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  1. #31
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    4. I think Keirsey had a lot of insightful things to say about the various MBTI types, but I also think he made a pretty big mistake when he decided to label ISFPs the "Artists." In going from Please Understand Me to Please Understand Me II, he actually changed Artist to "Composer," but I'm afraid that correction wasn't sufficiently wide in its scope. To his credit, Keirsey also said, right from the start, that NFs were by far the most common types in the arts that involved "verbal and written communication" (as you know if you read the stuff in the previous spoiler), but the fact is that N's (and especially NFs) are actually the most common types in the vast majority of what you'd call the "creative arts" — and, since that issue is certainly germane to your type, I've recycled a relevant post of mine in the next spoiler.



    5. Would you say you're a bit on the flaky side (from an INTJ perspective) when it comes to "New Age" stuff? See the next spoiler.



    6. Finally, you've talked about puzzling results on online functions tests and told us "my functions seem to be pretty messed up, or I can't really understand how they work." In my view, the fault for your confusion is at least as likely to be with the cognitive functions themselves as with you — and, if you're interested in hearing why I consider myself a "dichotomies guy," you'll find quite a lot of explanation in this long INTJforum post.

    Links in INTJforum posts don't work if you're not a member, so here are replacements for the two links in that post:


  2. #32

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    @reckful thank you very much, you've made an amazing job collecting so many informations!
    After readin your S/N article, I have to say I am a "hardcore" N . More than anything else I am interested in ideas, art, creative works, science, theories... Most of all I value intelectual and inspiring people and try to take my inspirations from everything around me. I tend to be unsatisfied a lot and always try to change things around for better. Everytime I reach some goal, I feel like there are tons of other things, that has to be imrpooved. I've always been great in writting and making speaches, the reason why I decided to study medias, is because I'd love to be a journalist, or reporter. I write stories and poems sicne I learned how to write . But aslo the true is, I love perfomring arts. I am not good at making anything with my heands, or body, but I love singing and acting and I am a huge fun of theaters and music. But I have to point out... the post seems to say, Ns are better, more inteleligent and more creative, than Ss... I think you can't categorize people like that. Everyone can be inteligent and creative, just sensors are inteligent and creative in a differnt way, than inutiutives are.
    About the NT/NF post... I can relate to both pretty well. To NFs... I really search for meaning and individuality within myself and everyone else around me. I always believe, that everything has some special meaning and one thing leads to other. We are here to develope, learn and improove ourselves. But I am not very type of a person, that would help other people. Just like NTs I am interested in the system of how human's mind works, the system of our thinking processes, while the practicular helping doesn't appeal to me so much. I am fascinated by theories and systems, but more into this humanitarian way. That is the reason why I like psychology, sociology, politology... About the other NF post, I can relate very much, but that thing with love and expressing my feelings so much to others... ewh... no way ! I actually have some difficulties with expressing my feelings direct. I even appeal as cold to lot of people. I would say I am totally anti-romantic type. Everytime my boyfriend tries to be romantic I can't help myself, but start to laugh and say he sounds pathetic. And to me really romance sounds a bit... pathetic. Even relationship itself are not so meaningfull for me. Maybe if they would be a bit more free, but living with one person and expressing and giving all my life to him... why? I want to live full life, unlimited, free and changing. Love is limiting.... About being poetic and artistic. Yes I am, but somehow I always had a thing for dark poetry, that is not so much about love, or romance, but rather talk about some problems and is emotionally really deep. I have a thing for Jim Morrison's poetry, Kurt Cobain's poetry and Layne Stalye's poetry.
    About new age stuff... I actually kind of like it. But I am not a new age person that much, I just like some ideas. I believe meditation and yoga excercise are great for hunam's body and mind. For time to time I excercise yoga myself. I used to very much believe in astrology, when I was younger, but now I see it much more, like a funny lie and just astrology is a great example of how people can believe any bullshits, when you say them you can count it, or drew some charts that proof it. I have no idea on which real principe would astrology really function? None I guess... But I believe in energies. I believe, that everything around us is built up on some enrgies, that influence each other, and I think it's a proven fact. Electricity is an energy, gravity is an energy...everything is energy. So logically there has to be an energy everywhere in nature, positive, or negative. And one energy influences the other...That's why I believe in existence of karma, in power of alternative medicines and spiritual practices. But in general I am skeptical about religions and spiritual movements. I need to see some logical basis to really start to think about some philosophy, or movement, but unfortunetly most of the spiritual movements seem to be blind to logic and rather just appeal on feelings of their adherents. That is why I can't ever choose any religion for good... I can see some good ideas here and there, but when the craps about power of super natural beings comes out everytime I read some good spiritual idea I feel like people has to be fools to really believe this crap... That's why I like Marilyn Manson... this guy is deep and spiritual and at the same can say "fuck" to all religions and religionistc people!
    About you against and for functions theory... I think functions are better, then just MBTI itself. It can say much more about the person's nature. All feelers have something in common, but an introverted feeler, doesn't use his feelings the same way as extroverted feeler does.

  3. #33
    Junior Member dtkua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    Hi! Thanks for reading this thread . I am an old sailor riding through MBTI and enneagram waves for pretty long, to the point I admited I will be forever confused about my type. But I don't want this... I want once and for all, now what type I am, but it seems like imposible mission. First I was really sure I am some kind of NF type, most likely ENFP, then also INFP, or INFJ. Then I started to read more about functions and I very much relate to Ti, so I considered, that I might be ENTP, or INTP as well as INFJ with well developed Ti. But then the doubters came with their...you are Se... So I started to consider, that I am an ISFP, or ESFP after all... And now...now I just really don't know what the hell am I?! Ti, or Te? Fi dominant, or not? Intuitive, or a sensor?
    Wow. This is exactly what I'm going through now, you've described it perfectly. In most tests I've scored INFP, but somehow I'm really not sure. It doesn't fit 100%, and should do. The worst thing is that at one moment it becomes almost life and death issue and you HAVE TO find out your type.

  4. #34
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    I'm b-a-a-a-a-ck...

    As promised, here are some reactions to various of your TC posts (including ones from other threads).

    I assume there's no reason for me to say much more at this point about the strong identity-seeking aspect of your personality. My two-part post talked about the search for self being especially associated with both NFs and Enneagram 4's, and you've mentioned that you always come out Type 4 on Enneagram tests, and I'd say your posts really make you a proverbial NF "poster girl" in that respect. For the benefit of the other thread readers, and to make this Polly portrait a little more complete, I'm just going to throw in a handful of quotes from your posts along those lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    - My whole life I've been seeking for my "true self"
    - I want to find out who I am in my real core
    - I always need to be true to myself
    ...
    - My whole life I've been feeling like I miss something inside of me
    - The inner feelings of emptiness
    ...
    - I am looking for meaning in everything
    ...
    - I need to express myself through original and unusual style, or hobbies
    ...
    - I have strong inner beliefs and ideas, that I always want to achive and go along with
    ...
    - I often feel like I am on a mission, I am looking for some speacial message in everything
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    Being my own self is one of the most important things in my life as much as finding my own self and my core needs so then I could follow them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I really search for meaning and individuality within myself and everyone else around me. I always believe, that everything has some special meaning and one thing leads to other. We are here to develop, learn and improve ourselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    2. What do you hope to accomplish in your life?
    However stupid or egocentrically it might sound I want to be unique and inspiring.
    3. What do you hope to avoid doing or being? What values are important to you?
    I would hate to be boring, unoriginal or stereotyping. ... I want my life to be original and exciting. ... I also want to be creative, self expressive with young and fresh ideas. Administrative work and family life without any excitement, or chance to be creative and expressive would be the murder of my individuality. After all... I think it's the murder of everyone's individuality and I know some people are going to hate me... but I don't understand why people do this commitments and I hope I never will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I feel better and stronger, than I used to be, but with this comes more doubts. I finally ... found my own sense of style and originality, but I feel like isn't it all just fake? Is it really me? I just don't know. ... I feel it's gotten out of the control and far from who I really am. So I try to stop all of this and start over looking for my indentity.
    ================================

    In your last post, you said, "All feelers have something in common, but an introverted feeler doesn't use his feelings the same way as extroverted feeler does." As you know, I have my doubts about whether Fe vs. Fi (at least as they're slotted in the most popular functions model) is the best way to frame this issue, but I couldn't agree more that some types of F's are "feelers" in a way that others definitely aren't.

    You've said that one of the reasons you've wondered about whether INFP really fits you is "I have a hard time to relate to how caring and nice and sensitive natures xNFPs seem to be. I don't see myself like that at all. I am sensitive, but I don't know if in the way of being a feeler. I can't imagine myself being in some caring position, or nurture others."

    Well... first of all, it's important not to lose sight of the fact that at least half the population is made up of F's. Assuming Linda Berens has her figures right (and she says they're from the MBTI Manual), the official MBTI folks are apparently now estimating that, whereas 43.4% of men are F's, only 24.4% of women are T's — which suggests that something like 60% of the population may be F's. But in any case, even if you just assume that around half of people are F's, has it been your experience that around half of the population is made up of people who are notably "caring and nice and sensitive" and prone to "nurture others"? No? I didn't think so.

    I've been participating in type-me threads for four years now (mostly at INTJforum) and, in my experience, it's not uncommon for INFs to test as INTs, at least partly because many of the F choices on typical MBTI tests (including the official test) are choices that are more likely to appeal to SFs and EFs than INFs — and I think that's probably even more true of female INFs than male INFs. I think male F's are often aware that they differ from cultural male stereotypes in ways that make them more "F-ish" than average whereas, by contrast, I think INF women who compare themselves to cultural female stereotypes (not to mention the majority of actual women) are reasonably likely to think of themselves as more T-ish than those "feeler" women (EFs, SFs and, especially, ESFs).

    In particular, it seems to be pretty common for INFs (female or male) to question their F preference because of what they see as their relative lack (compared to some of the other F types) in terms of things like outwardly-directed emotional warmth and active helping/service behavior. And I think introversion and an N preference can each make some contribution to what an INF may view as that kind of "lack of F." I think an N preference tends to be associated with a significant degree of what you might call emotional detachment. Myers referred to SFs — rather than the F's in general — as the "sympathetic and friendly types." And Jung went on and on about introverts' fraught relationship with their emotional side. "Both [extraverts and introverts] are capable of enthusiasm," he explained. "What fills the extravert's heart flows out of his mouth, but the enthusiasm of the introvert is the very thing that seals his lips."

    I'd say all the INs (INFs and INTs both) share at least some significant potential to be the kind of people who will more often feel deeply and meaningfully stirred by aesthetic experiences than by their day-to-day interactions with others. And I think it's reasonably characteristic of an INFP for their F preference to be more prone to take the form of a drive to somehow "serve humanity" or "make the world a better place" than a service-to-others streak directed at the people they're interacting with on a day-to-day basis. I'd say passionate involvement in, e.g., environmental or other progressive causes is pretty characteristic of INFPs. And an INFP artist's desire for self-expression is reasonably likely to include at least some sense that the people who read her novels or poetry or whatever and are exposed to her perspective will be enlightened or otherwise have their lives improved.

    And I'd also say that there's no question that an INFP — and especially an INFP with no family responsibilities — can end up being a fairly self-absorbed person (and you've described yourself as "more self-absorbed than sacrificing"). Not selfish in the sense of being unfair to others or wanting more than her share or otherwise violating the golden rule, but self-absorbed in the sense that, consistent with some of the NF descriptions in my last post, her goals of self-discovery, self-improvement, self-expansion, experiencing life "in the full," etc. are her central focus, rather than any kind of service-to-others drive.

    It's also not uncommon to find INFs questioning their F (as you have) because they see themselves as more logical and analytical than they think "feelers" tend to be. (You said, " I am too ... rational to be a feeling type.") But the notion that F's are people who just let their emotions (or some non-logical "feeling function") make their decisions for them is one that doesn't even apply that well to ESFs, and certainly doesn't fit INFs well. All four of the IN types (INTs and INFs both) tend to be notably analytical (including a significant degree of analyical detachment from their emotions), and to bring logic into play when they're making important decisions. All other things being equal, an INF is more likely than an INT to feel like her emotions are significant and may have something important to tell her, but the devoted scrutiny an INF gives to her emotions is likely to include a healthy dose of critical analysis, rather than just blind acceptance.

    In a couple of posts, you've mentioned that you "relate well to Ti" — but, notwithstanding the most popular cognitive functions model, the fact is that most INs, partly for the reasons I've just described (their highly analytical natures), tend to feel like they relate pretty well to substantial parts of typical Ti descriptions. As one collection of evidence, and as further discussed in this post and this post, INTJs are supposed to be Te types but there's a 350-post thread at INTJforum that shows that, when INTJs take Nardi's keys2cognition functions test, they get high Te scores and high Ti scores — and Te really isn't substantially favored over Ti.

    ================================

    I think Keirsey had a lot of good insights, as you know, but I think his NF descriptions tend to be somewhat skewed in the rosy/romantic direction, at least for INF purposes. That said, though (and as you know from the roundup in Part 3 of my last post), after describing what he viewed as the NF tendency to romanticize relationships, he also warned that NFs could tend to be restless/fickle — prone to find that any relationship that they've been in for a significant length of time is somehow not enough. In listing an INFP's characteristic weak spots, personalitypage.com notes that INFPs "may have difficulty maintaining close relationships, due to unreasonable expectations."

    You've said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    My saying has ever been... I won't ever get married and I won't ever have real relatiohsip, because it's just too confining. And here I am with my boyfriend going to our vacations, posting pictures of a happy couple to our friends. And I am just unsure about all of this... Is this really what I want? I feel like escaping it all, but I know it would be so irresponsible and selfish.
    ...and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I would say I am totally anti-romantic type. Everytime my boyfriend tries to be romantic I can't help myself, but start to laugh and say he sounds pathetic. And to me really romance sounds a bit... pathetic. Even relationship itself are not so meaningful for me. Maybe if they would be a bit more free, but living with one person and expressing and giving all my life to him... why? I want to live full life, unlimited, free and changing. Love is limiting.
    And I'd say there's more than one way to be "anti-romantic." The way that would be less characteristic of an INFP would be for a person (maybe a male IT...) to be in a steady relationship and to not only not yearn for something more or greater beyond the current relationship, but also to have some tendency to be neglectful of whatever romantic riches the current relationship might have to offer. And the way that's more characteristic (I'd say) of an INFP would be to view the world of "romance" in somewhat bohemian/unconventional terms — as a rich world full of possibilities for different kinds of experiences with different kinds of people. For someone with that kind of perspective, confining yourself to a single partner is like a food lover being stuck eating only, say, Chinese food. And that may be "unromantic" in conventional terms, but you could also see it as an idealistic standard of love/sex/romance as a potentially rich and life-expanding cornucupia that no one relationship could ever hope to live up to — and "free love" and polyamory and similar kinds of movements are often framed in that kind of idealistic way.

    That said, though, I'd also note that a fair amount of skittishness when it comes to settling on a supposedly lifelong choice of a romantic partner tends to be at least somewhat characteristic of young people of most types.

    The last thing I want to note in this department is that, when it comes to what you might call that unsentimental (or anti-sentimental) streak of yours that tends to "laugh and say he sounds pathetic" when your boyfriend "tries to be romantic" — I'd say INFPs come in a range of flavors when it comes to romantic sentimentality, but I think that streak is significantly uncharacteristic of ENFPs. My experience has been that ENFP women tend to happily soak up most kinds of positive appreciation that anyone wants to aim in their direction, emphatically including romantic gestures from a boyfriend, and my understanding is that my experience in that regard is pretty typical of ENFPs.

    Similarly, I think a noteworthy taste for (in your words) "dark arts" (along with, as you also described it, "mystery, death, depression"...) is also substantially more characteristic of an INFP than an ENFP. And, in fact, I think a tendency to favor the dark/gothic/moody/brooding/tormented corner of the aesthetic world is pretty strongly characteristic of INFPs. So I'm not misunderstood, I'd say ENFPs also tend to have a significant soft spot for moody outcast types like (to take two of your faves) Kurt Cobain and Jim Morrison, but ENFPs, as you may know, are also somewhat infamous for their rainbow/teddy-bear/unicorn-loving streak. I'd say somebody who's more of an all-out goth is significantly more likely to be an INFP (as between those two types). You also told us that "I am attracted in everything strange and 'weird,'" and that's yet another INFP-over-ENFP indicator to me. If there's a single type most known for a propensity to cultivate their own eccentricities and strongly define themselves in terms of all the ways they're different from the mainstream, it's the INFP. ENFPs, like all the EFs, tend to be more concerned with being liked and accepted by others. ENFPs definitely want to be authentic (like INFPs) but, all other things being equal, they'll be less inclined to seize on and emphasize stuff that seems particularly likely to rub lots of other people the wrong way.

    Speaking of bohemian, you've noted that, as a general thing, you "tend to be bohemian in a lot of ways," and the types that I most associate with bohemian attitudes and tastes are definitely the NFPs. Similarly, you said, "I like hippies and similar movemants," and I've always said that NFPs (ENFPs and INFPs both) are the most quintessential hippie types. I think Keirsey was right to describe SJs as the most culturally mainstream, and I think the S and the J each make some contribution to that, so it's not surprising that a typical "counterculture" core would tend to be disproportionately NP.

    And on that note... I think attitude toward change is one of those cases where two of the MBTI dimensions can be viewed as contributing, each in its own way, to some aspect of personality. If you want to contrast change-oriented vs. tradition-oriented, I'd say S/N and J/P can each make a contribution, with SJs being the ultimate traditionalists (temperamentally over-pessimistic about change, and tending to over-value the way things are and/or "always have been"), NPs being the ultimate change agents (temperamentally over-optimistic about change, and prone to err on the side of having too little respect for established ways), and SPs and NJs being somewhere in between and arguably more realistic (about change). Maybe you could say NJs are change agents, but more cautious and realistic about possible changes than the NPs; and that SPs are not that driven to be changers/innovators, but are more open to change (and less tradition-worshipping) than the SJs. In any case, I'd say NPs are the types most likely to end up itchy for a change just because it's "time for a change," and/or from a feeling that things have gotten stale and need to be stirred up to get life's vital juices flowing again, and/or from a feeling that the other grass usually is greener.

    Against that background, here's you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I am also very interested in society and politics. I could imagine myself being a part of liberal political party with humanistic and green ideas. I need something with strong idea and motivation toward change and future.
    ...
    I want go with changes and trends. ... I also hate to feel tied up, I literally feel panickly scared, when I know there is no escape from something. I always need to feel like...it's okay I can escape whenever I want to.
    ...
    authority- No! Freedom and open rules... that's what I believe in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    - I have strong ideas about changing the system....
    - I want to improve world, myself, my environment according to my inner feeling of what is right
    - offer an ideas how to imrpove things
    ...
    - I need a lot of change
    - most of all I value freedom
    - the worst thing for me would be to be tied up, or chained down and unfree
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I tend to be unsatisfied a lot and always try to change things around for better. ...
    ...
    I want to live full life, unlimited, free and changing.
    Maybe this is as good a point as any to mention that the two preferences of yours that seem the most certain to me are N and P. My F lean is pretty strong, too, but the caveat there is that I think T/F is the messiest of the four MBTI dichotomies by a significant margin, and the partial entanglement with male/female is just a part of that.

    ================================

    E/I is the dimension where it seems to me like you're closest to being borderline. Jung himself said he thought more people are essentially in the middle on E/I than are significantly extraverted or introverted and, as I understand it, both MBTI and Big Five data suggest that extraversion/introversion may exhibit something like a normal distribution, with most people not too far from the middle. So I wouldn't rule out the possibility that xNFP might turn out to be a more suitable label for you than either INFP or ENFP would be — but I know your inner identity-seeker isn't likely to be all that happy with a wishy-washy "x" conclusion and, in any case, I continue to have a mild I lean.

    As you may already know, the types with the greatest hermit potential are the ITs, and especially male ITs. IFs are introverts, and that means they'll tend to favor social interaction that involves what's often referred to as their "inner circle," but it's not at all uncommon for IFs — and this is more true during their school years than later in life — to end up having a regular gang (or two) who they spend a lot of their free time hanging out with. And young introverts can also be relatively bigtime partiers, although, all other things being equal, introverts tend to experience more underlying discomfort and/or awkwardness in the process of meeting new people than extraverts do. In general, the differences between introverts and extraverts tend to be substantially more pronounced when they're dealing with strangers or not-too-close acquaintances than when they're dealing with their family and friends.

    It's probably also worth noting — and I'm guessing you probably know this already — that the ranks of performers (singers, actors, stand-up comics, etc.) are well-populated with introverts. You sometimes read (and I've read forum posts that confirm this, and it's true of me as well) that an introvert is often more comfortable standing up in front of an audience of, e.g., prospective clients and making a well-prepared presentation than that same introvert will be at the cocktail party afterward where they have to meet and try to make small talk with those same people. All other things being equal, it's undoubtedly true that an introvert is somewhat more likely to suffer from stage fright than an extravert, but plenty of introverts take pretty naturally to the stage — or learn to overcome whatever discomfort they may be temperamentally prone to.

    It's also worth noting that, although Keirsey talks about all four NF types being strongly driven by the quest for self-identity, it's the INFs, not the ENFs, who tend to come out as Enneagram 4s. ENFs may well be the runners-up in the search-for-self department, but it doesn't tend to be the all-consuming core drive for them that it often is for INFs. They way your self-descriptions revolve around your identity issues has a significantly stronger INFP ring than ENFP ring to me.

    For what it's worth, here's some of the other E/I-related stuff in your posts, most of which has contributed to my I lean — but, again, I don't rule out a mild (neurotic) E:

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    - I hide my feelings
    - I hide the inner me and I dislike to open up too much, rather I show the "better" idealized me
    - I usually show up my cool, nevermind side when I get into troubles
    ...
    - Even though I want attention, I am very shy
    - I am not self confident
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I am too shy to be an extrovert, yet I am too sociable to be an introvert.
    ...
    I am sociable and talkative, but mostly with my friends. With strangers I am shy and quiet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I am private, but I love to welcome new people in my life.
    ...
    I love to get to know new people, I like to to talk, but I dislike when others know too much about me, so I am more reserved about who I am and I am harder to get to know, but I love to get to know others and I love to spend my time with others much more, than just by my own self... I am shy, reserved, but I hate to be alone and love to be with my friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I love to spend my time at parties, it's true I rather spend my time partying with my well known and close friends, but I can get pretty spontaneous and wild also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    While the emotions inside of me are almost always on fire I have my "cool" face. I love writing poetry to get all the emotions outside. It is a great way of expression
    On your tendency to hide many of your more intense feelings, I can't help reminding you that I've already quoted Jung explaining that "what fills the extravert's heart flows out of his mouth, but the enthusiasm of the introvert is the very thing that seals his lips."

    Enough from me, for now anyway.

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