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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    No, no, I don't mean that only intuitives are capable of thinking...I meant that I easily slip into analysis mode to the point of being oblivious to reality. It's a very pronounced characteristic to the point of people commenting on it when they first meet me.
    I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.

    Hmm. ESTJ. I was thinking about something with a lead rational function, Te/Ti/Fe/Fi. Why do you think not Ti or Fi?

  2. #52
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.

    Hmm. ESTJ. I was thinking about something with a lead rational function, Te/Ti/Fe/Fi. Why do you think not Ti or Fi?
    sorry, i'm not super familiar with the cognitive functions. you're saying to consider types where the dominant function is Ti or Fi, meaning INTP/ISTP/INFP/ISFP? i'm quite disciplined and rely on routines. i'm terrible at adapting and prepare for everything in advance. i'm pretty clearly a J.
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  3. #53
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    sorry, i'm not super familiar with the cognitive functions. you're saying to consider types where the dominant function is Ti or Fi, meaning INTP/ISTP/INFP/ISFP? i'm quite disciplined and rely on routines. i'm terrible at adapting and prepare for everything in advance. i'm pretty clearly a J.
    If there's ANYTHING I know about honor's type. It's that she's a J
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    sorry, i'm not super familiar with the cognitive functions. you're saying to consider types where the dominant function is Ti or Fi, meaning INTP/ISTP/INFP/ISFP? i'm quite disciplined and rely on routines. i'm terrible at adapting and prepare for everything in advance. i'm pretty clearly a J.
    Yeah, I didn't think so either, just curious about why you didn't think so. I'm still trying to figure out ways to differentiate Ti/Fi/Si/Ni in actual practice.

  5. #55
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Jung wrote that for sensors, the 'actual' refreshed their minds, that to discover truths of reality were of principle importance. I'm not quite sure if you're going towards sensing with these comments of being an analyzer, or away, as if only intuitors are capable of thinking?
    Well, it partly depends on what you mean by "truths of reality" and "analysis," but here's some of what Jung had to say about Se-doms:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    His life is an accumulation of actual experiences of concrete objects, and the more pronounced his type, the less use does he make of his experience. In certain cases the events in his life hardly deserve the name "experience" at all. What he experiences serves at most as a guide to fresh sensations; anything new that comes within his range of interest is acquired by way of sensation and has to serve its ends. Since one is inclined to regard a highly developed reality-sense as a sign of rationality, such people will be esteemed as very rational. But in actual fact this is not the case, since they are just as much at the mercy of their sensations in the face of irrational, chance happenings as they are in the face of rational ones. ... Once an object has given him a sensation, nothing more remains to be said or done about it. It cannot be anything except concrete and real; conjectures that go beyond the concrete are admitted only on condition that they enhance sensation.
    As for Si-doms: Far from being focused on "truths of reality," Jung said that Si-doms, together with the Ni-doms, were the most reality-challenged of the types. In describing what he referred to as "the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type," Jung said that an Si-dom "has an illusory conception of reality," and that the relation between the actual physical world and the Si-dom's perceptions of it is "unpredictable and arbitrary" — although "his lack of comparative judgment keeps him wholly unconscious of this fact."

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    No, no, I don't mean that only intuitives are capable of thinking...I meant that I easily slip into analysis mode to the point of being oblivious to reality. It's a very pronounced characteristic to the point of people commenting on it when they first meet me.
    I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.
    Just in case it's news to you, MBTI N's are the folks who choose the N side of questions like (from the current Step I MBTI) "If you were a teacher, would you rather teach (S) fact courses, or (N) courses involving theory?" and "Do you usually get along better with (N) imaginative people, or (S) realistic people?" and "Would you rather be considered (S) a practical person, or (N) an ingenious person?" and "Which word appeals to you most? (S) concrete or (N) abstract."

    Decades of data support the validity of the S/N dimension as so characterized, and it's widely believed — including by McCrae and Costa, the leading Big Five psychologists — that it's basically tapping into the same underlying dimension of human personality as the Big Five Openness to Experience factor, which types people with items like (from the NEO-PI) "I often enjoy playing with theories or abstract ideas (N)" and "I find philosophical arguments boring (S)" and "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity (N)."

    You're free to disagree with the MBTI's (and/or the Big Five's, and/or Jung's) conceptions of S and N if you like, but it seems a little silly to me for you to say "there is nothing written that evidences [Honor's] folkloric notion" that N's are somewhat more prone to find themselves lost in theoretical thought (at the expense of attention to reality) than S's.

  6. #56
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.

    Hmm. ESTJ. I was thinking about something with a lead rational function, Te/Ti/Fe/Fi. Why do you think not Ti or Fi?
    oops, i missed the first part of your post. i wasn't talking about being composed vs. being ambiguous. i'm a very composed person unless in extreme circumstances. i was talking about a tendency to rely on a data (S) vs. a tendency to find patterns in analyzed data (N). i've never really heard of an S being comfortable with complete ambiguity. the very nature of being S is about needing facts, evidence, data, etc.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Well, it partly depends on what you mean by "truths of reality" and "analysis," but here's some of what Jung had to say about Se-doms:

    As for Si-doms: Far from being focused on "truths of reality," Jung said that Si-doms, together with the Ni-doms, were the most reality-challenged of the types. In describing what he referred to as "the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type," Jung said that an Si-dom "has an illusory conception of reality," and that the relation between the actual physical world and the Si-dom's perceptions of it is "unpredictable and arbitrary" — although "his lack of comparative judgment keeps him wholly unconscious of this fact."
    None of this precludes the object-oriented nature of sensing, which is intuition's primary deficiency and why they will likely be at odds reconciling the innervations of thought against the substance of reality.

    Just in case it's news to you, MBTI N's are the folks who choose the N side of questions like (from the current Step I MBTI) "If you were a teacher, would you rather teach (S) fact courses, or (N) courses involving theory?" and "Do you usually get along better with (N) imaginative people, or (S) realistic people?" and "Would you rather be considered (S) a practical person, or (N) an ingenious person?" and "Which word appeals to you most? (S) concrete or (N) abstract."

    Decades of data support the validity of the S/N dimension as so characterized, and it's widely believed — including by McCrae and Costa, the leading Big Five psychologists — that it's basically tapping into the same underlying dimension of human personality as the Big Five Openness to Experience factor, which types people with items like (from the NEO-PI) "I often enjoy playing with theories or abstract ideas (N)" and "I find philosophical arguments boring (S)" and "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity (N)."

    You're free to disagree with the MBTI's (and/or the Big Five's, and/or Jung's) conceptions of S and N if you like, but it seems a little silly to me for you to say "there is nothing written that evidences [Honor's] folkloric notion" that N's are somewhat more prone to find themselves lost in theoretical thought (at the expense of attention to reality) than S's.
    It's things like this: "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity" that frees me of wonder from where the perceived superiority of intuition comes from.

    There are a lot of strange things going on in the dichotomies that are traditionally presented. For example, what is a theory but a collection of facts posited as a rule? Why should a sensor fail at conceptualization, when conceptualization's focus is of objective-based thinking?

    I don't buy into many of the correlations presented post-Jung.

  8. #58
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    None of this precludes the object-oriented nature of sensing, which is intuition's primary deficiency and why they will likely be at odds reconciling the innervations of thought against the substance of reality.



    It's things like this: "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity" that frees me of wonder from where the perceived superiority of intuition comes from.

    There are a lot of strange things going on in the dichotomies that are traditionally presented. For example, what is a theory but a collection of facts posited as a rule? Why should a sensor fail at conceptualization, when conceptualization's focus is of objective-based thinking?

    I don't buy into many of the correlations presented post-Jung.
    I don't either. The dichotomy is really about how much one relies on facts/data/evidence vs. pattern/impression/analysis.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Honor is typeless - transcends all types - bows only to truth and beauty (sorry i had to get it out of my chest, it's what comes to mind every time i read this thread title)

  10. #60
    girl with a pretty smile Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    Honor is typeless - transcends all types - bows only to truth and beauty (sorry i had to get it out of my chest, it's what comes to mind every time i read this thread title)
    Haha, I wish. Nice avi, pink.
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    Hive: arent you
    SpankyMcfly: wait... you arent?

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