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so confused about my type

Mal12345

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Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
thank you for the long response, i made the big five test


Extroversion |||| 18%
Orderliness |||||||||||||||| 70%
Emotional Stability |||||| 26%
Accommodation |||||||||| 34%
Inquisitiveness |||||||||||||||| 64%


When I discovered MBTI i always thought about me being a thinker but i thought that couldnt be because im so sensitive. and i dont know maybe thats all random now but i can remember, when i was a child i were really helpful and nice and i behaved more extroverted. and it changed when i was 12 or something because i was emotionally hurt so badly by my father that i completely shut down and i became unsure of myself and shy as fuck. and i really became cold and always kept my distance. Maybe what I could mention is that i was in therapy because of depression and there i got told that im probably a thinker. but is it possible to be a sweet, warm and friendly kid who is a thinker as a teenager? i just mention my childhood so often because thats what i can really remember, now im just a little bit messed up and i soemtimes cant really tell what i am like, altough i often have this feelinng of writing completely unordered stuff and everyones just like "youre so organised and youre writing very well"

maybe thats all just useless rambling that no one can understand, im so sorry

There is no proof that any of [MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION]'s Jung quotes about the Si-dom actually correspond by what we call ISxJ. Perhaps ISxJ is all that Myers-Briggs says they are, and then some. But that has nothing to do with Jung's Si-dom type.
 

lume

New member
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
62
INFJ
At Their Best

People with INFP preferences have an inner core of values that guides their interactions and decisions. They want to be involved in work that contributes to both their own growth and inner development and those of others-- to have a purpose beyond their paycheck. They make a priority of clarifying their values and living in congruence with them.

INFPs recognize and honor the emotional and psychological needs of others, even when others may not have recognized or expressed their own needs.

Characteristics of INFPs

INFPs primarily use their Feeling preference internally where they make decisions based on their values of self-understanding, individuality, and growth. Living by moral commitments to what they believe in is crucial to INFPs. They are likely to be

§ Sensitive, concerned, and caring

§ Idealistic and loyal to their ideas



INFPs enjoy reading, discussing, and reflecting on possibilities of positive change in the future. They are curious about ideas and quick to see connections and meanings. INFPs are likely to

§ Be curious and creative

§ Have long-range version

INFPs are usually fascinated by opportunities to explore the complexities of human personality - their own and others'. They tend to work in bursts of energy and are capable of great concentration and output when fully engaged in a project. They are generally faithful in fulfilling obligations related to people, work, or ideas to which they are committed, but they can have difficulty performing routine work that has little meaning for them.

How Other May See Them

INFPs find structures and rules confining and prefer to work autonomously. They are adaptable and flexible until something violates their inner values. Then they stop adapting. The resulting expression of value judgments can emerge with an intensity that is surprising to others.

INFPs tend to be reserved and selective about sharing their most deeply held values and feelings. They value relationships based on depth, authenticity, true connection, and mutual growth. INFPs prize most those who take time to understand their values and goals. Others usually see INFPs as

§ Sensitive, introspective, and complex

§ Original and individual

§ Sometimes difficult to understand


Potential Areas for Growth

Sometimes life circumstances have not supported INFPs in the development and expression of their Intuition and Feeling preferences.

§ If they have not developed their Intuition, INFPs may not have reliable ways to take in information and may fail to notice the realities of situations. Then they may make decisions based solely on personal values and find it difficult to translate their values into action.

§ If they have not developed their Feeling, they may not take time for the inner valuing process by which they make their best decisions, instead going from one exciting possibility to another and achieving little.

If INFPs do not find a place where they can use their gifts and be appreciated for their contributions, they usually feel frustrated and may

§ Have uncharacteristic difficulty expressing themselves verbally

§ Withdraw from people and situations

§ Not give enough information to others, especially about important values

It is natural for INFPs to gives less attention to their non-preferred Thinking and Sensing parts. If they neglect these too much, however, they may

§ Become easily discouraged about the contrast between their ideals and accomplishments.

§ Reject logical reasoning even in situations that require it, asserting the supremacy of their internal viewpoint

§ Be impractical and have difficulty estimating the resources required to reach a desired goal.


Under great stress, INFPs may begin seriously doubting their own competence and that of others, becoming overly critical and judgmental.

So thats INFP, I marked the passages that seem to represent me, to the passages with the values; I do have my values and can become frustrated if someone doesnt go along with that, but these are usually values that are accepted and important for society.





INFJs focus on possibilities, think in terms of values and come easily to decisions. The small number of
this type (1 percent) is regrettable, since INFJs have unusually strong drive to contribute to the welfare of
others and genuinely enjoy helping their fellow men. This type has great depth of personality; they are
themselves complicated, and can understand and deal with complex issues and people.


It is an INFJ who is likely to have visions of human events past, present, or future. If a person demonstrates
an ability to understand psychic phenomena better than most others, this person is apt to be an INFJ.
Characteristically, INFJs have strong empathic abilities and can be aware of another’s emotions or intents
even before that person is conscious of these. This can take the form of feeling the distress of illnesses of
others to an extent, which is difficult for other types. INFJs can intuit good and evil in others, although they
seldom can tell how they came to know. Subsequent events tend to bear them out, however.

INFJs are usually good students, achievers who exhibit an unostentatious creativity. They take their work
seriously and enjoy academic activity. They can exhibit qualities of over perfectionism and put more into a
task than perhaps is justified by the nature of the task. They generally will not be visible leaders, but will
quietly exert influence behind the scenes.


INFJs are hard to get to know. They have an unusually rich inner life, but they are reserved and tend not to
share their reactions except with those they trust. Because of their vulnerability through a strong facility to
introject, INFJs can be hurt rather easily by others, which, perhaps, is at least one reason they tend to be
private people. People who have known an INFJ for years may find sides emerging, which come as a
surprise. It's not that INFJs are inconsistent; they are very consistent and value integrity. But they have
convoluted, complex personalities, which sometimes puzzle even them.


INFJs like to please others and tend to contribute their own best efforts in all situations. They prefer and
enjoy agreeing with others, and find conflict disagreeable and destructive.
What is known as ESP is likely
found in an INFJ more than in any other types, although other types are capable of such phenomena. INFJs
have vivid imaginations exercised both as memory and intuition, and this can amount to genius, resulting at
times in an INFJ’s being seen as mystical. This unfettered imagination often will enable this person to
compose complex and often aesthetic works of art such as music, mathematical systems, poems, plays, and
novels.
In a sense, the INFJ is the most poetic of all the types.

Just as the ENTJ cannot not lead, so must an INFJ intuit; this capability extends to people, things, and often
events, taking the form of visions, episodes of foreknowledge, premonitions, auditory and visual images of
things to come
. INFJs can have uncanny communications with certain individuals at a distance.






As an ISFP, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit into your value system. Your secondary mode is external, where you take things in via your five sense in a literal, concrete fashion.

ISFPs live in the world of sensation possibilities. They are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell. They have a strong aesthetic appreciation for art, and are likely to be artists in some form, because they are unusually gifted at creating and composing things which will strongly affect the senses. They have a strong set of values, which they strive to consistently meet in their lives. They need to feel as if they're living their lives in accordance with what they feel is right, and will rebel against anything which conflicts with that goal. They're likely to choose jobs and careers which allow them the freedom of working towards the realization of their value-oriented personal goals.

ISFPs tend to be quiet and reserved, and difficult to get to know well. They hold back their ideas and opinions except from those who they are closest to. They are likely to be kind, gentle and sensitive in their dealings with others. They are interested in contributing to people's sense of well-being and happiness, and will put a great deal of effort and energy into tasks which they believe in.

ISFPs have a strong affinity for aesthetics and beauty. They're likely to be animal lovers, and to have a true appreciation for the beauties of nature. They're original and independent, and need to have personal space. They value people who take the time to understand the ISFP, and who support the ISFP in pursuing their goals in their own, unique way. People who don't know them well may see their unique way of life as a sign of carefree light-heartedness, but the ISFP actually takes life very seriously, constantly gathering specific information and shifting it through their value systems, in search for clarification and underlying meaning.

ISFPs are action-oriented individuals. They are "doers", and are usually uncomfortable with theorizing concepts and ideas, unless they see a practical application. They learn best in a "hands-on" environment, and consequently may become easily bored with the traditional teaching methods, which emphasize abstract thinking. They do not like impersonal analysis, and are uncomfortable with the idea of making decisions based strictly on logic. Their strong value systems demand that decisions are evaluated against their subjective beliefs, rather than against some objective rules or laws.

ISFPs are extremely perceptive and aware of others. They constantly gather specific information about people, and seek to discover what it means. They are usually penetratingly accurate in their perceptions of others.

ISFPs are warm and sympathetic. They genuinely care about people, and are strongly service-oriented in their desire to please. They have an unusually deep well of caring for those who are close to them, and are likely to show their love through actions, rather than words.

ISFPs have no desire to lead or control others, just as they have no desire to be led or controlled by others. They need space and time alone to evaluate the circumstances of their life against their value system, and are likely to respect other people's needs for the same.

The ISFP is likely to not give themself enough credit for the things which they do extremely well. Their strong value systems can lead them to be intensely perfectionist, and cause them to judge themselves with unneccesary harshness.

The ISFP has many special gifts for the world, especially in the areas of creating artistic sensation, and selflessly serving others. Life is not likely to be extremely easy for the ISFP, because they take life so seriously, but they have the tools to make their lives and the lives of those close to them richly rewarding experiences.




As an ISFJ, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you takes things in via your five senses in a literal, concrete fashion. Your secondary mode is external, where you deal with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit into your personal value system.

ISFJs live in a world that is concrete and kind. They are truly warm and kind-hearted, and want to believe the best of people. They value harmony and cooperation, and are likely to be very sensitive to other people's feelings. People value the ISFJ for their consideration and awareness, and their ability to bring out the best in others by their firm desire to believe the best.

ISFJs have a rich inner world that is not usually obvious to observers. They constantly take in information about people and situations that is personally important to them, and store it away. This tremendous store of information is usually startlingly accurate, because the ISFJ has an exceptional memory about things that are important to their value systems. It would not be uncommon for the ISFJ to remember a particular facial expression or conversation in precise detail years after the event occured, if the situation made an impression on the ISFJ.

ISFJs have a very clear idea of the way things should be, which they strive to attain. They value security and kindness, and respect traditions and laws. They tend to believe that existing systems are there because they work. Therefore, they're not likely to buy into doing things in a new way, unless they're shown in a concrete way why its better than the established method.

ISFJs learn best by doing, rather than by reading about something in a book, or applying theory. For this reason, they are not likely to be found in fields which require a lot of conceptual analysis or theory. They value practical application. Traditional methods of higher education, which require a lot of theorizing and abstraction, are likely to be a chore for the ISFJ. The ISFJ learns a task best by being shown its practical application. Once the task is learned, and its practical importance is understood, the ISFJ will faithfully and tirelessly carry through the task to completion. The ISFJ is extremely dependable.

The ISFJ has an extremely well-developed sense of space, function, and aesthetic appeal. For that reason, they're likely to have beautifully furnished, functional homes. They make extremely good interior decorators. This special ability, combined with their sensitivity to other's feelings and desires, makes them very likely to be great gift-givers - finding the right gift which will be truly appreciated by the recipient.

More so than other types, ISFJs are extremely aware of their own internal feelings, as well as other people's feelings. They do not usually express their own feelings, keeping things inside. If they are negative feelings, they may build up inside the ISFJ until they turn into firm judgments against individuals which are difficult to unseed, once set. Many ISFJs learn to express themselves, and find outlets for their powerful emotions.

Just as the ISFJ is not likely to express their feelings, they are also not likely to let on that they know how others are feeling. However, they will speak up when they feel another individual really needs help, and in such cases they can truly help others become aware of their feelings.

The ISFJ feels a strong sense of responsibility and duty. They take their responsibilities very seriously, and can be counted on to follow through. For this reason, people naturally tend to rely on them. The ISFJ has a difficult time saying "no" when asked to do something, and may become over-burdened. In such cases, the ISFJ does not usually express their difficulties to others, because they intensely dislike conflict, and because they tend to place other people's needs over their own. The ISFJ needs to learn to identify, value, and express their own needs, if they wish to avoid becoming over-worked and taken for granted.

ISFJs need positive feedback from others. In the absence of positive feedback, or in the face of criticism, the ISFJ gets discouraged, and may even become depressed. When down on themselves or under great stress, the ISFJ begins to imagine all of the things that might go critically wrong in their life. They have strong feelings of inadequacy, and become convinced that "everything is all wrong", or "I can't do anything right".

The ISFJ is warm, generous, and dependable. They have many special gifts to offer, in their sensitivity to others, and their strong ability to keep things running smoothly. They need to remember to not be overly critical of themselves, and to give themselves some of the warmth and love which they freely dispense to others.




INTP
Gender issues are especially pointed for the INTP female. While all of the internal conceptualizing, however misunderstood, may be tolerated in a male, society is less likely to tolerate the same characteristic in a female. The absentminded professor is another image more conventionally male than female. This creates at least three special problems for the INTP female: First, women historically have not been looked upon as the architects of much beyond their own homes and families. The constant desire to make life conform to a theoretical model, while true to the INTP preference, flies in the face of traditional female roles. Second, conceptual originality is similarly not a traditional female trait. Some INTPs, asked the time of day, would be tempted to expound on the philosophical meaning of time; this eccentricity in a man may be looked upon as the result of overintelligence, in a woman it may result in her being labeled "dizzy" or even "dumb." Finally, the Thinking preference of INTPs directly counters most females' scripting to be subjective, soft, and caring. Even worse, when an INTP female's feeling side does surface, it often does so with intensity, an outpouring that can be frightening to both herself and others.

As an INTP, your primary mode of living is focused internally, where you deal with things rationally and logically. Your secondary mode is external, where you take things in primarily via your intuition.

INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities. They see everything in terms of how it could be improved, or what it could be turned into. They live primarily inside their own minds, having the ability to analyze difficult problems, identify patterns, and come up with logical explanations. They seek clarity in everything, and are therefore driven to build knowledge. They are the "absent-minded professors", who highly value intelligence and the ability to apply logic to theories to find solutions. They typically are so strongly driven to turn problems into logical explanations, that they live much of their lives within their own heads, and may not place as much importance or value on the external world. Their natural drive to turn theories into concrete understanding may turn into a feeling of personal responsibility to solve theoretical problems, and help society move towards a higher understanding.

INTPs value knowledge above all else. Their minds are constantly working to generate new theories, or to prove or disprove existing theories. They approach problems and theories with enthusiasm and skepticism, ignoring existing rules and opinions and defining their own approach to the resolution. They seek patterns and logical explanations for anything that interests them. They're usually extremely bright, and able to be objectively critical in their analysis. They love new ideas, and become very excited over abstractions and theories. They love to discuss these concepts with others. They may seem "dreamy" and distant to others, because they spend a lot of time inside their minds musing over theories. They hate to work on routine things - they would much prefer to build complex theoretical solutions, and leave the implementation of the system to others. They are intensely interested in theory, and will put forth tremendous amounts of time and energy into finding a solution to a problem with has piqued their interest.

INTPs do not like to lead or control people. They're very tolerant and flexible in most situations, unless one of their firmly held beliefs has been violated or challenged, in which case they may take a very rigid stance. The INTP is likely to be very shy when it comes to meeting new people. On the other hand, the INTP is very self-confident and gregarious around people they know well, or when discussing theories which they fully understand.

The INTP has no understanding or value for decisions made on the basis of personal subjectivity or feelings. They strive constantly to achieve logical conclusions to problems, and don't understand the importance or relevance of applying subjective emotional considerations to decisions. For this reason, INTPs are usually not in-tune with how people are feeling, and are not naturally well-equiped to meet the emotional needs of others.

The INTP may have a problem with self-aggrandizement and social rebellion, which will interfere with their creative potential. Since their Feeling side is their least developed trait, the INTP may have difficulty giving the warmth and support that is sometimes necessary in intimate relationships. If the INTP doesn't realize the value of attending to other people's feelings, he or she may become overly critical and sarcastic with others. If the INTP is not able to find a place for themself which supports the use of their strongest abilities, they may become generally negative and cynical. If the INTP has not developed their Sensing side sufficiently, they may become unaware of their environment, and exhibit weakness in performing maintenance-type tasks, such as bill-paying and dressing appropriately.

For the INTP, it is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly. They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths. Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others, but the INTP is not naturally likely to tailor the truth so as to explain it in an understandable way to others. The INTP may be prone to abandoning a project once they have figured it out, moving on to the next thing. It's important that the INTP place importance on expressing their developed theories in understandable ways. In the end, an amazing discovery means nothing if you are the only person who understands it.

The INTP is usually very independent, unconventional, and original. They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity and security. They usually have complex characters, and may tend to be relstless and temperamenta. They are strongly ingenious, and have unconventional thought patterns which allows them to analyze ideas in new ways. Consequently, a lot of scientific breakthroughs in the world have been made by the INTP.

The INTP is at his best when he can work on his theories independently. When given an environment which supports his creative genius and possible eccentricity, the INTP can accomplish truly remarkable things. These are the pioneers of new thoughts in our society.



[MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION]
 

lume

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Oct 18, 2013
Messages
62
[MENTION=20043]lume[/MENTION]

Are you more of the type of person who is quick to judge, but is withholding on telling what an object is or are you quick to point out what something is, but generally has trouble deciding if it's agreeable/valuable or not.

This might not be very helpful, but if you have an answer to this question then you can narrow it down easier.

Im really quick to judge but Im withholding it, Im keeping these judgements but its quite easy to prove me wrong because I generally dont trust my judgments, altough the first impression i get from somebody is mostly right.

For example, when I think that a girl in my class is a really bitchy, talking behind peoples back type. I get these impressions really fast by looking at people. Then I get to talk to her and think that shes nice and that I was probably wrong. In the end it turns out that my first impression was right and that she is a bad person.
 
B

brainheart

Guest
So thats INFP, I marked the passages that seem to represent me, to the passages with the values; I do have my values and can become frustrated if someone doesnt go along with that, but these are usually values that are accepted and important for society.


So yes, definitely not an INFP.


This is pretty good at explaining the functions of each type.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/252-MBTI-Simulatedworlds-Profiles-for-Introverted-Types

I would also recommend reading the Lenore Thomson descriptions of the introverted types:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/291-MBTI-Lenore-Thomson-Type-Profiles

What do you think of her ISXJ descriptions (as well as the others)?
 

lume

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Oct 18, 2013
Messages
62
Oh Jung said Si doms can be raving lunatics ..not that you are...but Si is very subjective and most common MBTI interpretation of ISxJs glosses over the very internal subjective nature of Si.

Some of the things you say in this thread are EERILY like an Si dom e9 male I know. Other things that confirm Si for me is the constant feelings of deja vu (been here before) and that your thought processes go in a line, one thing just linking to the next.

Read Jung Classics in the History of Psychology, you can Google it and scroll down to the introverted sensation type...I would post it for you but I am on my phone.

I'm not sure but I don't think that I'm e9, really not. I'm always worrying, making up worst case scenarios and things a like. I also do have opinions on some things. When it comes to situations which are quite extreme I know what I want and what I don't want. I've always known that.

I typed myself 2w1sp because in the book I reas it said that these types desire to be admired most. They can have like many "different personalities" and know how to use them to get someones admiracy. They know how they should be and act to be liked and loved around certain people. So they usually have many friends that are completely different.
And it also mentioned that statement: "I don't want to have sex with you but I wan't you to want to have sex with me" that's so me when it comes to "dating"

And to add, I'm very distant and difficult to get to know, yes. But the most people who know me always say how nice, dependable, friendly and warm I am. I just got hurt so many times that I shut down and won't let anybody get close easily.
 

lume

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Oct 18, 2013
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62
I think I can throw INFP, ISTJ and ISFP out. I beliebe that I'm using Fe as second and Ti as third function. Ti as 3rd can make Fe appear cold. and there are also SiTi or NiTi loops which may desribe why I'm not really using Fe at times.
I read about ISFJ and INFJ, I would say Im one of them but it's hard ro distinguish Ni and Si.
 
B

brainheart

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Introverted Sensing

Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.


The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn't taste the same or is saltier than it usually is.

Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else.

Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience.

With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.

Introverted iNtuiting* - (Ni)


Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level.

Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us.


A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden "Aha!" or "That's it!" The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future.

Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform.

We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs.

This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal.

It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

From: http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/Cognitive-Functions/Introverted-iNtuiting.cfm
 

lume

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I relate to both, Ni and Si somehow but the INFJ description fits me well whereas the ISFJ doesn't.
 

Thalassa

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MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
I relate to both, Ni and Si somehow but the INFJ description fits me well whereas the ISFJ doesn't.

In what way, since you said you don't have any grand vision, don't understand why people get so upset about things like feminism, and mostly only care about yourself and people who you like...that sounds collectively more ISFJ.

Don't pick INFJ because it seems more glamorous, only pick it if it is correct.

You just know things, ask why or what lies beneath, and examine singular concepts from multiple frameworks?
 

AzulEyes

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MBTI Type
ENFP
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sx/so
[MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION]

I don't think you understand Si. Do you actually pay attention to the psychology of SJs, or just observe what they do with Je?

SJs, especially Si doms, continually strive to recreate the sensory reality that makes them happiest. This is extremely individual, and borders on the non sensical in some SJs, hence strange attachment to particular appearances and rituals, for their own sake.

Keirsey didn't understand SJs entirely. Partly because he didn't like them much, and partly because of his own tertiary Si as an INTP stupidly boxing SJs in to one particular culture: what he experienced himself growing up in white 20th century middle America.

Wow- that is fascinating to me. In trying to understand the ESFJ in my life. Also- Si inferior for me and my Si is so underdeveloped- it's so bad. I feel sometimes I'm out of touch with reality in the sense of my memory bank. I just have so much fun out in Ne ville- that I focus nothing on my Si- and so I literally do not remember details and situations that people bring up to me. If they describe the stuff in detail, I'll be like, "Ohhhh yeahhhh. NOW I remember. thanks." I DO have some memories that are lodged in my mind that are triggered from things. ie- when I was a kid hospitalized to get my tonsils out. I can't remember anything around that time hardly- but very vivid details of the hospital experience cuz when you are six and going under the knife- which back in the day was a whole overnight thing- it is "traumatic." Anyway- I'm rambling- but thanks. maybe I need to find a thread to poke around that is specifically on Si. :)
 

Galena

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sx/so
In what way, since you said you don't have any grand vision, don't understand why people get so upset about things like feminism, and mostly only care about yourself and people who you like...that sounds collectively more ISFJ.

Don't pick INFJ because it seems more glamorous, only pick it if it is correct.

You just know things, ask why or what lies beneath, and examine singular concepts from multiple frameworks?
With the exception of the grand vision part, what makes the listed traits Si? They sound like so instinct to me.
 

lume

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In what way, since you said you don't have any grand vision, don't understand why people get so upset about things like feminism, and mostly only care about yourself and people who you like...that sounds collectively more ISFJ.

Don't pick INFJ because it seems more glamorous, only pick it if it is correct.

You just know things, ask why or what lies beneath, and examine singular concepts from multiple frameworks?


I dont really have any grand vision, thats totally true. But when it comes to discussing issues like feminism it often confuses me how I feel about such a topic. Im just catching myself arguing on both sides, finding good arguments for both sides of an aspect and using them wheter its the right time too. (If there are more people on the pro side I will tell all my pro arguments etc) And sometimes Im even finding myself arguing for both sides at once, which is a bit crazy I think.
I think Im just trying to keep my opinion away and to argue how I think people want me to argue right now. When Im talking to my friends about issues I usually do try to stay as objective as possible. Maybe thats fear that my opinions will be rejected? Idk but thats what I do all the time. And I usually like discussing so I think I do seem a bit crazy in discussions.

And with caring about myself I mean perfectionism. I care about being perfect and good enough so much.

I dont even know if these are ISFJ or INFJ things but yeah.

Im sorry that I give so many answers in which Im just rambling, but the point is, I really cant say if Im using Ni or Si because these are processes in my perception which I cant clearly identify by myself, because theyre just there and Im just thinking the way I do without being able HOW I do this.


I do have a great memory for some situations I guess, but mostly when they were "traumatic", when I got hurt or when words hit me. These are things which are usually affecting me. I cant let go of these past experiences; I also do feel guilty a lot, even if I know theoretically that it wasnt really my fault and things alike.
I do have a vague understanding of situations which I cant explain, Im always asking into detail. A friend of mine said that my questions are always a bit weird; they are logically and good, but these are things that no one really thinks about. She couldnt find good examples but thats how she described me to another friend of her.
And I can say that teachers are sometimes a bit overwhelmed by my questions, because theyre "so complicated, and good and intelligent" and they never thought about this before.


I often get these "Ive heard, seen, been there before" experiences but I cant tell where or when most of the time, I just know Ive heard that before. So I often get these deja-vu feelings because of that.
Im also so much inside my head that its not normal anymore I think haha. It gets to the point that I cant remember faces, people, things that people told me and things a like, I just always remeber what I thought about that.
For example a teacher told us that the brains of musicians would look different from those who arent musicians. And I thought, Im also singing and playing guitar, does this affect me? Does this make me smarter? In which way does that influence me ... . A few days after someone said something that made me think about this again and I couldnt remember in which lesson and by which teacher I got told this (or if this was even in school but my parents usually dont talk about such things so it had to be someone in school)



So whats all this stuff in my head?
 

Thalassa

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I dont really have any grand vision, thats totally true. But when it comes to discussing issues like feminism it often confuses me how I feel about such a topic. Im just catching myself arguing on both sides, finding good arguments for both sides of an aspect and using them wheter its the right time too. (If there are more people on the pro side I will tell all my pro arguments etc) And sometimes Im even finding myself arguing for both sides at once, which is a bit crazy I think.
I think Im just trying to keep my opinion away and to argue how I think people want me to argue right now. When Im talking to my friends about issues I usually do try to stay as objective as possible. Maybe thats fear that my opinions will be rejected? Idk but thats what I do all the time. And I usually like discussing so I think I do seem a bit crazy in discussions.

And with caring about myself I mean perfectionism. I care about being perfect and good enough so much.

I dont even know if these are ISFJ or INFJ things but yeah.

Im sorry that I give so many answers in which Im just rambling, but the point is, I really cant say if Im using Ni or Si because these are processes in my perception which I cant clearly identify by myself, because theyre just there and Im just thinking the way I do without being able HOW I do this.


I do have a great memory for some situations I guess, but mostly when they were "traumatic", when I got hurt or when words hit me. These are things which are usually affecting me. I cant let go of these past experiences; I also do feel guilty a lot, even if I know theoretically that it wasnt really my fault and things alike.
I do have a vague understanding of situations which I cant explain, Im always asking into detail. A friend of mine said that my questions are always a bit weird; they are logically and good, but these are things that no one really thinks about. She couldnt find good examples but thats how she described me to another friend of her.
And I can say that teachers are sometimes a bit overwhelmed by my questions, because theyre "so complicated, and good and intelligent" and they never thought about this before.


I often get these "Ive heard, seen, been there before" experiences but I cant tell where or when most of the time, I just know Ive heard that before. So I often get these deja-vu feelings because of that.
Im also so much inside my head that its not normal anymore I think haha. It gets to the point that I cant remember faces, people, things that people told me and things a like, I just always remeber what I thought about that.
For example a teacher told us that the brains of musicians would look different from those who arent musicians. And I thought, Im also singing and playing guitar, does this affect me? Does this make me smarter? In which way does that influence me ... . A few days after someone said something that made me think about this again and I couldnt remember in which lesson and by which teacher I got told this (or if this was even in school but my parents usually dont talk about such things so it had to be someone in school)



So whats all this stuff in my head?

Hmmm....again you sound like my ISxJ 9 in not taking sides and trying to find middle ground. He has particularly strong morals about certain things too, bc of the one wing, it makes him have an authoritarian certainty about maybe ten things, but every thing else he says he lacks hard evidence or wants to compromise both sides. I am not pushing 9w1 on you, but please don't rule it out yet. Worry wart behavior is stressed nine disintegrating at six, and this detachment from life you describe sounds like average nine head space. Really.

Your lack of memory of details, tell me, does this apply to what you care about? Si only pays attention to the specific details they care about, all else be damned, cuz they are not Se. Me, I am Se. I remember the shapes in the wood grain in the hallway when I was a kid. Inconsequential everything. Though ofc more things I care about, like any human being.
 

lume

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I'm not sure, I even forget important details. What I always remember is what I thought about a conversation for example, I remember the things I thought, I remember how I reacted to that.
About some random conversations I can remember nearly every word. But it seems like when I'm under stress I go inside my head and then I just aren't able to remember anything because I didn't pay attention, and that's really annoying me. But I do remember important details pretty well, except I'm under a lot of stress.
 

reckful

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[MENTION=20043]lume[/MENTION] —

Thanks for your detailed reply to my last post. More follow-up on that and some of the other stuff you've posted is still on my "to do" list, but I'm in the middle of a few too many things at the moment, so there'll be some further delay.

In the meantime, though...

In the second post in this thread, [MENTION=16320]Stephano[/MENTION] told you you're "definitely not a sensor" and, although I tend to avoid words like "definitely" when I'm typing someone — and especially on MBTI dimensions where they've expressed some doubt — I continue to think it is very unlikely that you're an S. Since Polly and RisaMoccasin were both also considering S in their recent type-me threads (before coming to their, no pun intended, senses), the posts linked below include quite a bit of input from me on INs and NFs and INFs — and, if you read them, maybe some of that will help you orient yourself better with respect to your S/N preference.

This post (from Polly's thread) has three parts. The first is an "introduction to S and N" that may help nudge you to the N side. And the second and third parts have input from me and from David Keirsey on NTs and NFs.

And this post is another three-parter from Polly's thread. The first part talks about Keirsey's mistake in labeling ISFP the "Artist" type — INFs being much more likely candidates, statistically speaking — and the second part talks about NFs and "new age" beliefs.

And I just planted a long five-post series in RisaMoccasin's type-me thread (starting here), and I think you'll find (if you read it) that quite a bit of what I said there about INs and NFs and INFs (at least) applies to you — and maybe quite a bit of the INFJ stuff as well, if you're a J. She's a relatively unambiguous INFJ (IMHO), and I'd say both your F and J preferences (if that's what you have) are significantly less strong than hers, although I still have mild F and J leans for you. Since I'd already linked RisaMoccasin to those two Polly-thread posts, that later five-post series doesn't repeat the things in the Polly-thread posts.

That's a lot of stuff, and definitely don't feel any pressure to read it to the extent that you're not motivated to do so for your own purposes. But if you do read it, I'd be interested to hear about any strong "that's me" or "that's not me" reactions you might have, either to Polly's and/or RisaMoccasin's self-descriptions (as quoted in my posts) or to any of the things I say about, e.g., NFs or INFs or INFJs.

As a final note, and as long as I'm giving you links to typing input from me: Polly's a Limbic INFP (IMHO; although she's decided on ENFP for the moment) and, in case reading about RisaMoccasin's relatively strong J-ness gets you thinking maybe you're more of a P after all, you can find quite a bit of commentary from me on Limbic INFPs — including, to some extent, how they differ from INFJs — in this third post from Polly's type-me thread
 

lume

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[MENTION=20043]lume[/MENTION] —

Thanks for your detailed reply to my last post. More follow-up on that and some of the other stuff you've posted is still on my "to do" list, but I'm in the middle of a few too many things at the moment, so there'll be some further delay.

In the meantime, though...

In the second post in this thread, [MENTION=16320]Stephano[/MENTION] told you you're "definitely not a sensor" and, although I tend to avoid words like "definitely" when I'm typing someone — and especially on MBTI dimensions where they've expressed some doubt — I continue to think it is very unlikely that you're an S. Since Polly and RisaMoccasin were both also considering S in their recent type-me threads (before coming to their, no pun intended, senses), the posts linked below include quite a bit of input from me on INs and NFs and INFs — and, if you read them, maybe some of that will help you orient yourself better with respect to your S/N preference.

This post (from Polly's thread) has three parts. The first is an "introduction to S and N" that may help nudge you to the N side. And the second and third parts have input from me and from David Keirsey on NTs and NFs.

And this post is another three-parter from Polly's thread. The first part talks about Keirsey's mistake in labeling ISFP the "Artist" type — INFs being much more likely candidates, statistically speaking — and the second part talks about NFs and "new age" beliefs.

And I just planted a long five-post series in RisaMoccasin's type-me thread (starting here), and I think you'll find (if you read it) that quite a bit of what I said there about INs and NFs and INFs (at least) applies to you — and maybe quite a bit of the INFJ stuff as well, if you're a J. She's a relatively unambiguous INFJ (IMHO), and I'd say both your F and J preferences (if that's what you have) are significantly less strong than hers, although I still have mild F and J leans for you. Since I'd already linked RisaMoccasin to those two Polly-thread posts, that later five-post series doesn't repeat the things in the Polly-thread posts.

That's a lot of stuff, and definitely don't feel any pressure to read it to the extent that you're not motivated to do so for your own purposes. But if you do read it, I'd be interested to hear about any strong "that's me" or "that's not me" reactions you might have, either to Polly's and/or RisaMoccasin's self-descriptions (as quoted in my posts) or to any of the things I say about, e.g., NFs or INFs or INFJs.

As a final note, and as long as I'm giving you links to typing input from me: Polly's a Limbic INFP (IMHO; although she's decided on ENFP for the moment) and, in case reading about RisaMoccasin's relatively strong J-ness gets you thinking maybe you're more of a P after all, you can find quite a bit of commentary from me on Limbic INFPs — including, to some extent, how they differ from INFJs — in this third post from Polly's type-me thread


Thanks a lot, I will definetely read this but I dont have so much time now so Ill do it on weekends.

But I have got a question, I read a bit in the ISFJ threads and they all said that they acted very introvert as a child. When I think of my childhood I was extrovert, open, friendly, talked so much even to strangers and I never wanted to play alone. I was really into pleasing others and following all rules to be liked, I wouldve never lie and I always felt guilty. I asked a lot, I was an intelligent little girl, curious about whats going on, about deeper meanings and so on. When I think of me as a child I felt some Fe and Ni going on.
When I was 12 I broke off contact with my father because he did things to me that broke me emotionally, since that ive gone cold, distant, acted introvert etc. because I was so deeply hurt. I locked my feelings away to avoid getting hurt another time. I read that Fe is very sensitive and needs so protect itself sometimes... Now that I have my boyfriend I really begin to open up, I cant stand to sit alone in my room for having alone time anymore, I try to be sociable but I just cant anymore because Ive shut myself completely for the last years.

Could it theorethically be, that Im an natural extrovert. whos gone introvert mode or something? Because Im into this MBTI typing for 2 years now and I always assumed that Im introvert, but no introvert type really fitted me well enough I think. And on cognitive functions tests I also got some extroverted types as second types. Could I be an emotionally meddes up ENFJ or something?
 

reckful

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Thanks a lot, I will definetely read this but I dont have so much time now so Ill do it on weekends.

But I have got a question, I read a bit in the ISFJ threads and they all said that they acted very introvert as a child. When I think of my childhood I was extrovert, open, friendly, talked so much even to strangers and I never wanted to play alone. I was really into pleasing others and following all rules to be liked. ...

When I was 12 I broke off contact with my father because he did things to me that broke me emotionally, since that ive gone cold, distant, acted introvert etc. because I was so deeply hurt. I locked my feelings away to avoid getting hurt another time. ... Now that I have my boyfriend I really begin to open up, I cant stand to sit alone in my room for having alone time anymore, I try to be sociable but I just cant anymore because Ive shut myself completely for the last years.

Could it theorethically be, that Im an natural extrovert. whos gone introvert mode or something? Because Im into this MBTI typing for 2 years now and I always assumed that Im introvert, but no introvert type really fitted me well enough I think. And on cognitive functions tests I also got some extroverted types as second types. Could I be an emotionally meddes up ENFJ or something?

Although, all other things being equal, an introverted child can certainly be expected to feel/act more introverted than an extraverted child, it's also quite typical for an introverted child, growing up in an untroubled family/school environment in which she excels (and which mostly involves interaction with familiar people), to feel/act significantly more extraverted than she will as an adult. That was true for me in spades. I'm pretty strongly introverted, but was something of a class clown in my school days, and significantly more gregarious than in my adult incarnation — while at the same time being significantly less gregarious than my extraverted classmates.

And I'm a T. As far as the importance of friends and other people in somebody's life goes, T/F can play just as important a role as E/I, with EFs being the most social types, ITs being the least social types, and ETs and IFs in between. As you may already know, the types with the greatest hermit potential are the ITs, and especially male ITs. IFs are introverts, and that means they'll tend to favor social interaction that involves what's often referred to as their "inner circle," but it's not at all uncommon for IFs — and this is more true during their school years than later in life — to end up having a regular gang (or two) who they spend a lot of their free time hanging out with. And it's always important to keep in mind that, in general, the differences between introverts and extraverts tend to be substantially more pronounced when they're dealing with strangers or not-too-close acquaintances than when they're dealing with their family, friends and familiar classmates.

You scored as a "clear" introvert (20 out of 21 items) on the official MBTI, and introversion was your highest score (82%) on that Big Five test, and your posts make you sound significantly more introverted than extraverted to me. Never say never, but I'd say it's very unlikely, notwithstanding those traumatic experiences with your father, that you're really an extravert with some kind of introverted shell.
 

chubber

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As Jung saw it — as you may know if you followed [MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION]'s or [MENTION=7140]brainheart[/MENTION]'s links – Si-doms were awkward, touchy eccentrics, detached from reality, who inhabited "a mythological world, where men, animals, railways, houses, rivers, and mountains appear partly as benevolent deities and partly as malevolent demons." Not only does Jung's portrait bear little resemblance to a typical IS_J, I think anyone not inclined to treat Jung with too much reverence would have to agree that Jung's portrait bears little resemblance to any significantly numerous group of normal-range people who've ever walked the face of the earth.

In describing what he referred to as "the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type," Jung said that an Si-dom "has an illusory conception of reality," and that the relation between the actual physical world and the Si-dom's perceptions of it is "unpredictable and arbitrary." Both because of that and because, in Jung's view, the Si-dom's thinking and feeling functions "are relatively unconscious and, if conscious at all, have at their disposal only the most necessary, banal, everyday means of expression," Jung said that not only is it typical for Si-doms to be unable to really communicate their views to the world in understandable ways — an Si-dom also typically "fares no better in understanding himself."

Jung said the main hope for an Si-dom to be able to communicate his thoughts to others was through art — in which case, although others would then be able to get a better glimpse of the Si-dom's soul, it would also be "strikingly clear" how "irrational" the Si-dom's perspectives were — but, alas, Jung also noted that artistic Si-doms were the exception rather than the rule, with the result that, "as a rule, [the Si-dom] resigns himself to his isolation."

Myers, as you may know, abandoned the vast majority of Jung's strange, collective-unconscious-dominated conception of what Si involved in creating her portraits of IS_Js — based on many years of typing and gathering correlational data with respect to thousands of subjects.

Far from suffering from a "reality-alienating subjectivity" that caused their relation to the real world to be "unpredictable and arbitrary," Myers portrayed IS_Js as among the most down-to-earth and realistic of all the types. She called them the "most practical of the introvert types," and said "they have a complete, realistic, practical respect both for the facts and for whatever responsibilities these facts create. Sensing provides the facts, and after the introverts' characteristic pause for reflection, their judgment accepts the responsibilities."

Far from being uncommunicative eccentrics who more grounded and productive people would be prone to view as (in Jung's words) "the most useless of men," Myers viewed IS_Js as having the kinds of personality characteristics that tend to make them model employees in many respects. To quote the brief capsule descriptions at the myersbriggs.org website:

From what I have read here now, it seems, Jung has described (unhealthy) Si-Dom what we know today as inferior Ne. So what I'm getting at is. Meyers changed that the exception becomes inferior Ne, which is the state that the Si-dom can appear like, when in an unhealthy state. Perhaps Jung has gone further and said that, these things lurk deeper in the unconscious. Perhaps this is where he explored further with his "red book"?
 

reckful

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From what I have read here now, it seems, Jung has described (unhealthy) Si-Dom what we know today as inferior Ne. So what I'm getting at is. Meyers changed that the exception becomes inferior Ne, which is the state that the Si-dom can appear like, when in an unhealthy state. Perhaps Jung has gone further and said that, these things lurk deeper in the unconscious. Perhaps this is where he explored further with his "red book"?

One of the canards that pops up from time to time in internet forum posts is the one that says that Jung's type descriptions in Chapter 10 of Psychological Types were extreme — or "unhealthy," or otherwise unusual — portraits that wouldn't much resemble typical people of the applicable type. And really, when you think about it, WTF sense would that have made? Jung spent most of Psychological Types talking about the things he saw as common to all introverts and all extraverts. Chapter 10 is the only place where he gave us anything like in-depth descriptions of his eight functions. Why on earth would he not have described what he viewed as the more or less typical characteristics of his types?

And he did. There's certainly some inconsistency among the portraits in terms of the ratio of the more ordinary stuff and the here's-what-happens-when-they-get-neurotic stuff. But his general approach in those eight portraits is to first describe the more-or-less ordinary version of the type — which means what the type is like when the unconscious is supplying enough ordinary day-to-day "compensation" to prevent the person from becoming too "one-sided" — and then to go on to describe the neurotic version of the type that results if the unconscious functions are overly suppressed and end up wreaking havoc.

In my experience, the notion that Chapter 10 only described extreme (or otherwise unusual) versions of the types is most often encountered in the posts of Jung defenders who don't want to own up to the fact that Jung actually got quite a bit wrong in coming up with his typological concepts — and who therefore brush off some of the more cartoonish stuff in Chapter 10 by saying, oh, well, you know, Chapter 10 isn't really about what the functions are like in normal people.

The Jung passage that such defenders most often point to is this one:

Jung said:
In the foregoing descriptions I have no desire to give my readers the impression that these types occur at all frequently in such pure form in actual life. They are, as it were, only Galtonesque family portraits, which single out the common and therefore typical features, stressing them disproportionately, while the individual features are just as disproportionately effaced. Closer investigation shows with great regularity that, besides the most differentiated function, another, less differentiated function of secondary importance [— i.e., the auxiliary function —] is invariably present in consciousness and exerts a co-determining influence.

What Jung is saying in this passage is that his eight portraits are artifically "pure" portraits in the sense of leaving out the "individual features" that tend to distinguish, say, one Si-dom from another Si-dom —and, most notably, an Si-dom with a T-aux from an Si-dom with an F-aux. (It's important to remember that the sentence about the "pure form" was at the start of the paragraph where Jung introduces the reader to the auxiliary function.)

When it comes to the characteristics that derive from Si (for example), and will therefore tend to found in Si-doms generally, Jung says that his portraits concentrate on "the common and therefore typical features" of the type. So it makes no sense to claim that the features Jung described as "common" and "typical" were features he thought would only show up in rare cases. And that would also be inconsistent with some of the language Jung uses in the Si-dom portrait specifically — e.g., after noting that the artistic Si-dom is the exception rather than the norm, he says that "as a rule," an Si-dom "resigns himself to his isolation."

The term "Galtonesque family portraits" is a reference to Francis Galton, often referred to as the "father of psychometrics," and that's consistent with the idea that Jung's portraits were primarily intended to reflect the personality characteristics that were statistically the most likely to be found in people with that type.

As a final clarification with respect to the relationship between the "purity" Jung is referring to and the auxiliary function, please note that there's a big difference between saying (1) that Jung's portraits are artificially "pure" in the sense of omitting the features that would vary depending on which auxiliary function someone had, and (2) that the people Jung is describing are the "pure" people who don't have an auxiliary function. Jung makes it clear that he thought it was overwhelmingly typical to have an auxiliary function — and in fact, he went so far as to say that an auxiliary function is "invariably present in consciousness." So... there's no way Jung would have described Si characteristics that were only present in some rare no-auxiliary-function subset of Si-doms as characteristics that were the "common and therefore typical" features of the type.
 
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