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  1. #131
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    I touched on that issue in my first post in the thread. One of the reasons I kind of like that Big Five test I linked to you is that, unlike the official MBTI and many of the online type tests, it's not "forced choice." It gives you five choices for each question — an "in the middle" choice as well as mild or strong in each direction. For that reason, it's reasonable to expect the SLOAN percentage scores to have something to say about the strength of your preferences. With a forced choice test, that's not really true. Somebody with, say, a mild S preference could easily take a forced choice test and, assuming they knew themselves well and interpreted the questions properly, end up choosing the S response for almost all (or all) of the questions, with the result being a very high S score. (That said, I think scores that are close to the middle on forced choice tests tend to be some indication that your preference on that dimension — in whichever direction — is probably on the mild side.)

    I'd also note that, to the extent that that website you've quoted would lead you to believe that, setting aside what tests can tell you, there's really no such thing as different strengths of your preferences, you should ignore it. Jung himself — besides saying he thought more people were in the middle on E/I than were significantly extraverted or introverted — also stressed that people of the same type varied considerably in terms of the strength (or, as he often characterized it, "one-sidedness") of their preferences. Myers likewise distinguished between people with mild and strong preferences, and I don't think I've ever heard of any reasonably well-known MBTI-related source claiming that every introvert (for example) was equally introverted, or that any of the other preferences manifested at only one possible level of strength.
    Forgive my oversight, or lack of understanding at the time-- though I'm learning a lot about MBTI from this thread, I still barely know enough to keep my head above water. In light of what you've said, what's your take on my scores here and the thought that I'm apparently using the non-dominant functions more than makes sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    So yes, INFJ, but IJFN in order of strength. That's a little wild for a dominant introverted intuitive. I'd think N would be stronger if that were the case. No wonder it's been tricky for you. I'm not saying you're -not- an INFJ, but if you are, you use your other than dominant functions an awful lot.
    My results:
    Introversion (I): |||||||||||||||||| 72.73%
    Extroversion (E): ||||||| 27.27%

    Intuition (N): |||||||||||||| 56.76%
    Sensation (S): ||||||||||| 43.24%

    Thinking (T): |||||||||| 40%
    Feeling (F): ||||||||||||||| 60%

    Judging (J): ||||||||||||||||| 69.23%
    Perceiving (P): |||||||| 30.77%
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  2. #132
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Forgive my oversight, or lack of understanding at the time-- though I'm learning a lot about MBTI from this thread, I still barely know enough to keep my head above water. In light of what you've said, what's your take on my scores here and the thought that I'm apparently using the non-dominant functions more than makes sense?
    Unless I'm missing something, you haven't posted scores from either of the tests I linked you to (the official "Step I" MBTI and the Big Five/SLOAN test). Aren't the scores in your latest post the ones from that PersonalityCafe quiz brainheart linked to?

    As for your question about "using the non-dominant functions more than makes sense": To the extent that you've been trying to type yourself by way of cognitive function tests and/or analysis, that's a mistake, IMHO. Assuming you have reasonably well-defined preferences, I think you're more likely to correctly type yourself using dichotomy-based tests than cognitive functions tests. And if you've got one or more preferences that are in or near the middle, I think dichotomy-based tests are more likely to correctly indicate that situation as well. Even cognitive function aficionados generally don't claim that there's any test they can point you to that's particularly likely to give you results that place your dominant function in first place and your auxiliary function in second place — never mind ID-ing your tertiary and inferior functions in any easy-to-spot way. Dario Nardi's considered one of the leading cognitive functions guys and his test is arguably the most-linked-to cognitive functions test — but, as further discussed in this post and this post, INTJs typically get high Ni scores and high Ne scores (with Ni not substantially favored over Ne), and high Te scores and high Ti scores (with Te not substantially favored over Ti), when they take Nardi's test.

    Above and beyond the test problems, I don't think the cognitive functions are the appropriate way to frame MBTI type — and that's actually the majority view out in the real world, although you'd never guess it from browsing MBTI-related internet forums. I think Reynierse is probably correct (in the article linked below) to call the functions a "category mistake." Just in case you have any interest — and only if you have any interest — in hearing why I consider myself a "dichotomies guy," you'll find quite a lot of explanation in this long INTJforum post.

    Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for the two links in that post:


    In any case, I'm still leaning INFJ for you, but I'd be curious to see your scores from the official MBTI test and that Big Five test (which, as I said before, can arguably — because of its Likert-scale design — make some claim to give you a read on the strength of your preferences). Again, both those tests are linked to in my first post.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Okay I started reading this-- Hold the phone! This really stuck out to me:

    "Percentages displayed on MBTI tests do not indicate the strength of a dichotomy. They represent the certainty level of the dichotomy. So if you get 100% Introvert, it doesn't mean you're necessarily more introverted than someone who gets a 80% - it just means you can be more certain of being introverted."

    So my scores are not representative of strength at all, but of my certainty of being an Introvert, iNtuitive, Feeler, and Judger. I'll continue to read about the functions but just had to comment on that part because of what you mentioned earlier about my scores pointing to frequent use of my non-dominant functions. If what they are saying is true, we have no way of knowing that at all. Right?
    I hope I'm not contradicting myself too much in this response, but-

    Yes, that makes sense. I think tests are often muddled when people are confused about their preferences, percentage wise, but I think the test is often close to being right, overall. In other words, it's likely you are an INFJ, and it's even more likely you're an IXXJ since you seemed to be most decisive in your answers about introversion and judging. That said, I think people can go through periods in their lives where they do use their other functions more, and I think it can be for the reasons (or close to the reasons) @Magic Qwan said. For example, when I was a fairly healthy high school student I tested as an INFP and it seemed like a no-brainer result to me. Many years later I took the test again. I was in the midst of a severe depression somewhat spurred by the repercussions of immature Fi and I tested as an INTP (as well as a 5w4). I think in many ways I was rejecting the fact that I was a Fi dom because Who I Was had caused me so much pain, so I was trying to be more logical, listening to my head more than my heart. Obviously I have no idea what your current situation is, I only know how it worked for me, but perhaps there are things happening in your life that are affecting your results?

    I asked you to take that test because I think it's good to both get the perspective of the basic MBTI test and to read up on the cognitive functions. As @reckful says, cognitive function tests don't give the most conclusive results either. For example, it's pretty typical for my results to go in the order of Fi Ni Ne Fe Se Si Ti Te, and for the test to say I'm likely an INFP but I could be an INFJ or ENFP. So it narrows things down, but doesn't do much more than that.

    Ultimately, however, the certainty of your type will likely come to you at some random moment in your day and you will just know. It's good to understand the typing theory but I think your brain is only going to get you so far. And sometimes it takes time to process these things.

  4. #134
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Unless I'm missing something, you haven't posted scores from either of the tests I linked you to (the official "Step I" MBTI and the Big Five/SLOAN test). Aren't the scores in your latest post the ones from that PersonalityCafe quiz brainheart linked to?

    As for your question about "using the non-dominant functions more than makes sense": To the extent that you've been trying to type yourself by way of cognitive function tests and/or analysis, that's a mistake, IMHO. Assuming you have reasonably well-defined preferences, I think you're more likely to correctly type yourself using dichotomy-based tests than cognitive functions tests. And if you've got one or more preferences that are in or near the middle, I think dichotomy-based tests are more likely to correctly indicate that situation as well. Even cognitive function aficionados generally don't claim that there's any test they can point you to that's particularly likely to give you results that place your dominant function in first place and your auxiliary function in second place — never mind ID-ing your tertiary and inferior functions in any easy-to-spot way. Dario Nardi's considered one of the leading cognitive functions guys and his test is arguably the most-linked-to cognitive functions test — but, as further discussed in this post and this post, INTJs typically get high Ni scores and high Ne scores (with Ni not substantially favored over Ne), and high Te scores and high Ti scores (with Te not substantially favored over Ti), when they take Nardi's test.

    Above and beyond the test problems, I don't think the cognitive functions are the appropriate way to frame MBTI type — and that's actually the majority view out in the real world, although you'd never guess it from browsing MBTI-related internet forums. I think Reynierse is probably correct (in the article linked below) to call the functions a "category mistake." Just in case you have any interest — and only if you have any interest — in hearing why I consider myself a "dichotomies guy," you'll find quite a lot of explanation in this long INTJforum post.

    Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for the two links in that post:


    In any case, I'm still leaning INFJ for you, but I'd be curious to see your scores from the official MBTI test and that Big Five test (which, as I said before, can arguably — because of its Likert-scale design — make some claim to give you a read on the strength of your preferences). Again, both those tests are linked to in my first post.
    Okay. Yes, I think I'll take both the official MBTI and the Big Five and post my results here when I do. Thanks for all your help!
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  5. #135
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I hope I'm not contradicting myself too much in this response, but-

    Yes, that makes sense. I think tests are often muddled when people are confused about their preferences, percentage wise, but I think the test is often close to being right, overall. In other words, it's likely you are an INFJ, and it's even more likely you're an IXXJ since you seemed to be most decisive in your answers about introversion and judging. That said, I think people can go through periods in their lives where they do use their other functions more, and I think it can be for the reasons (or close to the reasons) @Magic Qwan said. For example, when I was a fairly healthy high school student I tested as an INFP and it seemed like a no-brainer result to me. Many years later I took the test again. I was in the midst of a severe depression somewhat spurred by the repercussions of immature Fi and I tested as an INTP (as well as a 5w4). I think in many ways I was rejecting the fact that I was a Fi dom because Who I Was had caused me so much pain, so I was trying to be more logical, listening to my head more than my heart. Obviously I have no idea what your current situation is, I only know how it worked for me, but perhaps there are things happening in your life that are affecting your results?

    I asked you to take that test because I think it's good to both get the perspective of the basic MBTI test and to read up on the cognitive functions. As @reckful says, cognitive function tests don't give the most conclusive results either. For example, it's pretty typical for my results to go in the order of Fi Ni Ne Fe Se Si Ti Te, and for the test to say I'm likely an INFP but I could be an INFJ or ENFP. So it narrows things down, but doesn't do much more than that.

    Ultimately, however, the certainty of your type will likely come to you at some random moment in your day and you will just know. It's good to understand the typing theory but I think your brain is only going to get you so far. And sometimes it takes time to process these things.
    That's funny because I'm currently in the healthiest season of my life to date! I'd say (in Enneagram terms) that I generally function between levels 2 and 4 with occasional accents to 1 and falls to 5. 2006-2009 was the most unhealthy season of my life to date (and hopefully ever), I definitely experienced level 8, and I believe level 9 a few times in the darker part that time period. I was pessimistic, a victim, manipulative, angry, needy, volatile, and pathetic. I've since been healing, growing and becoming the person I am now, but I know I couldn't accept myself as fully as I do without that hard, unhealthy period of my life. I'm far from a perfectionist, and have learned that the flaws or "mistakes" often make the picture that much more beautiful. I've expressed this elsewhere on the forum, but I actually think that's why 4's integration to 1 is so beautiful. We are able to express clear discernment and make our lives orderly enough to succeed, but all of that is grounded in our knowledge and experience of deep, searing pain and dejection. We seek and love Truth, not Rightness-- even if it is not pretty. So no, I don't think I'm at a place in my life where I really fake anything anymore. I do experience shame still over who I am (because I let it show), but that's another story.

    I don't know where that leaves me then?
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  6. #136
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    I don't know where that leaves me then?
    It leaves you awesome, is what it does.

  7. #137
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Haha, love that. Thanks!
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  8. #138
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    @reckful Well I finally took both of those tests! I'm sorry it took me awhile, I needed some time and space after this thread for the dust to settle.

    My results are funny, and I kind of resent them (as I tend to with these tests). Here's for the Global5/SLOAN

    Extroversion |||||||||| 34%
    Orderliness |||||||||||||| 58%
    Emotional Stability |||||||||||||||| 70%
    Accommodation |||||| 26%
    Inquisitiveness |||||||||||||| 58%

    The Big Five is currently the most accepted personality model in the scientific community. The Big Five emerged from the work of multiple independent scientists/researchers starting in the 1950s who using different techniques obtained similar results. Those results were that there are five distinct personality traits/dimensions. Here are your results on each dimension:

    Extroversion results were moderately low which suggests you are reclusive, quiet, unassertive, and private.

    Orderliness results were moderately high which suggests you are, at times, overly organized, neat, structured and restrained at the expense too often of flexibility, variety, spontaneity, and fun.

    Emotional Stability results were high which suggests you are very relaxed, calm, secure, and optimistic.

    Accommodation results were low which suggests you are overly selfish, uncooperative, and difficult at the expense too often of the well being of others.

    Inquisitiveness results were moderately high which suggests you are intellectual, curious, imaginative but possibly not very practical.

    Your Global5/SLOAN type is RCOEI
    Your Primary type is Egocentric
    (the hyperlinks above contain more thorough descriptions including preferred/dispreferred careers)

    You scored as introverted and intellectually curious. I recently started a discussion forum for introverted intellectuals, if interested visit introspectives.org

    Global 5: sloan RCOEI; sloan+ rCo|E|i; primary Egocentric; R(66%)C(70%)O(58%)E(74%)I(58%)

    -----

    The part I resent about this one is my ridiculously low score in Accommodation. I have to intentionally make and guard boundaries because of my tendency to over-give of my time to others when unhealthy (disintegrating to 2), which is why I answered the questions that way.

    Here is my MBTI score, which says INTJ (each letter being clear, except T). I actually laughed aloud at these results because I agonized over every Thinking vs. Feeling question on the test (because I feel I'm very close there). I suspect many 4w5's and 5w4's struggle with this, especially those like myself who have a heavy wing. I've had to do the feelings vs. thoughts introspective analysis so many times for both my Enneagram type, and a couple times now for the T/F distinction in MBTI. Even though it is a very close tie, I believe I favor feeling.

    Think I should add yet another "x" to my MBTI identification? Though this time the J/P came out pretty clear, so maybe move my "x" anyway.
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  9. #139
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    @reckful Well I finally took both of those tests! I'm sorry it took me awhile, I needed some time and space after this thread for the dust to settle.

    My results are funny, and I kind of resent them (as I tend to with these tests). Here's for the Global5/SLOAN

    Extroversion |||||||||| 34%
    Orderliness |||||||||||||| 58%
    Emotional Stability |||||||||||||||| 70%
    Accommodation |||||| 26%
    Inquisitiveness |||||||||||||| 58%
    ...
    Your Global5/SLOAN type is RCOEI
    Your Primary type is Egocentric
    ...
    Global 5: sloan RCOEI; sloan+ rCo|E|i; primary Egocentric; R(66%)C(70%)O(58%)E(74%)I(58%)

    -----

    The part I resent about this one is my ridiculously low score in Accommodation. I have to intentionally make and guard boundaries because of my tendency to over-give of my time to others when unhealthy (disintegrating to 2), which is why I answered the questions that way.

    Here is my MBTI score, which says INTJ (each letter being clear, except T). I actually laughed aloud at these results because I agonized over every Thinking vs. Feeling question on the test (because I feel I'm very close there). I suspect many 4w5's and 5w4's struggle with this, especially those like myself who have a heavy wing. I've had to do the feelings vs. thoughts introspective analysis so many times for both my Enneagram type, and a couple times now for the T/F distinction in MBTI. Even though it is a very close tie, I believe I favor feeling.

    Think I should add yet another "x" to my MBTI identification? Though this time the J/P came out pretty clear, so maybe move my "x" anyway.
    I'm in the middle of a few too many type-me threads at the moment, so I won't be able to refresh my memory on this one and do any detailed follow-up for at least a few days — although it's on my to-do list (and I'm a J), but just quickly for today...

    As you probably gathered, your Big Five scores correspond to Calm INTJ — so they match your official MBTI scores — which I'll note, for the record, were:
    E 3 18 I
    S 3 23 N
    T 15 9 F
    J 17 5 P

    I still think you're an F. Here's what Isabel Myers said about the right frame of mind for taking the MBTI:

    Quote Originally Posted by MBTI Manual
    Some people have trouble finding the correct frame of mind for answering the MBTI. When reporting the results to some people, they say they reported their "work self," "school self," "ideal self," or some other self they now consider atypical. The frame of reference desired in respondents is what has been termed the "shoes-off self." The "shoes-off self" fosters an attitude in which one functions naturally, smoothly, and effortlessly, and in which one is not going "against one's grain." The function of the MBTI is to provide the first step toward understanding one's natural preferences.

    I often describe the MBTI preferences — at least in terms of many of their aspects — as "temperament tugs." In cases where you're conflicted and one side of the conflict is more the "gut level" or "natural inclination" you and the other side is a more rational/calculating side of you that, to some degree, wants to rein in (or thinks you should rein in) your more natural inclinations for the sake of external results or for any other reason, your MBTI preference is more likely to correspond to the "natural inclination."

    So I'd say you should view the fact that your gut inclines you to "over-give of [your] time to others" — and to what you view as an "unhealthy" extent, no less — as evidence (and pretty strong evidence at that) of an F preference that you're doing your best to rein in as an act of going-against-your-grain will power. You may recall that I talked earlier in the thread about INFJs being somewhat prone to be martyrs, and how that fits in with the fact that they're the closest cousins (among the N's) to the ISFJs, who are the types typically characterized as having the strongest core service-to-others streak — to the point of being generous-to-a-fault if they don't learn to, as you say, "guard boundaries."

    And it sounds like you're saying that, if you'd answered the Big Five questions in that spirit, your Accommodation score would have been quite a lot higher; and I'm guessing your MBTI T/F score would have been F (or significantly closer to F) if you'd answered the T/F questions — which you acknowledge you "agonized over" in any case — in that spirit.

    In four years of participating in type-me threads at INTJforum, I've often noted that I think it's not uncommon for INFs to test as INTs, at least partly because many of the F choices on typical MBTI tests (including the official test) are choices that are more likely to appeal to SFs and EFs than INFs — and not only do I think that's more true of INFJs than INFPs, I think it's probably even more true of female INFJs than male INFJs. I think male F's are often aware that they differ from cultural male stereotypes in ways that make them more "F-ish" than average whereas, by contrast, I think INFJ women who compare themselves to cultural female stereotypes (not to mention the majority of actual women) are reasonably likely to think of themselves as more T-ish than those "feeler" women (EFs, SFs and, especially, ESFs). In any case, it's certainly been my experience that it's considerably more common for an INFJ (male or female) to mistype as INTJ (and later conclude they're really INFJ) than vice versa. I think that, in some ways, it's fair to say that INFJs are both the "least F" of the F's and the "least NF" of the NFs.

    So anyway, I'm still at INFJ for now, but I plan to review your posts and give you some more input at some point in the (hopefully) not too distant future.

  10. #140
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    I'm in the middle of a few too many type-me threads at the moment, so I won't be able to refresh my memory on this one and do any detailed follow-up for at least a few days — although it's on my to-do list (and I'm a J), but just quickly for today...

    As you probably gathered, your Big Five scores correspond to Calm INTJ — so they match your official MBTI scores — which I'll note, for the record, were:
    E 3 18 I
    S 3 23 N
    T 15 9 F
    J 17 5 P

    I still think you're an F. Here's what Isabel Myers said about the right frame of mind for taking the MBTI:


    I often describe the MBTI preferences — at least in terms of many of their aspects — as "temperament tugs." In cases where you're conflicted and one side of the conflict is more the "gut level" or "natural inclination" you and the other side is a more rational/calculating side of you that, to some degree, wants to rein in (or thinks you should rein in) your more natural inclinations for the sake of external results or for any other reason, your MBTI preference is more likely to correspond to the "natural inclination."

    So I'd say you should view the fact that your gut inclines you to "over-give of [your] time to others" — and to what you view as an "unhealthy" extent, no less — as evidence (and pretty strong evidence at that) of an F preference that you're doing your best to rein in as an act of going-against-your-grain will power. You may recall that I talked earlier in the thread about INFJs being somewhat prone to be martyrs, and how that fits in with the fact that they're the closest cousins (among the N's) to the ISFJs, who are the types typically characterized as having the strongest core service-to-others streak — to the point of being generous-to-a-fault if they don't learn to, as you say, "guard boundaries."

    And it sounds like you're saying that, if you'd answered the Big Five questions in that spirit, your Accommodation score would have been quite a lot higher; and I'm guessing your MBTI T/F score would have been F (or significantly closer to F) if you'd answered the T/F questions — which you acknowledge you "agonized over" in any case — in that spirit.

    In four years of participating in type-me threads at INTJforum, I've often noted that I think it's not uncommon for INFs to test as INTs, at least partly because many of the F choices on typical MBTI tests (including the official test) are choices that are more likely to appeal to SFs and EFs than INFs — and not only do I think that's more true of INFJs than INFPs, I think it's probably even more true of female INFJs than male INFJs. I think male F's are often aware that they differ from cultural male stereotypes in ways that make them more "F-ish" than average whereas, by contrast, I think INFJ women who compare themselves to cultural female stereotypes (not to mention the majority of actual women) are reasonably likely to think of themselves as more T-ish than those "feeler" women (EFs, SFs and, especially, ESFs). In any case, it's certainly been my experience that it's considerably more common for an INFJ (male or female) to mistype as INTJ (and later conclude they're really INFJ) than vice versa. I think that, in some ways, it's fair to say that INFJs are both the "least F" of the F's and the "least NF" of the NFs.

    So anyway, I'm still at INFJ for now, but I plan to review your posts and give you some more input at some point in the (hopefully) not too distant future.
    Thanks for your time as always. It's funny, but I'm glad I left your post alone for awhile because I don't think I totally digested/comprehended it the first time I read it. Reading it now feels quite different, go figure!

    I think what you've said is fascinating about INFJ's being the least F of feeling types, and the least NF of all the NF types. I know you may be hip deep in other threads at this point, but I'd love to hear more about that thought (which I resonate with). I have, in the time since this thread, come to accept INFJ as my MBTI typing while keeping my close F/T score in mind as an important detail. So there's that anyway.

    I also think what you've pointed out about the posture of test taking is important and valid. "Shoes off" approach is a nice way to put it, and I do think I am more Feeling when I have my feet up.
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