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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    8's strengths are being mentally strong, being able to bear the weight of conflict and conflagration and even be the initiator of said conflict.
    When healthy, 8's are extremely strong leaders that integrate partially to 2, giving them the caring nature of the 2 and the strong decision making and will of the 8.
    When unhealthy, the 8's "strengths" are his or her brutality against those that would seek to harm him or her. It's part of this whole fear coming true thing that I have linked below : (scroll down)http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/le...p#.UtYBtvRDuvQ
    Oh thanks for that answer too Ok, that makes sense fine.

    Just not the leader thing because that sounds like leader in a social sense... *shrug* Guess I would have to be more integrated into 2 for that eh?

    That link seems to have only type 1 for free :/ :p But thanks anyway

  2. #62
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I didn't mean it *had to* be useless, only if it's not clear what is what in the theory. I don't think things are as bad with enneagram as with socionics on certain forums ;p

    As for the infinite possibilities you mention as manifestation of the core drive, that's fine, the core drive itself is what should be distinct though... I guess maybe we are on the same page here.

    Success to me, I already said it before: getting what I wanted or meeting a challenge. Doesn't involve external expectations, only intrinsic motivation.

    Alright, so nobody sees 7w8 so far? :p I'm not totally decided on that myself yet. I recall I saw myself in some 7w8 descriptions, though some 8w7 too. I will dig those up later, going to bed now. Thanks and seeya for now
    7w8's are more anxious than 8w7, much more thrill seeking, and much more extroverted. 7 is considered the most extroverted type because they are running from their internal world that might be clouded with painful memories and experiences. They constantly need stimulation or else they will begin entering their inner world and begin feeling depressed. (nvm, they actually disintegrate to 1s and become harshly critical and perfectionist, but nonetheless they run from their inner world).

    You seem much more 8w7 than 7w8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    7w8's are more anxious than 8w7, much more thrill seeking, and much more extroverted. 7 is considered the most extroverted type because they are running from their internal world that might be clouded with painful memories and experiences. They constantly need stimulation or else they will begin entering their inner world and begin feeling depressed. (That's why they disintegrate to 5, one of the most introverted types).

    You seem much more 8w7 than 7w8.
    You meant they integrate into 5, right? :p Anyway, that's a great sum up, thanks. I think for me most deciding so far is having focus naturally. If it's really really that unnatural for 7w8 even with strong 8 wing to easily have focus and dislike being scattered then yeah...

  4. #64
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    Thanks @Sanjuro for the questionnaire Thanks especially if you have time to analyse this too



    Disclaimer: How are you doing? Are there any major life events/illnesses/other issues that might be influencing you? Did you write this in one sitting, or have you pondered these issues deeply? Give us a sense of "where you're at" right now.

    I'm going to write this in one go, as usual. No illnesses etc but my life isn't going that well right now. Ah well about illnesses, about a year ago, I managed to get out of something on my own that could've become a mental illness if I had let it happen.



    0. What's making you unsure of your type? What research have you already done to determine type?

    I'm pretty sure I'm an Id type. I see 8 but I see 7 as well, or maybe I just don't understand type 7 well enough :p

    3 is also an Id type but I don't see myself in being motivated by external validation/image.

    I would also like to decide tritype.

    My instinctual variant stacking is pretty much So-last, IMO. Sx/Sp I think.



    1. Establish a "baseline mood"--when you're at home with nothing to do, where are you at mentally and emotionally? What do you notice in yourself? (Note, this is not a mood you inhabit "frequently", but your psychological baseline).

    (Earlier question was asking about what it is like staring at the wall at home, I'm copypasting that answer, most of it is definitely relevant)

    Staring at the walls, if that's to be taken literally, then I have an empty mind, no emotions either. It's actually a pretty good state for me, just staring at the wall thinking of nothing. My way of meditation really.

    This is my default state too, calm state, no emotions, no nothing, not thinking of much, perhaps some fleeting thoughts here and there. Like some fleeting clouds on the sky. A bit of feeling of readiness.


    (I want to mention that I'm pretty much like this as well when I'm focused on doing something, just probably much less of any fleeting thoughts. Thinking if required for the task is well integrated with this "doing", that is, the thinking doesn't feel like a separate mental state. It's best described as thinking on the move, reacting to whatever.

    Well of course if the task is something heavily intellectual, then I do actual mental thinking more continuously, still with a strong focus and emotionally even more detached. But that now is no longer my baseline stuff so nevermind)



    2. Describe yourself--

    Not something I am good at


    a. What's it like to be you?

    O_o

    Well alright... I can describe what it feels like. It's good :p. Feeling confident. Being one with the world everywhere. On the move or waiting to react. Feeling alive wanting and getting/doing shit Also when I get angry about whatever :p

    Interacting with whoever comes my way just for the sake of interaction, I feel it's all fun

    Then sometimes contemplative, fascinated by watching my own mental world.


    b. What have others said about you?

    Just the main stuff

    Smart
    Adept at life/getting stuff
    Got energy
    Strong willed, willful, strong mentally
    Enthusiastic
    Autonomous = basically going by my own goddamn head, not controlled by others
    Got a bad temper :p & too argumentative / aggressive
    Impatient
    Stubborn as fuck
    Analysing shit too deep
    Needy / Demanding
    Self-centered / entitled
    Irresponsible (to a degree).. quite reliable sometimes though
    Helpful
    Nice / kind <--> Antisocial
    Not open ("wall" blocking others out)


    c. What do you think of yourself?
    Eh I guess the above list works. :p I do agree with the items in it. And whatever else I said about what it feels like to be me



    3. What are the issues you've dealt with in life? List some recurrent themes, and tell us a little about each one.

    Anger issues -> didn't manage to deal with it, I'm like this, unlikeable or not
    Issues with relationships -> Not really close to anyone. That doesn't match my er, ideal, so once I wanted to deal with it, I guess didn't work out so I dunno how to *shrug*
    Social issues -> part of that's outside my control nevermind that, the other part is just me not having enough focus on groups, being also antisocial somewhat (I used to be really antisocial as a kid, that changed a lot when I got interested in social groups), I guess either people accept me this way or not
    Procrastination, crazy life style -> Trying to be better at this :p Self-indulgent life style without restrictions on its own is quite okay to me :p, I do have to catch up on some responsibilities however. I'm managing thank-you



    4. You're not good at everything--

    Oooh really...


    a. What personality traits and/or ways of being are impossible for you to adopt?

    Well... Being permanently nice and adapting to everyone, in the process giving up my own will, my own needs and thoughts and suppressing emotions (well I mean anger really). Also, being controlled by whatever rules/authority/people. Oh and giving up, just in general, not me.


    b. What are qualities you'd like to have, but can't seem to develop?

    Oh... a bit more diplomacy even when I don't feel like it? It could be useful really.

    Well I can do it if I need to get something that way, but even that's hard and only doable temporarily

    More social ability without getting confrontational?

    And whatever issues I mentioned above



    5. Why have you left friends and other relationships in the past and/or why have they left you?

    First, I didn't leave friends.

    Well, I did talk to some guy regularly (online, offline) and one day he told me he was trying to manipulate me emotionally or something, I blocked him right away (on messenger) and I really don't do that by default to anyone. Few years later we did talk a bit again, but meh, I guess life moved on a lot for both of us :p. So how relevant this is, ok, he was sort of a friend, I could say...um, random guy friend. Not the same as a female friend really :p (I'm female if that wasn't yet obvious)

    There was a female friend who I didn't specifically leave, I just didn't bother to keep in contact for a while after I felt she got demanding in a way that it was almost like taking advantage of me. No I don't hate or resent her for that, there was a lot more to her really, just the relationship seemed to "degrade" into that over time (long story). Perhaps it can be renewed.


    Friends (either guys or girls :P ) didn't leave me until last year, when paradoxically after I decided I should pay more attention to friendships, I had two break soon and one of them was my most important one. I didn't get any real reasoning for first one, just BS. Second one, she said she lost trust in me and she was actually quite good at planting blame on me but clearly if anyone had to be blamed then it was her fault just as much as mine just fine. Btw nope, I didn't do anything that deserved this. Quite the opposite actually - I just didn't manage to sort out something for her that I promised I would try and she got upset over that. Completely unrealistic way of thinking she had there.


    Well the other part of this question... I did leave romantic relationships, actually all of the more serious relationships I was in, I was the one to break it up. The "why", eh, I wasn't feeling the love, the intimacy. I simply didn't get the devotion I wanted. Though when I decided to split up, my partners usually wanted to cling on to me. Pain in the...



    6. Which types do you identify with most?

    7, 8


    a. How do you relate to these types?

    7: Enthusiasm, Some optimism, freedom, strong willed to get what I need :p (in the 7 way or not?), quick thinker, like variety, I do like some planning (and executing the plans), distractions from issues, addictive personality
    Oh and I don't want a dull existence :p

    8: Anger :p, Autonomy, realism, strong willed, competitive, like intensity, I do try to deal with those issues sooner or later
    I don't want to be submissive or give up on anything.

    I think both have: Self-indulgence (addictive personality too?), pragmatism and yeah both are Id types...

    Oh and I can't decide between gluttony and lust. Oh, it would be useful if I could. Need to understand them more. :/


    I'll also copypaste this comparison between 7 and 8:

    "Seek intensity vs Seek variety" - I seek both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?

    "Want control vs Want freedom" - I want both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?

    "Physical energy vs Nervous energy" - If physical energy is when I do physical things, anything involving doing/moving, and if nervous energy means being able to solve mental tasks and being inspired by mental activity then I again can say I'm both, I can have high energy levels for both. Though I would say physical energy was first, I developed my mind more later in life if that makes sense... though I did have mental activities as a kid too, just less easily inspired or how to put that.

    "Hard-working vs Playful" - Both! Fun can come from the hard working too.

    "Focused vs Scattered" - The first word pair where it's easier to choose. I'll say first, I hate being scattered, I don't feel good that way. I like focus. With certain specific tasks (simple physical stuff), I can sometimes try multitasking as a fun challenge and that's still a focused way of doing the job. If I'm browsing online, I hate having too many open tabs so I don't. Also, I don't have too many interests being active in the same time period because I focus into one of them deep and the rest just isn't interesting. However, I will change to a new interest later, after a long-ish time period, after having done a lot with previous interest. This switching happens unconsciously, I notice after the fact.

    "Conscientious vs Irresponsible" - I am both. I take some things in life really seriously so I'm conscientious with those and I enjoy self-discipline in working for goals, OTOH I can have a problem with self-discipline in living life in general and I'm not really strongly morally principled so I'm irresponsible too..

    "Realist vs Optimist" - Both :p I don't believe BS rose coloured glasses stuff, I'm simply incapable of doing that and disinterested in viewing things in that light and I notice the negative in situations easily, glass was always half empty for me :/ compelling me to refill the glass, of course :P. But I'm optimistic in terms of not thinking of failure, so when I go refill the glass, I don't stop to think "what if I can't" and I'm trusting in future in general and I like to encourage and inspire others.

    "Gain power vs Have fun" - Gain what kind of power exactly, that's vague to me. Power to me in general primarily means having resources for control. But I'll use a concrete example, in sport I want to be more powerful&strong, my concept of having fun in a sport really only comes from that or directly from competition. I don't play sports just to "have fun" in a light way. So, is that a good example? Otoh, I don't work hard to gain social powers as I'm not really part of society that much :/ so I'm just having fun with my life in that sense. Still, I have gained some material powers and am proud of that.

    "Authoritarian vs Egalitarian" - I like the egalitarian view in theory. I'm not sure about how I go about it in practice. The only thing that comes to mind now, I can be pretty authoritarian in telling my opinion and get surprised if others take it the bad way.

    "Vengeful vs Tolerant" - I can be both. Obviously not at the same time :p I can take a lot of shit if I decide to, from friends; of course I don't let anyone take advantage of me - friend or not - but I am otherwise really tolerant with their issues. As for being explicitly vengeful, it's usually immediate small things on the spot, I have never sat brooding and concocting a great plan to take real crazy revenge on someone. I guess I didn't need to either. But this is why I don't think of myself as that vengeful. But then it might be because of my black and white thinking about these concepts so I don't notice the "small things" I mentioned (only after much conscious attention).



    b. How do you NOT relate to them?

    7: not scattered, not heavily future focused, I don't do idealization of situation at all...

    8: not sure what this "physical presence" thing means... is this meant socially? Then no.

    OK, for the rest see as above.



    7. Which types are least like you?

    1, 6, 9


    a. Why specifically do you not relate to these types?

    1: Omg that rigid morality, no. ;p Also, I absolutely don't identify with the idea of suppressing my own impulses.
    6: Don't need support to be confident/autonomous. Don't have or need paranoia :p
    9: Not conflict avoidant. I don't merge with others easily.


    b. What points (if any) DO you relate to?

    What do you mean by "points"? If you meant other types:

    2: I like to help (However, I really don't put other people's needs in front of mine.)
    3: I'm seen as successful (I however don't care about externally originated motivation.)
    4: I like special/unique stuff (I'm however not adept at building an identity by my emotionality.)
    5: I like concepts inside my mind (I don't however relate to feeling secure by withdrawing into my own mind.)


    If you meant the types I don't relate to:

    1: Sometimes I'm a bit idealistic and I like some perfection in work though not to such an extreme degree... just as long as it doesn't get in the way too much
    6: I can be questioning about theories
    9: I can be lazy and asleep a lot lol... I can tune out easily when nothing's going on, I think that's 9'ish too? Maybe not? Sometimes I am seen as mediator when people start a fight with each other.



    8. They claim enneagram type is a hidden love need. What are your attitudes toward finding love?

    What do you mean about this hidden love need? :P (If anyone got links/resources on that enneagram wise, I'm interested though)

    As for my conscious attitude, I think it's really easiest to just not deal with this topic in my life. If I were to deal with it, well I know I require a kind of devotion and intensity, but otherwise in general, I relate to the inability to connect, as described on some enneagram sites. I'm not saying that's good at all, really doesn't match an "ideal" of mine.



    9. What is the message your superego tells you?

    Consider a time when you felt poorly about yourself--this means your ego (i.e. YOU) is receiving negative feedback from your superego. Write a conversation between the two of them--what is your superego telling you about how to be? (Note: this obviously is very personal and may be better done privately. Report your findings).


    (Somewhat edited version of my reply from previous questionnaire)

    I don't have a constantly active super-ego telling me "should". Quite honestly my superego is pretty weak hah.

    Sometimes yes, I think to myself: ok, I should get up and do this task, should do that task before deadline (...I brush this aside very easily).


    Less often I get the following:

    Should be more polite to people, talk to people more in a social way, say "hi" to everyone and don't be argumentative.

    Should open up and talk about issues to friends. Should be loving (...can't do it, block).

    Should detach from wanting things so much (no!).

    Should take responsibility for what I've done (bad things). Well ok I don't really get this message actually :p Only once when I was in a really crazy state, not myself.



    10. Determine your ego ideal--the way you strive to be and want others to perceive you. (Note, you may be consciously aware of failing at this, and you will be hard on yourself if you do. If someone else tells you you're NOT this way, it may make you feel hurt, violated, or angry.)

    I... don't really have an ideal in this sense?

    Well at least no reason to be hard on myself lol

    Except for what I said about procrastination, I can be a bit hard on myself for that.

    It would also be nice to be more likeable but I guess I can't do anything about that. I do get a bit affected if I'm told things related to this, though. "Violated" isn't a bad word for that.

    I've also been a bit hard on myself about friendship issues. When I got blamed (as mentioned earlier), I was hard on myself for not trying harder to provide support for her. (But then I realised that I'd actually been unaware of her actual needs because she didn't let me know and I am not a mind reader.)


    Which of the following ideals resonate with you the most, and why? Rank them.

    I think this makes most sense but I can't say it's a real ideal because I don't have an image of it and I don't strive for it that terribly much:
    - to be a lovable person & to be loving... "benevolent" sounds good too but is maybe asking for too much (I mean, in the sense of consciously trying to be that, noo)

    I like the idea of this too but quite honestly I'm really not doing much about it except when taking care of my looks (= trying to be unique then):
    - to be sensitive, original, unique, and creative

    I don't have a problem with these so why call them ideals:
    - to be knowledgeable
    - to be accomplished and successful
    - to be powerful, strong, unassailable.

    I don't really care about this at all:
    - to be devoted and loyal to a cause
    - to strive to become/behave like a good person

    This only with certain prerequisites:
    - to be devoted and loyal to a person (not a cause)

    I don't understand what this one means:
    - to be "okay", having it together ????



    11. Determine your "felt sense" of life. To do this it may help to look at how you perceive events. Another way to do this is to look back at your childhood and think of all the things your parents did to you. How did you/do you feel about these events?

    (Somewhat edited version of my reply from previous questionnaire)

    Deprived or Abandoned (not sure which): when I was a small kid (3-10 years old), by my mother for periods (she was away traveling). I felt it almost physically. My father not showing interest or not in a way I could notice. I felt disappointed about that and then later I felt antagonism. After I got older, no feeling of being deprived/abandoned.

    Wronged: by my father, beating up us kids. By some stupid teachers/classes (as a whole class yes, no problem if it was just individual kids), in school, as small kid and as teenager too.

    I was also upset about: not placing so good in one contest (alright I didn't prepare enough ;p). uhh whatever else, can't remember more now.

    But really I was just upset about being a kid in general, too small, no control. Sometimes also about being an "outcast" in school. (Someone else instead was seen as "leader".) Also upset by my father. Also by the fact that I was the youngest kid in the family.

    I'm not upset about most of these things in retrospect. This all was such a long time ago. My father and I got okay later, much later. Still upsetting memory of some teachers/classes (see "wronged" section above) but I don't think of the past often.

    I think that it was a result of all that, that I had the feeling I was left to deal with life on my own. I never thought of talking about problems with family or anything really or even getting truly involved in family life. Let alone school life etc. I think this is a good summary of "felt sense" in my childhood. I don't think that changed much since then. I kind of see this as both 7 and 8 though...


    Here are some common "felt senses" of life:

    Well mine's as above, I guess.

    Also, in social area I sometimes get a mix of these:
    - I have a sense of being unimportant, insignificant, and undeserving of attention
    - I feel isolated, cut off, and ultimately separate
    - I've had a sense of being rejectible

    As a kid mostly I had, as mentioned:
    - People have wronged and messed with me



    12. Core fears. You may have been aware of these fears even as a very small child, before anyone did anything to influence it. You'd be mortified to be in this position or have others perceive you this way.

    Discuss which fears have played the greatest role in your life:


    I relate to these:

    - Rejection, being needy, and not being loved --> well okay I've experienced this and wasn't totally mortified. Still don't want it.
    - Weak and not being on top of things --> I haven't experienced feeling this way much but trust me I wouldn't like to. I guess when I was feeling *really down* I was a bit afraid of this.
    - Failure --> Eh just try again. This is not in the sense of something not working out. It's mostly about how I wouldn't want to give up some daunting task, that's what I'd mean by failure.

    I relate a bit to these maybe:

    - Being abandoned, sadness, feeling lost --> I don't want to feel this way.
    - Entanglements and losing what I have --> I don't understand what "entanglements" means??? But I wouldn't want to lose what I have, in a material sense, etc.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    @valaki

    Looked it over briefly.

    I still think you're an 8w7. Prolly ENTP, prolly sx-first. sx/sp or sp/sx.

    I don't really see the 7w8 to be honest--you don't seem to be a Positive Outlook type, whereas you do have MANY Rejection Triad themes. That's based on a quick preliminary reading, and is prone to my own bias no doubt.

    I can go into more detail with this, but I'm running short of time right now. I'll come back within 24-48 hours, hopefully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    @valaki

    Looked it over briefly.

    I still think you're an 8w7. Prolly ENTP, prolly sx-first. sx/sp or sp/sx.

    I don't really see the 7w8 to be honest--you don't seem to be a Positive Outlook type, whereas you do have MANY Rejection Triad themes. That's based on a quick preliminary reading, and is prone to my own bias no doubt.

    I can go into more detail with this, but I'm running short of time right now. I'll come back within 24-48 hours, hopefully.
    Thanks and I'm looking forward to more details as well.

    Hmm the ENTP thing as well, I'm curious to hear about that too, yep

  7. #67
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Do you just mean it cheers you up as a distraction when you help people while you're in pain? As for rejecting own needs, I always thought of myself as pretty selfish in quite some things, but it's true that I can be very helpful too.
    Helping people makes a 2 feel capable and reinforces their own self image, but as long as the focus is on themselves and their image, they can never really be as good as they want. Feeling selfish is pretty normal for 2s, but it's false humility that feeds a 2's pride. It's like a pride in recognizing that they are selfish so it means that much more when they choose to help someone.

    Can you elaborate on how it's connected to pride for a 2?
    I'm less sure about 2w1, so I'll just talk about 2w3. 2s love a challenge. What sets 2w3 apart from other types is how personally invested they become in what they set out to accomplish. It has less to do with getting rewards and more to do with meeting expectations they have for themselves. 2w3s are the "best" at what they do and no one can take that away.

    And do you feel a lot of emotions about it, any sadness?
    Rejection has me feeling everything bad at once I guess, it can be overwhelming. I'm thinking my reaction to the rejection is worse for me than the actual rejection, but that's when I'm at my wits end already so not always this bad. The reaction itself is not so much related to 2 as the thing that causes the reaction. This is where the tritype theory tries to fill in the gaps. My gut fix is 9w1, and rejection has me reacting like a 9w1. I imagine that if you were a 2, you would react to rejection from your gut fix.

    Well when it's really bad rejection, I just don't feel *anything*. I somehow automatically detach from everything. When it's in the category that I feel like I can deal with more directly, I do feel anger and frustration and able to react directly.
    Detaching from everything seems more 9ish. I can relate to this a lot actually, it's like anger is empowering as long as you have a grip on it, but when it's too much to handle it's just.... gone, everything's gone. I always attributed it to my 9 fix.
    Level 7: Can be highly repressed, undeveloped, and ineffectual. Feel incapable of facing problems: become obstinate, dissociating self from all conflicts. Neglectful and dangerous to others.
    Level 8: Wanting to block out of awareness anything that could affect them, they dissociate so much that they eventually cannot function: numb, depersonalized.
    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/Ty...p#.UthW9vQ2YrU
    Well that's the thing, in most cases, I don't try to put on a guise of being concerned for others. In most cases, I don't do that sort of thing at all because it's more about what I want, my needs and so on. When I'm helping someone, it's usually in the form of giving advice, or encouraging them. Though with some friends yes, I have also been controlling trying to make them change some things in their life for their own good.
    Yes, the literature can often put a negative a spin on 2s. I think they do it to show that they aren't as good as they think they are, but it can be very frustrating too. When you say you are giving advice or encouraging people, or even controlling them to improve their lives, this is what is meant by the "guise of concern" 2s can have. It's not like it's all fake, only when the expectation of reward is present is the help considered "fake" though I'm struggling with this too, like exactly when does helping someone become fake? If helping someone do something that happens to benefit both of you, is that fake?


    I'm anything but self-sacrificing... though I'm willing to be very helpful with friends... to an extent. I don't want to be taken advantage of even if it's a friend.
    self sacrificing fits 2w1 more than it does 2w3.


    I don't desire either particularly much but if I have to choose, it's 3 over 2. Just please don't overdo the appreciation, that's a pain in the ass. I really don't need the self-consciousness that comes out of hearing a lot of praise.
    I relate to not wanting to hear too much appreciation, though I'm not sure how it relates to type.


    Well I guess that's pretty deciding, as I don't have a self-image of a self-sacrificing person and I don't care to, either. I'm rather comfortable openly acting on my own needs.
    I wonder, how comfortable are you talking about your own needs?

    I actually don't like to think of myself as a "good person". Well, "bad person" either, I just prefer not to get into anything moralistic. But definitely don't want to feel like "oooh I'm so good and loving" or "oh god, what a sinful person I am". :p

    It's actually true though that I don't recognize so called lovable qualities in myself.
    Morals are for 1s, they can have all the morals they want as far as I'm concerned. You might relate more to being "good" as in "capable" like you are really good at getting things done, you are a very capable person, thus you are lovable. The problem arises during moments when you don't feel capable, because it can chip away at your self image.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Helping people makes a 2 feel capable and reinforces their own self image, but as long as the focus is on themselves and their image, they can never really be as good as they want. Feeling selfish is pretty normal for 2s, but it's false humility that feeds a 2's pride. It's like a pride in recognizing that they are selfish so it means that much more when they choose to help someone.
    Well to be quite honest, I don't think of myself as humble.

    I do like helping people because it's a way of making some sort of connection or interaction, I guess. By connection I don't mean a personal connection, simply "interaction" is a better word really. I don't take pride in it, with most people I just do it when I feel like doing it. In a close relationship it's a bit different as I also try to pay attention because I think it should be part of the relationship so this one does sound more superego-ish. But with most people it doesn't feel like that.


    I'm less sure about 2w1, so I'll just talk about 2w3. 2s love a challenge. What sets 2w3 apart from other types is how personally invested they become in what they set out to accomplish. It has less to do with getting rewards and more to do with meeting expectations they have for themselves. 2w3s are the "best" at what they do and no one can take that away.
    Why is that a type 2 thing? What kind of expectations do they have for themselves in this regard? (EDIT: I think you talked about that below but do elaborate if you can.)


    Rejection has me feeling everything bad at once I guess, it can be overwhelming. I'm thinking my reaction to the rejection is worse for me than the actual rejection, but that's when I'm at my wits end already so not always this bad. The reaction itself is not so much related to 2 as the thing that causes the reaction. This is where the tritype theory tries to fill in the gaps. My gut fix is 9w1, and rejection has me reacting like a 9w1. I imagine that if you were a 2, you would react to rejection from your gut fix.
    I see.


    Detaching from everything seems more 9ish. I can relate to this a lot actually, it's like anger is empowering as long as you have a grip on it, but when it's too much to handle it's just.... gone, everything's gone. I always attributed it to my 9 fix.
    I thought emotional detachment was more 5ish for me...


    Yes, the literature can often put a negative a spin on 2s. I think they do it to show that they aren't as good as they think they are, but it can be very frustrating too. When you say you are giving advice or encouraging people, or even controlling them to improve their lives, this is what is meant by the "guise of concern" 2s can have. It's not like it's all fake, only when the expectation of reward is present is the help considered "fake" though I'm struggling with this too, like exactly when does helping someone become fake? If helping someone do something that happens to benefit both of you, is that fake?
    I always say that if someone helps me and then expects me to return the favour I'll just laugh in their face. :p Basically I find it ridiculous to help someone only if you get something in return.

    I meant that in general, as in relationships this is again different, I can do favours there that I don't feel like doing so much, however I won't care to bother if the other party doesn't have the same attitude. So there help does involve expectations.

    I thought of another thing here. I don't know if this is type related but maybe? Recently I got really upset by someone who didn't want to do something for me using the reasoning that he didn't like me enough. I told him that such decisions shouldn't depend on personal preferences. I mean, I'm ok if he doesn't have time or whatever, that's just fine but this wasn't fine at all. Oh and this person has some ideal of helping people, he told me before about that, well I told him it was a pretty much useless ideal if he's going about it like that in practice. :p


    I wonder, how comfortable are you talking about your own needs?
    In terms of material needs? Very comfortable.

    In a relationship I'm also comfortable telling the partner / close friend that I want them to pay attention etc.

    How about you as a type 2?


    Morals are for 1s, they can have all the morals they want as far as I'm concerned. You might relate more to being "good" as in "capable" like you are really good at getting things done, you are a very capable person, thus you are lovable. The problem arises during moments when you don't feel capable, because it can chip away at your self image.
    I don't relate to this - I care about getting things done because I want those things for myself. Nothing to do with being lovable. I don't usually have a problem feeling capable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well to be quite honest, I don't think of myself as humble.

    I do like helping people because it's a way of making some sort of connection or interaction, I guess. By connection I don't mean a personal connection, simply "interaction" is a better word really. I don't take pride in it, with most people I just do it when I feel like doing it. In a close relationship it's a bit different as I also try to pay attention because I think it should be part of the relationship so this one does sound more superego-ish. But with most people it doesn't feel like that.
    Can you give an example of each case and explain why you felt that way?


    I thought emotional detachment was more 5ish for me...
    The detachment of 5s is very different from the numbness of 9s.

    I always say that if someone helps me and then expects me to return the favour I'll just laugh in their face. :p Basically I find it ridiculous to help someone only if you get something in return.
    Thank you for this. Those self righteous bastards can go bugger themselves. I mean, I'm not like that right? right?????

    I meant that in general, as in relationships this is again different, I can do favours there that I don't feel like doing so much, however I won't care to bother if the other party doesn't have the same attitude. So there help does involve expectations.
    That's right, it seems silly to help someone do something that they don't want to do, I gain nothing from that. I'd rather save my efforts for more willing subjects

    I thought of another thing here. I don't know if this is type related but maybe? Recently I got really upset by someone who didn't want to do something for me using the reasoning that he didn't like me enough. I told him that such decisions shouldn't depend on personal preferences. I mean, I'm ok if he doesn't have time or whatever, that's just fine but this wasn't fine at all. Oh and this person has some ideal of helping people, he told me before about that, well I told him it was a pretty much useless ideal if he's going about it like that in practice. :p
    Right, it seems weird when people save their help only for people they deem worthy of it. Hey... wait a minute.....

    In terms of material needs? Very comfortable.

    In a relationship I'm also comfortable telling the partner / close friend that I want them to pay attention etc.
    Right, some needs are pretty tame, like asking for water at a restaurant. Other needs are more difficult to talk about, would you agree?

    How about you as a type 2?
    Very comfortable, I would just rather not.

    I don't relate to this - I care about getting things done because I want those things for myself. Nothing to do with being lovable. I don't usually have a problem feeling capable.
    Well ok, but you use the word "usually" and of course you'll need to elaborate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Can you give an example of each case and explain why you felt that way?
    The case with most people: if someone asks me for e.g. advice in a subject I know well, I'll usually feel like giving the advice because it's a good feeling to exercise my expertise. Or if I'm asked to do something to help someone which again involves some area in which I am confident, again it's a good feeling doing the activity. Or even if I don't have special expertise for something, it can still be enjoyable getting involved in an activity. All this is kind of a selfish motivation I guess :p
    The other side of this is the interaction thingie I mentioned. When I'm in the mood for it, it's just nice talking to people, interacting with them and this is one way to do it. I can't tell you what it depends on whether I feel in the mood or not.

    The case with relationships: for the "why", it's just the way I view close relationships in general, I want devotion and I will also take care of the partner.

    Does this answer your question? Do you need specific examples from life?


    The detachment of 5s is very different from the numbness of 9s.
    Yes but I never used the word "numb". So what made you think of 9 instead of 5?

    And how would you explain the difference between 5 and 9 with this?


    Thank you for this. Those self righteous bastards can go bugger themselves. I mean, I'm not like that right? right?????
    Lol right



    That's right, it seems silly to help someone do something that they don't want to do, I gain nothing from that. I'd rather save my efforts for more willing subjects
    Maybe you misunderstood what I said?

    I didn't mean forcing someone to do something for their own good. I don't really care for messing with other people's lives to this degree, I think they're independent enough to decide what they want. (When earlier I said "controlling" it was to do with things that the other person actually wanted, just didn't have the will to start doing etc.)

    I was just talking about how if the partner doesn't reciprocate my efforts for the relationship (including my doing things that I don't necessarily feel in the mood to do, unlike I explained above about the selfish motivation) then I will not bother to put in further effort for the relationship myself. And then it's no longer a good relationship, yeah... So my point was about such expectations.


    Right, it seems weird when people save their help only for people they deem worthy of it. Hey... wait a minute.....
    Wait why?


    Right, some needs are pretty tame, like asking for water at a restaurant. Other needs are more difficult to talk about, would you agree?
    No :p

    What needs are difficult for you to talk about?



    Very comfortable, I would just rather not.
    If you would rather not, that doesn't sound like you're comfortable with it...


    Well ok, but you use the word "usually" and of course you'll need to elaborate.
    Of course lol... heh that kind of wording ;p

    Sometimes if a task is entirely new and if it requires a skill that needs to be practiced and I haven't ever done it before, I won't feel very capable or adept first. It can be a learning curve then but then it's okay afterwards... it's just that I'm not a patient type so this can get annoying.

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