose-colored glasses bullshit". Core 7s, even with a strong 8 wing, are less likely to frame it that way.

    Second is your vengeance. You claim it's short term, done angrily in the moment, and for that reason you don't think of yourself as vengeful. That's precisely accurate--read Naranjo's words on 8:

    t is the angry and punitive characteristic of ennea-type VIII Ichazo addresses in his calling the fixation of the lusty “revenge.” The word, however, has the drawback of being associated with the most overtly vindictive of the characters, ennea-type IV, whose hatefulness sometimes manifests in explicit vendettas. In this overt sense type VIII is not strikingly vindictive; on the contrary, the character retaliates angrily at the moment and gets quickly over his irritation. The revenge which is most present in ennea-type VIII is (aside from “getting even” in the immediate response) a long-term one, in which the individual takes justice in his own hands in response to the pain, humiliation, and impotence felt in early childhood. It is as if he wanted to turn the tables on the world and, after having suffered frustration or humiliation for the pleasure of others, has determined that it is now his turn to have pleasure even if it involves the pain of others. Or especially then—for in this, too, may lie revenge.
    7: not scattered, not heavily future focused, I don't do idealization of situation at all...

    8: not sure what this "physical presence" thing means... is this meant socially? Then no.

    OK, for the rest see as above.
    8s are more present-focused. The "physical presence" revolves more around being "physically inclined" in my own observations, not necessarily that everyone notices your presence right away (and even if they do, it's generally something the 8 is oblivious to).

    What do you mean by "points"? If you meant other types:

    2: I like to help (However, I really don't put other people's needs in front of mine.)
    3: I'm seen as successful (I however don't care about externally originated motivation.)
    4: I like special/unique stuff (I'm however not adept at building an identity by my emotionality.)
    5: I like concepts inside my mind (I don't however relate to feeling secure by withdrawing into my own mind.)
    Actually "points" meant "parts of the types you don't identify with". But, this is OK too.

    If you meant the types I don't relate to:
    1: Sometimes I'm a bit idealistic and I like some perfection in work though not to such an extreme degree... just as long as it doesn't get in the way too much
    6: I can be questioning about theories
    9: I can be lazy and asleep a lot lol... I can tune out easily when nothing's going on, I think that's 9'ish too? Maybe not? Sometimes I am seen as mediator when people start a fight with each other.
    Well here 9 is the one that actually sounds closest to being psychologically related to you. You're perfectionism/idealism could be simply related to type 7. Could also be age-related--I'm getting the sense you're still quite young.

    What do you mean about this hidden love need? :P (If anyone got links/resources on that enneagram wise, I'm interested though)

    As for my conscious attitude, I think it's really easiest to just not deal with this topic in my life. If I were to deal with it, well I know I require a kind of devotion and intensity, but otherwise in general, I relate to the inability to connect, as described on some enneagram sites. I'm not saying that's good at all, really doesn't match an "ideal" of mine.
    Yeah, it's the "inability to connect" that makes me think of you as a rejection type.

    You can start here for a description of 8--if you visit the other forums, there's one for the other types stickied at the top of each:
    http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-fo...8-chapter.html

    Naranjo does discuss each type's love need, and you will get a deeper understanding of each type than most people on the internet.

    (Somewhat edited version of my reply from previous questionnaire)
    I don't have a constantly active super-ego telling me "should". Quite honestly my superego is pretty weak hah.

    Sometimes yes, I think to myself: ok, I should get up and do this task, should do that task before deadline (...I brush this aside very easily).

    Less often I get the following:

    Should be more polite to people, talk to people more in a social way, say "hi" to everyone and don't be argumentative.
    Should open up and talk about issues to friends. Should be loving (...can't do it, block).
    Should detach from wanting things so much (no!).
    Should take responsibility for what I've done (bad things). Well ok I don't really get this message actually :p Only once when I was in a really crazy state, not myself.
    Still sounds like you need to grow to 2!

    I... don't really have an ideal in this sense?

    Well at least no reason to be hard on myself lol

    Except for what I said about procrastination, I can be a bit hard on myself for that.

    It would also be nice to be more likeable but I guess I can't do anything about that. I do get a bit affected if I'm told things related to this, though. "Violated" isn't a bad word for that.

    I've also been a bit hard on myself about friendship issues. When I got blamed (as mentioned earlier), I was hard on myself for not trying harder to provide support for her. (But then I realised that I'd actually been unaware of her actual needs because she didn't let me know and I am not a mind reader.)

    Which of the following ideals resonate with you the most, and why? Rank them.

    I think this makes most sense but I can't say it's a real ideal because I don't have an image of it and I don't strive for it that terribly much:
    - to be a lovable person & to be loving... "benevolent" sounds good too but is maybe asking for too much (I mean, in the sense of consciously trying to be that, noo)

    I like the idea of this too but quite honestly I'm really not doing much about it except when taking care of my looks (= trying to be unique then):
    - to be sensitive, original, unique, and creative

    I don't have a problem with these so why call them ideals:
    - to be knowledgeable
    - to be accomplished and successful
    - to be powerful, strong, unassailable.

    I don't really care about this at all:
    - to be devoted and loyal to a cause
    - to strive to become/behave like a good person

    This only with certain prerequisites:
    - to be devoted and loyal to a person (not a cause)

    I don't understand what this one means:
    - to be "okay", having it together ????
    Being "okay" is the 7 one. It means like not being seen with "problems" or people thinking you can't cope. Or that you don't know wtf you're talking about.

    Other than that, I see why @Haven has suggested 2 for you based on this feedback.

    Deprived or Abandoned (not sure which): when I was a small kid (3-10 years old), by my mother for periods (she was away traveling). I felt it almost physically. My father not showing interest or not in a way I could notice. I felt disappointed about that and then later I felt antagonism. After I got older, no feeling of being deprived/abandoned.

    Wronged: by my father, beating up us kids. By some stupid teachers/classes (as a whole class yes, no problem if it was just individual kids), in school, as small kid and as teenager too.

    I was also upset about: not placing so good in one contest (alright I didn't prepare enough ;p). uhh whatever else, can't remember more now.

    But really I was just upset about being a kid in general, too small, no control. Sometimes also about being an "outcast" in school. (Someone else instead was seen as "leader".) Also upset by my father. Also by the fact that I was the youngest kid in the family.

    I'm not upset about most of these things in retrospect. This all was such a long time ago. My father and I got okay later, much later. Still upsetting memory of some teachers/classes (see "wronged" section above) but I don't think of the past often.

    I think that it was a result of all that, that I had the feeling I was left to deal with life on my own. I never thought of talking about problems with family or anything really or even getting truly involved in family life. Let alone school life etc. I think this is a good summary of "felt sense" in my childhood. I don't think that changed much since then. I kind of see this as both 7 and 8 though...
    Here's one of the major reasons I first thought 8--you're aware of being a social outcast, and you're aware of the injustices you suffered at the hands of those who had more power. You're also very present-focused in ways that I don't exactly associate with 7s.

    Your sense of non-involvement speaks to social-first or social-last, however.

    Well mine's as above, I guess.

    Also, in social area I sometimes get a mix of these:
    - I have a sense of being unimportant, insignificant, and undeserving of attention
    - I feel isolated, cut off, and ultimately separate
    - I've had a sense of being rejectible
    That's 9, 5, and 2.

    If you're an 8, it wouldn't surprise me that you took your rejection this way.
    As a kid mostly I had, as mentioned:
    - People have wronged and messed with me
    That's 8, again.

    I relate to these:

    - Rejection, being needy, and not being loved --> well okay I've experienced this and wasn't totally mortified. Still don't want it.
    - Weak and not being on top of things --> I haven't experienced feeling this way much but trust me I wouldn't like to. I guess when I was feeling *really down* I was a bit afraid of this.
    2 and 8.

    - Failure --> Eh just try again. This is not in the sense of something not working out. It's mostly about how I wouldn't want to give up some daunting task, that's what I'd mean by failure.
    This was supposed to be for 3--your response, again, suggests 8 to me. You fear giving up your will over failing per se.

    I relate a bit to these maybe:
    - Being abandoned, sadness, feeling lost --> I don't want to feel this way.
    - Entanglements and losing what I have --> I don't understand what "entanglements" means??? But I wouldn't want to lose what I have, in a material sense, etc.
    It means like owing people or having your time and energy at their disposal, not yours. 4 and 5 incidentally.

    So, I will reiterate that you're a core 8. I'd type you as 8w7.

    I think sx/sp is accurate (though if you have many social issues, you may want to check to see if you're one of those anti-social soc-firsts.)

    I'd suggest your tritype as 872, maybe 874. Something tells me you're not 873, though I can't substantiate that.

    I take back ENTP--I think you're likely an ESxP. You seem to be Pe-dom (i.e., an ExxP).

    Of course, I'm just one random commentor--I encourage you to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Hope it helps.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Kay, I'll go through this with you. This is just my perspective, so take it all with a grain of salt.

    I'm pretty sure I'm an Id type. I see 8 but I see 7 as well, or maybe I just don't understand type 7 well enough :p

    3 is also an Id type but I don't see myself in being motivated by external validation/image.
    Out of curiousity, which sources have you consulted? I didn't really understand the types till I read a variety of authors--internet's next to useless to acquire a better understanding.

    I would also like to decide tritype.
    This particular questionnaire's prolly better for core type, but we can discuss that too.

    My instinctual variant stacking is pretty much So-last, IMO. Sx/Sp I think.
    I got that sense the first time around.

    Staring at the walls, if that's to be taken literally, then I have an empty mind, no emotions either. It's actually a pretty good state for me, just staring at the wall thinking of nothing. My way of meditation really.

    This is my default state too, calm state, no emotions, no nothing, not thinking of much, perhaps some fleeting thoughts here and there. Like some fleeting clouds on the sky. A bit of feeling of readiness.

    (I want to mention that I'm pretty much like this as well when I'm focused on doing something, just probably much less of any fleeting thoughts. Thinking if required for the task is well integrated with this "doing", that is, the thinking doesn't feel like a separate mental state. It's best described as thinking on the move, reacting to whatever.

    Well of course if the task is something heavily intellectual, then I do actual mental thinking more continuously, still with a strong focus and emotionally even more detached. But that now is no longer my baseline stuff so nevermind)
    I re-read that, and it sounds like you're not, for instance, a 6 or 4. My only other thought would be Se--they've got that "on your toes" state of mental readiness.

    I partially retract my bid on ENTP for now.

    O_o

    Well alright... I can describe what it feels like. It's good :p. Feeling confident. Being one with the world everywhere. On the move or waiting to react. Feeling alive wanting and getting/doing shit Also when I get angry about whatever :p

    Interacting with whoever comes my way just for the sake of interaction, I feel it's all fun

    Then sometimes contemplative, fascinated by watching my own mental world.
    Again, that does sound sort of Se more than any particular Etype. Maybe 7.
    Just the main stuff

    Smart
    Adept at life/getting stuff
    Got energy
    Strong willed, willful, strong mentally
    Enthusiastic
    Autonomous = basically going by my own goddamn head, not controlled by others
    Got a bad temper :p & too argumentative / aggressive
    Impatient
    Stubborn as fuck
    Analysing shit too deep
    Needy / Demanding
    Self-centered / entitled
    Irresponsible (to a degree).. quite reliable sometimes though
    Helpful
    Nice / kind <--> Antisocial
    Not open ("wall" blocking others out)

    Eh I guess the above list works. :p I do agree with the items in it. And whatever else I said about what it feels like to be me
    Well I can see why you're between 7 and 8 from this. The "not open" thing speaks more to 8, though. 8s do that thing where they make up their mind and all opposing evidence is minimized. I associate the "wall" with the gut triad--I've seen my 9w1 parents do this too. I had a 1w2 roommate with whom it was like speaking to a brick wall.

    Anger issues -> didn't manage to deal with it, I'm like this, unlikeable or not
    Issues with relationships -> Not really close to anyone. That doesn't match my er, ideal, so once I wanted to deal with it, I guess didn't work out so I dunno how to *shrug*
    Social issues -> part of that's outside my control nevermind that, the other part is just me not having enough focus on groups, being also antisocial somewhat (I used to be really antisocial as a kid, that changed a lot when I got interested in social groups), I guess either people accept me this way or not
    Procrastination, crazy life style -> Trying to be better at this :p Self-indulgent life style without restrictions on its own is quite okay to me :p, I do have to catch up on some responsibilities however. I'm managing thank-you
    This speaks more to 8 than 7 (mind you, my issues don't sound like my core type, myself).

    The groups thing doesn't make you social-last necessarily. I'm sure I'm sp-last, but I'm fairly group-averse myself. This actually speaks to the withdrawn types (4, 5, 9), and often 8. They are the outsiders more than 7s are.

    I think your procrastination is more Perceiver than Etype associated.

    Well... Being permanently nice and adapting to everyone, in the process giving up my own will, my own needs and thoughts and suppressing emotions (well I mean anger really). Also, being controlled by whatever rules/authority/people. Oh and giving up, just in general, not me.
    Sounds like you need to grow to 2.

    Oh... a bit more diplomacy even when I don't feel like it? It could be useful really.

    Well I can do it if I need to get something that way, but even that's hard and only doable temporarily

    More social ability without getting confrontational?

    And whatever issues I mentioned above
    You're probably not a 3.

    Again, it's the 8s who are the "anti-social" ones. They use charm and persuasion, much like 7s, but as means to an end. I think 7s can use it a bit more consistently.

    First, I didn't leave friends.

    Well, I did talk to some guy regularly (online, offline) and one day he told me he was trying to manipulate me emotionally or something, I blocked him right away (on messenger) and I really don't do that by default to anyone. Few years later we did talk a bit again, but meh, I guess life moved on a lot for both of us :p. So how relevant this is, ok, he was sort of a friend, I could say...um, random guy friend. Not the same as a female friend really :p (I'm female if that wasn't yet obvious)

    There was a female friend who I didn't specifically leave, I just didn't bother to keep in contact for a while after I felt she got demanding in a way that it was almost like taking advantage of me. No I don't hate or resent her for that, there was a lot more to her really, just the relationship seemed to "degrade" into that over time (long story). Perhaps it can be renewed.

    Friends (either guys or girls :P ) didn't leave me until last year, when paradoxically after I decided I should pay more attention to friendships, I had two break soon and one of them was my most important one. I didn't get any real reasoning for first one, just BS. Second one, she said she lost trust in me and she was actually quite good at planting blame on me but clearly if anyone had to be blamed then it was her fault just as much as mine just fine. Btw nope, I didn't do anything that deserved this. Quite the opposite actually - I just didn't manage to sort out something for her that I promised I would try and she got upset over that. Completely unrealistic way of thinking she had there.

    Well the other part of this question... I did leave romantic relationships, actually all of the more serious relationships I was in, I was the one to break it up. The "why", eh, I wasn't feeling the love, the intimacy. I simply didn't get the devotion I wanted. Though when I decided to split up, my partners usually wanted to cling on to me. Pain in the...
    I'm seeing a trend towards feeling that others are taking advantage or manipulating you in some way, which is far more of an 8 perception than a 7 perception. You've also got an eye toward realism and I notice you've kept friends and they've been the first ones to move on. You've emphasized devotion, even if you did get sick of others' clinging. I see that as being 8ish as well. The 7s resist others' clinging, but wouldn't be as likely to see devotion as a core requirement (not impossible, of course, esp for a sx-first of any type, but you know).

    7: Enthusiasm, Some optimism, freedom, strong willed to get what I need :p (in the 7 way or not?), quick thinker, like variety, I do like some planning (and executing the plans), distractions from issues, addictive personality
    Oh and I don't want a dull existence :p

    8: Anger :p, Autonomy, realism, strong willed, competitive, like intensity, I do try to deal with those issues sooner or later
    I don't want to be submissive or give up on anything.

    I think both have: Self-indulgence (addictive personality too?), pragmatism and yeah both are Id types...

    Oh and I can't decide between gluttony and lust. Oh, it would be useful if I could. Need to understand them more. :/
    Yeah, the best thing you can do is read more about it in this case.

    However, I'll say that what you've listed under 7 is also applicable toward sx-firsts and Perceivers (I strongly identify, and I'm no 7). Against 7 is the fact that you do feel the responsibility to "deal" with things sooner or later and try to finish what you start. 7s tend to be a bit less grounded (again, not impossible for a 7 to be responsible and finish things, but just a consideration).

    I'll also copypaste this comparison between 7 and 8:

    "Seek intensity vs Seek variety" - I seek both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?

    "Want control vs Want freedom" - I want both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?

    "Physical energy vs Nervous energy" - If physical energy is when I do physical things, anything involving doing/moving, and if nervous energy means being able to solve mental tasks and being inspired by mental activity then I again can say I'm both, I can have high energy levels for both. Though I would say physical energy was first, I developed my mind more later in life if that makes sense... though I did have mental activities as a kid too, just less easily inspired or how to put that.

    "Hard-working vs Playful" - Both! Fun can come from the hard working too.

    "Focused vs Scattered" - The first word pair where it's easier to choose. I'll say first, I hate being scattered, I don't feel good that way. I like focus. With certain specific tasks (simple physical stuff), I can sometimes try multitasking as a fun challenge and that's still a focused way of doing the job. If I'm browsing online, I hate having too many open tabs so I don't. Also, I don't have too many interests being active in the same time period because I focus into one of them deep and the rest just isn't interesting. However, I will change to a new interest later, after a long-ish time period, after having done a lot with previous interest. This switching happens unconsciously, I notice after the fact.

    "Conscientious vs Irresponsible" - I am both. I take some things in life really seriously so I'm conscientious with those and I enjoy self-discipline in working for goals, OTOH I can have a problem with self-discipline in living life in general and I'm not really strongly morally principled so I'm irresponsible too..

    "Realist vs Optimist" - Both :p I don't believe BS rose coloured glasses stuff, I'm simply incapable of doing that and disinterested in viewing things in that light and I notice the negative in situations easily, glass was always half empty for me :/ compelling me to refill the glass, of course :P. But I'm optimistic in terms of not thinking of failure, so when I go refill the glass, I don't stop to think "what if I can't" and I'm trusting in future in general and I like to encourage and inspire others.

    "Gain power vs Have fun" - Gain what kind of power exactly, that's vague to me. Power to me in general primarily means having resources for control. But I'll use a concrete example, in sport I want to be more powerful&strong, my concept of having fun in a sport really only comes from that or directly from competition. I don't play sports just to "have fun" in a light way. So, is that a good example? Otoh, I don't work hard to gain social powers as I'm not really part of society that much :/ so I'm just having fun with my life in that sense. Still, I have gained some material powers and am proud of that.

    "Authoritarian vs Egalitarian" - I like the egalitarian view in theory. I'm not sure about how I go about it in practice. The only thing that comes to mind now, I can be pretty authoritarian in telling my opinion and get surprised if others take it the bad way.

    "Vengeful vs Tolerant" - I can be both. Obviously not at the same time :p I can take a lot of shit if I decide to, from friends; of course I don't let anyone take advantage of me - friend or not - but I am otherwise really tolerant with their issues. As for being explicitly vengeful, it's usually immediate small things on the spot, I have never sat brooding and concocting a great plan to take real crazy revenge on someone. I guess I didn't need to either. But this is why I don't think of myself as that vengeful. But then it might be because of my black and white thinking about these concepts so I don't notice the "small things" I mentioned (only after much conscious attention).
    Um yep. Still on the 8 side here. I think you're a Perceiver 8 with a strong 7-wing and probably a 7-fix.

    Two things struck me--one is your sense of realism--8s (and also 6s) are the ones who start in with "I don't believe in that rose-colored glasses bullshit". Core 7s, even with a strong 8 wing, are less likely to frame it that way.

    Second is your vengeance. You claim it's short term, done angrily in the moment, and for that reason you don't think of yourself as vengeful. That's precisely accurate--read Naranjo's words on 8:

    t is the angry and punitive characteristic of ennea-type VIII Ichazo addresses in his calling the fixation of the lusty “revenge.” The word, however, has the drawback of being associated with the most overtly vindictive of the characters, ennea-type IV, whose hatefulness sometimes manifests in explicit vendettas. In this overt sense type VIII is not strikingly vindictive; on the contrary, the character retaliates angrily at the moment and gets quickly over his irritation. The revenge which is most present in ennea-type VIII is (aside from “getting even” in the immediate response) a long-term one, in which the individual takes justice in his own hands in response to the pain, humiliation, and impotence felt in early childhood. It is as if he wanted to turn the tables on the world and, after having suffered frustration or humiliation for the pleasure of others, has determined that it is now his turn to have pleasure even if it involves the pain of others. Or especially then—for in this, too, may lie revenge.
    7: not scattered, not heavily future focused, I don't do idealization of situation at all...

    8: not sure what this "physical presence" thing means... is this meant socially? Then no.

    OK, for the rest see as above.
    8s are more present-focused. The "physical presence" revolves more around being "physically inclined" in my own observations, not necessarily that everyone notices your presence right away (and even if they do, it's generally something the 8 is oblivious to).

    What do you mean by "points"? If you meant other types:

    2: I like to help (However, I really don't put other people's needs in front of mine.)
    3: I'm seen as successful (I however don't care about externally originated motivation.)
    4: I like special/unique stuff (I'm however not adept at building an identity by my emotionality.)
    5: I like concepts inside my mind (I don't however relate to feeling secure by withdrawing into my own mind.)
    Actually "points" meant "parts of the types you don't identify with". But, this is OK too.

    If you meant the types I don't relate to:
    1: Sometimes I'm a bit idealistic and I like some perfection in work though not to such an extreme degree... just as long as it doesn't get in the way too much
    6: I can be questioning about theories
    9: I can be lazy and asleep a lot lol... I can tune out easily when nothing's going on, I think that's 9'ish too? Maybe not? Sometimes I am seen as mediator when people start a fight with each other.
    Well here 9 is the one that actually sounds closest to being psychologically related to you. You're perfectionism/idealism could be simply related to type 7. Could also be age-related--I'm getting the sense you're still quite young.

    What do you mean about this hidden love need? :P (If anyone got links/resources on that enneagram wise, I'm interested though)

    As for my conscious attitude, I think it's really easiest to just not deal with this topic in my life. If I were to deal with it, well I know I require a kind of devotion and intensity, but otherwise in general, I relate to the inability to connect, as described on some enneagram sites. I'm not saying that's good at all, really doesn't match an "ideal" of mine.
    Yeah, it's the "inability to connect" that makes me think of you as a rejection type.

    You can start here for a description of 8--if you visit the other forums, there's one for the other types stickied at the top of each:
    http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-fo...8-chapter.html

    Naranjo does discuss each type's love need, and you will get a deeper understanding of each type than most people on the internet.

    (Somewhat edited version of my reply from previous questionnaire)
    I don't have a constantly active super-ego telling me "should". Quite honestly my superego is pretty weak hah.

    Sometimes yes, I think to myself: ok, I should get up and do this task, should do that task before deadline (...I brush this aside very easily).

    Less often I get the following:

    Should be more polite to people, talk to people more in a social way, say "hi" to everyone and don't be argumentative.
    Should open up and talk about issues to friends. Should be loving (...can't do it, block).
    Should detach from wanting things so much (no!).
    Should take responsibility for what I've done (bad things). Well ok I don't really get this message actually :p Only once when I was in a really crazy state, not myself.
    Still sounds like you need to grow to 2!

    I... don't really have an ideal in this sense?

    Well at least no reason to be hard on myself lol

    Except for what I said about procrastination, I can be a bit hard on myself for that.

    It would also be nice to be more likeable but I guess I can't do anything about that. I do get a bit affected if I'm told things related to this, though. "Violated" isn't a bad word for that.

    I've also been a bit hard on myself about friendship issues. When I got blamed (as mentioned earlier), I was hard on myself for not trying harder to provide support for her. (But then I realised that I'd actually been unaware of her actual needs because she didn't let me know and I am not a mind reader.)

    Which of the following ideals resonate with you the most, and why? Rank them.

    I think this makes most sense but I can't say it's a real ideal because I don't have an image of it and I don't strive for it that terribly much:
    - to be a lovable person & to be loving... "benevolent" sounds good too but is maybe asking for too much (I mean, in the sense of consciously trying to be that, noo)

    I like the idea of this too but quite honestly I'm really not doing much about it except when taking care of my looks (= trying to be unique then):
    - to be sensitive, original, unique, and creative

    I don't have a problem with these so why call them ideals:
    - to be knowledgeable
    - to be accomplished and successful
    - to be powerful, strong, unassailable.

    I don't really care about this at all:
    - to be devoted and loyal to a cause
    - to strive to become/behave like a good person

    This only with certain prerequisites:
    - to be devoted and loyal to a person (not a cause)

    I don't understand what this one means:
    - to be "okay", having it together ????
    Being "okay" is the 7 one. It means like not being seen with "problems" or people thinking you can't cope. Or that you don't know wtf you're talking about.

    Other than that, I see why @Haven has suggested 2 for you based on this feedback.

    Deprived or Abandoned (not sure which): when I was a small kid (3-10 years old), by my mother for periods (she was away traveling). I felt it almost physically. My father not showing interest or not in a way I could notice. I felt disappointed about that and then later I felt antagonism. After I got older, no feeling of being deprived/abandoned.

    Wronged: by my father, beating up us kids. By some stupid teachers/classes (as a whole class yes, no problem if it was just individual kids), in school, as small kid and as teenager too.

    I was also upset about: not placing so good in one contest (alright I didn't prepare enough ;p). uhh whatever else, can't remember more now.

    But really I was just upset about being a kid in general, too small, no control. Sometimes also about being an "outcast" in school. (Someone else instead was seen as "leader".) Also upset by my father. Also by the fact that I was the youngest kid in the family.

    I'm not upset about most of these things in retrospect. This all was such a long time ago. My father and I got okay later, much later. Still upsetting memory of some teachers/classes (see "wronged" section above) but I don't think of the past often.

    I think that it was a result of all that, that I had the feeling I was left to deal with life on my own. I never thought of talking about problems with family or anything really or even getting truly involved in family life. Let alone school life etc. I think this is a good summary of "felt sense" in my childhood. I don't think that changed much since then. I kind of see this as both 7 and 8 though...
    Here's one of the major reasons I first thought 8--you're aware of being a social outcast, and you're aware of the injustices you suffered at the hands of those who had more power. You're also very present-focused in ways that I don't exactly associate with 7s.

    Your sense of non-involvement speaks to social-first or social-last, however.

    Well mine's as above, I guess.

    Also, in social area I sometimes get a mix of these:
    - I have a sense of being unimportant, insignificant, and undeserving of attention
    - I feel isolated, cut off, and ultimately separate
    - I've had a sense of being rejectible
    That's 9, 5, and 2.

    If you're an 8, it wouldn't surprise me that you took your rejection this way.
    As a kid mostly I had, as mentioned:
    - People have wronged and messed with me
    That's 8, again.

    I relate to these:

    - Rejection, being needy, and not being loved --> well okay I've experienced this and wasn't totally mortified. Still don't want it.
    - Weak and not being on top of things --> I haven't experienced feeling this way much but trust me I wouldn't like to. I guess when I was feeling *really down* I was a bit afraid of this.
    2 and 8.

    - Failure --> Eh just try again. This is not in the sense of something not working out. It's mostly about how I wouldn't want to give up some daunting task, that's what I'd mean by failure.
    This was supposed to be for 3--your response, again, suggests 8 to me. You fear giving up your will over failing per se.

    I relate a bit to these maybe:
    - Being abandoned, sadness, feeling lost --> I don't want to feel this way.
    - Entanglements and losing what I have --> I don't understand what "entanglements" means??? But I wouldn't want to lose what I have, in a material sense, etc.
    It means like owing people or having your time and energy at their disposal, not yours. 4 and 5 incidentally.

    So, I will reiterate that you're a core 8. I'd type you as 8w7.

    I think sx/sp is accurate (though if you have many social issues, you may want to check to see if you're one of those anti-social soc-firsts.)

    I'd suggest your tritype as 872, maybe 874. Something tells me you're not 873, though I can't substantiate that.

    I take back ENTP--I think you're likely an ESxP. You seem to be Pe-dom (i.e., an ExxP).

    Of course, I'm just one random commentor--I encourage you to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Hope it helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    @valaki I think I misunderstood. I saw a lot of 2 in you, but you have none of the image concerns. You aren't an image type, I think 8 works for you.

    While I'm here I should probably apologize to @Sanjuro for doubting his 8ness as well

    No worries mate. I doubted it for a long time myself.

    Cat's out of the bag now I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Kay, I'll go through this with you. This is just my perspective, so take it all with a grain of salt.
    Thank you!


    I'm going to write this in one go, as usual. No illnesses etc but my life isn't going that well right now. Ah well about illnesses, about a year ago, I managed to get out of something on my own that could've become a mental illness if I had let it happen.
    Duly noted.
    Out of curiosity, did it tell you anything relevant?


    Out of curiousity, which sources have you consulted? I didn't really understand the types till I read a variety of authors--internet's next to useless to acquire a better understanding.
    Uh, I can't list all the resources for you but I can say that initially I didn't really "get" it anyway so whatever I read back then doesn't count too much. It's an understanding slowly gained over time. Anyway I read stuff on the some enneagram sites (enneagraminstitute, the enneagram blog (blogspot), oceanmoonshine, these come to mind now) and my brother is really into enneagram so he got a few books as well, I skimmed through them but that was a while ago, just trying to guess at my type back then thus read superficially only. I didn't like the type stereotypes in these books anyway..

    He had these books:

    The Wisdom of the Enneagram (Don Richard Riso - Russ Hudson)
    The Enneagram of Liberation (Eli Jaxon-Bear)
    The Enneagram (Richard Rohr - Andreas Ebert)


    I re-read that, and it sounds like you're not, for instance, a 6 or 4. My only other thought would be Se--they've got that "on your toes" state of mental readiness.
    Yes I've heard that before that it's Se makes sense to me. I like how you considered not just enneagram


    I partially retract my bid on ENTP for now.
    Btw what made you think ENTP originally? Did I just generally seem like an intuitive type?


    Again, that does sound sort of Se more than any particular Etype. Maybe 7.
    That brings up a question I've had lingering in the back of my mind for a while, does ESxP 7 work differently with regard to present vs future orientedness as compared to ENxP 7? Se after all is focused on the present, type 7 is not so much, or how do the two work together?


    Well I can see why you're between 7 and 8 from this.
    Heh yeah glad you understood my dilemma here


    The "not open" thing speaks more to 8, though. 8s do that thing where they make up their mind and all opposing evidence is minimized.
    Lol meh I do that a lot. People hate it :/ :p

    Though it's again really not that simple, I *can* be convinced to change my view if someone's persistent and logical enough. But that's not obvious from the way I go about things, from my style. So I tend to explicitly say this to people but they never believe me on it :p


    I associate the "wall" with the gut triad--I've seen my 9w1 parents do this too. I had a 1w2 roommate with whom it was like speaking to a brick wall.
    Well by that I meant when people try to get to know things about me. I guess you meant the same?


    This speaks more to 8 than 7 (mind you, my issues don't sound like my core type, myself).
    How did you figure out your type then and what was your previous typing? Really curious..


    The groups thing doesn't make you social-last necessarily. I'm sure I'm sp-last, but I'm fairly group-averse myself.
    I don't know. I'm pretty sure I was typical So-last until I was about 13. By that I mean I enjoyed interaction within a group but I didn't seek it out and I was blissfully unaware of related things most of the time. Though yes as time went on I got more aware of being an outsider, what's more, an outcast of sorts. Still I didn't think that much about it, not saying it was always great but I was just fine being this way in general. Then at 13, I got interested in groups stuff, but I didn't have the social skills to do anything with that interest and things just got worse actually. So I ended up being really aloof in high school and people misunderstood my attitude, thought I looked down on them etc. I guess it contributed that I didn't have to study to still get the best grades, a lot ahead the whole class. Quite some conflict resulted from that misunderstanding after a while (and from other things as well, but this is a long story). Just to make that story complete, at the end of high school I decided to isolate myself physically and temporarily became really withdrawn like a 5 I guess. That disintegration thing to 5 makes a lot more sense to be honest, instead of integration to 5 which would be core 7.

    Also I'm group-averse in terms of not going by group think, not following others. I could be ok with groups stuff if I was in a leading position but even then I wouldn't expect people to blindly follow my opinion without thinking. With thinking okay :p I prefer to think of people as independent individuals.

    Well does that say anything about the social instinct?


    I think your procrastination is more Perceiver than Etype associated.
    Could be


    Sounds like you need to grow to 2.
    Yeah but how does an 8 do that? I mean it sounds all nice lol but it goes against my default tendencies. Not that I thought "growing" was an easy thing


    Again, it's the 8s who are the "anti-social" ones. They use charm and persuasion, much like 7s, but as means to an end. I think 7s can use it a bit more consistently.
    What do you mean about 7's being more consistent with it? They're just charming by default? I don't see myself in that when descriptions of 7 talk about that.. For me it's so much more mood dependent. If I'm in the right mood I can be charming and yes also as means to an end.


    I'm seeing a trend towards feeling that others are taking advantage or manipulating you in some way, which is far more of an 8 perception than a 7 perception. You've also got an eye toward realism and I notice you've kept friends and they've been the first ones to move on.
    What do you make of that fact (the bolded) or why did you mention it here?

    I agree about your observations otherwise yes

    Btw as for 7, I read 7w8's also have realism, sometimes even labelled as Realist :p Well, 8w7 in the same source was labelled as Maverick, I relate to that just as well.


    You've emphasized devotion, even if you did get sick of others' clinging. I see that as being 8ish as well. The 7s resist others' clinging, but wouldn't be as likely to see devotion as a core requirement (not impossible, of course, esp for a sx-first of any type, but you know).
    The clinging was only when I told them I was breaking up with them...

    What would be core requirement for a typical 7?


    Yeah, the best thing you can do is read more about it in this case.
    You got a good description somewhere? Online or book

    Though I was reading one that was pretty good, at http://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com


    Um yep. Still on the 8 side here. I think you're a Perceiver 8 with a strong 7-wing and probably a 7-fix.
    That could be


    Second is your vengeance. You claim it's short term, done angrily in the moment, and for that reason you don't think of yourself as vengeful. That's precisely accurate--read Naranjo's words on 8:
    Eh interesting I relate to that.

    Just this isn't clear: "has determined that it is now his turn to have pleasure even if it involves the pain of others". Is this done consciously? Usually I don't really consciously try to have pleasure and cause pain in a sadistic way... I have to be in a really bad state to actually be like that. My default is more, I just don't pay attention, not considerate about whether others are okay with my stuff, but it's not done intentionally. If I'm made aware that someone's hurt by whatever I said/did, I'll try to care about it. I could also put it this way, most of the time I don't look at people as even people to hurt. My default is more this impersonal attitude. Even when angry, I still wouldn't say I'm very conscious about trying to hurt others except, as I said, if I'm in a really bad state.

    Did that explanation make any sense?


    8s are more present-focused. The "physical presence" revolves more around being "physically inclined" in my own observations, not necessarily that everyone notices your presence right away (and even if they do, it's generally something the 8 is oblivious to).
    Physically inclined in what sense, you mean, interested in physical things as opposed to mental? (And you're right, I tend to be oblivious to my impact on others)


    Well here 9 is the one that actually sounds closest to being psychologically related to you. You're perfectionism/idealism could be simply related to type 7. Could also be age-related--I'm getting the sense you're still quite young.
    Yes 9 struck me that way. Except that I'm really not that terribly passive and definitely not conflict avoidant

    As for my age, I'm not really younger than you are according to your profile, but the idealism stuff does come from an earlier age.


    You can start here for a description of 8--if you visit the other forums, there's one for the other types stickied at the top of each:
    http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-fo...8-chapter.html

    Naranjo does discuss each type's love need, and you will get a deeper understanding of each type than most people on the internet.
    Thanks


    Still sounds like you need to grow to 2!
    :rolling eyes:

    Actually, I can be pretty 2-ish at times, especially in relationships that I want to take seriously, that has been discussed in this thread earlier with @Haven

    It's just that I don't see how I would be 2-ish continuously. My mood will just change sooner or later, pretty reactive really.


    Being "okay" is the 7 one. It means like not being seen with "problems" or people thinking you can't cope. Or that you don't know wtf you're talking about.
    OK, I see. I don't really worry about people seeing me as someone who can't cope. I actually give the opposite impression as far as I know from what they say to me.

    Otoh I don't really tell many people what problems I have if I have problems, part of the wall thingie.


    Here's one of the major reasons I first thought 8--you're aware of being a social outcast, and you're aware of the injustices you suffered at the hands of those who had more power. You're also very present-focused in ways that I don't exactly associate with 7s.
    OK. Btw a question, the stuff about feeling abandoned/deprived (still not sure which lol), is that type related in any way?


    Your sense of non-involvement speaks to social-first or social-last, however.
    Is it possible to have been So-last until I turned 13 or so, then change to So-first? :p

    ...or that's something else. This social instinct thing is reminiscent of Fe as well, isn't it.


    This was supposed to be for 3--your response, again, suggests 8 to me. You fear giving up your will over failing per se.
    What does a 3 fear exactly about failure? I guess I haven't fully understood that yet. I mean, I get that they link it to feeling worthless but what is failure to them exactly? If they fail at some goal, don't they just try again?


    It means like owing people or having your time and energy at their disposal, not yours. 4 and 5 incidentally.
    Okay, I don't relate to that entanglements thing then. I'm not worried about spending my time and energy in whatever way I want, including spending it on people if I want.

    I don't feel I'm owing people anything either. Example, if I get given a gift, I don't feel I owe them by returning the favour by e.g. giving them another gift that's worth about the same amount of money. Of course if I'm financially in the same position and I care about the person then I will probably be happy to give them a gift anyway and not because I was given one. I know most people don't work this way and I have no idea why I'm different with this *shrug* Don't know if that's type related.


    So, I will reiterate that you're a core 8. I'd type you as 8w7.

    I think sx/sp is accurate (though if you have many social issues, you may want to check to see if you're one of those anti-social soc-firsts.)

    I'd suggest your tritype as 872, maybe 874. Something tells me you're not 873, though I can't substantiate that.

    I take back ENTP--I think you're likely an ESxP. You seem to be Pe-dom (i.e., an ExxP).

    Of course, I'm just one random commentor--I encourage you to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Hope it helps.
    Yes thanks it helps Don't worry about doing my own conclusions lol.

    Hmm... Can you say more about antisocial So-firsts?

    Tritype: Yes I was thinking recently that I have no 3 in tritype at all. I'm discovering maybe I have a 4 side, though it wouldn't be that strong. In that case 8-7(7-8)-4.

    As for 2 as the image fix, good question really, how would that be different from just having 8's connection to 2?

    About MBTI, yeah, I don't relate to Ne if going by functions. If ESxP, guess I would have to be one that has an inner world too but otherwise I do relate to Se.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    No worries mate. I doubted it for a long time myself.

    Cat's out of the bag now I guess.
    Hah, so, what bad stereotype/opinion did you have about 8's before? :p

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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Out of curiosity, did it tell you anything relevant?
    Tell you the truth, not really. But I did have an instance in my own life where I went slightly panicky and loopy and wound up begging for meds in the doctors office convinced I was going insane.

    Uh, I can't list all the resources for you but I can say that initially I didn't really "get" it anyway so whatever I read back then doesn't count too much. It's an understanding slowly gained over time. Anyway I read stuff on the some enneagram sites (enneagraminstitute, the enneagram blog (blogspot), oceanmoonshine, these come to mind now) and my brother is really into enneagram so he got a few books as well, I skimmed through them but that was a while ago, just trying to guess at my type back then thus read superficially only. I didn't like the type stereotypes in these books anyway..

    He had these books:

    The Wisdom of the Enneagram (Don Richard Riso - Russ Hudson)
    The Enneagram of Liberation (Eli Jaxon-Bear)
    The Enneagram (Richard Rohr - Andreas Ebert)
    Ocean Moonshine is good. The problem is when you skim everything--that's what I did at first, I just read the "good parts" and consequently, I was lost on many of the finer points.

    The books you've listed there are OK I guess. I haven't read the second two, but I understand Richard Rohr is a bit loopy. Wisdom is the one I started with, but my own type wasn't clear from it; it discusses personality types rather than each type's psychological underpinnings.

    It's helped me to read the works of Helen Palmer, Naranjo, Maitri, Tom Condon, and Riso and Hudson's other works as well (Personality Types goes into health levels and what to expect from types at each level). Naranjo and Maitri in particular are prone to discussing the actual psychology of the types rather than descriptors of personality.

    Yes I've heard that before that it's Se makes sense to me. I like how you considered not just enneagram
    My own functions, I am convinced, make me atypical, and I've heard this from other ENTP 8s. I consider a lot of options and am prone to changing my mind and adapting to others--according to many, this makes me a core 6 and a 3-fixer (I'm so not).

    So, I'm aware that there's more than one process that goes on and I try to remember that when I type others.

    Btw what made you think ENTP originally? Did I just generally seem like an intuitive type?
    I saw that you seemed "Perceivery", mainly. MANY of the 8s involved in enneagram stuff are ENTPs, so it just seemed natural. Upon a more careful reading, you seem more Se.

    Still, that's just a personal observation. I'm always getting told I sound like an Fi-user online, and I know I'm not--so, do your own investigation here.

    That brings up a question I've had lingering in the back of my mind for a while, does ESxP 7 work differently with regard to present vs future orientedness as compared to ENxP 7? Se after all is focused on the present, type 7 is not so much, or how do the two work together?
    Honestly, I'm not sure. I do know one ESTP 7w8 who's like, Um...SENSOR BIAS. I have no future orientation!! There is sort of an ENxP bias in most 7 descriptions, which may skew things. But 7s do anticipate the next fun thing to do (hence the future orientation; common to head types) even if they're not futurists per se.

    Though it's again really not that simple, I *can* be convinced to change my view if someone's persistent and logical enough. But that's not obvious from the way I go about things, from my style. So I tend to explicitly say this to people but they never believe me on it :p
    Yes, the truth is more important; most people aren't persistent enough to actually lay out a huge case for this, though.

    Well by that I meant when people try to get to know things about me. I guess you meant the same?
    In a lot of ways, actually. What you mention is surely one of them.

    How did you figure out your type then and what was your previous typing? Really curious..
    Oh God...it took me like 15 years. Part of the problem was only reading the good parts of Wisdom and Personality Types and then relying on the internet for more information (I didn't know there was other stuff out there).

    I saw myself (and still do) as being closest to 4w5 or 5w4. That's where all the crappy parts of my personality really are. Yet neither one seemed quite right. They say if you can't figure out your type, you're likely a 6 or 9, and since I am no 9, I typed as 6 for over a year when I got into online commenting.

    The only way I got away with being typed as 6 is because I was ignorant, and I just wound up pissing everyone off by bitching about 6 descriptions all the time. After reading Ocean Moonshine, I typed as 7, then realized I'm basically too negative to be a core 7. Finally I gave up and just ruled myself 4w5.

    Then I bought a bunch of books and realized I don't identify with 4 as much as I thought I did. It's still my heart-fix, though. Painfully obviously.

    So...yeah...I've typed as most things at some point or another.

    I don't know. I'm pretty sure I was typical So-last until I was about 13. By that I mean I enjoyed interaction within a group but I didn't seek it out and I was blissfully unaware of related things most of the time. Though yes as time went on I got more aware of being an outsider, what's more, an outcast of sorts. Still I didn't think that much about it, not saying it was always great but I was just fine being this way in general. Then at 13, I got interested in groups stuff, but I didn't have the social skills to do anything with that interest and things just got worse actually. So I ended up being really aloof in high school and people misunderstood my attitude, thought I looked down on them etc. I guess it contributed that I didn't have to study to still get the best grades, a lot ahead the whole class. Quite some conflict resulted from that misunderstanding after a while (and from other things as well, but this is a long story). Just to make that story complete, at the end of high school I decided to isolate myself physically and temporarily became really withdrawn like a 5 I guess. That disintegration thing to 5 makes a lot more sense to be honest, instead of integration to 5 which would be core 7.

    Also I'm group-averse in terms of not going by group think, not following others. I could be ok with groups stuff if I was in a leading position but even then I wouldn't expect people to blindly follow my opinion without thinking. With thinking okay :p I prefer to think of people as independent individuals.

    Well does that say anything about the social instinct?
    Well to be honest, what you're saying here isn't necessarily social-instinct related. It's not necessarily about "groups" and stuff. Especially as an 8, I'd expect you not to be able to go along with the group. I'd expect you not to feel like you "need" anyone, etc.

    According to my current understanding, social seems to be more about interconnections--many socials (or social seconds) are interested in diplomacy, world news, international affairs, other cultures, social animals, or something else that emphasizes the interconnectedness of lives.

    I was an outcast in high school myself (actually pretty much my entire life) and was sort of oblivious to everyone's stupid social hierarchy. In my graduating class of 100 people, I couldn't even tell you who the popular kids were, for instance. Didn't have social skills (I had to rebuild them in college, and even then, I largely failed). I was withdrawn and honestly somewhat depressed.

    Yet I've come to think of myself as having a strong social instinct simply because I will sacrifice for the greater good, I consider myself to be a "global citizen", and I am aware of the fact that all people are beholden to each other. My mom is social-last, and she really does have this sort of "naivete" about this stuff--she doesn't care. So yeah. It can be hard to test for (I still sometimes question it, but my sp skills seem to suck more than my awareness of others).

    Yeah but how does an 8 do that? I mean it sounds all nice lol but it goes against my default tendencies. Not that I thought "growing" was an easy thing
    No idea. I think Riso and Hudson recommend building upon your inherent strengths, and the "growing" happens naturally. I personally can't make myself be "nicey nice" unless I'm mocking someone else, so clearly that's not the way to do it.

    What do you mean about 7's being more consistent with it? They're just charming by default? I don't see myself in that when descriptions of 7 talk about that.. For me it's so much more mood dependent. If I'm in the right mood I can be charming and yes also as means to an end.
    Sevens use "charm" as their first line of defense. They're not always charming, of course, but it's their sort of way of getting off the hook. I'd imagine an 8w7 or 6w7 would be able to utilize the same strategies, though it might be quicker to crash.

    What do you make of that fact (the bolded) or why did you mention it here?
    Not much, simply that you've not been the one compelled to move on. Mainly restating what you just wrote, I guess. It could be interpreted in any number of ways, not terribly type specific.

    What would be core requirement for a typical 7?
    Sevens can be quite loyal and devoted, but they often have a need for leeway in a relationship and I think the "lack of devotion" thing is something they're less likely to hone in on. That's not set in stone, though.
    You got a good description somewhere? Online or book

    Though I was reading one that was pretty good, at http://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com
    Ocean Moonshine's good. I did type as 7 based on that, though.

    Mainly, I'd recommend Naranjo in the link I provided prior, as well as reading the authors I've mentioned cover to cover. You sort of have to build a composite and ask yourself what's really going on at a base level.

    Just this isn't clear: "has determined that it is now his turn to have pleasure even if it involves the pain of others". Is this done consciously? Usually I don't really consciously try to have pleasure and cause pain in a sadistic way... I have to be in a really bad state to actually be like that. My default is more, I just don't pay attention, not considerate about whether others are okay with my stuff, but it's not done intentionally. If I'm made aware that someone's hurt by whatever I said/did, I'll try to care about it. I could also put it this way, most of the time I don't look at people as even people to hurt. My default is more this impersonal attitude. Even when angry, I still wouldn't say I'm very conscious about trying to hurt others except, as I said, if I'm in a really bad state.
    Naranjo writes about the unhealthy, neurotic stuff each type does. I don't think you see that behavior until MUCH lower in the levels--if you're average-to-healthy you won't manifest this overtly. It may result in inconsideration, but any semi-normal person (regardless of type) isn't going to just hurt others for fun.

    Yeah, there are probably ways this happens subconsciously..."I'm going to enjoy this ice cream cone even if you have to wait an extra 15 minutes for me to finish" kind of thinking, trying to "beat the system", or being involved in exploitative business practices, for instance. But you shouldn't be a total asshole at normal stages, no. (This, incidentally, is one of those "douchebag" stereotypes I had about 8s.)

    Physically inclined in what sense, you mean, interested in physical things as opposed to mental? (And you're right, I tend to be oblivious to my impact on others)
    Yes, that. Maybe an inclination toward needing to physically discharge anger. Many 8s are athletic and/or have obscene amounts of stamina. Dismissing overly intellectual stuff as lame and impractical. Stuff like that.

    Yes 9 struck me that way. Except that I'm really not that terribly passive and definitely not conflict avoidant
    If you're an 8, I wouldn't expect you to see yourself this way.

    As for my age, I'm not really younger than you are according to your profile, but the idealism stuff does come from an earlier age.
    People were always telling me I was "too idealistic" as a youth as well. I maintain they just didn't care.

    Thanks
    Welcome/

    :rolling eyes:

    Actually, I can be pretty 2-ish at times, especially in relationships that I want to take seriously, that has been discussed in this thread earlier with @Haven

    It's just that I don't see how I would be 2-ish continuously. My mood will just change sooner or later, pretty reactive really.
    I haven't had the time to read the whole thread, actually. But, I think, again, the best bet is just to make you the best "you" you can be, and the 2 stuff comes naturally.

    OK. Btw a question, the stuff about feeling abandoned/deprived (still not sure which lol), is that type related in any way?
    Well 4s recall feeling "abandoned" or at least unmirrored by their care-takers. It's 7s who sometimes feel that they were "deprived" and will do everything to keep that from happening again.

    Is it possible to have been So-last until I turned 13 or so, then change to So-first? :p

    ...or that's something else. This social instinct thing is reminiscent of Fe as well, isn't it.
    It is! If you type as ExTP, you may well find that your Fe was just undeveloped.

    I think our instincts are inborn. However, puberty can bring massive changes that cause things to click into place that weren't obvious before. I think you saw my post about how I became totally warlike, which wasn't my way of thinking prior.

    What does a 3 fear exactly about failure? I guess I haven't fully understood that yet. I mean, I get that they link it to feeling worthless but what is failure to them exactly? If they fail at some goal, don't they just try again?
    I'm not exactly sure, not being a core 3, but I get the sense their identity is tied to their outward measurement success...so they'll do everything to prevent a failure; or if they do fail, they'll try to reframe it, e.g., "Failure is just a step on the road to success". Their ego rests on being a success in some form, so there's an orientation towards the succeed/fail dichotomy. If you don't have a major issue with that, you're likely not a core 3.

    Okay, I don't relate to that entanglements thing then. I'm not worried about spending my time and energy in whatever way I want, including spending it on people if I want.

    I don't feel I'm owing people anything either. Example, if I get given a gift, I don't feel I owe them by returning the favour by e.g. giving them another gift that's worth about the same amount of money. Of course if I'm financially in the same position and I care about the person then I will probably be happy to give them a gift anyway and not because I was given one. I know most people don't work this way and I have no idea why I'm different with this *shrug* Don't know if that's type related.
    Well, it means you're probably not a 5 or 2, but not necessarily more than that.

    Hmm... Can you say more about antisocial So-firsts?
    If you're the "anti-social" manifestation, you basically hate everything and everyone, and may follow social affairs in some form without being able to disconnect from it. Even if you hate it.

    I think it's like a high school reject bitching and moaning about all the idiotic popular kids, claiming he doesn't want any part of it, yet clearly the individual is obsessing over the structures and hierarchy. You hate people and their "stuff", but you can't detach. You refuse to participate, but in doing so you are still pinned to that sector of life. (Note that you don't have to follow high school politics to be social first--this could revolve around the news, politics, international affairs, community projects, online communities, whatever.)

    Tritype: Yes I was thinking recently that I have no 3 in tritype at all. I'm discovering maybe I have a 4 side, though it wouldn't be that strong. In that case 8-7(7-8)-4.

    As for 2 as the image fix, good question really, how would that be different from just having 8's connection to 2?
    Unfortunately, I can't speak with any authority on that. I think the folks who invented tritype peg 2-fixed 8s as being the big-spender, Mama- or Papa-bear types.

    About MBTI, yeah, I don't relate to Ne if going by functions. If ESxP, guess I would have to be one that has an inner world too but otherwise I do relate to Se.
    Everyone has an inner world! If yours is extremely important, I'd suggest the 4-fix. Sexual 7s can that sort of fantasy life, too, though.

    Hah, so, what bad stereotype/opinion did you have about 8's before? :p
    Well, like what I mentioned above, in addition to the type just being too "awesome" for me. I hate all the stuff about 8s being "leaders" and having all this self-confidence. All the loud, in-your-face, extrovert stuff that gets tossed around.

    I'm a withdrawn loner. I have no social skills and people always tell me I don't have enough "self-confidence" (which isn't my inner experience, btw, but damn that external identification thingy that extraverts do). I'm cognitively extraverted, but no one would guess this of me based on my anti-social behavior. I'm quiet, though I do have a volatile temper. You don't see the ugly side of me till you get close to me and have to deal with my mercurial moods.

    Plus I hate that "survival of the fittest" stuff. HATE IT. Social darwinism sucks. They make it sound like 8s all tout this mentality; I just think it's important to be strong. And don't get me started on that "I'm always right and I won't back down or adapt to anyone else's POV" stuff--though others apparently see me this way, I'm aware of all the adaptations I make for others. I'm aware of the times I HAVE wimped out of things, lol. So a lot of it just feels like I'm giving someone a misleading impression of myself if I type that way.

    That, and my most messed up things are 4ish/5ish in nature. I feel like those are my "real" issues.

    So, yeah, it was just hard for me to accept and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Tell you the truth, not really. But I did have an instance in my own life where I went slightly panicky and loopy and wound up begging for meds in the doctors office convinced I was going insane.
    Heh that sounds slightly similar in a way but the only time I went for meds I thought I was physically sick, I truly felt like dying. I figured out pretty fast that this wasn't the case though, after talking to the doctor. I realised what was going on and thus I gained mental control to get rid of the issue. Ehh long story :p

    Hope you don't have any problem anymore. Just curious, did they give you meds or did you just get dismissed as having some generic anxiety etc?


    Ocean Moonshine is good. The problem is when you skim everything--that's what I did at first, I just read the "good parts" and consequently, I was lost on many of the finer points.
    Yeah, I was just trying to figure out my type and never did lol. There were a few types that I just decided not to even read much including 8 because taking one look at it made me think "nah not me". That black and white stereotype of a male 8 you know

    I was trying to relate to 3 and 7 instead, thought I was some mix of the two without really understanding the core concepts of image and head types etc.


    The books you've listed there are OK I guess. I haven't read the second two, but I understand Richard Rohr is a bit loopy. Wisdom is the one I started with, but my own type wasn't clear from it; it discusses personality types rather than each type's psychological underpinnings.

    It's helped me to read the works of Helen Palmer, Naranjo, Maitri, Tom Condon, and Riso and Hudson's other works as well (Personality Types goes into health levels and what to expect from types at each level). Naranjo and Maitri in particular are prone to discussing the actual psychology of the types rather than descriptors of personality.
    I'm rather tired of personality descriptions actually, so Naranjo/Maitri seems interesting.


    My own functions, I am convinced, make me atypical, and I've heard this from other ENTP 8s. I consider a lot of options and am prone to changing my mind and adapting to others--according to many, this makes me a core 6 and a 3-fixer (I'm so not).

    So, I'm aware that there's more than one process that goes on and I try to remember that when I type others.
    I see.


    I saw that you seemed "Perceivery", mainly. MANY of the 8s involved in enneagram stuff are ENTPs, so it just seemed natural. Upon a more careful reading, you seem more Se.

    Still, that's just a personal observation. I'm always getting told I sound like an Fi-user online, and I know I'm not--so, do your own investigation here.
    Don't worry, as I said I always do my own independent thinking I do relate to Se over Ne by a lot.

    Btw online I have been seen as ESFP and ESTP as well but I don't see the Fi much... then maybe I don't even understand what Fi is actually.



    Honestly, I'm not sure. I do know one ESTP 7w8 who's like, Um...SENSOR BIAS. I have no future orientation!! There is sort of an ENxP bias in most 7 descriptions, which may skew things. But 7s do anticipate the next fun thing to do (hence the future orientation; common to head types) even if they're not futurists per se.
    I only have that direct next-moment readiness as mentioned, no other anticipation. Oh also, I'm going to do something that I know I'm going to enjoy, I will focus on that feeling oh "wow this is going to be so enjoyable" for about one second before diving in. Well if that can pass as anticipation heh.. Also when I get up in the morning, I have for a second this optimistic feeling of "oh a new day!!". Nothing specific beyond that though.


    Yes, the truth is more important; most people aren't persistent enough to actually lay out a huge case for this, though.
    Very true and my argumentative style just makes it even less likely to happen.. I do sometimes think that I should tone myself down more but it's so dependent on mood and I can't suppress these moods. Reactive triad really describes me well too :p (Another point against 7 core)


    In a lot of ways, actually. What you mention is surely one of them.
    What other ways were you thinking of?


    Oh God...it took me like 15 years.
    Wow well I lucked out then.. :p I posted one enneagram type thread before a while ago knowing nothing really about enneagram, pretty much complete beginner (well I did shift through those books but that was about all) and I got typed as 8w7 right away. I just didn't want to accept it - was surprised as well - so I kept going back to the idea of 7 etc. I still do, actually :p It helped that some people did think on that forum that maybe I was a 7.

    I mean, I do see myself in the issues of 8 most strongly, but I see some 7 issues as well that are just as strong maybe, but I'll get back to that later in this post.


    Part of the problem was only reading the good parts of Wisdom and Personality Types and then relying on the internet for more information (I didn't know there was other stuff out there).

    I saw myself (and still do) as being closest to 4w5 or 5w4. That's where all the crappy parts of my personality really are. Yet neither one seemed quite right. They say if you can't figure out your type, you're likely a 6 or 9, and since I am no 9, I typed as 6 for over a year when I got into online commenting.

    The only way I got away with being typed as 6 is because I was ignorant, and I just wound up pissing everyone off by bitching about 6 descriptions all the time. After reading Ocean Moonshine, I typed as 7, then realized I'm basically too negative to be a core 7. Finally I gave up and just ruled myself 4w5.

    Then I bought a bunch of books and realized I don't identify with 4 as much as I thought I did. It's still my heart-fix, though. Painfully obviously.

    So...yeah...I've typed as most things at some point or another.
    What made you choose 8 core over 4 core after all? If you still see yourself closer to 4, what was the deciding factor?

    Now about Ocean moonshine, that's where I felt like I identified with 7 issues too, not just 8. Most descriptions I don't identify with 7 *this much*, that one's almost scary (same for the 8's description on the same site). Do you think that site is biased in some way or something? (Of course I don't identify with every little statement in the description but some of it did get me. The same for 8, though.)


    Well to be honest, what you're saying here isn't necessarily social-instinct related. It's not necessarily about "groups" and stuff. Especially as an 8, I'd expect you not to be able to go along with the group. I'd expect you not to feel like you "need" anyone, etc.
    That's right, about this sort of self-sufficiency.


    According to my current understanding, social seems to be more about interconnections--many socials (or social seconds) are interested in diplomacy, world news, international affairs, other cultures, social animals, or something else that emphasizes the interconnectedness of lives.

    I was an outcast in high school myself (actually pretty much my entire life) and was sort of oblivious to everyone's stupid social hierarchy. In my graduating class of 100 people, I couldn't even tell you who the popular kids were, for instance. Didn't have social skills (I had to rebuild them in college, and even then, I largely failed). I was withdrawn and honestly somewhat depressed.

    Yet I've come to think of myself as having a strong social instinct simply because I will sacrifice for the greater good, I consider myself to be a "global citizen", and I am aware of the fact that all people are beholden to each other. My mom is social-last, and she really does have this sort of "naivete" about this stuff--she doesn't care. So yeah. It can be hard to test for (I still sometimes question it, but my sp skills seem to suck more than my awareness of others).
    Thank you, that makes sense. Well I do like doing projects for "society". Create stuff for people that they can then be happy with, useful stuff etc etc. I also see what ways society works. Hierarchy, etc. I don't remember if I mentioned it but even in middle school I did see who was popular, leading the others etc. I never follow those people though ;p

    I was also into politics etc for a while but no longer as intensely and it was only on a theoretical level, I wasn't ever politically active or anything...

    Are you sx/so or so/sx?

    What kind of naivete does your mother have about all this? What things is she completely unaware about?

    You see this instinct thing is now just getting confusing lol. I do think I have some Sp and Sx concerns so So should be last but if not then I don't know which one to put last. Maybe still So-last, all the above stuff I can "tune out of" easily. It's not constantly on.


    No idea. I think Riso and Hudson recommend building upon your inherent strengths, and the "growing" happens naturally. I personally can't make myself be "nicey nice" unless I'm mocking someone else, so clearly that's not the way to do it.
    I can be pretty kind and nice pretty naturally... as long as my mood and circumstances allow ;p So that's why I don't see how further growing would be possible :/ Not unless I solve the deep seated issues that cause me to behave this way, right? :p


    Sevens use "charm" as their first line of defense. They're not always charming, of course, but it's their sort of way of getting off the hook. I'd imagine an 8w7 or 6w7 would be able to utilize the same strategies, though it might be quicker to crash.
    What kind of defense is charm used for by a 7? That was rather unclear to me.


    Ocean Moonshine's good. I did type as 7 based on that, though.
    Well, see! maybe it's biased :p


    Mainly, I'd recommend Naranjo in the link I provided prior, as well as reading the authors I've mentioned cover to cover. You sort of have to build a composite and ask yourself what's really going on at a base level.
    OK. Would you change anything substantial in ocean moonshine's description about gluttony and lust?


    Naranjo writes about the unhealthy, neurotic stuff each type does. I don't think you see that behavior until MUCH lower in the levels--if you're average-to-healthy you won't manifest this overtly. It may result in inconsideration, but any semi-normal person (regardless of type) isn't going to just hurt others for fun.

    Yeah, there are probably ways this happens subconsciously..."I'm going to enjoy this ice cream cone even if you have to wait an extra 15 minutes for me to finish" kind of thinking, trying to "beat the system", or being involved in exploitative business practices, for instance. But you shouldn't be a total asshole at normal stages, no. (This, incidentally, is one of those "douchebag" stereotypes I had about 8s.)
    Alright that makes sense :p I just would never associate these things with hurting others for fun. No, it's more like I just don't think of others in the process at all. Is that the objectification thing? I think.


    Yes, that. Maybe an inclination toward needing to physically discharge anger. Many 8s are athletic and/or have obscene amounts of stamina. Dismissing overly intellectual stuff as lame and impractical. Stuff like that.
    Yes, I have that inclination strongly, about anger.

    But otherwise I'm actually inclined both intellectually and physically. I was brought up in an intellectual family, everyone's got university degrees and some of my relatives are actually professors and whatnot. :o Add to that my high IQ scores and I guess all that explains me.

    Haha, "obscene amounts of stamina", that describes me well too. And I'm really into sports so much that I think I might want to base a career on that or something related to that.

    But I have to emphasize the intellectual side again, I don't dismiss intellectual stuff as lame. I think it's cool, not trivial stuff at all. Intellectual challenges can be just as hard and interesting as physical ones. Tbh physical ones aren't even that hard because if you have the will for it, it naturally brings the persistence to go on, but with intellectual challenges you have to have more of a certain sort of patience as well to meet them - this is the way I personally feel about it. Don't get me wrong, this actually makes it more interesting in a sense, the intellectual challenges. Physical stuff is more interesting in another sense. I guess I'm just sooo totally 50/50 on this, lol.

    The only thing I would be dismissive of is if someone's only into the intellectual and physically they are a total wimp. But I dismiss it just as much if someone has no brain, just a body. I wouldn't try to decide which is worse.

    How about you? What side do you relate to more and why?


    If you're an 8, I wouldn't expect you to see yourself this way.
    Well yeah, 9 was out right on first sight. (Off the possible type list)


    People were always telling me I was "too idealistic" as a youth as well. I maintain they just didn't care.
    Haha I understand you. Even though I wasn't really told often that I was too idealistic. I don't think I showed it that much, still don't really.


    Well 4s recall feeling "abandoned" or at least unmirrored by their care-takers. It's 7s who sometimes feel that they were "deprived" and will do everything to keep that from happening again.
    Deprived of parental love or material goods? I need some clarification here...


    It is! If you type as ExTP, you may well find that your Fe was just undeveloped.
    Was? Is! Lol


    I think our instincts are inborn. However, puberty can bring massive changes that cause things to click into place that weren't obvious before. I think you saw my post about how I became totally warlike, which wasn't my way of thinking prior.
    I think I saw, yes. I was kind of opposite, I was "mellowing" over time.

    Lately I've actually been wishing that I hadn't changed at all. I didn't need to start to care about others that much. Socially or otherwise. Life used to be easier before. And I'm sort of going back in that direction, it seems. Maybe all this speaks about me getting more unhealthy or something :/

    Then at other times for some reason I want to be all nice and generous and open, like a 2 in enneagram terms I guess. But then I find that it just doesn't work that way lol. So it's really really a complex dynamic for me ugh...


    I'm not exactly sure, not being a core 3, but I get the sense their identity is tied to their outward measurement success...so they'll do everything to prevent a failure; or if they do fail, they'll try to reframe it, e.g., "Failure is just a step on the road to success". Their ego rests on being a success in some form, so there's an orientation towards the succeed/fail dichotomy. If you don't have a major issue with that, you're likely not a core 3.
    Well success is actually very important to me in the things where I want to achieve something. I'm sure I would have a big issue with it if I didn't manage to achieve these things. So that's why I was also into reading descriptions of type 3. I just never identified with the image focus. I can't say that my whole ego rests on this either, though it's important. So I ended up thinking I had a 3 fix. Now I don't know haha, I do weakly see myself in 2 and 4 too.

    Going more into this issue of success, personally defining success as achieving my goal of meeting a challenge; I read that it's important for 8's to get to their goal because they feel they're strong enough then. I think I relate to that. So could 3 fix be totally out of the picture, considering this? What do you think?


    If you're the "anti-social" manifestation, you basically hate everything and everyone, and may follow social affairs in some form without being able to disconnect from it. Even if you hate it.

    I think it's like a high school reject bitching and moaning about all the idiotic popular kids, claiming he doesn't want any part of it, yet clearly the individual is obsessing over the structures and hierarchy. You hate people and their "stuff", but you can't detach. You refuse to participate, but in doing so you are still pinned to that sector of life. (Note that you don't have to follow high school politics to be social first--this could revolve around the news, politics, international affairs, community projects, online communities, whatever.)
    I bitch about facebook I don't even use my real name on it, let alone visit the site often. But I think I have an easier time detaching than what you describe here.


    Everyone has an inner world! If yours is extremely important, I'd suggest the 4-fix. Sexual 7s can that sort of fantasy life, too, though.
    I guess I very much like some things about my inner world yeah. It would be nice to get to the point where I'm capable of expressing these things so other people might enjoy them too. I have an interest in arts because of this but this is pretty on-off... I have created some things before in several areas in arts but that side of me is not strong enough to be on that consistently for that long but I'm sure one day I'll get there.

    Not that my inner world is all about artsy fantasy stuff, it's about intellectual stuff as well, just as much, say half-half. Math, sciences. I am complex, hey!! :o

    As for which type it is... My possible 4 fix really rejoiced when I was once told "wow you must have a really special inner life". Heh, yeah.

    I do see some side of that inner life as possibly 7 sx, you are right, this is complex. Also all this about me listing so many sides and talents of mine, so 7-ish :/ :P

    What is the fantasy life like for 7 sx's? Is it in any way related to their real life? Because if so, that's not me. My imagination is very disconnected from my life, it's not about it at all. The other arts related stuff I was/am interested in isn't even about just having imagination in the head, it's more about creation, that is, expression of certain mental content.


    Well, like what I mentioned above, in addition to the type just being too "awesome" for me. I hate all the stuff about 8s being "leaders" and having all this self-confidence. All the loud, in-your-face, extrovert stuff that gets tossed around.
    Haha that's funny what you say about the type (8) being too awesome. I don't really find the types awesome so it's easy to imagine hey maybe I'm a 3 or I'm a 7... with 8 I had this problem you talk about though, being too "awesome". I don't like to imagine myself in any grandiose way, I prefer to be realistic, so yeah.. those stereotypes :o

    Then I understand you on the "being leader" stuff as well. I never got social enough to be in a traditional leader role so I just don't have an opinion about it for myself :o. I would probably have the capabilities though other than the inclination to be social enough... social in this sense of having strong social instinct.

    I do relate to having loads of self-confidence, I'm not really short on that and people can notice it easily most of the time, except when I'm sitting in the corner behaving in the withdrawn way (5-ish grrr). But otherwise they do notice.

    If I'm not behaving in the withdrawn way, I'm loud and terrible so I at least relate to that part :p Until I turned 13, I was like that all the time if interacting with people. Otherwise loner, yeah.



    I'm a withdrawn loner. I have no social skills and people always tell me I don't have enough "self-confidence" (which isn't my inner experience, btw, but damn that external identification thingy that extraverts do). I'm cognitively extraverted, but no one would guess this of me based on my anti-social behavior. I'm quiet, though I do have a volatile temper. You don't see the ugly side of me till you get close to me and have to deal with my mercurial moods.
    Yeah maybe that appearance about having self-confidence is not enneagram related but more function related (extraversion and function related). HEY, I so totally relate to your last sentence here! (bolded) I mean I do show my temper etc at other times too pretty easily to anyone, but it's really a lot worse in relationships :p ...I actually was afraid when entering some relationships that I would be hated after they get to see that side of mine. It didn't prevent me from being myself though :p


    Plus I hate that "survival of the fittest" stuff. HATE IT. Social darwinism sucks. They make it sound like 8s all tout this mentality; I just think it's important to be strong. And don't get me started on that "I'm always right and I won't back down or adapt to anyone else's POV" stuff--though others apparently see me this way, I'm aware of all the adaptations I make for others. I'm aware of the times I HAVE wimped out of things, lol. So a lot of it just feels like I'm giving someone a misleading impression of myself if I type that way.
    Meh I argued with someone typing as a 8 about this "survival of the fittest" approach. :p I understand the idea about it though, I relate, I just think there's more to life. I understand people evolved in a way that we have this society helping everyone who needs help etc. Less emphasis on "survival of the fittest" on the level of the individual. Overall it clearly gives us an advantage in survival... unless we get to a point where we kill ourselves lol.

    As for making adaptations for others by "wimping" out of stuff, how do you feel about those cases?

    I relate to the bolded again (your last sentence again). I mean I thought of it myself. But I kind of don't care, everyone can think whatever they want.


    That, and my most messed up things are 4ish/5ish in nature. I feel like those are my "real" issues.

    So, yeah, it was just hard for me to accept and all.
    I'm a bit confused, if your "real" issues are more 4-ish and 5-ish what made you type as 8? I'm not questioning your type, I just would like to understand.

    I myself decided to use the approach of picking the type for core that has the issues that I most strongly relate to. That's usually 8 but sometimes 7 gets me thinking still, e.g. that ocean moonshine site hmmm... :p

  10. #80
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Heh that sounds slightly similar in a way but the only time I went for meds I thought I was physically sick, I truly felt like dying. I figured out pretty fast that this wasn't the case though, after talking to the doctor. I realised what was going on and thus I gained mental control to get rid of the issue. Ehh long story :p

    Hope you don't have any problem anymore. Just curious, did they give you meds or did you just get dismissed as having some generic anxiety etc?
    Pretty much that. Yeah.

    Actually, I was working full time in a fast food restaurant and was pretty much chained to the table during the lunch rush. It was stressful (I had just graduated high school, where I was used to doing nothing, slowly) and made me feel "trapped" which set of an extreme sense of avoidance. And then I just got really nervous all the time and thought I was going batshit (I'm not normally nervous).

    No, I'm OK now. It was just an adjustment issue and there was no disorder.

    Yeah, I was just trying to figure out my type and never did lol. There were a few types that I just decided not to even read much including 8 because taking one look at it made me think "nah not me". That black and white stereotype of a male 8 you know
    Yeah. That.

    Btw online I have been seen as ESFP and ESTP as well but I don't see the Fi much... then maybe I don't even understand what Fi is actually.
    When I first read about the function, I ID'd with Ti/Fe right away. Everyone else tried to persuade me I was an Fi user because I write with "conviction" and believe in things like treating others equally. When I read about Fi online, I was like OMG, I'm Fi-dom. I do fit their little blurbs about "seeing humanity in everyone, including criminals".

    Then I realized we're looking at cognitive processes here, not descriptions, and certainly NOT philosophies. I can tell you that my Ti is great at finding underlying principles. I would guess Fi would be similar, except regarding other people and/or ethics. Which functions do you relate to, though?

    true and my argumentative style just makes it even less likely to happen.. I do sometimes think that I should tone myself down more but it's so dependent on mood and I can't suppress these moods. Reactive triad really describes me well too :p (Another point against 7 core)
    Go by the triads.

    What other ways were you thinking of?
    Well, there can just be this wall of "I'm not going to listen to you even if I nod and smile" and my roommate would simply stick her nose in the air and refuse to engage. She was a shit head.

    Wow well I lucked out then.. :p I posted one enneagram type thread before a while ago knowing nothing really about enneagram, pretty much complete beginner (well I did shift through those books but that was about all) and I got typed as 8w7 right away. I just didn't want to accept it - was surprised as well - so I kept going back to the idea of 7 etc. I still do, actually :p It helped that some people did think on that forum that maybe I was a 7.
    That's great...where was it?

    Every type me thread I've ever done, people have told me I'm a 6w7. No matter what I say. To me, that just sounds...weird.

    What made you choose 8 core over 4 core after all? If you still see yourself closer to 4, what was the deciding factor?
    Well, just doing the stuff in this survey. I'll mention more at the bottom.

    Now about Ocean moonshine, that's where I felt like I identified with 7 issues too, not just 8. Most descriptions I don't identify with 7 *this much*, that one's almost scary (same for the 8's description on the same site). Do you think that site is biased in some way or something? (Of course I don't identify with every little statement in the description but some of it did get me. The same for 8, though.)
    Yeah, it seems to me they describe an off-the-wall multitalented person who can't settle down in life...which I am. They leave out the optimism (I suck at optimism) and that whole "you're OK, I'm OK" thing (I live in a state of hatred towards everything, including myself). Can be permissive, though. LOL.

    Thank you, that makes sense. Well I do like doing projects for "society". Create stuff for people that they can then be happy with, useful stuff etc etc. I also see what ways society works. Hierarchy, etc. I don't remember if I mentioned it but even in middle school I did see who was popular, leading the others etc. I never follow those people though ;p

    I was also into politics etc for a while but no longer as intensely and it was only on a theoretical level, I wasn't ever politically active or anything...

    Are you sx/so or so/sx?
    Consider social in your stacking, then. The instincts are the hardest part to figure out, most of what you hear online is shady at best, and I'm still not sure I understand them.

    Riso and Hudson do the best job, so consider their words on the matter.

    I currently type as sx/soc, though I'm open to considering soc/sx since I can really ruminate about people when lost in social affairs. However, sexual-first issues seem to have caused me the most pain in my life, so I am inclined to keep that.

    What kind of naivete does your mother have about all this? What things is she completely unaware about?
    She doesn't get it that it matters when people ostracize you, for instance. She'll say things like, Just be who you are and everyone will accept you!! That's a lovely thought, but not how the world works. She also doesn't care much about what's happening in the world--no sense of community involvement. She likes staying in and reading fantasies and murder mysteries and only turns on the news for events like 9-11. She's a 9w1, which may influence it, but my step-father is 9w1 as well, and he's always getting upset about workplace politics and what's happening in the news. He's one of those anti-social socials--he hates everyone and just bitches and moans all the time.

    You see this instinct thing is now just getting confusing lol. I do think I have some Sp and Sx concerns so So should be last but if not then I don't know which one to put last. Maybe still So-last, all the above stuff I can "tune out of" easily. It's not constantly on.
    You could also look for your "blindspot"--ie, your crap instinct.

    I can be pretty kind and nice pretty naturally... as long as my mood and circumstances allow ;p So that's why I don't see how further growing would be possible :/ Not unless I solve the deep seated issues that cause me to behave this way, right? :p
    Well one of the criticisms of enneagram is that it makes us all out to have something wrong with us, when actually, most of us don't. If you're content with your current levels of mental health, I'd say there is no particular need to "grow".

    What kind of defense is charm used for by a 7? That was rather unclear to me.
    It means like talking your way out of trouble rather than strong arming your way through things.

    OK. Would you change anything substantial in ocean moonshine's description about gluttony and lust?
    I can't remember enough about it. I already mentioned my criticism of 7; the 8 I don't remember enough. I thought it was great they mentioned 8s can be loners too, though. Not everyone mentions that.

    Alright that makes sense :p I just would never associate these things with hurting others for fun. No, it's more like I just don't think of others in the process at all. Is that the objectification thing? I think.
    Yeah, I guess others are just vaguely part of the background, or an abstraction. It doesn't reach full-on levels of dehumanization till you go unhealthy, though.

    Yes, I have that inclination strongly, about anger.

    But otherwise I'm actually inclined both intellectually and physically. I was brought up in an intellectual family, everyone's got university degrees and some of my relatives are actually professors and whatnot. :o Add to that my high IQ scores and I guess all that explains me.

    Haha, "obscene amounts of stamina", that describes me well too. And I'm really into sports so much that I think I might want to base a career on that or something related to that.

    But I have to emphasize the intellectual side again, I don't dismiss intellectual stuff as lame. I think it's cool, not trivial stuff at all. Intellectual challenges can be just as hard and interesting as physical ones. Tbh physical ones aren't even that hard because if you have the will for it, it naturally brings the persistence to go on, but with intellectual challenges you have to have more of a certain sort of patience as well to meet them - this is the way I personally feel about it. Don't get me wrong, this actually makes it more interesting in a sense, the intellectual challenges. Physical stuff is more interesting in another sense. I guess I'm just sooo totally 50/50 on this, lol.

    The only thing I would be dismissive of is if someone's only into the intellectual and physically they are a total wimp. But I dismiss it just as much if someone has no brain, just a body. I wouldn't try to decide which is worse.
    Well sure, you can still enjoy learning and stuff. Most human beings do. I consider myself to be a "smart" kid, too--same family situation, spent years taking overloaded classes in college cause I'm so interested in EVERYTHING.

    How about you? What side do you relate to more and why?
    Well, I do consider myself to be anti-intellectual, but more in the sense of impractical people who don't "get" life and spend all day splitting hairs. I like learning and exploring, but when I was in college and studying the Middle East, I was subject to years of reading about Egyptian cinema in the 1930s. Then I went to the middle East, and I was just like, WHYYYY??? WHY did I spend the last 3 years studying this???

    I saw that the Arab Gulf was vital to transnational affairs in the region and beyond, and that the whole region was filled with well-educated, well-connected, BORED young people. And I went to the university and told them my insights. For this, my ideas were rejected and I was laughed out of grad school--because I didn't split hairs but instead saw the reality. Then, two years later, the Arab Spring happened. I was like LOL.

    So, that's the kind of intellectualism that bothers me--folks who don't see reality and instead sit in an ivory tower; these people are called on to advise policy makers. Just LOL.


    Deprived of parental love or material goods? I need some clarification here...
    TBH, I don't know. I just know that the 2 are associated; 7s often have an issue with the mother not being "nurturing" enough somehow.


    Well success is actually very important to me in the things where I want to achieve something. I'm sure I would have a big issue with it if I didn't manage to achieve these things. So that's why I was also into reading descriptions of type 3. I just never identified with the image focus. I can't say that my whole ego rests on this either, though it's important. So I ended up thinking I had a 3 fix. Now I don't know haha, I do weakly see myself in 2 and 4 too.

    Going more into this issue of success, personally defining success as achieving my goal of meeting a challenge; I read that it's important for 8's to get to their goal because they feel they're strong enough then. I think I relate to that. So could 3 fix be totally out of the picture, considering this? What do you think?
    I think it could be in there, yeah. I don't know you well enough to comment beyond that. The surest thing you can do is to examine motivations--are you motivated by 3ish stuff? I'd expect there to be a 2-connection if you're an 8, but the 4 is harder to explain.

    I guess I very much like some things about my inner world yeah. It would be nice to get to the point where I'm capable of expressing these things so other people might enjoy them too. I have an interest in arts because of this but this is pretty on-off... I have created some things before in several areas in arts but that side of me is not strong enough to be on that consistently for that long but I'm sure one day I'll get there.

    Not that my inner world is all about artsy fantasy stuff, it's about intellectual stuff as well, just as much, say half-half. Math, sciences. I am complex, hey!! :o

    As for which type it is... My possible 4 fix really rejoiced when I was once told "wow you must have a really special inner life". Heh, yeah.

    I do see some side of that inner life as possibly 7 sx, you are right, this is complex. Also all this about me listing so many sides and talents of mine, so 7-ish :/ :P

    What is the fantasy life like for 7 sx's? Is it in any way related to their real life? Because if so, that's not me. My imagination is very disconnected from my life, it's not about it at all. The other arts related stuff I was/am interested in isn't even about just having imagination in the head, it's more about creation, that is, expression of certain mental content.
    Yeah, again, you may indeed be 4-fixed--examine motivations.

    As to the sx7s inner life, Naranjo lists them as being "extraterrestrial" in their conceptualizations. Far out stuff man. I don't quite know what it means, but I'm thinking kinda hippie. They are prone to heightened imagination and can "juice" their own emotions similar to 4s. As I experience this side of my personality, there's a lot of epic, Hollywood-style stuff that goes on.

    Don't forget 9s regarding the inner-world as well. You should draw influences from our 9 as well.


    Haha that's funny what you say about the type (8) being too awesome. I don't really find the types awesome so it's easy to imagine hey maybe I'm a 3 or I'm a 7... with 8 I had this problem you talk about though, being too "awesome". I don't like to imagine myself in any grandiose way, I prefer to be realistic, so yeah.. those stereotypes :o

    Then I understand you on the "being leader" stuff as well. I never got social enough to be in a traditional leader role so I just don't have an opinion about it for myself :o. I would probably have the capabilities though other than the inclination to be social enough... social in this sense of having strong social instinct.

    I do relate to having loads of self-confidence, I'm not really short on that and people can notice it easily most of the time, except when I'm sitting in the corner behaving in the withdrawn way (5-ish grrr). But otherwise they do notice.

    If I'm not behaving in the withdrawn way, I'm loud and terrible so I at least relate to that part :p Until I turned 13, I was like that all the time if interacting with people. Otherwise loner, yeah.
    Yeah, a number of 8s have had similar gripes about descriptions from what I understand. It's like no one finds a representative population, so they base their studies on dictators and Enron execs and try to report this stuff as though it's normal and common.

    Yeah maybe that appearance about having self-confidence is not enneagram related but more function related (extraversion and function related). HEY, I so totally relate to your last sentence here! (bolded) I mean I do show my temper etc at other times too pretty easily to anyone, but it's really a lot worse in relationships :p ...I actually was afraid when entering some relationships that I would be hated after they get to see that side of mine. It didn't prevent me from being myself though :p
    I'm 6-fixed, worry about "alienating people", and spent the majority of my youth in my 5-connection, I think, so I'm pretty reserved about anger till you get to know me. But yeah. I expect people will hate me once they see what a tempermental headcase I am. I'm always surprised how forgiving and sympathetic others can actually be.

    Meh I argued with someone typing as a 8 about this "survival of the fittest" approach. :p I understand the idea about it though, I relate, I just think there's more to life. I understand people evolved in a way that we have this society helping everyone who needs help etc. Less emphasis on "survival of the fittest" on the level of the individual. Overall it clearly gives us an advantage in survival... unless we get to a point where we kill ourselves lol.
    Well that's my position. We're social animals, and it's in our nature to band together. We won't get very far if we're overly individualistic.

    As for making adaptations for others by "wimping" out of stuff, how do you feel about those cases?
    Embarrassed, really, about wimping on stuff--though I was unaware of it till the enneagram pointed it out to me. I had all this time to build a case for why I'm precisely NOT an 8, so now it's just really hard to accept. (It was one of the 3 types I initially identified with).

    The adaptations for others are largely OK, since you get along to go along--let's not be foolish. I'm just not real hardcore consistent, nor do I see myself as uncompromising.

    I relate to the bolded again (your last sentence again). I mean I thought of it myself. But I kind of don't care, everyone can think whatever they want.
    My problem is, I feel like I'm deceiving others.


    I'm a bit confused, if your "real" issues are more 4-ish and 5-ish what made you type as 8? I'm not questioning your type, I just would like to understand.

    I myself decided to use the approach of picking the type for core that has the issues that I most strongly relate to. That's usually 8 but sometimes 7 gets me thinking still, e.g. that ocean moonshine site hmmm... :p
    Oh ocean moonshine...

    As to the 4 and 5 thing, I should prolly reiterate I spent literally years trying to decide which was most "me". It might have helped if I'd had other source material besides Wisdom of the Enneagram, since I frankly don't see 4 at all in Helen Palmer's work, and 5 barely.

    But yeah. I'm too aware of all the ways I've taken things too personally, been self-conscious, been too identified with my own suffering, and whatnot--pretty much every stereotype of 4ness. I figured out I was too dramatic to be a core 5, plus I am a reactive type. So that gave me 4. However, I've never understood identifying oneself by one's emotions. I sort of gave up on that and just assumed I was somehow a 4w5 when I came here.

    Basically, I had no reason to question being a 4 with an 8-fix till I read the finer points of Helen Palmer and Naranjo and didn't identify...basically I just assumed they didn't know what they were talking about and continued with my typing.

    THEN I read Maitri. She's supposedly the top of the field so when I didn't relate to anything about her 4, I basically realized I wasn't one. Throughout her book, I did basically the same exercises listed in the questionnaire I published, and looking at it, it all suggested nothing other than 8. Looking over past journals, I saw that there was also a strong 7 influence of trying to avoid boring things and pretending I'm OK when I'm not (even if I don't identify with this as written, that's clearly what's been motivating me) as well as this 9ish sense of "I don't matter, I'm nothing, no one cares". Given that I'm a reactive type, I had to go with the 8 as the core--the parts are all in place.

    I just think it's funny, that's all. I'd have said I had a million more pressing problems than excessive behavior, lust, and other 8-monikers. I know the ways I can do this stuff, but other parts of me just feel worse.

    So yeah. That's that story.

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