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  1. #51
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    The context in which I heard the expression before made it sound like it's some artificial way of seeing life and my strong reaction is to that. I'm not sure if I can explain this well lol

    Anyway, no, I don't fully get the idea of "winners and losers". What does it mean no in-between? You mention a standard. Is this some social expectation about winners and losers? Elaborate please?

    Do keep it in mind I'm the bull in the china shop with regard to social things So I'm pretty sure I'm not a core 3 type anyway but I'm curious what's meant by the above.




    I don't see why lust and passion would have to exclude each other.

    Note, passion and enthusiasm to me don't mean "I will work hard and true to earn this". Nope. That "be true to earn this" thing sounds like some super ego thing or some external expectation. Passion and enthusiasm - in my interpretation - are of intrinsic origin however. Passion means I'm really passionately into something. I've been seen inspiring others in the process so it can also be called enthusiasm in that sense. Again, others were worried that I was going to overdo it because of the passion. lol




    How do you define success? I really need to hear your definition of it.
    The whole winners and losers thing boils down to that there are successful people, and there are failures, and there aren't any in between. You either win and be successful or you lose and are an utter failure.

    Success is an entirely subjective concept, its your own interpretation of it.

    What is objective is each of the enneagram type's fears, and the 3's fear is being a failure: not succeeding, not changing the world, or being looked down upon as inferior. The opposite of the 3's fear of failure is success, so a 3 upmost desires success to counter-balance the all consuming fear of failure. This could be success intellectually such as curing cancer or designing an innovative theorem, or small town successes like taking on leadership roles.

    My definition of success is changing the world and contributing to human history.

    A 3 with an 8 and 5 fix is an entirely different beast than one might expect from a 3w2.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The whole winners and losers thing boils down to that there are successful people, and there are failures, and there aren't any in between. You either win and be successful or you lose and are an utter failure.
    Sounds extremely stressful and a real pain in the ass.

    What's a "failure" anyway?


    Success is an entirely subjective concept, its your own interpretation of it.
    But I don't get this whole idea of success = enneagram 3. I've read that 3 is about external validation, not simply about success. And I thought the point of ennegram was motivation behind behaviour. In this case, basic desire being validated and thus being good enough, basic fear being worthless.

    So why did you say that not all 3s need validation? That statement is in direct conflict with the statement of all 3's having the same basic fear and desire.


    What is objective is each of the enneagram type's fears, and the 3's fear is being a failure: not succeeding, not changing the world, or being looked down upon as inferior. The opposite of the 3's fear of failure is success, so a 3 upmost desires success to counter-balance the all consuming fear of failure. This could be success intellectually such as curing cancer or designing an innovative theorem, or small town successes like taking on leadership roles.
    So if an enneagram 5 (with say, 1 fix and 2 fix in tritype) wants to cure cancer are they suddenly a core type 3? Or can an enneagram 5 not wish to do such things? Only an enneagram 3 can desire these things?

    To go on with that example, I heard 5's fear was being looked down on as someone who's ignorant, so they also don't want to be seen as inferior.

    "Not good enough", "not being worthy" sounds a more 3 specific fear to me.


    My definition of success is changing the world and contributing to human history.
    This isn't 3-specific.


    A 3 with an 8 and 5 fix is an entirely different beast than one might expect from a 3w2.
    I've once heard the wise advice: don't bother with tritype to explain why you're so goddamn different from a speciifc core type in core ways. "You" means general you. I don't know how well you identify with 3's basic fear/desire etc. But I would be guessing that if you don't need external validation then maybe you're not a core 3 either. And that's also why I don't see myself as a core 3.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Sounds extremely stressful and a real pain in the ass.

    What's a "failure" anyway?




    But I don't get this whole idea of success = enneagram 3. I've read that 3 is about external validation, not simply about success. And I thought the point of ennegram was motivation behind behaviour. In this case, basic desire being validated and thus being good enough, basic fear being worthless.

    So why did you say that not all 3s need validation? That statement is in direct conflict with the statement of all 3's having the same basic fear and desire.




    So if an enneagram 5 (with say, 1 fix and 2 fix in tritype) wants to cure cancer are they suddenly a core type 3? Or can an enneagram 5 not wish to do such things? Only an enneagram 3 can desire these things?

    To go on with that example, I heard 5's fear was being looked down on as someone who's ignorant, so they also don't want to be seen as inferior.

    "Not good enough", "not being worthy" sounds a more 3 specific fear to me.




    This isn't 3-specific.




    I've once heard the wise advice: don't bother with tritype to explain why you're so goddamn different from a speciifc core type in core ways. "You" means general you. I don't know how well you identify with 3's basic fear/desire etc. But I would be guessing that if you don't need external validation then maybe you're not a core 3 either. And that's also why I don't see myself as a core 3.
    5's fear actually being incompetent, they don't care about being looked down upon, its internal assessment.

    If a 5 wants to cure cancer, I am willing to bet it is because he wants to solve the problem (for fun) rather than be known for solving the problem.

    Of course that isn't 3-specific, that's entirely subjective.

    I say some 3s as in healthy and unhealthy 3s. Those two levels of health don't need external validation because the healthy level reaches the point of self-acceptance and the unhealthy level reaches the level of extreme Narcissism.

    The point of the enneagram is to determine your motivation, and those motivations are entirely amorphous, they do not always mean exactly what is stated and are open to interpretation.
    1s are motivated to be perfect (again, open to all interpretation)
    2s are motivated to help others
    3s are motivated to be successful
    4s are motivated to be unique
    5s are motivated to be capable and competent
    6s are motivated to be loyal and obedient
    7s are motivated to be content with their life
    8s are motivated to be in control
    9s are motivated to keep the peace.

    You are looking at it as if there is one, singular definition for what makes a 3 and what doesn't, when the Enneagram isn't based off any sort of actual science, it is a personality theory with no actual ground in the real world yet and is completely open to interpretation.

    Yes, being not good enough and not being worthy are possible interpretations to the 3's fear.

    My more accurate 3 desire is to be remembered. To not pass into oblivion without having done something, to have my name be somewhere with an inscription of something I have done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    5's fear actually being incompetent, they don't care about being looked down upon, its internal assessment.
    Yes, incompetent, but some 5 put it as not being seen as ignorant. Apparently some 5's like it if their expertise is accepted by others. Maybe that's a 3 fix and not core trait of a 5, then? But I could see it as working without requiring validation. Simply the expertise and use of it seen as the end goal. So it doesn't have to involve 3 after all...? Just simply a competency type (both 3 and 5 are competent types)


    If a 5 wants to cure cancer, I am willing to bet it is because he wants to solve the problem (for fun) rather than be known for solving the problem.
    Alright, you didn't mention desire for fame, you simply mentioned success. See this is why I wanted a definition of success. Mine doesn't involve fame.


    I say some 3s as in healthy and unhealthy 3s. Those two levels of health don't need external validation because the healthy level reaches the point of self-acceptance and the unhealthy level reaches the level of extreme Narcissism.
    Well I guess not many people are that healthy. I certainly am not in my healthiest mode lately.


    The point of the enneagram is to determine your motivation, and those motivations are entirely amorphous, they do not always mean exactly what is stated and are open to interpretation.
    I noticed that ;p


    You are looking at it as if there is one, singular definition for what makes a 3 and what doesn't, when the Enneagram isn't based off any sort of actual science, it is a personality theory with no actual ground in the real world yet and is completely open to interpretation.
    Well a theory should still have clear definitions. It doesn't have to be actual empirical science but that doesn't exclude use of clear definitions. If it's truly "completely" open to interpretation then it's a rather useless theory. In my view :p


    Yes, being not good enough and not being worthy are possible interpretations to the 3's fear.
    What other interpretations are commonly accepted? These are the ones I've seen.

    Note I don't have an issue with someone developing their own enneagram theory but then I expect them to make clear definitions and use correct notation to avoid getting mixed up with other enneagram theories. Understand that otherwise the whole thing is useless. Well not entirely useless as long as each party in a discussion is willing to start with explaining their own definitions so there can be communication *at all*.


    My more accurate 3 desire is to be remembered. To not pass into oblivion without having done something, to have my name be somewhere with an inscription of something I have done.
    That to me sounds like a somewhat more indirect version of wanting external validation. Or I can even imagine it due to reasons other than core 3 motivation, it's rather generic, the desire to DO something.

    Btw it's not so hard to achieve that really. Get into reproduction, create a family => they will remember you; have them get a tomb done for you that has an inscription "Alea_iacta_est loved us so much" => you get your inscription of something. :p

    Okay, joke aside, how old are you? Just curious.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    @valaki

    Hey, I saw your questionnaire on the other page.

    Going by that, I'd wager 8w7 over 7w8--I see lots of cynicism and a sense that others out-casted you which seems more in line with 8 than 7. Dunno about the tritype.

    However--I'm going to put up a more refined version of the questionnaire (hopefully in within the next 24 hours), consisting of about 12 questions, that might make it easier if you're still wondering at that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    @valaki

    Hey, I saw your questionnaire on the other page.

    Going by that, I'd wager 8w7 over 7w8--I see lots of cynicism and a sense that others out-casted you which seems more in line with 8 than 7. Dunno about the tritype.

    However--I'm going to put up a more refined version of the questionnaire (hopefully in within the next 24 hours), consisting of about 12 questions, that might make it easier if you're still wondering at that point.
    Thanks for your opinion Yes I'll be definitely checking out the more refined version!

  7. #57
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yes, incompetent, but some 5 put it as not being seen as ignorant. Apparently some 5's like it if their expertise is accepted by others. Maybe that's a 3 fix and not core trait of a 5, then? But I could see it as working without requiring validation. Simply the expertise and use of it seen as the end goal. So it doesn't have to involve 3 after all...? Just simply a competency type (both 3 and 5 are competent types)




    Alright, you didn't mention desire for fame, you simply mentioned success. See this is why I wanted a definition of success. Mine doesn't involve fame.




    Well I guess not many people are that healthy. I certainly am not in my healthiest mode lately.




    I noticed that ;p




    Well a theory should still have clear definitions. It doesn't have to be actual empirical science but that doesn't exclude use of clear definitions. If it's truly "completely" open to interpretation then it's a rather useless theory. In my view :p




    What other interpretations are commonly accepted? These are the ones I've seen.

    Note I don't have an issue with someone developing their own enneagram theory but then I expect them to make clear definitions and use correct notation to avoid getting mixed up with other enneagram theories. Understand that otherwise the whole thing is useless. Well not entirely useless as long as each party in a discussion is willing to start with explaining their own definitions so there can be communication *at all*.




    That to me sounds like a somewhat more indirect version of wanting external validation. Or I can even imagine it due to reasons other than core 3 motivation, it's rather generic, the desire to DO something.

    Btw it's not so hard to achieve that really. Get into reproduction, create a family => they will remember you; have them get a tomb done for you that has an inscription "Alea_iacta_est loved us so much" => you get your inscription of something. :p

    Okay, joke aside, how old are you? Just curious.
    It's an indirect version of validation because I have a 5 fix that is at odds with the rest of social society, I'm an sx/sp with social as my last variant.

    It is indeed a useless theory, but it is fun nonetheless. Everyone has each of the types in them a little bit, it is merely which ones are more pronounced than others. Not everyone is completely black and white in these terms.

    There are nearly infinite possibilities of what could be interpretations of the type 3's success orientation, anything you can think of that has to do with the core drive for utter success is an interpretation, and the success itself reflects the ambition and the meaning of success to that particular person.

    Out of curiosity, what does success mean to you?

    I'm leaning backward on my original typing with you and the one that @Sanjuro thinks as well, which is 8w7 core.

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    interesting stuff at typewatch:

    the 3 ranges of sx/sp:

    sx/sp seducer (weak sp) - sx in full command produces an active recruiter of potential mates; but being sx/sp this remains in the yin mode of seducing. charismatic and overtly sexualized, arguably the most purely sx of all stacks and ranges. draws from so/sx shadow to liven up sx into an erotic playfulness and to keep sx far ahead of their relatively nominal sp. an emotional yearning to their mating ritual; an inherently unstable range that can lead to a pattern of serial heartbreak. often confused for sx/so.

    sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.

    sx/sp wanderer (strong sp) - the most clasically 'blocked' of the sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the body. paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the sx/sp's. pulls from sp/so to ensure the sx flood is contained by the sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. quietly charged but muted, and can seem self pres first.


    Alright I'll be sx/sp wanderer then


    Harmonic group:

    Eights can get into conflict by being too willful, defiant and confrontational. Eights tend to not censor their own impulses or emotional reactions. Eights want to feel the realness of conflict to give themselves a stronger sense of being. When conflicts occur, Eights are very quick to challenge and confront them. Eights keep their guard up all the time and want to minimize their dependence on (and trust in) others. They do not want others to see their vulnerable side.

    vs

    Sevens can get into conflicts by being impatient, irresponsible, and excessive. Sevens tend to focus on their positive expectations for satisfaction and fulfillment. Sevens are in fact fleeing from a threatening internal world and seeking security in the external world. If Sevens slow down, their minds may be drawn into the inner world of grief, sadness, and disappointment. Their quick minds avoid dealing with conflict and problems through distraction and constant activity. Sevens do not typically internalize their experiences; they remain somewhat unattached to people and things. In conflict, Sevens can quickly discard things and cancel commitments (ie., the needs of others) without feelings of regret. It is easier to move on to happier things than to stay with things that depress. Sevens tend to reject the needs of others in favour of fulfilling their own.

    Hmm, well, I relate to both. I have got into conflicts for both 8 and 7 reasons according to this description.

    Yes, hard to stay with depression. For 8 this would be done through denial and for 7 through distraction, right?

    One of the main things I don't relate to in the 7 desc is threatening internal world, I mean I don't see mine as threatening. It's full of nice logic images and other related things, nothing threatening about that :p

    And it's not true I'd avoid dealing with conflict. Even if I distract myself from some things I still have to get it out of my system sooner or later through confronting the issue and if that involves conflict with someone, so be it :/. I'm rather good at distraction too, though. But not forever ;p


    For completeness, here's some stuff on object relations.

    I'm more Rejection-based Group than Frustration-based Group there (not relating to Attachment-based Group), but I don't get the idea here: All three of these types offer some service or skill as a way of staving off rejection. Twos offer their caring and affection; Eights offer their strength; and Fives offer their knowledge and expertise.

    I understand what it says about Twos and Fives, what kind of strength is typically offered by Eights? Some real life examples would be helpful... anyone got any?

  9. #59
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    interesting stuff at typewatch:

    the 3 ranges of sx/sp:

    sx/sp seducer (weak sp) - sx in full command produces an active recruiter of potential mates; but being sx/sp this remains in the yin mode of seducing. charismatic and overtly sexualized, arguably the most purely sx of all stacks and ranges. draws from so/sx shadow to liven up sx into an erotic playfulness and to keep sx far ahead of their relatively nominal sp. an emotional yearning to their mating ritual; an inherently unstable range that can lead to a pattern of serial heartbreak. often confused for sx/so.

    sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.

    sx/sp wanderer (strong sp) - the most clasically 'blocked' of the sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the body. paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the sx/sp's. pulls from sp/so to ensure the sx flood is contained by the sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. quietly charged but muted, and can seem self pres first.


    Alright I'll be sx/sp wanderer then


    Harmonic group:

    Eights can get into conflict by being too willful, defiant and confrontational. Eights tend to not censor their own impulses or emotional reactions. Eights want to feel the realness of conflict to give themselves a stronger sense of being. When conflicts occur, Eights are very quick to challenge and confront them. Eights keep their guard up all the time and want to minimize their dependence on (and trust in) others. They do not want others to see their vulnerable side.

    vs

    Sevens can get into conflicts by being impatient, irresponsible, and excessive. Sevens tend to focus on their positive expectations for satisfaction and fulfillment. Sevens are in fact fleeing from a threatening internal world and seeking security in the external world. If Sevens slow down, their minds may be drawn into the inner world of grief, sadness, and disappointment. Their quick minds avoid dealing with conflict and problems through distraction and constant activity. Sevens do not typically internalize their experiences; they remain somewhat unattached to people and things. In conflict, Sevens can quickly discard things and cancel commitments (ie., the needs of others) without feelings of regret. It is easier to move on to happier things than to stay with things that depress. Sevens tend to reject the needs of others in favour of fulfilling their own.

    Hmm, well, I relate to both. I have got into conflicts for both 8 and 7 reasons according to this description.

    Yes, hard to stay with depression. For 8 this would be done through denial and for 7 through distraction, right?

    One of the main things I don't relate to in the 7 desc is threatening internal world, I mean I don't see mine as threatening. It's full of nice logic images and other related things, nothing threatening about that :p

    And it's not true I'd avoid dealing with conflict. Even if I distract myself from some things I still have to get it out of my system sooner or later through confronting the issue and if that involves conflict with someone, so be it :/. I'm rather good at distraction too, though. But not forever ;p


    For completeness, here's some stuff on object relations.

    I'm more Rejection-based Group than Frustration-based Group there (not relating to Attachment-based Group), but I don't get the idea here: All three of these types offer some service or skill as a way of staving off rejection. Twos offer their caring and affection; Eights offer their strength; and Fives offer their knowledge and expertise.

    I understand what it says about Twos and Fives, what kind of strength is typically offered by Eights? Some real life examples would be helpful... anyone got any?
    8's strengths are being mentally strong, being able to bear the weight of conflict and conflagration and even be the initiator of said conflict.
    When healthy, 8's are extremely strong leaders that integrate partially to 2, giving them the caring nature of the 2 and the strong decision making and will of the 8.
    When unhealthy, the 8's "strengths" are his or her brutality against those that would seek to harm him or her. It's part of this whole fear coming true thing that I have linked below : (scroll down, it's also only for type 1 because they want you to pay, but you'll get the jist of it)http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/le...p#.UtYBtvRDuvQ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    It's an indirect version of validation because I have a 5 fix that is at odds with the rest of social society, I'm an sx/sp with social as my last variant.

    It is indeed a useless theory, but it is fun nonetheless. Everyone has each of the types in them a little bit, it is merely which ones are more pronounced than others. Not everyone is completely black and white in these terms.

    There are nearly infinite possibilities of what could be interpretations of the type 3's success orientation, anything you can think of that has to do with the core drive for utter success is an interpretation, and the success itself reflects the ambition and the meaning of success to that particular person.

    Out of curiosity, what does success mean to you?

    I'm leaning backward on my original typing with you and the one that @Sanjuro thinks as well, which is 8w7 core.
    I didn't mean it *had to* be useless, only if it's not clear what is what in the theory. I don't think things are as bad with enneagram as with socionics on certain forums ;p

    As for the infinite possibilities you mention as manifestation of the core drive, that's fine, the core drive itself is what should be distinct though... I guess maybe we are on the same page here.

    Success to me, I already said it before: getting what I wanted or meeting a challenge. Doesn't involve external expectations, only intrinsic motivation.

    Alright, so nobody sees 7w8 so far? :p I'm not totally decided on that myself yet. I recall I saw myself in some 7w8 descriptions, though some 8w7 too. I will dig those up later, going to bed now. Thanks and seeya for now

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