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  1. #41
    Member RisaMoccasin's Avatar
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    Now I merely await more input and bump post because I don't want my topic to fall to the abyss.
    XD

  2. #42
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    The abyss! Oh noes!!!

    I want to start this five-post series by saying thank you, RisaMoccasin, for being such a good specimen.

    And by that I mean... I told you at the end of my first post that "I'm both an MBTI dweeb and a hardcore T, and I don't do long posts like this ... as selfless, other-oriented 'acts of service'." It's not that I don't get any gratification out of (potentially, at least) helping somebody learn more about the MBTI and/or what their type is. But I definitely wouldn't be participating in type-me threads if the cost/benefit analysis from my selfish perspective — in terms of my own interest in the MBTI and what I can potentially learn by trying to apply what I think I know to real-world subjects and gathering my thoughts in written form — didn't add up to a net positive for me.

    And from that perspective, you're a great subject in at least two respects. First, I really think you're a "textbook INFJ" in many ways. In four years of participating in type-me threads (mostly at INTJforum), it's been my experience that, much more often than not, the people that both start type-me threads and end up providing lots of self-description are people whose type is close to the middle or otherwise ambiguous on at least one of the MBTI dimensions. And wrestling with that middleness can be worthwhile in some ways (and it tends to make for longer type-me threads), but it's certainly a pleasure to read about a relatively unambiguous type exemplar from time to time.

    And second, you're also a great subject in terms of the sheer volume of very candid self-description you've provided in your four (so far... ) type-me threads at TC. I hereby advise any fellow MBTI dweebs who may ever read this post and be interested in immersing themselves in a lengthy self-portrait by a well-defined (so it seems to me) Limbic INFJ that RisaMoccasin has spent many hours at her keyboard and has come through for you.

    And I realize my INFJ conclusion is hardly a surprise. At the end of your last type-me thread (in February), you firmly declared:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Turns out there were HUGE CHUNKS of the ISFJ profile that I would not do and am not like, or that I don't relate to, and a few sentences that I would do/am like/do relate to. And there were huge chunks of the INFJ profile I related to, and only a few sentences I didn't relate to as much but have done or been like at some point or another in my life. ...

    If you're curious, I'm an INFJ 4w5 sx/sp. And somehow I'm glad the war is over.
    But, as we all know, an INF's search for identity never really ends... so, after a while, you started having second thoughts... and somehow the ISFP possibility crept back into the picture...

    But then you also conceded (earlier in this thread) that, when you read the most well-known profiles...

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I don't relate to INFPs at all in most descriptions, I relate to ISFPs strongly in some descriptions and I basically always relate to INFJs. (I'm taking into account both behavior/trait descriptions, function descriptions and dichotomy descriptions.)
    And then you specifically went through Keirsey's profiles of those three types and pasted the stuff you related to into the post, and it turned out you related to quite a lot of the INFP stuff (but I'd say it's pretty much all stuff that tends to fit INFPs and INFJs both), but that you related to more than twice as much of the INFJ stuff. And then you ended up pasting nothing from Keirsey's ISFP description and just noting, "I related to very little in this particular ISFP description, actually."

    What follows are some more specific reactions to things you've posted in this and your three other type-me threads. As I've said (and as you know), you've posted a tremendous amount, so this is necessarily just a sample of the things that struck me as potentially relevant to your type. And, more specifically, I've pretty much ignored the stuff that mostly just speaks to your I and F preferences, since it sounds like you (understandably) don't really have any doubt about those two.

  3. #43
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    [2 of 5]

    Like your I and F preferences, I'd say there's also little doubt that you're Limbic — your most pronounced score on that Big Five test — and that that plays a significant role in terms of the emotional sensitivity, anxiety-proneness and short temper that you describe in posts like these:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I'm also very sensitive. I don't come across as sensitive at all. ... But I cry a lot at home when I'm alone in my room and no one can hear me if I ever get criticized or insulted. I have a pretty bad temper that I keep hidden, too, but sometimes I blow my top off.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I also, while I wouldn't change having a depth of emotion, wish I could change what TRIGGERS it because I get SO upset over stupid things all the time, all day every day.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I think very intensely and I feel very intensely. I. Feel. Everything. Absolutely everything. I don't think I can even tell you enough, I FEEL EVERYTHING. ...

    When I feel emotions, I feel them from the very deep of my core. If you took a key and opened me up like a box, you would not find any single half-hearted feeling. They are all very intense, and very real, and I feel every single emotion physically. ... And when I get [very] stressed and ... emotional, I subconsciously get so caught up in it that I lash out at other people, sometimes hurting people I love dearly. (Which I, right afterwards, get an intense feeling of guilt and regret, which only makes me feel worse.)
    Self-consciousness is also a characteristic associated with being Limbic. Here's you:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I usually act like I'm not into the unusual things that I'm into. ... I don't mention a lot of the things that run through my head, any of my feelings, or act as hyper and giggly as I actually am because I feel like I'll get judged. I also feel really uncomfortable doing things like wearing the clothes I want to wear or asking to get my hair cut the way I want it cut and I don't really know why.
    ================================

    On S/N, as @ScottJames noted in one of your other threads, the fact that your boyfriend — who you describe as the one person who really "knows who you are" — is an N, combined with the fact that your other close friends are all N's, is definitely worth some N points.

    In that same thread, you explained:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Nobody ever really understands what I try to verbalize except for my INTP boyfriend, and he's the only person who really truly knows everything that goes on in my head. My INFJ and ENFJ friends know me very well, too, but not quite as well. Sometimes I feel not understood by them, but more understood by them than the majority of the people I know.
    And, by contrast:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    My ESTJ mom, as I've mentioned before as well, doesn't understand me at all.
    Of course, it's pretty standard for people to feel better understood by their closest friends than by one or both parents, but you seem to suggest (and understand) that your ESTJ mother is different from you in ways that partly reflect your very different MBTI types.

    And it's worth noting that, more generally, I'd say the types most likely to feel majorly alienated from mainstream culture and most of their peers are the INs, and I think it's possible this has virtually always been the case. Jung was an IN (and Limbic, to boot), and he certainly felt alienated from the majority. As far as he was concerned, the ES's were clearly running the show (and running it badly) — and had been for many generations.

    Here's another point you made about your interactions with S's:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I recently read something somewhere or another that I keep wanting to mention and continue to forget. It said that ISFJs tend to prefer small talk and don't like deep conversations whereas INFJs prefer deep conversations over small talk. In this case I think I'd be an INFJ because I love to talk in depth about deep subjects and whenever I'm with S-users they always backtrack the conversation to something else when I try to push deeper on a subject, like they feel uncomfortable going so deep, while I try to keep talking about that one thing.
    Depending on how you spin it, and depending on the S, an S may well beg to differ when an N characterizes typical S conversations as shallow or superficial, but — however accurate or inaccurate or biased or whatever anybody might think such a characterization might be — there's really no question that, in any case, it's pretty common for N's to describe their interactions with S's (or at least some S's) in those kinds of terms. So, accuracy aside, the fact that this is how you're inclined to describe what happens "whenever I'm with S-users" is another pretty good indicator that you're an N.

    In the spoiler is a slightly tweaked recycle of something I posted at another forum about INs. I really think we're your peeps.


    Here's more of the voice of the alienated IN:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I don't understand a lot of the things that my age group (I'm 14) does. In fact, I can't understand a lot of things that people do. It doesn't make those things bad, I just... can't understand them. Laughing over stupid pictures, cackling, being concerned with whether your false eyelashes are the right size or not, having seven boyfriends in one year, petty high school drama and middle school minds, or immature adults. I just... I don't get it. Again, it's not necessarily bad, I just can't understand it at all. That's why with a lot of people I don't talk very much. ... I don't understand how people could waste time laughing over stupid pictures or stabbing their best friends in the back or how people could not take other people, or life, seriously. We don't have that much time in this world so why the freaking hell are you wasting it?
    As part of your response to "Describe your relationship to socialization," you noted, "I've been made fun of and ridiculed for my more imaginative traits and my love of books and anime, etc." — and that's a much more common fate for an IN than for a more down-to-earth IS.

    In your last type-me thread, you went through an Ni description and bolded the stuff that you related to. It included this:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Independence of Mind: Ni dominants confidently trust their intuitions, insights, ideas, and inspirations - often no matter what others say. Their thoughts become part of who they are, and they are completely independent of the world they live in. Ni dominants are the most independent minded of all other types, the insights they pick up on in their lives are completely original and subjective. For this reason, many Ni dominants feel like aliens, as if they perceive a completely different reality from everyone else.
    As between a typical ISFJ and a typical INFJ, I'd say the INFJ is much more likely to strongly relate to being described as among "the most independent minded" people, and to say they "feel like aliens, as if they perceive a completely different reality from everyone else."

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    12. What are most of the ideas/thoughts you get generally centered around?

    This is another tough one. When I think, it's so deep that I don't even know what I'm thinking about half the time if someone asks me. Well, I know, but I have no clue how to articulate it.

    Lots of times I'm really poetic. I tend to think about people and their emotions a lot, and I kind of theorize a lot. It's not really logical though, it's more of about the nature of people--how we're so wonderfully broken and complete all at once, and all the different things that split us up into different pieces or can repair us. That kind of thing. I'm really not sure how to answer this question, it's so difficult to put my thoughts into words.
    That sounds significantly more like an INF talking than an ISF talking.

    And I'd say this next quote (from you), in particular, is quintessentially INF:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I honestly can't understand why people can't all just be best friends and tolerate and respect each other and be kind and loving and help one another. I, personally, almost like the "different", "weird" or "unique" kids better. In fact, take out that almost, I do like them better. Everyone is wonderful and everything has something amazing about them (and something not so amazing about them), but the people that I can relate to and speak with the easiest are the "strange" ones. I like unique people. Usually they have depth to them that people who follow the crowd don't.
    In four years of type-me exercises, I've found that it's especially common for INFs to have a streak that seems to draw them to society's misfits/outcasts/outsiders — including working with people with physical disabilities (e.g., the deaf community), in addition to people whose differences are more psychological.

    ================================

    In the post where I put a lot of J/P input in the spoiler, I told you I'd be "curious to hear if, with respect to quite a few of the J/P aspects I describe, you not only see yourself as more on the J side but also see your INTP boyfriend as more on the P side." And you replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    lol I'm such a J and he's such a P. I don't even have to offer you proof with how much that fit, we just are.
    And it's true! (Well, at least the J part on your side. I don't know that much about your boyfriend.) Besides the fact that you came out J (with non-borderline scores) on both the official MBTI and that Big Five test, your posts have lots of typical J stuff, sometimes in fairly emphatic form. You describe your "obsessive punctuality," your obsession with your perfect (or, alas, occasionally only near-perfect) attendance records, and your tendency to "get anal [and] obsessive" and "exhibit almost OCD behavior" when you're making preparations for an important event.

    You say:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    [I] go to dance when I'm sick, because I don't want to ruin my perfect attendance record. I feel like I'm being immature, irresponsible, or letting people down if I just slack off or don't do something I'm supposed to do. ...

    I have escape, self-defense and hiding plans for every section/room of the house in case someone will break in, and I basically have my whole life mapped out.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I have an almost perfect track record, too. I've only missed 4 dance classes in 4 years (I have 10 a week on average) and that was when I was so sick I couldn't get out of bed without getting dizzy. (People were actually texting me asking me if I died in a car crash because they're certain even if that happened my ghost would be there. xD)
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    This is how getting ready for events goes:

    I make a list of everything I need to take with me the night before, set 10 alarms ranging from 3 hours before I have to be there to 2 and a half hours before I have to be there, make sure everything about my appearance is perfect, quadruple check that I have everything, and get to the event 20 minutes early minimum (and still feel like I'm late.)
    You almost make me feel like a P by comparison!

    In one of those "alienated-IN" things I already quoted, you noted how baffled you were that so many people didn't take life seriously, and that's a refrain that runs through a number of your posts and, as among the N types, I think of that as very characteristically INFJ.

    As Lenore Thomson notes in Personality Type, J/P pairings are a familiar cultural theme. As between you and your INTP boyfriend, would you say you're the more serious one, while he's more on the playful/jokey side? You posted a video in your second type-me thread but have since taken it down, so I've never seen it. Would I be correct in guessing that you were pretty consistently earnest in that video? If your boyfriend made a similar kind of video, do you think it's likely he'd do more playful joking around in his than you did in yours?

    And I'm certainly not meaning to suggest that INFJs don't often joke around, or that you don't often joke around. But I think it's fair to say that an INFJ doing something (or talking about something) that they view as a serious matter is substantially more likely to do it with a matching serious/earnest tone than an INFP with a significantly stronger gut tug in the playful direction.

    Here's some more of you:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I don't think I'm better than [all those people my age who I can't understand] -- not at all, I have a very very very very very far way to go as a person. But I take life very seriously. I take commitments very seriously, deadlines very seriously, my hobbies very seriously. I am a perfectionist to the extreme. And I can't choose that. I wish I wasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I often appear lighthearted on the outside, or like a mature, lighthearted person, but I'm very serious (and often dramatic) when people get to know me well, and even more so on the inside.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I always take other people seriously unless it's really, really obvious that they're joking about something. People often laugh at me and say "You thought I was serious?", then I feel really embarrassed and creep back into my turtle shell.
    ^ That's a more characteristic kind of error for an earnest INFJ to make than a more playful INFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    6. What in life do you find to be of importance?
    I find taking life seriously and treating everything special as special as it is is a big thing for me. This translates into chastity (I asked my parents for a purity ring when I was 12), for example. Kindness, humility (I need to work on that one), strength (of mind, not body), love, and faith are all big ones, too. Anything along the lines of those.
    You say you "need to work on" your humility, and I'd say there's no question that, as between INFJs and INFPs, the INFJs are more prone toward arrogance — although I'd also say that the average INFP isn't very likely to be modest the way an ISFP (who Myers characterized as the most modest of the types) is typically modest.

    The personalitypage portrait notes that an INFJ's tendency to "trust their own instincts ... may result in an INFJ stubbornness and tendency to ignore other people's opinions. They believe that they're right." And you commented:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I do tend to do what it mentions in there somewhere about 'becoming so set in thinking they're right that they block out other opinions.'
    You've also noted...

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    My judgments and opinions usually start as very rigid, clear-lined and no-nonsense, but the more I hear a different opinion the looser they get, until I finally become open to hearing other opinions.
    ... and the fact that you "finally become open to hearing other opinions" isn't a P indicator. Nobody (and especially none of the N types) is incapable of ever considering opposing opinions. Instead, the fact that your default mode is for your "judgments and opinions" to "start as very rigid, clear-lined and no-nonsense" is a pretty strong J indicator.

    Having "stubborn" and/or "bossy" be on somebody's self-descriptive short list is definitely worth a couple J points. EJs are the bossiest types — one of the reasons ES_Js (especially) tend to get a lot of grief in which-type-drives-you-nuts threads — but, under the right circumstances, an IJ is significantly more likely than an IP to really get her boss on. And you've confessed:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I have a hard time with not being stubborn, so I may not admit that I was wrong if I realized that I was, but I wouldn't be stubborn to the point of stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I do get really, really bossy a lot, though, like when my INFJ friend stops paying attention to talking about things I don't want her to talk about when there are other people around, I'll be like "SHUT UP!" And when she talks in dance classes I'll just glare and go "SHHH!" I've been told to stop being bossy a lot by her >>) I get bossy more than I get critical of inconsistencies and what have you. ... I can recall four times the last year I was told to stop being bossy. XD
    Describing yourself as a child, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    [As a child] I was very obedient and got bossy if others didn't follow the rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I was a very obedient child. I was very much myself, and very creative, and thought of many things that shocked adults and made them call me precocious, but because of my maturity beyond my years I followed rules easily and often tried to remind others to follow them. Adults thoroughly enjoyed my company because I was a bright kid and other kids usually hated my company because I was a 'bossy know it all'.
    I already (in my earlier J/P spoiler) told you I thought NJs were the types most likely to come across as know-it-alls. The combination here of you being "very obedient" (not to mention reminding others to follow the rules) and being better liked by the adults than your fellow kids because you were a "bossy know it all" pretty much screams J.

    Here's another post worth a J point or two:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I tend not to talk about [things I'm in the middle of learning about] or to talk about my opinions on them ... until I've completed them completely, because I feel insecure about my information, conclusions and descriptions if I do.
    NPs, as you may know, are known for their tendency to like to "brainstorm" — i.e., to bounce new, half-formed, incompletely-thought-through ideas and opinions off others and use the resulting conversation as part of the process of figuring things out. But J's, as Myers noted, "aim to be right" — and NJs, as I already noted, have a tendency to come off as "know it alls," partly because, when they talk, they have something of a default tendency to state it with a "let me explain this to you" or "this is the way it is" tone, rather than the kind of "well, here's my view" or "what do you think of this" tone you'd be more likely to hear from an NP. I suspect you wouldn't feel so "insecure" about talking about your "opinions" on things before you've "completed them" if your default way of talking about them felt (and sounded) more tentative — making it less mortifying if one of your "opinions" turned out to need some adjustments.

    That J/P spoiler of mine also noted that the association of J and P with order and chaos goes all the way back to Jung, who said P-doms "find fulfilment in ... the flux of events" and are "attuned to the absolutely contingent," while J-doms seek to "coerce the untidiness and fortuitousness of life into a definite pattern." Myers said J's like to "live according to plans, standards, and customs not easily or lightly set aside, to which the situation of the moment must, if possible, be made to conform," and "depend upon reasoned judgments ... to protect them from unnecessary or undesirable experiences"; while P's like to "live according to the situation of the moment, ... adjust themselves easily to the accidental and the unexpected," and "depend on their readiness for anything and everything to bring them a constant flow of new experience."

    And here's you:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    13. Describe your relationship to order and chaos. What do order and chaos mean to you? How do they manifest in your daily life?
    I like order, but it takes too much work to attain/maintain it. I hate chaos, it makes me feel sick and anxious and jumpy.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Although I believe everyone is unique and no one should be 100% labelled, I find comfort in having loose-fitting labels, because it makes something seem more easily understandable and less of the dangerous, great unknown.
    I'd say the "dangerous, great unknown" has a notable J flavor to it. It's what you might call the hobbits' attitude to the unfamiliar, right? The more adventurous P's are more likely to view the mystery of the "great unknown" as an enticing invitation to adventure, while the thought of having adventures in the great unknown is more likely to make a hobbit feel "sick and anxious and jumpy."

  4. #44
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Before I get back to quoting, one thing worth emphasizing is that the simple fact that you're at a personality-themed forum and obsessed (let's face it, eh?) with figuring out your "personality type" is a pretty strong INF-over-ISF indicator all by itself. At PersonalityCafe, the membership is 86% N and, as previously noted, if you look at this post, you'll see a roundup of type percentages for TypologyCentral's members which include:

    INFP 17
    INFJ 16
    ISFP 3
    ISFJ 1

    My RL experience has been that the S's in my life who I talk to about the MBTI are rarely interested in the subject of "personality types" and, from what I read, that experience is typical of everyone from fellow MBTI dweebs to professional typing practitioners.

    You've waffled between Enneagram 4w5 and 4w3 but said you're pretty sure about the 4 — "I just feel a 'calling' to type 4. It seems like it just IS me, despite how well others may fit." — and, as you know, a core interest in identity/personality really goes to the heart of Enneagram 4. And choosing Enneagram 4 is the most common for MBTI INFs, and a lot less common for ISFs — and that's especially true if you don't count the E4 "ISFs" you sometimes encounter on internet forums who admit that they're N's rather than S's if they go by typical MBTI descriptions of the S/N dichotomy.

    An interest in psychological matters of all kinds is much more characterisic of N's than S's, and is most characteristic of NF's. And besides your interest in self-discovery, you've also posted about your core drive to help people in terms of a counseling role, and your possible interest in psychology as a career.

    Appendix D to the Second Edition of the MBTI Manual includes lists of occupations "empirically attractive ... to the sixteen types," based on the CAPT MBTI data bank, and I've put the top 30 occupational categories for NFs, SFs, INFJs and ISFJs in the spoiler and bolded the entries that involve a significant psychological, social science or counseling component. (And while I was at it, I italicized the entries that involve writing or the arts.)


    And hand in hand with your drive to understand others and yourself, you also feel a strong desire to be understood by others, and a tendency to feel wounded when you're misunderstood — another characteristic that it's fair to call NF-ish, but that I think you're more likely to find in its more intense forms in INFs (and Enneagram 4's).

    Here's you:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I have a lot of depth to me. I have this person, tucked away, very deeply inside of me, who I will call Inner Me. Inner Me is dying to get out. Inner Me wants to be seen and understood and loved, and there is only one person who has seen and understood Inner Me without even being told she is there--that would be INTP Boyfriend. And the people who Inner Me tries to show herself to and say "There is more to me than the Outer Me you see", they shake her off. They think they know her. But they don't. Only INTP Boyfriend does.
    ...
    So when those things that Inner Me expresses herself via get shot down ... or only gets short replies, ... she becomes very deeply scarred and hurt. And then, from that person, she will draw away and think "This person will never understand me. This person doesn't think I'm worth understanding." until that person proves her otherwise. And that especially sucks because I want so badly to be understood by people and loved for who I really am on the inside and praised for who I really am on the inside and not the person they think I am or what they want me to be.
    Your last type-me thread included a questionnaire post where one of the questions said, "Please describe yourself as a person if you were to introduce yourself to someone else like in a cover letter.," And these were the first two sentences of your letter:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Dear ___,
    I don't know where to begin, really, on describing myself, but I would like for you to understand me. That's one of the key components of me: I want to understand other people and to be understood, in turn, by other people.
    And as far as the arts go... One of the Polly-thread posts I already linked you to talks about the strong correlation between a core interest in being a creative artist (and maybe especially a verbal artist) and an N preference (and especially the NF combination); and I italicized the art-related occupations in those CAPT database lists above to make it easy to see the relatively stark difference between NFs and SFs (and INFJs and ISFJs) in that regard.

    So, needless to say, if you ask somebody what their main interests are and they tell you they love psychology and the arts, the odds that you're dealing with an NF (and especially an INF) are high. Here's you:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I go back and forth CONSTANTLY from choosing a future career in dance, a future career in art, and a future career in psychology.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    What activities energize you most?
    Writing, performing, art, and talking to a handful of people who understand me well. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    [As a child] I loved stories. Loved them. I used to write stories all the time, tried writing novels that I always abandoned (though at the current date I have completed 3 novels, have my 4th planned out, and have edited 2 novels of mine thoroughly).
    Is it impossible that an ISF would have written three novels by age 15? No, but it's much more characteristic of an INF.

    ================================

    In one of your other type-me threads, you quoted personalitypage's comment that INFJs "are very sensitive to conflict, and cannot tolerate it very well. ... They may tend to internalize conflict into their bodies, and experience health problems when under a lot of stress." Kroeger & Thuesen say that "the biggest bane of the INFJ's work is conflict and tense interpersonal relationships." Keirsey notes that INFJs "find conflict disagreeable and destructive," and also says they're "crushed by too much criticism and can have their feelings hurt rather easily. ... If they are subject to a hostile, unfriendly working condition or to constant criticism, they tend to lose confidence, become unhappy and immobilized, and finally become physically ill."

    @ScottJames has told you:

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottJames View Post
    Fi is typically more robust and, in a way, less sensitive to how other people feel than Fe. Fi can be more defiant, whereas in situations that produce negative reactions in people, especially in groups can be very stressful to Fe - because they take on those feelings internally.
    As you know, I'm not big on the Fe/Fi "functions" framing, but I think there's something to the idea that, although INFs of both kinds would much prefer harmony, as between INFPs and INFJs, and all other things being equal, the INFJ is the one more likely to be strongly uncomfortable with conflict and/or a me-against-the-world kind of defiance — none of which means that an INFJ can't be a passionate (not to mention ill-tempered) proponent of a value she feels strongly about in the face of something she finds unacceptably wrong.

    One of the first things you said in your first type-me thread was:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I hate conflict. With a passion. I feel ill when I listen to people argue.
    And you've also noted:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Anything even slightly stressful just drives me over the edge and I freak out at everyone for everything. (I have literally gone to my room to cry because my mom corrected me while I was making cookies before.) Then I immediately feel bad about making everyone else feel bad or freaking out on someone and get angry at myself, then the whole thing loops. I'm a really busy person and I almost constantly have tense, tight, sore shoulders, stabbing stomachaches and painful headaches.
    ================================

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    What are some of your most important values?
    Um, I don't really know what my biggest value is overall or what order my values come in, but I think among my tops are probably... My love and compassion for other people and how much I love helping them, probably, along with my faith (in God mostly, sorry if that offends anyone...) I would say some other strong values in my head and heart, or things that I feel weird about if I cross or if others across, are truth, authenticity, and... Maybe chastity, but I don't think that's as high-ranking as the others XD (I do have a chastity/purity ring that I wear every day and am intending to keep my promise, so...).
    Although any type can be religious, some types are more likely to be religious than others, and I'd say there are also significant differences among the types in terms of the kinds of religious beliefs and attitudes they're likely to exhibit. As you undoubtedly know, although a large majority of Americans will tell a pollster that they're "religious" to one degree or other, the subset of people for whom religion really plays a large role in terms of their sense of who they are and the values they live by is a considerably smaller group, and your post puts your faith near the top of your "most important values" list.

    The statistics in the MBTI Manual suggest that the MBTI preference with the strongest correlation with religion (both religious interests and religious occupations) is F. And if you look at just religious occupations, there's also a pretty strong J correlation, and a milder N correlation.

    So, overall, an NFJ is arguably the most likely candidate to view their religious beliefs as a core element of their lives. I think NTs are arguably the most likely MBTI sub-group to be atheists or agnostics, and the results of MBTI/religion threads at INTJforum certainly seem consistent with that idea. I think it's fair to say that the majority view among MBTI theorists is that NTs are the types least likely to accept any "truth" on the basis of some "authority," and that's just one of the reasons I'd expect NTs — especially in any society where there's any significant cultural pressure to be religious — to be the most likely to be unapologetically non-religious. And my sense is that NTs are probably also the types who, if they are religious, are least likely to end up with a firm, committed devotion to one particular organized religion — as opposed to a more general/amorphous/spiritual kind of religious philosophy.

    And I'd say an INFP is significantly more likely than an INT to be religious, but also that, all other things being equal, an INFP's spirituality (like an INT's) is less likely than an INFJ's to involve subscribing to one particular organized religion. (As I discuss in one of those posts I linked you to in Polly's type-me thread, I think NFPs are the types most likely to subscribe to new-agey spiritual beliefs.) That list of the top 30 occupational categories for INFJs had four religious entries — and they included Nos. 1 and 3, and all four were in the top 12. By contrast, the INFPs' top 30 only has one religious entry ("Religion: Educator, all denominations"), at No. 7. The broad category of "RELIGIOUS WORKERS, ALL DENOMINATIONS" is No. 12 on the INFJ list and No. 90 on the INFP list. So INFPs are slightly more likely than the average type to have religious occupations, but INFJs are the quintessential religious workers. (ENFJs are the runners-up.)

    So... to the extent that you view your religion as a core aspect of who you are and/or what your values are, I'd say that's first and foremost worth some F points but secondarily worth a J point; and, to the extent that your religious beliefs involve subscribing relatively straightforwardly to a particular organized religion (by which I don't mean agreeing with that church's position on every issue), I'd view that as worth another point on the INFJ-over-INFP side.

    And I'd say the chastity thing is also worth a J point or two. If it has its roots in your religion — well, as I said (and as you know), a pretty large percentage of people who'll tell a pollster they're "religious" are also people who really wouldn't be inclined to look to their religion for guidance on their sex lives. And regardless of whether it's partly religion-based or not, I think it's also fair to say that, when it comes to the likelihood that someone will be relatively open to the idea of sex outside the context of a permanent, committed relationship, the average INFP is significantly more likely to be sexually free (or even what someone might call adventurous) than the average INFJ — and, in fact, I'd say NFPs are probably the types best characterized as quintessentially "bohemian" in their cultural attitudes and lifestyles.

    And it's also worth noting that the effect of probabilities is often substantially more dramatic at the ends of the scale than near the middle. As one example: as I understand it, the chess-playing ability of the average woman is not dramatically different than the chess-playing ability of the average man — but if you look at the end-of-the-spectrum subgroup of chess grand masters, it's a group that's very heavily male-dominated. Similarly, as I understand it, the IQ of the average N is not all that much higher than the IQ of the average S — but if you look at the end-of-the-spectrum subgroup of people with genius IQs, you're talking about a very N-dominated group.

    So, although there's no question that any particular INFJ or INFP might be either above or below average in terms of the liberalness of their attitudes toward sex outside some kind of committed relationship, the fact that your attitude — chastity until marriage — puts you in a small minority near the end of the spectrum is unquestionably worth more J points than if your attitude was more conservative than average but substantially closer to the middle of the spectrum.

    Of course, someone trying to make the case that you were an ISFJ could certainly assert that an SJ was (at least arguably) the most likely type to wear a chastity ring, and I wouldn't disagree with that — but, just as the J/P difference makes an SJ more likely to take a vow of chastity than an SP, I'd argue that an NJ is also significantly more likely to be found wearing a chastity ring than an NP.

  5. #45
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    [4 of 5]

    Your core drive to "help others" runs through many of your posts. Besides the one I just quoted (at the end of the last post), here are a few more:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else?
    I think that my biggest trait that's different from other people's is how much I'm obsessed with helping people and how open-minded I am and how loyal I usually am to my close friends and boyfriend.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    one of my goals is to help people. Not really in a day-to-day "let me get the laundry done for you", "wash the dishes", "cook you food", "get you medicine" (though I love doing this for people I'm close with when they're sick or very busy), I mean more of mentally and emotionally. I love playing counselor and therapist. I love holding my friends when they're crying. It's just something I like.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    4. What kind of person would you LIKE to be?
    I want to be the kind of person who inspires others. I want to help them along in their life journey and watch them thrive and grow.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    What is it that you desire in life? What do you strive to achieve?
    I desire to help people psychologically and emotionally, and to watch them thrive. I want to start an organization with my boyfriend, similar to TWLOHA, that caters to these needs. I'm not sure where they come from, I just know that I have to do it and that I'm one of the best people for the job at the present moment in time.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I give and give and give until I wear myself thin, having no more to give, but then I still give even more. I give oceans to people who wouldn't cross puddles for me simply because I feel bad not helping them, despite the fact that I know they don't deserve my help. It's actually a really unhealthy trait because I've given to the point that I had nothing left for myself anymore and became very unhealthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I guess you could say I'm very humanitarian. One of the things I'm fascinated with is the Golden Gate Bridge. I really want to move to San Fransisco at some point in the distant future and spend all my free time sitting at the Golden Gate Bridge. Even though I know the chances of me being able to talk someone out of suicide there are probably pretty slim I would at least like to try.
    As I understand it, when it comes to the service-to-others side of things, the average INFJ is liable to have a somewhat stronger streak along those lines than the average INFP, and that's consistent with the fact that INFJ is the N type closest to ISFJ, and that ISFJ is the type typically said to have the strongest service-to-others streak — to the point, not uncommonly, of being nice-to-a-fault and letting others take advantage of their good nature.

    As already noted (by way of MBTI career statistics), careers involving counseling — either as psychologists or clergy — are quintessential NF choices, so I'd say your psychologist/counselor streak is best viewed as, first and foremost, a pretty strong NF indicator. But, that said, I also think that the emphasis that you place, in so many of your posts, on your very strong — and somewhat self-sacrificing — core drive to help others vibes significantly more INFJ than INFP.

    Keirsey notes that INFJs have an "unusually strong drive to contribute to the welfare of others and genuinely enjoy helping their fellow men," and that they "often ... opt for occupations which involve interacting with people, but on a one to one basis. For example, the general practitioner in medicine might be an INFJ, or the psychiatrist or psychologist. As with all NF's, the ministry holds attraction, although the INFJ must develop an extraverted role here which requires a great deal of energy." He further notes that "INFJs make outstanding individual therapists ... [and] may choose counseling, clinical psychology, or psychiatry, or may choose to teach in these fields. ... Whatever their choice, they generally are successful in these fields because their great personal warmth, their enthusiasm, their insight, their depth of concentrations, their originality, and their organizational skills can all be brought into play."

    Hirsh and Kummerow explain: "INFJs prefer occupations that focus on the big picture ... and lead to a better understanding of the spiritual, emotional, or future needs of people. They want their work to have impact and meaning and for it to bring them admiration and respect. ¶ While INFJs can and do enter all occupations, some are more appealing to them than others. These include clergy, education consultant, English teacher, fine arts teacher, librarian, psychiatrist, psychologist, scientist, social worker, and other occupations that allow INFJs an opportunity to make their own creative contribution."

    Here's the opening paragraph of Berens and Nardi's INFJ portrait: "For [INFJs,] life is a process of never-ending personal growth, their own and others'. If something does not produce personal growth, then it is not truly worthwhile. If it does, then it is indeed worth all the effort it takes to make that growth happen. They enjoy problem solving in ways that sustain the vision they have of what can be and who we can become. They devote their lives to honoring the gifts of others, helping them to see what those gifts are and to find a way to develop those gifts."

    ================================

    The MBTI Manual says INFJs "have a gift for intuitively understanding ... human relationships. They have faith in their insights and find that they often empathically understand the feelings and motivations of people before the others themselves are aware of them."

    Keirsey says INFJs "have strong empathic abilities and can be aware of another's emotions or intents even before that person is conscious of these. This can take the form of feeling the distress of illnesses of others to an extent which is difficult for other types. INFJs can intuit good and evil in others, although they seldom can tell how they came to know. Subsequent events tend to bear them out, however."

    Berens & Nardi's "Snapshot" of INFJs says they "use their insights to deal with complexity in issues and people, often with a strong sense of 'knowing' before others know themselves."

    And you've said:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?
    I usually listen to them because when I get them I'm normally right. Normally I have a really good perception on what type of person someone is upon meeting them. ... And usually if I'm talking to a friend, even if they act perfectly normal I sort of just know that they're upset. The hunches and gut feelings on people are usually dead-on and I get them really often, probably at least once or twice a day if not more.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I have this natural instinct for if my friends are hurting and I always know the exact right time to bring something up. I also have random people I see in a crowd where I immediately become drawn and attracted to them, such as 'I can tell this person is a very kind person and I want to get to know them and become their best friend for all of life!' That also goes the reverse way--I can look at someone and go 'I feel uncomfortable around this person. There must be a reason for that.' and then I start avoiding being alone with them. So far, my instinct has proved right on people every time but once.
    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I love other people, yet I also hate them. I love studying the human condition. ...
    I often have intuitions about other people that I can't quite explain. They mostly come in forms of, "I really want to talk to this person", or "I should stay away from this person". Sometimes I immediately know what to say to make situations feel better, and sometimes I immediately can guess what's wrong, or why they did a certain thing. It's sort of like a sixth sense.
    On the loving people and hating people thing... I think I've done more MBTI forum posts (mostly at INTJforum) about T/F than about any other subject, and one of the things I've posted about is the tendency of F's to be "people raters" — and, perhaps, for FJs to be the consummate producers of negative ratings — and I've put a tweaked version of part of one of my old posts in the next spoiler.


    Anyway, as a final note on the love/hate side of things, I couldn't help chuckling when I noted that one of the posts in your last type-me thread found you describing your passionate sense of loyalty to a good friend like this...

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I will ... take a chainsaw to the face of anyone who hurts you, regardless of who's in the wrong.
    ...while also explaining...

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I don't want to hurt other people, ever. No matter who they are. I would rather help someone who abused me for years and years than say a mean word to a murderer. I just cannot do it. (This, however, only covers being mean, not being defensive....)
    Multiple internet forum encounters have led me to think of a special love for movies like Braveheart as a quintessential NFJ thing. Here's part of a post I made in a male INFJ's type-me thread (at INTJforum) a few months ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by reckful
    If there's an MBTI type most likely to cherish movies like Braveheart, I'd say it's the NFJ. There seems to be something about the combination of NF with J that leads people to particularly love stories where powerful evildoers finally get their (often violent) comeuppance at the hands of the noble, oppressed little guys and justice is served ... [and] it sounds to me like you've got a fairly strong streak that corresponds to that special hate that it seems to me that NFJs (and perhaps INFJs especially) are prone to have in the face of some powerful person or group inflicting oppression/injustice/etc. on some underdog or disadvantaged group, and that special calling to nobly stand up for the oppressed and fight the oppression.
    In one of your other type-me threads, you did a long post where you described what you called "Inner Me" — and here are the first six sentences of your description:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I absolutely hate injustice. I don't understand it. At all. It makes me very, very angry. I want to do something about it, I want to stop it, I want to befriend the underdog.
    And I've already quoted your description of the special fondness you tend to have for people who the majority considers "weird" or "strange."

    ================================

    Here's another decent INFJ indicator, IMHO:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    12. Describe your relationship to authority. How do you perceive authority? What does it mean to you, and how do you deal with it?
    Authoritative figures should be respected even if you don't particularly like or agree with them. I tend to just do what they say. If I don't like them, I'll rant to my friends or my mom about that person while they're not around, but politely. ... If I really don't agree with them, I might make a side comment disguised as a joke/compliment that they'll never figure out was actually a snide comment about them, because I'm too afraid of ruining what they think of me, of humiliating them in front of other people, and of hurting their feelings.
    I've already talked about the tendency of INs to feel alienated from, and somewhat define themselves in opposition to, ES mainstream culture, and it's typical for all four of the IN types, when they're in high school, to chafe at the SJ authority figures they often encounter among their teachers and the school administrators — although, unlike the SPs, who have their own kinds of authority problems and are the most likely dropouts, INs tend to be good students. As among the four IN types, though, I don't think there's any question that the INFJs are the most naturally respectful — and the least inclined to be punkish/rebellious. Your statement that authority figures "should be respected even if you don't particularly like or agree with them" is something you're significantly less likely to hear from an INFP than from an INFJ.

    Here you are again:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    One of my friends (she believes she's an INFJ) has a complete lack of respect for authority, and it really annoys me because she goes out of her way to be rebellious and 'different'. It wouldn't bother me if she was just naturally that way, but she acts that way on purpose to defy the system, and for that reason alone. She wants to dye her hair purple just to make people at her school mad. She got a cartilage piercing only because her mom didn't want her to. She identifies as LGBTQ ONLY because it makes her feel rebellious, not because she actually is a part of that community, and other similar things. It really agitates me because I don't understand why she just can't be herself, and it seems disrespectful to everyone and to herself that she would act that way only for the reasons she does. It's something I can't understand because going along with rules (as long as they aren't absurd) and following the system is a necessary part of excelling and for society to be orderly.
    That sounds like a classic INFJ/INFP clash to me, so I'm not surprised to hear you say "she believes she's an INFJ" — assuming you were meaning to imply some skepticism on your part. And, I mean, it could be an SJ/INFP clash, too, but, if you were an SJ, it would be substantially less likely that this compulsive rebel with "a complete lack of respect for authority" would be one of your friends. If I assume you're an N (and I do), this sounds like INFJ vs. INFP to me — and you may recall that, in one of those Polly-thread posts I previously linked you to, I noted: "If there's a single type most known for a propensity to cultivate their own eccentricities and strongly define themselves in terms of all the ways they're different from the mainstream, it's the INFP. ... ENFPs definitely want to be authentic (like INFPs) but, all other things being equal, they'll be less inclined to seize on and emphasize stuff that seems particularly likely to rub lots of other people the wrong way."

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    What are some of your most important values?
    Purity in most senses of the word. Love, friendship, loyalty, protection, safety, kindness. I also think you should know who you are and think past the superficial things in life. I think everyone is a human being and thus even if you disagree you should be very kind to one another.
    I'd say having "purity," "protection" and "safety" be three of the words on your seven-word short list of values has more of an INFJ flavor than an INFP flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    I can also be really manipulative, which makes me feel really bad because I hate doing that to other people and I think they'd hate me if they knew, but I have such a hard time not doing it. I know what other people's buttons are and exactly how to make them feel what I want them to feel for them to do what I want them to do.
    I don't know that I'd say that "really manipulative" is a good way to describe an average INFJ but, as among the INs, I'd say an INFJ is significantly more likely to fit that description than an INFP or either of the INTs. INFJs are definitely the IN types most likely to be found in what you might call people management mode.

    In your last type-me thread, you went through an Ni description and bolded the stuff that you related to. It included this:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Visionary Drive: The sense of the future and the realizations that come from Ni have sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. The Ni user can hold the ideal future society or system within their Ni, and rigorously drive toward this goal to turn it into reality.
    I'd say a lot of that Ni description you went through would be likely to appeal to the majority of N's (and especially INs), but this bit about a focused vision of a future goal and a rigorous drive to turn it into reality vibes somewhat more IN_J than IN_P.

    ================================

    I'm not a functions fan, as you know, and I've posted at some length about how people's function scores on Nardi's keys2cognition test quite typically fail to match the most popular cognitive functions model that says, e.g., INFJ=Ni-Fe-Ti-Se. But I've seen lots of people's results on that test, and I think it's worth noting that, when you took it, Fi and Fe were your highest two scores, and both were very high:

    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) ****************************************** (42.1)
    excellent use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ********************************************** (46.1)
    excellent use
    It's been my experience that all four IN types tend to relate well to the Fi items on that test, and to get fairly high Fi scores (and higher Fi scores than Fe scores) regardless of whether they're supposedly "Fi types" or "Fe types" according to the popular functions model. But it's also very typical for the IN types to get relatively low Fe scores on that test, with the notable exception of INFJs. So, in other words, despite what the model may say about INFPs being Fi types and INFJs being Fe types, your high Fi score on that particular test doesn't particularly favor INFP over INFJ, while your high Fe score is significantly more characteristic of INFJs (on that test) than INFPs.
    Last edited by reckful; 11-04-2013 at 04:53 PM.

  6. #46
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    [5 of 5]

    tl;dr: RisaMoccasin is a Limbic INFJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    [5 of 5]

    tl;dr: RisaMoccasin is a Limbic INFJ.
    Well I would say that's that. XD

    (Also, funny you pointed out how I said my friend 'thinks she's an INFJ', because that exact friend I believe I've referred to in here? She's my INFP best friend. She finally dismissed MBTI as a 'box', and I started calling her an INFP because there's no way she isn't. XD)

    I do have a question merely out of learning purposes. Is it common for INFJs to be charged by other people if those people are the kind of people they like to talk to?

    For example, I went to a thing for writers a few days ago where we all wrote and talked about our novels while we were there, and this guy sitting across from me at my table was really interesting. Didn't talk to him for long enough to get a secure hold on his type, but he seemed like an ENFx, at the very least an EN. He had a lot of really interesting viewpoints and he told me he's in college for psychology, gender studies, other things along those lines. When he left I felt really energized because I had had such a good, in depth discussion with him.

    Because of the situation, I would say it's more of just an NF getting a glimpse at rare like-minded people than an extrovert, right?

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    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RisaMoccasin View Post
    Is it common for INFJs to be charged by other people if those people are the kind of people they like to talk to?

    For example, I went to a thing for writers a few days ago where we all wrote and talked about our novels while we were there, and this guy sitting across from me at my table was really interesting. Didn't talk to him for long enough to get a secure hold on his type, but he seemed like an ENFx, at the very least an EN. He had a lot of really interesting viewpoints and he told me he's in college for psychology, gender studies, other things along those lines. When he left I felt really energized because I had had such a good, in depth discussion with him.

    Because of the situation, I would say it's more of just an NF getting a glimpse at rare like-minded people than an extrovert, right?
    Neither Jung nor Myers framed E/I in terms of whether social interaction "charged" or "drained" someone. As a strong (and Limbic) introvert, I definitely agree with the idea that, all other things being equal, an introvert will generally get "drained" by social interaction in a way that extraverts don't — and it's more likely to happen the more people are involved, the more unfamiliar the people are, and the more pressure the introvert feels to make a good impression or engage in uncomfortable self-disclosures (among other possible exacerbating factors).

    But it's also utterly characteristic of an INF to be jazzed by a deep/meaningful one-on-one conversation on a subject that the INF is interested in — which is not to say that, if the conversation had continued for, say, a couple hours, you might not have experienced a kind of low-batteries feeling (and an urge for "alone time") that an extravert wouldn't have.

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    It is possible that instead of an N it an S, you are more of an X. You seem to be right in the middle, I don't know you so only you could truly say but you seem like an extravert. I would call you an EXFJ or an IXFJ

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