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  1. #21
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    ok let's keep going

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    What way is that? Do elaborate please. Thanks.
    You seem image conscious in such a way that 8s and 7s aren't. These are types that care the least about what others think of them. You seem to care.

    Do you have another type in mind?
    I was going to suggest 2w3 as an alternative. The way you answer the following questions should confirm or deny that (ideally).

    Well it's like, I just enjoy being this way. Do ask specific questions if something is unclear about this.
    When do you decide it's time to move on from one thing?

    Well say, I decide to get up at the same time everyday. In practice that's hard to execute.
    Do you think you'd rather be more or less self disciplined? Are you more self disciplined when others are involved?

    As for the moral principles: I just don't have a consciously built up system about moral ideals that I would keep to.

    Example: friend says he never went to exams unprepared because he respected his teachers and thought they didn't deserve such treatment, that is, him as a student going unprepared, so he studied for the exams out of a principle. I studied for the exams not because of such a principle but because I wanted to pass the exams. I didn't care about the teachers at all in this sense. It's actually a foreign idea to me to do something just because someone else would be pleased or out of some feeling of obligation whatnot. None of that's me at all.

    Well "inspire" was maybe a strong word because I'm not quite sure how I would go about actually inspiring someone, but if someone talks about their plans or if they have an issue to solve, I do encourage them.

    Hm, inspiration, maybe it was when I was excited about something and others liked the passion and got interested too.
    Do you think you are in a position to inspire others, or would you like to be?

    I meant I like to own material things. I feel good having them. Possessive of my stuff. That actually includes some people to an extent
    Do you consider yourself possessive?

    Well I don't understand it because I'm definitely not this way. I really don't need to be rejected. Example, if I'm interested in someone, I don't put myself out there easily in an emotional sense, I don't expect things to be that great automatically. And if things don't go well, I'm not going to stand there crying in desperate sadness. As I said, this isn't even a conscious decision, there's this block inside protecting me from such shit. I'm sorry if I can't explain this very well. Do ask more specific questions please, then maybe I can explain better.
    How do you handle rejection, in general?

    I meant, challenges => feeling of aliveness I'm not saying it can't be frustrating if things don't want to work out easily.
    What drives you to meet these challenges?

    This persevering thing also ties into liking to have a focus and having one deep interest at a time.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    ok let's keep going
    Heh okay ;p


    You seem image conscious in such a way that 8s and 7s aren't. These are types that care the least about what others think of them. You seem to care.
    Can you elaborate on how I seem image conscious? What kind of things do you think I care about in terms of how others think about me?

    2w3, mmm, interesting thought.


    When do you decide it's time to move on from one thing?
    That's the thing I don't. It just happens on its own. I wouldn't call this "jumping around" though because it happens relatively rarely, I change focus once every couple of years on average.

    Sometimes I changed focus because the previous thing was simply ended (a specific project completed, or for other reasons no longer anything to do with it) but again, it wasn't done very consciously, I mean, the switch to something else.


    Do you think you'd rather be more or less self disciplined? Are you more self disciplined when others are involved?
    I would like to be more disciplined about leading my life, yes. This is - hard - work in progress, the sleep stuff too

    As for others involved, not really.

    E.g. if I have a deadline given by an organization then I'll meet the deadline but I can't say I do that in a disciplined way. I'll use school as an example again, I studied for the exam the day/night before exam day as that was the deadline.

    Oh well, you could say it's still fine because I at least meet the deadline. So that means I do have some control over my own impulses when needed :P. I get really focused and work hard and intensely to meet the deadlines.

    Otherwise, I naturally only have the self-discipline under one circumstance, mentioned here: "I enjoy self-discipline in working for goals". I wasn't precise enough there, I meant goals where I have strong intrinsic motivation.


    Do you think you are in a position to inspire others, or would you like to be?
    It's a nice thing, sure.

    How do you mean I would be in a position to do so?


    Do you consider yourself possessive?
    Of things, yes. Of people, it's less black and white, I'm not a total control freak, e.g. not at all jealous until there is a tangible reason. If there is a tangible reason, then I can be more like that, though... :/


    How do you handle rejection, in general?
    Emotionally I just shut down automatically. This response is not under my control. It's hard to feel even sadness, though it's happened at times. I think maybe I'm changing with this lately, though. Because I'm trying to get in control about this response.


    What drives you to meet these challenges?
    Um... the challenges themselves?

  3. #23
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    I edited a few lines, so if you were reading my first reply, you should re-read it now.

  4. #24
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    @valaki You just seem polite in general, like you are aware of how you come off to others in a way that non-image types aren't. It's really more of a feeling I get, it's hard to explain. Also, copious emoticons.

    I'm satisfied though, 2w3 sounds good.

    I wonder if you have an 8 fix, and if that makes you feel rejection differently than I do with my 9w1 fix.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    @valaki You just seem polite in general, like you are aware of how you come off to others in a way that non-image types aren't. It's really more of a feeling I get, it's hard to explain. Also, copious emoticons.
    Well I didn't know I was coming off as particularly polite :o I guess you haven't seen me arguing yet ;p


    I'm satisfied though, 2w3 sounds good.
    Which answers of mine were 2-ish and why?


    I wonder if you have an 8 fix, and if that makes you feel rejection differently than I do with my 9w1 fix.
    How are you with rejection?

  6. #26
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well I didn't know I was coming off as particularly polite :o I guess you haven't seen me arguing yet ;p
    I don't doubt that it's terrifying. At this moment you are being polite, you don't think so?

    Which answers of mine were 2-ish and why?
    Rejection sucks, it hurts 2s more than it does other types. Rather than be rejected, it's easier to reject our own needs. I don't just mean romantic rejection, but from jobs, and friends too (and other things I would imagine).

    Not backing down from challenges = pride of a 2. But in other cases where your pride isn't at stake, it's not as important for you right?

    2s are known to be very possessive.

    Partly it is also because of the difficulties you have in describing yourself. 2s can have difficulty seeing themselves as they are.

    How are you with rejection?
    Horrible, I just want to run away and not talk to anyone.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    I don't doubt that it's terrifying. At this moment you are being polite, you don't think so?



    Rejection sucks, it hurts 2s more than it does other types. Rather than be rejected, it's easier to reject our own needs. I don't just mean romantic rejection, but from jobs, and friends too (and other things I would imagine).

    Not backing down from challenges = pride of a 2. But in other cases where your pride isn't at stake, it's not as important for you right?

    2s are known to be very possessive.

    Partly it is also because of the difficulties you have in describing yourself. 2s can have difficulty seeing themselves as they are.



    Horrible, I just want to run away and not talk to anyone.
    8's also never back down from a challenge, and are more antagonizing than 2s in their assertiveness. (8's also have a form of the 2s fixation of pride called lust, meaning that they crave escalation and intensity but with a 3 fix are also reputation defending)

    8's are also known to be incredible domineering and possessive of those they care about.

    3 and 2s deal with rejection in similar ways, but a 3 is more likely to be deeply self-conscious about it and mask it with self-confidence whereas a 2 will seek the support of friends and allies or possibly keep helping people with personal problems in order to raise their self-esteem.

    3s have a harder time seeing who they are than 2s do. 3s actively mold their personality to fit the social structure, which 2w3s do as well, but 3s are much more chameleon-esque.

    If you experience rejection with anger combined with bitter contempt for yourself but mask it with self-confidence, I would say 8 with a 3 fix.
    If you experience rejection with anger combined with bitter contempt for yourself but actively seek to do good deeds to cheer you up, I'd say 8 with 2 fix.

    If you don't experience rejection with anger, then I don't think you would be a core 8 or have an extremely weak 8 fix.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Emotionally I just shut down automatically. This response is not under my control. It's hard to feel even sadness, though it's happened at times. I think maybe I'm changing with this lately, though. Because I'm trying to get in control about this response.

    Um... the challenges themselves?
    Typical 3 and 8 responses here.

    "Emotionally I just shut down" - Under negative or painful circumstances, Type 3s sub-consciously and somewhat consciously suppress their emotions so that they don't seem weak, fragile, or failing to themselves and the outside world.

    8's love challenges more than almost any other type (with 3 shortly behind), they love to express their self-confidence and love to feel the self-confident rush of beating a challenge or overcoming an obstacle (just as 3s do).

  9. #29
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    It is not difficult to see how Twos and Eights can be confused, although there is a world of difference between them. Some average Twos realize that they are forceful and dominating, two of the significant traits of Eights. A particularly aggressive Two may find himself or herself in a work-related role that requires leadership and discipline. For these and other reasons, it is possible for some Twos to misidentify themselves as Eights. This is especially true for male Twos, who, for cultural reasons, may prefer to emphasize these traits. (The difference even on these points, however, is that average Twos do not dominate others and their environment to extend their personal power. Twos do indeed dominate others, although indirectly: they may be overbearing and controlling, although always under the guise of being concerned for others. When Eights attempt to dominate, they make it clear that they are in a power struggle with the other.) Twos and Eights are nevertheless similar in the deep feelings and passion they bring to their relationships, although the expression of their feelings and the effects they have on others are quite different.

    It is worth noting that both types struggle with underlying feelings of rejection, although they cope with these feelings in different ways. These feelings probably predispose both types to have stormy relationships and, should conflicts occur, to express their intense passions in interpersonal conflicts (Eights) or in covert neediness and manipulation (Twos).

    The probable source of the confusion is that both types have strong wills and egos and a tendency to dominate others. Eights are openly aggressive, forceful, and egocentric, but are very direct in their communication. When Eights are not happy about something, they have no difficulty letting the other person know that they are angry or disappointed. Twos can also be aggressive, forceful, self-satisfied, ego centric, and so forth, although covertly, under an increasingly thin veneer of love. Twos have great difficulty communicating their anger openly, even though they may be very upset with someone. Thus, they use indirect approaches, trying to hint at, or failing that, to manipulate others into meeting their needs. By contrast, less healthy Eights intimidate people openly and when they are frustrated, they push harder to get what they want, possibly using direct threats. When Twos are frustrated, they try to make others feel guilty, especially by dramatizing the suffering they feel. Of course, as Twos become more overwhelmed by stress, they increasingly resemble Eights since Eight is the Two's Direction of Disintegration. Contrasting Twos such as Mother Teresa and Barbara Bush with Eights such as Indira Gandhi and former Governor of Texas, Ann Richards will yield more insight into these two types.
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    Yea this is a tough one
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    A good way to tell a 2 and 8 apart is their behavior when unhealthy.

    8's disintegrate to 5 and become much more antagonistic and untrusting of others (due to their new found 5-ish introversion and belief that the whole world is against them). 8's disintegration is akin to Antisocial Personality Disorder (Psychopathy/Sociopathy) and Sadistic Personality Disorder

    2's disintegrate to 8 and become much more antagonistic but at the same time still emphasize their need for emotional appreciation and become "clingy" to people and begin manipulating people "for their own good". 2's disintegration is akin to Masochistic/Self-Defeating Personality Disorder.

    8's are almost always Thinking types in MBTI, 2s are almost always Feeling Types in MBTI, and that comes from the Thinking and 8's egocentricity and the Feeling and 2's self-sacrificing behavior.

    An 8 with an extremely strong 3 fix will have the anger/lust/independent thinking of an 8 combined with the 3's need for approval, fame, and success, and will therefore be extremely reputation defending to the point of direct antagonism and social manipulation to reach the top of a social body when unhealthy.

    Also, 2s desire appreciation for their good deeds and helping demeanor, where 3s desire appreciation for their achievements and successes.

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