Ok, that makes sense fine. But thanks anyway
I didn't mean it *had to* be useless, only if it's not clear what is what in the theory. I don't think things are as bad with enneagram as with socionics on certain forums ;p
As for the infinite possibilities you mention as manifestation of the core drive, that's fine, the core drive itself is what should be distinct though... I guess maybe we are on the same page here.
Success to me, I already said it before: getting what I wanted or meeting a challenge. Doesn't involve external expectations, only intrinsic motivation.
Alright, so nobody sees 7w8 so far?
Anyway, that's a great sum up, thanks. I think for me most deciding so far is having focus naturally. If it's really really that unnatural for 7w8 even with strong 8 wing to easily have focus and dislike being scattered then yeah... Thanks especially if you have time to analyse this too . Feeling confident. Being one with the world everywhere. On the move or waiting to react. Feeling alive wanting and getting/doing shit Also when I get angry about whatever & too argumentative / aggressive I do agree with the items in it. And whatever else I said about what it feels like to be me Self-indulgent life style without restrictions on its own is quite okay to me , I do have to catch up on some responsibilities however. I'm managing thank-you. So how relevant this is, ok, he was sort of a friend, I could say...um, random guy friend. Not the same as a female friend really (I'm female if that wasn't yet obvious) ) didn't leave me until last year, when paradoxically after I decided I should pay more attention to friendships, I had two break soon and one of them was my most important one. I didn't get any real reasoning for first one, just BS. Second one, she said she lost trust in me and she was actually quite good at planting blame on me but clearly if anyone had to be blamed then it was her fault just as much as mine just fine. Btw nope, I didn't do anything that deserved this. Quite the opposite actually - I just didn't manage to sort out something for her that I promised I would try and she got upset over that. Completely unrealistic way of thinking she had there. (in the 7 way or not?), quick thinker, like variety, I do like some planning (and executing the plans), distractions from issues, addictive personality, Autonomy, realism, strong willed, competitive, like intensity, I do try to deal with those issues sooner or later I don't believe BS rose coloured glasses stuff, I'm simply incapable of doing that and disinterested in viewing things in that light and I notice the negative in situations easily, glass was always half empty for me :/ compelling me to refill the glass, of course . But I'm optimistic in terms of not thinking of failure, so when I go refill the glass, I don't stop to think "what if I can't" and I'm trusting in future in general and I like to encourage and inspire others. I can take a lot of shit if I decide to, from friends; of course I don't let anyone take advantage of me - friend or not - but I am otherwise really tolerant with their issues. As for being explicitly vengeful, it's usually immediate small things on the spot, I have never sat brooding and concocting a great plan to take real crazy revenge on someone. I guess I didn't need to either. But this is why I don't think of myself as that vengeful. But then it might be because of my black and white thinking about these concepts so I don't notice the "small things" I mentioned (only after much conscious attention). (If anyone got links/resources on that enneagram wise, I'm interested though) Only once when I was in a really crazy state, not myself.
Helping people makes a 2 feel capable and reinforces their own self image, but as long as the focus is on themselves and their image, they can never really be as good as they want. Feeling selfish is pretty normal for 2s, but it's false humility that feeds a 2's pride. It's like a pride in recognizing that they are selfish so it means that much more when they choose to help someone.
I'm less sure about 2w1, so I'll just talk about 2w3. 2s love a challenge. What sets 2w3 apart from other types is how personally invested they become in what they set out to accomplish. It has less to do with getting rewards and more to do with meeting expectations they have for themselves. 2w3s are the "best" at what they do and no one can take that away.
Rejection has me feeling everything bad at once I guess, it can be overwhelming. I'm thinking my reaction to the rejection is worse for me than the actual rejection, but that's when I'm at my wits end already so not always this bad. The reaction itself is not so much related to 2 as the thing that causes the reaction. This is where the tritype theory tries to fill in the gaps. My gut fix is 9w1, and rejection has me reacting like a 9w1. I imagine that if you were a 2, you would react to rejection from your gut fix.
Detaching from everything seems more 9ish. I can relate to this a lot actually, it's like anger is empowering as long as you have a grip on it, but when it's too much to handle it's just.... gone, everything's gone. I always attributed it to my 9 fix.
Yes, the literature can often put a negative a spin on 2s. I think they do it to show that they aren't as good as they think they are, but it can be very frustrating too. When you say you are giving advice or encouraging people, or even controlling them to improve their lives, this is what is meant by the "guise of concern" 2s can have. It's not like it's all fake, only when the expectation of reward is present is the help considered "fake" though I'm struggling with this too, like exactly when does helping someone become fake? If helping someone do something that happens to benefit both of you, is that fake?
self sacrificing fits 2w1 more than it does 2w3.
I relate to not wanting to hear too much appreciation, though I'm not sure how it relates to type.I don't desire either particularly much but if I have to choose, it's 3 over 2. Just please don't overdo the appreciation, that's a pain in the ass.
I wonder, how comfortable are you talking about your own needs?
Morals are for 1s, they can have all the morals they want as far as I'm concerned. You might relate more to being "good" as in "capable" like you are really good at getting things done, you are a very capable person, thus you are lovable. The problem arises during moments when you don't feel capable, because it can chip away at your self image.I actually don't like to think of myself as a "good person". Well, "bad person" either, I just prefer not to get into anything moralistic. But definitely don't want to feel like "oooh I'm so good and loving" or "oh god, what a sinful person I am".
It's actually true though that I don't recognize so called lovable qualities in myself.
Basically I find it ridiculous to help someone only if you get something in return.
Can you give an example of each case and explain why you felt that way?
The detachment of 5s is very different from the numbness of 9s.
Thank you for this. Those self righteous bastards can go bugger themselves. I mean, I'm not like that right? right?????I always say that if someone helps me and then expects me to return the favour I'll just laugh in their face.
That's right, it seems silly to help someone do something that they don't want to do, I gain nothing from that. I'd rather save my efforts for more willing subjects
Right, it seems weird when people save their help only for people they deem worthy of it. Hey... wait a minute.....I thought of another thing here. I don't know if this is type related but maybe? Recently I got really upset by someone who didn't want to do something for me using the reasoning that he didn't like me enough. I told him that such decisions shouldn't depend on personal preferences. I mean, I'm ok if he doesn't have time or whatever, that's just fine but this wasn't fine at all. Oh and this person has some ideal of helping people, he told me before about that, well I told him it was a pretty much useless ideal if he's going about it like that in practice.
Right, some needs are pretty tame, like asking for water at a restaurant. Other needs are more difficult to talk about, would you agree?
Very comfortable, I would just rather not.
Well ok, but you use the word "usually" and of course you'll need to elaborate.
That's right, it seems silly to help someone do something that they don't want to do, I gain nothing from that. I'd rather save my efforts for more willing subjects
[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION] I think I misunderstood. I saw a lot of 2 in you, but you have none of the image concerns. You aren't an image type, I think 8 works for you.
While I'm here I should probably apologize to [MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] for doubting his 8ness as well
Duly noted.
Out of curiousity, which sources have you consulted? I didn't really understand the types till I read a variety of authors--internet's next to useless to acquire a better understanding.I'm pretty sure I'm an Id type. I see 8 but I see 7 as well, or maybe I just don't understand type 7 well enough
3 is also an Id type but I don't see myself in being motivated by external validation/image.
This particular questionnaire's prolly better for core type, but we can discuss that too.
I got that sense the first time around.
I re-read that, and it sounds like you're not, for instance, a 6 or 4. My only other thought would be Se--they've got that "on your toes" state of mental readiness.
Again, that does sound sort of Se more than any particular Etype. Maybe 7.
Well alright... I can describe what it feels like. It's good
Interacting with whoever comes my way just for the sake of interaction, I feel it's all fun
Then sometimes contemplative, fascinated by watching my own mental world.
Well I can see why you're between 7 and 8 from this. The "not open" thing speaks more to 8, though. 8s do that thing where they make up their mind and all opposing evidence is minimized. I associate the "wall" with the gut triad--I've seen my 9w1 parents do this too. I had a 1w2 roommate with whom it was like speaking to a brick wall.Just the main stuff
Smart
Adept at life/getting stuff
Got energy
Strong willed, willful, strong mentally
Enthusiastic
Autonomous = basically going by my own goddamn head, not controlled by others
Got a bad temper
Impatient
Stubborn as fuck
Analysing shit too deep
Needy / Demanding
Self-centered / entitled
Irresponsible (to a degree).. quite reliable sometimes though
Helpful
Nice / kind <--> Antisocial
Not open ("wall" blocking others out)
Eh I guess the above list works.
This speaks more to 8 than 7 (mind you, my issues don't sound like my core type, myself).Anger issues -> didn't manage to deal with it, I'm like this, unlikeable or not
Issues with relationships -> Not really close to anyone. That doesn't match my er, ideal, so once I wanted to deal with it, I guess didn't work out so I dunno how to *shrug*
Social issues -> part of that's outside my control nevermind that, the other part is just me not having enough focus on groups, being also antisocial somewhat (I used to be really antisocial as a kid, that changed a lot when I got interested in social groups), I guess either people accept me this way or not
Procrastination, crazy life style -> Trying to be better at this
Sounds like you need to grow to 2.
You're probably not a 3.
I'm seeing a trend towards feeling that others are taking advantage or manipulating you in some way, which is far more of an 8 perception than a 7 perception. You've also got an eye toward realism and I notice you've kept friends and they've been the first ones to move on. You've emphasized devotion, even if you did get sick of others' clinging. I see that as being 8ish as well. The 7s resist others' clinging, but wouldn't be as likely to see devotion as a core requirement (not impossible, of course, esp for a sx-first of any type, but you know).First, I didn't leave friends.
Well, I did talk to some guy regularly (online, offline) and one day he told me he was trying to manipulate me emotionally or something, I blocked him right away (on messenger) and I really don't do that by default to anyone. Few years later we did talk a bit again, but meh, I guess life moved on a lot for both of us
There was a female friend who I didn't specifically leave, I just didn't bother to keep in contact for a while after I felt she got demanding in a way that it was almost like taking advantage of me. No I don't hate or resent her for that, there was a lot more to her really, just the relationship seemed to "degrade" into that over time (long story). Perhaps it can be renewed.
Friends (either guys or girls
Well the other part of this question... I did leave romantic relationships, actually all of the more serious relationships I was in, I was the one to break it up. The "why", eh, I wasn't feeling the love, the intimacy. I simply didn't get the devotion I wanted. Though when I decided to split up, my partners usually wanted to cling on to me. Pain in the...
Yeah, the best thing you can do is read more about it in this case.7: Enthusiasm, Some optimism, freedom, strong willed to get what I need
Oh and I don't want a dull existence
8: Anger
I don't want to be submissive or give up on anything.
I think both have: Self-indulgence (addictive personality too?), pragmatism and yeah both are Id types...
Oh and I can't decide between gluttony and lust. Oh, it would be useful if I could. Need to understand them more. :/
Um yep. Still on the 8 side here. I think you're a Perceiver 8 with a strong 7-wing and probably a 7-fix.I'll also copypaste this comparison between 7 and 8:
"Seek intensity vs Seek variety" - I seek both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?
"Want control vs Want freedom" - I want both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?
"Physical energy vs Nervous energy" - If physical energy is when I do physical things, anything involving doing/moving, and if nervous energy means being able to solve mental tasks and being inspired by mental activity then I again can say I'm both, I can have high energy levels for both. Though I would say physical energy was first, I developed my mind more later in life if that makes sense... though I did have mental activities as a kid too, just less easily inspired or how to put that.
"Hard-working vs Playful" - Both! Fun can come from the hard working too.
"Focused vs Scattered" - The first word pair where it's easier to choose. I'll say first, I hate being scattered, I don't feel good that way. I like focus. With certain specific tasks (simple physical stuff), I can sometimes try multitasking as a fun challenge and that's still a focused way of doing the job. If I'm browsing online, I hate having too many open tabs so I don't. Also, I don't have too many interests being active in the same time period because I focus into one of them deep and the rest just isn't interesting. However, I will change to a new interest later, after a long-ish time period, after having done a lot with previous interest. This switching happens unconsciously, I notice after the fact.
"Conscientious vs Irresponsible" - I am both. I take some things in life really seriously so I'm conscientious with those and I enjoy self-discipline in working for goals, OTOH I can have a problem with self-discipline in living life in general and I'm not really strongly morally principled so I'm irresponsible too..
"Realist vs Optimist" - Both
"Gain power vs Have fun" - Gain what kind of power exactly, that's vague to me. Power to me in general primarily means having resources for control. But I'll use a concrete example, in sport I want to be more powerful&strong, my concept of having fun in a sport really only comes from that or directly from competition. I don't play sports just to "have fun" in a light way. So, is that a good example? Otoh, I don't work hard to gain social powers as I'm not really part of society that much :/ so I'm just having fun with my life in that sense. Still, I have gained some material powers and am proud of that.
"Authoritarian vs Egalitarian" - I like the egalitarian view in theory. I'm not sure about how I go about it in practice. The only thing that comes to mind now, I can be pretty authoritarian in telling my opinion and get surprised if others take it the bad way.
"Vengeful vs Tolerant" - I can be both. Obviously not at the same time
8s are more present-focused. The "physical presence" revolves more around being "physically inclined" in my own observations, not necessarily that everyone notices your presence right away (and even if they do, it's generally something the 8 is oblivious to).
Actually "points" meant "parts of the types you don't identify with". But, this is OK too.
Well here 9 is the one that actually sounds closest to being psychologically related to you. You're perfectionism/idealism could be simply related to type 7. Could also be age-related--I'm getting the sense you're still quite young.
Yeah, it's the "inability to connect" that makes me think of you as a rejection type.What do you mean about this hidden love need?
As for my conscious attitude, I think it's really easiest to just not deal with this topic in my life. If I were to deal with it, well I know I require a kind of devotion and intensity, but otherwise in general, I relate to the inability to connect, as described on some enneagram sites. I'm not saying that's good at all, really doesn't match an "ideal" of mine.
Still sounds like you need to grow to 2!(Somewhat edited version of my reply from previous questionnaire)
I don't have a constantly active super-ego telling me "should". Quite honestly my superego is pretty weak hah.
Sometimes yes, I think to myself: ok, I should get up and do this task, should do that task before deadline (...I brush this aside very easily).
Less often I get the following:
Should be more polite to people, talk to people more in a social way, say "hi" to everyone and don't be argumentative.
Should open up and talk about issues to friends. Should be loving (...can't do it, block).
Should detach from wanting things so much (no!).
Should take responsibility for what I've done (bad things). Well ok I don't really get this message actually
Being "okay" is the 7 one. It means like not being seen with "problems" or people thinking you can't cope. Or that you don't know wtf you're talking about.
Here's one of the major reasons I first thought 8--you're aware of being a social outcast, and you're aware of the injustices you suffered at the hands of those who had more power. You're also very present-focused in ways that I don't exactly associate with 7s.
That's 9, 5, and 2.
That's 8, again.
2 and 8.
This was supposed to be for 3--your response, again, suggests 8 to me. You fear giving up your will over failing per se.
It means like owing people or having your time and energy at their disposal, not yours. 4 and 5 incidentally.
Out of curiousity, which sources have you consulted? I didn't really understand the types till I read a variety of authors--internet's next to useless to acquire a better understanding.I'm pretty sure I'm an Id type. I see 8 but I see 7 as well, or maybe I just don't understand type 7 well enough
3 is also an Id type but I don't see myself in being motivated by external validation/image.
This particular questionnaire's prolly better for core type, but we can discuss that too.
I got that sense the first time around.
I re-read that, and it sounds like you're not, for instance, a 6 or 4. My only other thought would be Se--they've got that "on your toes" state of mental readiness.
Again, that does sound sort of Se more than any particular Etype. Maybe 7.
Well alright... I can describe what it feels like. It's good
Interacting with whoever comes my way just for the sake of interaction, I feel it's all fun
Then sometimes contemplative, fascinated by watching my own mental world.
Well I can see why you're between 7 and 8 from this. The "not open" thing speaks more to 8, though. 8s do that thing where they make up their mind and all opposing evidence is minimized. I associate the "wall" with the gut triad--I've seen my 9w1 parents do this too. I had a 1w2 roommate with whom it was like speaking to a brick wall.Just the main stuff
Smart
Adept at life/getting stuff
Got energy
Strong willed, willful, strong mentally
Enthusiastic
Autonomous = basically going by my own goddamn head, not controlled by others
Got a bad temper
Impatient
Stubborn as fuck
Analysing shit too deep
Needy / Demanding
Self-centered / entitled
Irresponsible (to a degree).. quite reliable sometimes though
Helpful
Nice / kind <--> Antisocial
Not open ("wall" blocking others out)
Eh I guess the above list works.
This speaks more to 8 than 7 (mind you, my issues don't sound like my core type, myself).Anger issues -> didn't manage to deal with it, I'm like this, unlikeable or not
Issues with relationships -> Not really close to anyone. That doesn't match my er, ideal, so once I wanted to deal with it, I guess didn't work out so I dunno how to *shrug*
Social issues -> part of that's outside my control nevermind that, the other part is just me not having enough focus on groups, being also antisocial somewhat (I used to be really antisocial as a kid, that changed a lot when I got interested in social groups), I guess either people accept me this way or not
Procrastination, crazy life style -> Trying to be better at this
Sounds like you need to grow to 2.
You're probably not a 3.
I'm seeing a trend towards feeling that others are taking advantage or manipulating you in some way, which is far more of an 8 perception than a 7 perception. You've also got an eye toward realism and I notice you've kept friends and they've been the first ones to move on. You've emphasized devotion, even if you did get sick of others' clinging. I see that as being 8ish as well. The 7s resist others' clinging, but wouldn't be as likely to see devotion as a core requirement (not impossible, of course, esp for a sx-first of any type, but you know).First, I didn't leave friends.
Well, I did talk to some guy regularly (online, offline) and one day he told me he was trying to manipulate me emotionally or something, I blocked him right away (on messenger) and I really don't do that by default to anyone. Few years later we did talk a bit again, but meh, I guess life moved on a lot for both of us
There was a female friend who I didn't specifically leave, I just didn't bother to keep in contact for a while after I felt she got demanding in a way that it was almost like taking advantage of me. No I don't hate or resent her for that, there was a lot more to her really, just the relationship seemed to "degrade" into that over time (long story). Perhaps it can be renewed.
Friends (either guys or girls
Well the other part of this question... I did leave romantic relationships, actually all of the more serious relationships I was in, I was the one to break it up. The "why", eh, I wasn't feeling the love, the intimacy. I simply didn't get the devotion I wanted. Though when I decided to split up, my partners usually wanted to cling on to me. Pain in the...
Yeah, the best thing you can do is read more about it in this case.7: Enthusiasm, Some optimism, freedom, strong willed to get what I need
Oh and I don't want a dull existence
8: Anger
I don't want to be submissive or give up on anything.
I think both have: Self-indulgence (addictive personality too?), pragmatism and yeah both are Id types...
Oh and I can't decide between gluttony and lust. Oh, it would be useful if I could. Need to understand them more. :/
Um yep. Still on the 8 side here. I think you're a Perceiver 8 with a strong 7-wing and probably a 7-fix.I'll also copypaste this comparison between 7 and 8:
"Seek intensity vs Seek variety" - I seek both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?
"Want control vs Want freedom" - I want both. I haven't thought about the exact priority, can anyone ask me specific questions to help me determine?
"Physical energy vs Nervous energy" - If physical energy is when I do physical things, anything involving doing/moving, and if nervous energy means being able to solve mental tasks and being inspired by mental activity then I again can say I'm both, I can have high energy levels for both. Though I would say physical energy was first, I developed my mind more later in life if that makes sense... though I did have mental activities as a kid too, just less easily inspired or how to put that.
"Hard-working vs Playful" - Both! Fun can come from the hard working too.
"Focused vs Scattered" - The first word pair where it's easier to choose. I'll say first, I hate being scattered, I don't feel good that way. I like focus. With certain specific tasks (simple physical stuff), I can sometimes try multitasking as a fun challenge and that's still a focused way of doing the job. If I'm browsing online, I hate having too many open tabs so I don't. Also, I don't have too many interests being active in the same time period because I focus into one of them deep and the rest just isn't interesting. However, I will change to a new interest later, after a long-ish time period, after having done a lot with previous interest. This switching happens unconsciously, I notice after the fact.
"Conscientious vs Irresponsible" - I am both. I take some things in life really seriously so I'm conscientious with those and I enjoy self-discipline in working for goals, OTOH I can have a problem with self-discipline in living life in general and I'm not really strongly morally principled so I'm irresponsible too..
"Realist vs Optimist" - Both
"Gain power vs Have fun" - Gain what kind of power exactly, that's vague to me. Power to me in general primarily means having resources for control. But I'll use a concrete example, in sport I want to be more powerful&strong, my concept of having fun in a sport really only comes from that or directly from competition. I don't play sports just to "have fun" in a light way. So, is that a good example? Otoh, I don't work hard to gain social powers as I'm not really part of society that much :/ so I'm just having fun with my life in that sense. Still, I have gained some material powers and am proud of that.
"Authoritarian vs Egalitarian" - I like the egalitarian view in theory. I'm not sure about how I go about it in practice. The only thing that comes to mind now, I can be pretty authoritarian in telling my opinion and get surprised if others take it the bad way.
"Vengeful vs Tolerant" - I can be both. Obviously not at the same time
8s are more present-focused. The "physical presence" revolves more around being "physically inclined" in my own observations, not necessarily that everyone notices your presence right away (and even if they do, it's generally something the 8 is oblivious to).
Actually "points" meant "parts of the types you don't identify with". But, this is OK too.
Well here 9 is the one that actually sounds closest to being psychologically related to you. You're perfectionism/idealism could be simply related to type 7. Could also be age-related--I'm getting the sense you're still quite young.
Yeah, it's the "inability to connect" that makes me think of you as a rejection type.What do you mean about this hidden love need?
As for my conscious attitude, I think it's really easiest to just not deal with this topic in my life. If I were to deal with it, well I know I require a kind of devotion and intensity, but otherwise in general, I relate to the inability to connect, as described on some enneagram sites. I'm not saying that's good at all, really doesn't match an "ideal" of mine.
Still sounds like you need to grow to 2!(Somewhat edited version of my reply from previous questionnaire)
I don't have a constantly active super-ego telling me "should". Quite honestly my superego is pretty weak hah.
Sometimes yes, I think to myself: ok, I should get up and do this task, should do that task before deadline (...I brush this aside very easily).
Less often I get the following:
Should be more polite to people, talk to people more in a social way, say "hi" to everyone and don't be argumentative.
Should open up and talk about issues to friends. Should be loving (...can't do it, block).
Should detach from wanting things so much (no!).
Should take responsibility for what I've done (bad things). Well ok I don't really get this message actually
Being "okay" is the 7 one. It means like not being seen with "problems" or people thinking you can't cope. Or that you don't know wtf you're talking about.
Here's one of the major reasons I first thought 8--you're aware of being a social outcast, and you're aware of the injustices you suffered at the hands of those who had more power. You're also very present-focused in ways that I don't exactly associate with 7s.
That's 9, 5, and 2.
That's 8, again.
2 and 8.
This was supposed to be for 3--your response, again, suggests 8 to me. You fear giving up your will over failing per se.
It means like owing people or having your time and energy at their disposal, not yours. 4 and 5 incidentally.
No worries mate. I doubted it for a long time myself.[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION] I think I misunderstood. I saw a lot of 2 in you, but you have none of the image concerns. You aren't an image type, I think 8 works for you.
While I'm here I should probably apologize to [MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] for doubting his 8ness as well
makes sense to me. I like how you considered not just enneagram I prefer to think of people as independent individuals. Well, 8w7 in the same source was labelled as Maverick, I relate to that just as well. I relate to that. As for my age, I'm not really younger than you are according to your profile, but the idealism stuff does come from an earlier age. and not because I was given one. I know most people don't work this way and I have no idea why I'm different with this *shrug* Don't know if that's type related. Don't worry about doing my own conclusions lol.
Tell you the truth, not really. But I did have an instance in my own life where I went slightly panicky and loopy and wound up begging for meds in the doctors office convinced I was going insane.
Ocean Moonshine is good. The problem is when you skim everything--that's what I did at first, I just read the "good parts" and consequently, I was lost on many of the finer points.
My own functions, I am convinced, make me atypical, and I've heard this from other ENTP 8s. I consider a lot of options and am prone to changing my mind and adapting to others--according to many, this makes me a core 6 and a 3-fixer (I'm so not).Yes I've heard that before that it's Se
I saw that you seemed "Perceivery", mainly. MANY of the 8s involved in enneagram stuff are ENTPs, so it just seemed natural. Upon a more careful reading, you seem more Se.
Honestly, I'm not sure. I do know one ESTP 7w8 who's like, Um...SENSOR BIAS. I have no future orientation!! There is sort of an ENxP bias in most 7 descriptions, which may skew things. But 7s do anticipate the next fun thing to do (hence the future orientation; common to head types) even if they're not futurists per se.That brings up a question I've had lingering in the back of my mind for a while, does ESxP 7 work differently with regard to present vs future orientedness as compared to ENxP 7? Se after all is focused on the present, type 7 is not so much, or how do the two work together?
Yes, the truth is more important; most people aren't persistent enough to actually lay out a huge case for this, though.Though it's again really not that simple, I *can* be convinced to change my view if someone's persistent and logical enough. But that's not obvious from the way I go about things, from my style. So I tend to explicitly say this to people but they never believe me on it
In a lot of ways, actually. What you mention is surely one of them.
Oh God...it took me like 15 years. Part of the problem was only reading the good parts of Wisdom and Personality Types and then relying on the internet for more information (I didn't know there was other stuff out there).How did you figure out your type then and what was your previous typing? Really curious..
Well to be honest, what you're saying here isn't necessarily social-instinct related. It's not necessarily about "groups" and stuff. Especially as an 8, I'd expect you not to be able to go along with the group. I'd expect you not to feel like you "need" anyone, etc.I don't know. I'm pretty sure I was typical So-last until I was about 13. By that I mean I enjoyed interaction within a group but I didn't seek it out and I was blissfully unaware of related things most of the time. Though yes as time went on I got more aware of being an outsider, what's more, an outcast of sorts. Still I didn't think that much about it, not saying it was always great but I was just fine being this way in general. Then at 13, I got interested in groups stuff, but I didn't have the social skills to do anything with that interest and things just got worse actually. So I ended up being really aloof in high school and people misunderstood my attitude, thought I looked down on them etc. I guess it contributed that I didn't have to study to still get the best grades, a lot ahead the whole class. Quite some conflict resulted from that misunderstanding after a while (and from other things as well, but this is a long story). Just to make that story complete, at the end of high school I decided to isolate myself physically and temporarily became really withdrawn like a 5 I guess. That disintegration thing to 5 makes a lot more sense to be honest, instead of integration to 5 which would be core 7.
Also I'm group-averse in terms of not going by group think, not following others. I could be ok with groups stuff if I was in a leading position but even then I wouldn't expect people to blindly follow my opinion without thinking. With thinking okay
Well does that say anything about the social instinct?
No idea. I think Riso and Hudson recommend building upon your inherent strengths, and the "growing" happens naturally. I personally can't make myself be "nicey nice" unless I'm mocking someone else, so clearly that's not the way to do it.
Sevens use "charm" as their first line of defense. They're not always charming, of course, but it's their sort of way of getting off the hook. I'd imagine an 8w7 or 6w7 would be able to utilize the same strategies, though it might be quicker to crash.
Not much, simply that you've not been the one compelled to move on. Mainly restating what you just wrote, I guess. It could be interpreted in any number of ways, not terribly type specific.
Sevens can be quite loyal and devoted, but they often have a need for leeway in a relationship and I think the "lack of devotion" thing is something they're less likely to hone in on. That's not set in stone, though.
Ocean Moonshine's good. I did type as 7 based on that, though.
Naranjo writes about the unhealthy, neurotic stuff each type does. I don't think you see that behavior until MUCH lower in the levels--if you're average-to-healthy you won't manifest this overtly. It may result in inconsideration, but any semi-normal person (regardless of type) isn't going to just hurt others for fun.
Yes, that. Maybe an inclination toward needing to physically discharge anger. Many 8s are athletic and/or have obscene amounts of stamina. Dismissing overly intellectual stuff as lame and impractical. Stuff like that.
If you're an 8, I wouldn't expect you to see yourself this way.Yes 9 struck me that way. Except that I'm really not that terribly passive and definitely not conflict avoidant
People were always telling me I was "too idealistic" as a youth as well. I maintain they just didn't care.
Welcome/
I haven't had the time to read the whole thread, actually. But, I think, again, the best bet is just to make you the best "you" you can be, and the 2 stuff comes naturally.:rolling eyes:
Actually, I can be pretty 2-ish at times, especially in relationships that I want to take seriously, that has been discussed in this thread earlier with [MENTION=13646]Haven[/MENTION]
It's just that I don't see how I would be 2-ish continuously. My mood will just change sooner or later, pretty reactive really.
Well 4s recall feeling "abandoned" or at least unmirrored by their care-takers. It's 7s who sometimes feel that they were "deprived" and will do everything to keep that from happening again.
It is! If you type as ExTP, you may well find that your Fe was just undeveloped.Is it possible to have been So-last until I turned 13 or so, then change to So-first?
...or that's something else. This social instinct thing is reminiscent of Fe as well, isn't it.
I'm not exactly sure, not being a core 3, but I get the sense their identity is tied to their outward measurement success...so they'll do everything to prevent a failure; or if they do fail, they'll try to reframe it, e.g., "Failure is just a step on the road to success". Their ego rests on being a success in some form, so there's an orientation towards the succeed/fail dichotomy. If you don't have a major issue with that, you're likely not a core 3.
Well, it means you're probably not a 5 or 2, but not necessarily more than that.Okay, I don't relate to that entanglements thing then. I'm not worried about spending my time and energy in whatever way I want, including spending it on people if I want.
I don't feel I'm owing people anything either. Example, if I get given a gift, I don't feel I owe them by returning the favour by e.g. giving them another gift that's worth about the same amount of money. Of course if I'm financially in the same position and I care about the person then I will probably be happy to give them a gift anyway
If you're the "anti-social" manifestation, you basically hate everything and everyone, and may follow social affairs in some form without being able to disconnect from it. Even if you hate it.Hmm... Can you say more about antisocial So-firsts?
Unfortunately, I can't speak with any authority on that. I think the folks who invented tritype peg 2-fixed 8s as being the big-spender, Mama- or Papa-bear types.
Everyone has an inner world! If yours is extremely important, I'd suggest the 4-fix. Sexual 7s can that sort of fantasy life, too, though.
Well, like what I mentioned above, in addition to the type just being too "awesome" for me. I hate all the stuff about 8s being "leaders" and having all this self-confidence. All the loud, in-your-face, extrovert stuff that gets tossed around.Hah, so, what bad stereotype/opinion did you have about 8's before?
I do relate to Se over Ne by a lot. (Another point against 7 core) I posted one enneagram type thread before a while ago knowing nothing really about enneagram, pretty much complete beginner (well I did shift through those books but that was about all) and I got typed as 8w7 right away. I just didn't want to accept it - was surprised as well - so I kept going back to the idea of 7 etc. I still do, actually It helped that some people did think on that forum that maybe I was a 7. Most descriptions I don't identify with 7 *this much*, that one's almost scary (same for the 8's description on the same site). Do you think that site is biased in some way or something? (Of course I don't identify with every little statement in the description but some of it did get me. The same for 8, though.) I just would never associate these things with hurting others for fun. No, it's more like I just don't think of others in the process at all. Is that the objectification thing? I think. Add to that my high IQ scores and I guess all that explains me. I don't even use my real name on it, let alone visit the site often. But I think I have an easier time detaching than what you describe here.. I would probably have the capabilities though other than the inclination to be social enough... social in this sense of having strong social instinct. Until I turned 13, I was like that all the time if interacting with people. Otherwise loner, yeah. ...I actually was afraid when entering some relationships that I would be hated after they get to see that side of mine. It didn't prevent me from being myself though I understand the idea about it though, I relate, I just think there's more to life. I understand people evolved in a way that we have this society helping everyone who needs help etc. Less emphasis on "survival of the fittest" on the level of the individual. Overall it clearly gives us an advantage in survival... unless we get to a point where we kill ourselves lol.
Pretty much that. Yeah.Heh that sounds slightly similar in a way but the only time I went for meds I thought I was physically sick, I truly felt like dying. I figured out pretty fast that this wasn't the case though, after talking to the doctor. I realised what was going on and thus I gained mental control to get rid of the issue. Ehh long story
Hope you don't have any problem anymore. Just curious, did they give you meds or did you just get dismissed as having some generic anxiety etc?
Yeah. That.Yeah, I was just trying to figure out my type and never did lol. There were a few types that I just decided not to even read much including 8 because taking one look at it made me think "nah not me". That black and white stereotype of a male 8 you know
When I first read about the function, I ID'd with Ti/Fe right away. Everyone else tried to persuade me I was an Fi user because I write with "conviction" and believe in things like treating others equally. When I read about Fi online, I was like OMG, I'm Fi-dom. I do fit their little blurbs about "seeing humanity in everyone, including criminals".
Go by the triads.true and my argumentative style just makes it even less likely to happen.. I do sometimes think that I should tone myself down more but it's so dependent on mood and I can't suppress these moods. Reactive triad really describes me well too
Well, there can just be this wall of "I'm not going to listen to you even if I nod and smile" and my roommate would simply stick her nose in the air and refuse to engage. She was a shit head.
That's great...where was it?Wow well I lucked out then..
Well, just doing the stuff in this survey. I'll mention more at the bottom.
Yeah, it seems to me they describe an off-the-wall multitalented person who can't settle down in life...which I am. They leave out the optimism (I suck at optimism) and that whole "you're OK, I'm OK" thing (I live in a state of hatred towards everything, including myself). Can be permissive, though. LOL.Now about Ocean moonshine, that's where I felt like I identified with 7 issues too, not just 8.
Consider social in your stacking, then. The instincts are the hardest part to figure out, most of what you hear online is shady at best, and I'm still not sure I understand them.
She doesn't get it that it matters when people ostracize you, for instance. She'll say things like, Just be who you are and everyone will accept you!! That's a lovely thought, but not how the world works. She also doesn't care much about what's happening in the world--no sense of community involvement. She likes staying in and reading fantasies and murder mysteries and only turns on the news for events like 9-11. She's a 9w1, which may influence it, but my step-father is 9w1 as well, and he's always getting upset about workplace politics and what's happening in the news. He's one of those anti-social socials--he hates everyone and just bitches and moans all the time.
You could also look for your "blindspot"--ie, your crap instinct.
Well one of the criticisms of enneagram is that it makes us all out to have something wrong with us, when actually, most of us don't. If you're content with your current levels of mental health, I'd say there is no particular need to "grow".I can be pretty kind and nice pretty naturally... as long as my mood and circumstances allow ;p So that's why I don't see how further growing would be possible :/ Not unless I solve the deep seated issues that cause me to behave this way, right?
It means like talking your way out of trouble rather than strong arming your way through things.
I can't remember enough about it. I already mentioned my criticism of 7; the 8 I don't remember enough. I thought it was great they mentioned 8s can be loners too, though. Not everyone mentions that.
Yeah, I guess others are just vaguely part of the background, or an abstraction. It doesn't reach full-on levels of dehumanization till you go unhealthy, though.Alright that makes sense
Well sure, you can still enjoy learning and stuff. Most human beings do. I consider myself to be a "smart" kid, too--same family situation, spent years taking overloaded classes in college cause I'm so interested in EVERYTHING.Yes, I have that inclination strongly, about anger.
But otherwise I'm actually inclined both intellectually and physically. I was brought up in an intellectual family, everyone's got university degrees and some of my relatives are actually professors and whatnot.
Haha, "obscene amounts of stamina", that describes me well too. And I'm really into sports so much that I think I might want to base a career on that or something related to that.
But I have to emphasize the intellectual side again, I don't dismiss intellectual stuff as lame. I think it's cool, not trivial stuff at all. Intellectual challenges can be just as hard and interesting as physical ones. Tbh physical ones aren't even that hard because if you have the will for it, it naturally brings the persistence to go on, but with intellectual challenges you have to have more of a certain sort of patience as well to meet them - this is the way I personally feel about it. Don't get me wrong, this actually makes it more interesting in a sense, the intellectual challenges. Physical stuff is more interesting in another sense. I guess I'm just sooo totally 50/50 on this, lol.
The only thing I would be dismissive of is if someone's only into the intellectual and physically they are a total wimp. But I dismiss it just as much if someone has no brain, just a body. I wouldn't try to decide which is worse.
Well, I do consider myself to be anti-intellectual, but more in the sense of impractical people who don't "get" life and spend all day splitting hairs. I like learning and exploring, but when I was in college and studying the Middle East, I was subject to years of reading about Egyptian cinema in the 1930s. Then I went to the middle East, and I was just like, WHYYYY??? WHY did I spend the last 3 years studying this???
TBH, I don't know. I just know that the 2 are associated; 7s often have an issue with the mother not being "nurturing" enough somehow.
I think it could be in there, yeah. I don't know you well enough to comment beyond that. The surest thing you can do is to examine motivations--are you motivated by 3ish stuff? I'd expect there to be a 2-connection if you're an 8, but the 4 is harder to explain.
Yeah, again, you may indeed be 4-fixed--examine motivations.I guess I very much like some things about my inner world yeah. It would be nice to get to the point where I'm capable of expressing these things so other people might enjoy them too. I have an interest in arts because of this but this is pretty on-off... I have created some things before in several areas in arts but that side of me is not strong enough to be on that consistently for that long but I'm sure one day I'll get there.
Not that my inner world is all about artsy fantasy stuff, it's about intellectual stuff as well, just as much, say half-half. Math, sciences. I am complex, hey!!
As for which type it is... My possible 4 fix really rejoiced when I was once told "wow you must have a really special inner life". Heh, yeah.
I do see some side of that inner life as possibly 7 sx, you are right, this is complex. Also all this about me listing so many sides and talents of mine, so 7-ish :/
What is the fantasy life like for 7 sx's? Is it in any way related to their real life? Because if so, that's not me. My imagination is very disconnected from my life, it's not about it at all. The other arts related stuff I was/am interested in isn't even about just having imagination in the head, it's more about creation, that is, expression of certain mental content.
Yeah, a number of 8s have had similar gripes about descriptions from what I understand. It's like no one finds a representative population, so they base their studies on dictators and Enron execs and try to report this stuff as though it's normal and common.Haha that's funny what you say about the type (8) being too awesome. I don't really find the types awesome so it's easy to imagine hey maybe I'm a 3 or I'm a 7... with 8 I had this problem you talk about though, being too "awesome". I don't like to imagine myself in any grandiose way, I prefer to be realistic, so yeah.. those stereotypes
Then I understand you on the "being leader" stuff as well. I never got social enough to be in a traditional leader role so I just don't have an opinion about it for myself
I do relate to having loads of self-confidence, I'm not really short on that and people can notice it easily most of the time, except when I'm sitting in the corner behaving in the withdrawn way (5-ish grrr). But otherwise they do notice.
If I'm not behaving in the withdrawn way, I'm loud and terrible so I at least relate to that part
I'm 6-fixed, worry about "alienating people", and spent the majority of my youth in my 5-connection, I think, so I'm pretty reserved about anger till you get to know me. But yeah. I expect people will hate me once they see what a tempermental headcase I am. I'm always surprised how forgiving and sympathetic others can actually be.Yeah maybe that appearance about having self-confidence is not enneagram related but more function related (extraversion and function related). HEY, I so totally relate to your last sentence here! (bolded) I mean I do show my temper etc at other times too pretty easily to anyone, but it's really a lot worse in relationships
Well that's my position. We're social animals, and it's in our nature to band together. We won't get very far if we're overly individualistic.Meh I argued with someone typing as a 8 about this "survival of the fittest" approach.
Embarrassed, really, about wimping on stuff--though I was unaware of it till the enneagram pointed it out to me. I had all this time to build a case for why I'm precisely NOT an 8, so now it's just really hard to accept. (It was one of the 3 types I initially identified with).
My problem is, I feel like I'm deceiving others.
Oh ocean moonshine...I'm a bit confused, if your "real" issues are more 4-ish and 5-ish what made you type as 8? I'm not questioning your type, I just would like to understand.
I myself decided to use the approach of picking the type for core that has the issues that I most strongly relate to. That's usually 8 but sometimes 7 gets me thinking still, e.g. that ocean moonshine site hmmm...
