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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    In what way, since you said you don't have any grand vision, don't understand why people get so upset about things like feminism, and mostly only care about yourself and people who you like...that sounds collectively more ISFJ.

    Don't pick INFJ because it seems more glamorous, only pick it if it is correct.

    You just know things, ask why or what lies beneath, and examine singular concepts from multiple frameworks?
    With the exception of the grand vision part, what makes the listed traits Si? They sound like so instinct to me.
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  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    In what way, since you said you don't have any grand vision, don't understand why people get so upset about things like feminism, and mostly only care about yourself and people who you like...that sounds collectively more ISFJ.

    Don't pick INFJ because it seems more glamorous, only pick it if it is correct.

    You just know things, ask why or what lies beneath, and examine singular concepts from multiple frameworks?

    I dont really have any grand vision, thats totally true. But when it comes to discussing issues like feminism it often confuses me how I feel about such a topic. Im just catching myself arguing on both sides, finding good arguments for both sides of an aspect and using them wheter its the right time too. (If there are more people on the pro side I will tell all my pro arguments etc) And sometimes Im even finding myself arguing for both sides at once, which is a bit crazy I think.
    I think Im just trying to keep my opinion away and to argue how I think people want me to argue right now. When Im talking to my friends about issues I usually do try to stay as objective as possible. Maybe thats fear that my opinions will be rejected? Idk but thats what I do all the time. And I usually like discussing so I think I do seem a bit crazy in discussions.

    And with caring about myself I mean perfectionism. I care about being perfect and good enough so much.

    I dont even know if these are ISFJ or INFJ things but yeah.

    Im sorry that I give so many answers in which Im just rambling, but the point is, I really cant say if Im using Ni or Si because these are processes in my perception which I cant clearly identify by myself, because theyre just there and Im just thinking the way I do without being able HOW I do this.


    I do have a great memory for some situations I guess, but mostly when they were "traumatic", when I got hurt or when words hit me. These are things which are usually affecting me. I cant let go of these past experiences; I also do feel guilty a lot, even if I know theoretically that it wasnt really my fault and things alike.
    I do have a vague understanding of situations which I cant explain, Im always asking into detail. A friend of mine said that my questions are always a bit weird; they are logically and good, but these are things that no one really thinks about. She couldnt find good examples but thats how she described me to another friend of her.
    And I can say that teachers are sometimes a bit overwhelmed by my questions, because theyre "so complicated, and good and intelligent" and they never thought about this before.


    I often get these "Ive heard, seen, been there before" experiences but I cant tell where or when most of the time, I just know Ive heard that before. So I often get these deja-vu feelings because of that.
    Im also so much inside my head that its not normal anymore I think haha. It gets to the point that I cant remember faces, people, things that people told me and things a like, I just always remeber what I thought about that.
    For example a teacher told us that the brains of musicians would look different from those who arent musicians. And I thought, Im also singing and playing guitar, does this affect me? Does this make me smarter? In which way does that influence me ... . A few days after someone said something that made me think about this again and I couldnt remember in which lesson and by which teacher I got told this (or if this was even in school but my parents usually dont talk about such things so it had to be someone in school)



    So whats all this stuff in my head?

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by lume View Post
    I dont really have any grand vision, thats totally true. But when it comes to discussing issues like feminism it often confuses me how I feel about such a topic. Im just catching myself arguing on both sides, finding good arguments for both sides of an aspect and using them wheter its the right time too. (If there are more people on the pro side I will tell all my pro arguments etc) And sometimes Im even finding myself arguing for both sides at once, which is a bit crazy I think.
    I think Im just trying to keep my opinion away and to argue how I think people want me to argue right now. When Im talking to my friends about issues I usually do try to stay as objective as possible. Maybe thats fear that my opinions will be rejected? Idk but thats what I do all the time. And I usually like discussing so I think I do seem a bit crazy in discussions.

    And with caring about myself I mean perfectionism. I care about being perfect and good enough so much.

    I dont even know if these are ISFJ or INFJ things but yeah.

    Im sorry that I give so many answers in which Im just rambling, but the point is, I really cant say if Im using Ni or Si because these are processes in my perception which I cant clearly identify by myself, because theyre just there and Im just thinking the way I do without being able HOW I do this.


    I do have a great memory for some situations I guess, but mostly when they were "traumatic", when I got hurt or when words hit me. These are things which are usually affecting me. I cant let go of these past experiences; I also do feel guilty a lot, even if I know theoretically that it wasnt really my fault and things alike.
    I do have a vague understanding of situations which I cant explain, Im always asking into detail. A friend of mine said that my questions are always a bit weird; they are logically and good, but these are things that no one really thinks about. She couldnt find good examples but thats how she described me to another friend of her.
    And I can say that teachers are sometimes a bit overwhelmed by my questions, because theyre "so complicated, and good and intelligent" and they never thought about this before.


    I often get these "Ive heard, seen, been there before" experiences but I cant tell where or when most of the time, I just know Ive heard that before. So I often get these deja-vu feelings because of that.
    Im also so much inside my head that its not normal anymore I think haha. It gets to the point that I cant remember faces, people, things that people told me and things a like, I just always remeber what I thought about that.
    For example a teacher told us that the brains of musicians would look different from those who arent musicians. And I thought, Im also singing and playing guitar, does this affect me? Does this make me smarter? In which way does that influence me ... . A few days after someone said something that made me think about this again and I couldnt remember in which lesson and by which teacher I got told this (or if this was even in school but my parents usually dont talk about such things so it had to be someone in school)



    So whats all this stuff in my head?
    Hmmm....again you sound like my ISxJ 9 in not taking sides and trying to find middle ground. He has particularly strong morals about certain things too, bc of the one wing, it makes him have an authoritarian certainty about maybe ten things, but every thing else he says he lacks hard evidence or wants to compromise both sides. I am not pushing 9w1 on you, but please don't rule it out yet. Worry wart behavior is stressed nine disintegrating at six, and this detachment from life you describe sounds like average nine head space. Really.

    Your lack of memory of details, tell me, does this apply to what you care about? Si only pays attention to the specific details they care about, all else be damned, cuz they are not Se. Me, I am Se. I remember the shapes in the wood grain in the hallway when I was a kid. Inconsequential everything. Though ofc more things I care about, like any human being.

  4. #74

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    I'm not sure, I even forget important details. What I always remember is what I thought about a conversation for example, I remember the things I thought, I remember how I reacted to that.
    About some random conversations I can remember nearly every word. But it seems like when I'm under stress I go inside my head and then I just aren't able to remember anything because I didn't pay attention, and that's really annoying me. But I do remember important details pretty well, except I'm under a lot of stress.

  5. #75
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    @lume

    Thanks for your detailed reply to my last post. More follow-up on that and some of the other stuff you've posted is still on my "to do" list, but I'm in the middle of a few too many things at the moment, so there'll be some further delay.

    In the meantime, though...

    In the second post in this thread, @Stephano told you you're "definitely not a sensor" and, although I tend to avoid words like "definitely" when I'm typing someone — and especially on MBTI dimensions where they've expressed some doubt — I continue to think it is very unlikely that you're an S. Since Polly and RisaMoccasin were both also considering S in their recent type-me threads (before coming to their, no pun intended, senses), the posts linked below include quite a bit of input from me on INs and NFs and INFs — and, if you read them, maybe some of that will help you orient yourself better with respect to your S/N preference.

    This post (from Polly's thread) has three parts. The first is an "introduction to S and N" that may help nudge you to the N side. And the second and third parts have input from me and from David Keirsey on NTs and NFs.

    And this post is another three-parter from Polly's thread. The first part talks about Keirsey's mistake in labeling ISFP the "Artist" type — INFs being much more likely candidates, statistically speaking — and the second part talks about NFs and "new age" beliefs.

    And I just planted a long five-post series in RisaMoccasin's type-me thread (starting here), and I think you'll find (if you read it) that quite a bit of what I said there about INs and NFs and INFs (at least) applies to you — and maybe quite a bit of the INFJ stuff as well, if you're a J. She's a relatively unambiguous INFJ (IMHO), and I'd say both your F and J preferences (if that's what you have) are significantly less strong than hers, although I still have mild F and J leans for you. Since I'd already linked RisaMoccasin to those two Polly-thread posts, that later five-post series doesn't repeat the things in the Polly-thread posts.

    That's a lot of stuff, and definitely don't feel any pressure to read it to the extent that you're not motivated to do so for your own purposes. But if you do read it, I'd be interested to hear about any strong "that's me" or "that's not me" reactions you might have, either to Polly's and/or RisaMoccasin's self-descriptions (as quoted in my posts) or to any of the things I say about, e.g., NFs or INFs or INFJs.

    As a final note, and as long as I'm giving you links to typing input from me: Polly's a Limbic INFP (IMHO; although she's decided on ENFP for the moment) and, in case reading about RisaMoccasin's relatively strong J-ness gets you thinking maybe you're more of a P after all, you can find quite a bit of commentary from me on Limbic INFPs — including, to some extent, how they differ from INFJs — in this third post from Polly's type-me thread

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    @lume

    Thanks for your detailed reply to my last post. More follow-up on that and some of the other stuff you've posted is still on my "to do" list, but I'm in the middle of a few too many things at the moment, so there'll be some further delay.

    In the meantime, though...

    In the second post in this thread, @Stephano told you you're "definitely not a sensor" and, although I tend to avoid words like "definitely" when I'm typing someone — and especially on MBTI dimensions where they've expressed some doubt — I continue to think it is very unlikely that you're an S. Since Polly and RisaMoccasin were both also considering S in their recent type-me threads (before coming to their, no pun intended, senses), the posts linked below include quite a bit of input from me on INs and NFs and INFs — and, if you read them, maybe some of that will help you orient yourself better with respect to your S/N preference.

    This post (from Polly's thread) has three parts. The first is an "introduction to S and N" that may help nudge you to the N side. And the second and third parts have input from me and from David Keirsey on NTs and NFs.

    And this post is another three-parter from Polly's thread. The first part talks about Keirsey's mistake in labeling ISFP the "Artist" type — INFs being much more likely candidates, statistically speaking — and the second part talks about NFs and "new age" beliefs.

    And I just planted a long five-post series in RisaMoccasin's type-me thread (starting here), and I think you'll find (if you read it) that quite a bit of what I said there about INs and NFs and INFs (at least) applies to you — and maybe quite a bit of the INFJ stuff as well, if you're a J. She's a relatively unambiguous INFJ (IMHO), and I'd say both your F and J preferences (if that's what you have) are significantly less strong than hers, although I still have mild F and J leans for you. Since I'd already linked RisaMoccasin to those two Polly-thread posts, that later five-post series doesn't repeat the things in the Polly-thread posts.

    That's a lot of stuff, and definitely don't feel any pressure to read it to the extent that you're not motivated to do so for your own purposes. But if you do read it, I'd be interested to hear about any strong "that's me" or "that's not me" reactions you might have, either to Polly's and/or RisaMoccasin's self-descriptions (as quoted in my posts) or to any of the things I say about, e.g., NFs or INFs or INFJs.

    As a final note, and as long as I'm giving you links to typing input from me: Polly's a Limbic INFP (IMHO; although she's decided on ENFP for the moment) and, in case reading about RisaMoccasin's relatively strong J-ness gets you thinking maybe you're more of a P after all, you can find quite a bit of commentary from me on Limbic INFPs — including, to some extent, how they differ from INFJs — in this third post from Polly's type-me thread

    Thanks a lot, I will definetely read this but I dont have so much time now so Ill do it on weekends.

    But I have got a question, I read a bit in the ISFJ threads and they all said that they acted very introvert as a child. When I think of my childhood I was extrovert, open, friendly, talked so much even to strangers and I never wanted to play alone. I was really into pleasing others and following all rules to be liked, I wouldve never lie and I always felt guilty. I asked a lot, I was an intelligent little girl, curious about whats going on, about deeper meanings and so on. When I think of me as a child I felt some Fe and Ni going on.
    When I was 12 I broke off contact with my father because he did things to me that broke me emotionally, since that ive gone cold, distant, acted introvert etc. because I was so deeply hurt. I locked my feelings away to avoid getting hurt another time. I read that Fe is very sensitive and needs so protect itself sometimes... Now that I have my boyfriend I really begin to open up, I cant stand to sit alone in my room for having alone time anymore, I try to be sociable but I just cant anymore because Ive shut myself completely for the last years.

    Could it theorethically be, that Im an natural extrovert. whos gone introvert mode or something? Because Im into this MBTI typing for 2 years now and I always assumed that Im introvert, but no introvert type really fitted me well enough I think. And on cognitive functions tests I also got some extroverted types as second types. Could I be an emotionally meddes up ENFJ or something?

  7. #77
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lume View Post
    Thanks a lot, I will definetely read this but I dont have so much time now so Ill do it on weekends.

    But I have got a question, I read a bit in the ISFJ threads and they all said that they acted very introvert as a child. When I think of my childhood I was extrovert, open, friendly, talked so much even to strangers and I never wanted to play alone. I was really into pleasing others and following all rules to be liked. ...

    When I was 12 I broke off contact with my father because he did things to me that broke me emotionally, since that ive gone cold, distant, acted introvert etc. because I was so deeply hurt. I locked my feelings away to avoid getting hurt another time. ... Now that I have my boyfriend I really begin to open up, I cant stand to sit alone in my room for having alone time anymore, I try to be sociable but I just cant anymore because Ive shut myself completely for the last years.

    Could it theorethically be, that Im an natural extrovert. whos gone introvert mode or something? Because Im into this MBTI typing for 2 years now and I always assumed that Im introvert, but no introvert type really fitted me well enough I think. And on cognitive functions tests I also got some extroverted types as second types. Could I be an emotionally meddes up ENFJ or something?
    Although, all other things being equal, an introverted child can certainly be expected to feel/act more introverted than an extraverted child, it's also quite typical for an introverted child, growing up in an untroubled family/school environment in which she excels (and which mostly involves interaction with familiar people), to feel/act significantly more extraverted than she will as an adult. That was true for me in spades. I'm pretty strongly introverted, but was something of a class clown in my school days, and significantly more gregarious than in my adult incarnation — while at the same time being significantly less gregarious than my extraverted classmates.

    And I'm a T. As far as the importance of friends and other people in somebody's life goes, T/F can play just as important a role as E/I, with EFs being the most social types, ITs being the least social types, and ETs and IFs in between. As you may already know, the types with the greatest hermit potential are the ITs, and especially male ITs. IFs are introverts, and that means they'll tend to favor social interaction that involves what's often referred to as their "inner circle," but it's not at all uncommon for IFs — and this is more true during their school years than later in life — to end up having a regular gang (or two) who they spend a lot of their free time hanging out with. And it's always important to keep in mind that, in general, the differences between introverts and extraverts tend to be substantially more pronounced when they're dealing with strangers or not-too-close acquaintances than when they're dealing with their family, friends and familiar classmates.

    You scored as a "clear" introvert (20 out of 21 items) on the official MBTI, and introversion was your highest score (82%) on that Big Five test, and your posts make you sound significantly more introverted than extraverted to me. Never say never, but I'd say it's very unlikely, notwithstanding those traumatic experiences with your father, that you're really an extravert with some kind of introverted shell.

  8. #78
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    As Jung saw it — as you may know if you followed @Marmotini's or @brainheart's links – Si-doms were awkward, touchy eccentrics, detached from reality, who inhabited "a mythological world, where men, animals, railways, houses, rivers, and mountains appear partly as benevolent deities and partly as malevolent demons." Not only does Jung's portrait bear little resemblance to a typical IS_J, I think anyone not inclined to treat Jung with too much reverence would have to agree that Jung's portrait bears little resemblance to any significantly numerous group of normal-range people who've ever walked the face of the earth.

    In describing what he referred to as "the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type," Jung said that an Si-dom "has an illusory conception of reality," and that the relation between the actual physical world and the Si-dom's perceptions of it is "unpredictable and arbitrary." Both because of that and because, in Jung's view, the Si-dom's thinking and feeling functions "are relatively unconscious and, if conscious at all, have at their disposal only the most necessary, banal, everyday means of expression," Jung said that not only is it typical for Si-doms to be unable to really communicate their views to the world in understandable ways — an Si-dom also typically "fares no better in understanding himself."

    Jung said the main hope for an Si-dom to be able to communicate his thoughts to others was through art — in which case, although others would then be able to get a better glimpse of the Si-dom's soul, it would also be "strikingly clear" how "irrational" the Si-dom's perspectives were — but, alas, Jung also noted that artistic Si-doms were the exception rather than the rule, with the result that, "as a rule, [the Si-dom] resigns himself to his isolation."

    Myers, as you may know, abandoned the vast majority of Jung's strange, collective-unconscious-dominated conception of what Si involved in creating her portraits of IS_Js — based on many years of typing and gathering correlational data with respect to thousands of subjects.

    Far from suffering from a "reality-alienating subjectivity" that caused their relation to the real world to be "unpredictable and arbitrary," Myers portrayed IS_Js as among the most down-to-earth and realistic of all the types. She called them the "most practical of the introvert types," and said "they have a complete, realistic, practical respect both for the facts and for whatever responsibilities these facts create. Sensing provides the facts, and after the introverts' characteristic pause for reflection, their judgment accepts the responsibilities."

    Far from being uncommunicative eccentrics who more grounded and productive people would be prone to view as (in Jung's words) "the most useless of men," Myers viewed IS_Js as having the kinds of personality characteristics that tend to make them model employees in many respects. To quote the brief capsule descriptions at the myersbriggs.org website:
    From what I have read here now, it seems, Jung has described (unhealthy) Si-Dom what we know today as inferior Ne. So what I'm getting at is. Meyers changed that the exception becomes inferior Ne, which is the state that the Si-dom can appear like, when in an unhealthy state. Perhaps Jung has gone further and said that, these things lurk deeper in the unconscious. Perhaps this is where he explored further with his "red book"?

  9. #79
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    From what I have read here now, it seems, Jung has described (unhealthy) Si-Dom what we know today as inferior Ne. So what I'm getting at is. Meyers changed that the exception becomes inferior Ne, which is the state that the Si-dom can appear like, when in an unhealthy state. Perhaps Jung has gone further and said that, these things lurk deeper in the unconscious. Perhaps this is where he explored further with his "red book"?
    One of the canards that pops up from time to time in internet forum posts is the one that says that Jung's type descriptions in Chapter 10 of Psychological Types were extreme — or "unhealthy," or otherwise unusual — portraits that wouldn't much resemble typical people of the applicable type. And really, when you think about it, WTF sense would that have made? Jung spent most of Psychological Types talking about the things he saw as common to all introverts and all extraverts. Chapter 10 is the only place where he gave us anything like in-depth descriptions of his eight functions. Why on earth would he not have described what he viewed as the more or less typical characteristics of his types?

    And he did. There's certainly some inconsistency among the portraits in terms of the ratio of the more ordinary stuff and the here's-what-happens-when-they-get-neurotic stuff. But his general approach in those eight portraits is to first describe the more-or-less ordinary version of the type — which means what the type is like when the unconscious is supplying enough ordinary day-to-day "compensation" to prevent the person from becoming too "one-sided" — and then to go on to describe the neurotic version of the type that results if the unconscious functions are overly suppressed and end up wreaking havoc.

    In my experience, the notion that Chapter 10 only described extreme (or otherwise unusual) versions of the types is most often encountered in the posts of Jung defenders who don't want to own up to the fact that Jung actually got quite a bit wrong in coming up with his typological concepts — and who therefore brush off some of the more cartoonish stuff in Chapter 10 by saying, oh, well, you know, Chapter 10 isn't really about what the functions are like in normal people.

    The Jung passage that such defenders most often point to is this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that these types occur at all frequently in such pure form in actual life. They are, as it were, only Galtonesque family portraits, which single out the common and therefore typical features, stressing them disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced. Closer investigation shows with great regularity that, besides the most differentiated function, another, less differentiated function of secondary importance [— i.e., the auxiliary function —] is invariably present in consciousness and exerts a co-determining influence.
    What Jung is saying in this passage is that his eight portraits are artifically "pure" portraits in the sense of leaving out the "individual features" that tend to distinguish, say, one Si-dom from another Si-dom —and, most notably, an Si-dom with a T-aux from an Si-dom with an F-aux. (It's important to remember that the sentence about the "pure form" was at the start of the paragraph where Jung introduces the reader to the auxiliary function.)

    When it comes to the characteristics that derive from Si (for example), and will therefore tend to found in Si-doms generally, Jung says that his portraits concentrate on "the common and therefore typical features" of the type. So it makes no sense to claim that the features Jung described as "common" and "typical" were features he thought would only show up in rare cases. And that would also be inconsistent with some of the language Jung uses in the Si-dom portrait specifically — e.g., after noting that the artistic Si-dom is the exception rather than the norm, he says that "as a rule," an Si-dom "resigns himself to his isolation."

    The term "Galtonesque family portraits" is a reference to Francis Galton, often referred to as the "father of psychometrics," and that's consistent with the idea that Jung's portraits were primarily intended to reflect the personality characteristics that were statistically the most likely to be found in people with that type.

    As a final clarification with respect to the relationship between the "purity" Jung is referring to and the auxiliary function, please note that there's a big difference between saying (1) that Jung's portraits are artificially "pure" in the sense of omitting the features that would vary depending on which auxiliary function someone had, and (2) that the people Jung is describing are the "pure" people who don't have an auxiliary function. Jung makes it clear that he thought it was overwhelmingly typical to have an auxiliary function — and in fact, he went so far as to say that an auxiliary function is "invariably present in consciousness." So... there's no way Jung would have described Si characteristics that were only present in some rare no-auxiliary-function subset of Si-doms as characteristics that were the "common and therefore typical" features of the type.

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