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Thread: INFP or INTP?

  1. #21
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think INTP fits.
    Hmm...how so?
    "For a minute there, I lost myself...I lost myself."

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    Glancing at some of the posts, I get INTP vibes as well, and would agree with wit Infinite Bubble's point on inferior Fe.

    I'm now trying to clarify when things like the crow's nests or lower archetypes surface (Lenore has even apparently moved away from that, and still cautions about overusing Beebe's archetypes).

    What I go by now, to determine T/F is what I hope are better definitions. A focus on impersonal (or "technical") assessments of situations, or a focus on persona; or impersonal (I call it "humane") assessments. Just being human. Using the type theories for the betterment of humanity (self and others), rather than a purely technical set of variables that's either "cool" for its symmetries (Ti) or practical use (Te). (See http://erictb.wordpress.com/2013/06/...fication-of-tf)

    So I notice NFP's will toss around all this stuff for the Ne aspect (an abstract idea), but ultimately, it should be about self-improvement, and they'll eventually become impatient with impersonal theorizing. For NTP's, self improvement is like a added benefit, but they just like the hypothetical logical structure.

    So which do you identify with more? (To me, the long OP pondering all of this seems to point to a more impersonal outlook of it, though I'll have to read it again more closely. Inasmuch as you are addressing "personal"; i.e. "human-related" issues, it sounds more like an inferior reaction to the stresses of your life than a dominant {and internal} outlook. I also don't really see Thinking as looking inferior).
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  3. #23
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So I notice NFP's will toss around all this stuff for the Ne aspect (an abstract idea), but ultimately, it should be about self-improvement, and they'll eventually become impatient with impersonal theorizing. For NTP's, self improvement is like a added benefit, but they lust like the hypothetical logical structure.

    So which do you identify with more?
    Hmm...I guess a mix of both, it depends...though I'd probably lean the latter. I am huge on self improvement as I am of the belief that there is almost always (or always) room for error. While doing that I strive to be rational but also try to evaluate what I really want, although sometimes that may not be clear.

    But yes, I am of the belief that emotions should not get in the way of logical analysis, or any analysis -especially if you want a successful result (unless maybe in a situation where it involves someone I deeply care about, however when I mean logical analysis I mean solving a more technical problem, though this can apply to issues in more ethical situations such as relationships)

    Okay Ne, you can shut the fuck up now. (Heh :P)
    "For a minute there, I lost myself...I lost myself."

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  4. #24
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiesgonnadie View Post
    Hmm...how so?
    For what it's worth, here is my reasoning. I'm not so much paying attention to what you say you do. I'm reading what you write here. You talk about engaging in logical analysis but when I see you communicating, I don't see tremendous evidence of the logical precise Ti oriented analysis that a Ti dom would engage in. Your logical analysis seems rough at best which could be consistent with tertiary Te (ENFP) or inferior Te (INFP).

    In my mind, the most reliable way to ascertain a person's type is to look for specific evidence of functions being utilized and the best way to do that is to observe communication style. The top two functions are the most important ones. I'm intrigued by some other things go beyond the words and look at facial expressions and things like that. For now though, the best I have is what I'm seeing you write here.

    Finally, my sense is that the single biggest factor in type development is a strong auxiliary function. I normally presume a strong dominant function. When an introvert goes excessively into their head, it makes me think their dominant function needs to be better balanced by the auxiliary. Ne jumps out of all your communications though, so that seems inconsistent with that theory which doesn't help me to gain clarity on the matter.

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiesgonnadie View Post
    It's more of an intuitive vibe I get from their facial expressions and reactive demeanor towards me. However I've seen people say strong F + N functions can read between the lines like this. Although your reasoning towards Fe in this case makes sense.
    Yes, that sounds like Fe to me. I doubt Thinkers are except from this ability. I too can easily read people and am (probably) not an F. It could also be due in part to being sensitive to the signals because of SA. Also, you said the phrase "makes sense" towards my reasoning, which would be your Ji, but much more likely to be Ti, as you made the judgement that my reasoning was logically consistent to you.

    Interesting....however this sounds like Si + Fi to me. However I think I have a limited understanding so I'd like you to elaborate further on this. I agree that Si could evoke certain emotions but I don't think it would trigger a thinking function to make a judgment. However, I don't know for sure, just my thoughts...
    It's more likely to be Si + Fe, I think. Remember, Fe is orientated towards the outer world. Fe would have made the judgement. In the inferior position, it will be more likely to generate negative feelings towards the realm of people and/or society.

    I wouldn't say they are negative to me in general. I might have a tough time embracing them because I feel awkward and self conscious about it. When I am explaining something though, I may use them as what I like to call a "decoration" for the context of my statement, and trying to create some excitement for the listener. I can get passionate explaining things though, mainly things that I am fond of or things that fascinate me. It also clearly shows in the tone of my voice. I think this leans toward Fi but it could also have an sx attribution to it. Would you say it's the former, latter or something else?
    Feeling awkward/self-conscious indicates that it is not a natural state, and thus lower in the functional stack. To be honest, I think anyone will could get enthusiastic, but Ne really enjoys explaining new findings and subjects that fascinate the user, and trying to create excitement for the listener could be Fe, or perhaps you are insecure that you'd be boring without it (?). Yeah, Ne + Fe (which is how you tackle the world/exterior environment if you're INTP).

    Interesting....being content is something I strive for in life. Unless you meant something else.
    Well maybe, subconsciously, content is drab for you. If you watch a Disney movie, it should make you happy, but perhaps life events have hammered in the fact that life isn't innocent, sweetness and happily-ever-after story arcs. So it sickens you. The problem is, the brain gets into patterns that are good or harmful to it. Cynicism and that kind of general outlook has been cemented, so it rejects anything overly contradictory, because it feels unreal and untrue.

    Just a possible explanation.

    I wanted to add that if it affected me in a negative way I might be offended by it, however that might not say much.
    I'm not too sure. It could be Fi, it could be nothing. Can't really say.

    However one thing I didn't agree with in your analysis was not related to type but rather the construction - I think everything can relate to functions, instead of just pinpointing how a certain excerpt pertains to a an instinctual variant or enneatype/wing/trifix, and quite possibly vice versa. Unless you meant as a general rule it pertains to that excerpt more than anything else. Just my thoughts as I don't mean to sound like a nitpicking douche... :p
    I agree generally, but the different systems and your types in each one will have an effect on the other systems. An INTP Sx thinks and acts differently to an Sp one. An ENFP 3 will have different motivations and thus engage in different activities, typically, from a Type 7 one. The only issue is seeing which system is effecting which part of your patterns.

    Also your perception of SA - so unfortunately true! Sorry to hear you suffer from it as as well.
    Yeah, thankfully I'm getting some help and there's progress. I'm also slowly seeing who I truly am underneath, and am having to re-evaluate my type because of that (was typed INTJ before). So yeah, it really can cloud judgement where type and perception of self is concerned.

  6. #26
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    For what it's worth, here is my reasoning. I'm not so much paying attention to what you say you do. I'm reading what you write here. You talk about engaging in logical analysis but when I see you communicating, I don't see tremendous evidence of the logical precise Ti oriented analysis that a Ti dom would engage in. Your logical analysis seems rough at best which could be consistent with tertiary Te (ENFP) or inferior Te (INFP).
    Hm....could you give me an example of how I may be utilizing Te in one of my posts? Maybe highlight where you think it is showing up in my posts?

    Although if it helps, I was typed as INTJ by CT.

    Don't mean to bombard you with questions, just trying to get to the root of this.

  7. #27
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    Intriguing....Is the implication that "inferior Fe courtesy" makes the true nature of IXTP hidden? Perhaps as a defense?
    That could be one implication.

    I feel it is subversive to look squarely at the inferior ascribed by MBTI. I would analyze all seven that aren't Ti as inferiors, myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by louiesgonnadie View Post
    I've seen sources suggesting Jung stating T/F were rational while N/S irrational, and im wondering where you got this source that differs from those sources? I've never heard it explained that way. However, it does make more sense to me being T is to S and vice versa if we're looking at concrete vs abstract, conscious vs unconscious etc. However T/F also is stated by Jung as rational pertaining to judgement, while N/S pertains to perception. Confusing yet very interesting.
    Yeah, T/F = Rational, S/N = Irrational.

    The terms do not directly correlate to traditional usage in the English lexicon. He has a fairly extensive piece on his rationale regarding the distinction between the two, but essentially, he saw irrationals as directly subjective to experience while rationals were subject largely to extrapolation from experience. For example, he states extraverted irrational-doms (Se/Ne) often accrue more experience than they reflect on that experience. It is akin to the philosophical concept of one with a 'normal mind': the one that does not think about doing, but does, and in turn, sees clear. In this manner (so he states) extraverted irrational dominants are superior to rationals, because they do not prefer to extrapolate abstract information from experience. They are simply limited by the scope of their experience.

    Conversely, the rational rationalizes experience, and is wholly capable of incorrect conclusions about happenstance even beyond the sheer irrationality of chance events. Which is a weird duality between the term usage Jung decided, though I haven't really gotten into the introverted irrationals... they are by far the most difficult for most to understand, perhaps - Si and Ni.

  8. #28
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiesgonnadie View Post
    Hm....could you give me an example of how I may be utilizing Te in one of my posts? Maybe highlight where you think it is showing up in my posts?

    Although if it helps, I was typed as INTJ by CT.

    Don't mean to bombard you with questions, just trying to get to the root of this.

    I’ve read a little more of your posts here.

    It conflicts with what I've already said and there could be a good bit of of confirmation bias or projection in these comments but I could believe an INTJ typing and some sort of NiFi looping which could possibly explain some of the inferiorish Fi “poor me” thing going on. Here are some thoughts:

    1. The way you structured this post is similar to what an INTJ would do.

    http://personalitycafe.com/general-c...anymore-i.html

    Also your comments on being perfectionistic in your writing and finding the exact right words to express something are also INTJ-like.

    2. The way you are going around and around in your head on things - that mental popcorning - it is something that Ni doms have a strong tendency towards doing.

    3. You’ve indicated persistence is one of your strengths. I can see it in the way you keep coming back at me here. That is also very INTJ like.

    4. The serial obsessive interest in learning about and studying particular topics as you grew up – maybe it’s completely irrelevant but I did those things. There was Greek mythology, insect collecting, building and flying rockets, coin collecting, antique cars, chess, and many others. Maybe it is an NT thing. One item that struck me is your example about being interested in the weather, how you would build a separate world in your back yard and how much you enjoyed that. You were also very interested in the kind of weather that causes damage – storms and the like. This strikes me as interesting. Planning for contingencies? What is it that you enjoyed so much about this exactly? How does that relate to other things that are in your life now or could be in the future?

    5. You talked about that ability to focus and have a high level of concentration on things. Again, that tends to be an INTJ thing. You talk about being aloof and people making judgments based on that. Same.

    6. You were fascinated by the voting system in American Idol and the patterns surrounding it – how certain demographics and trends would affect the system and theories in general about the show. This could be an example of using Ni.

    7. You say you’ve had issues with anxiety, depression, ADD and things like that and have taken some meds for these things. The meds affect your behavior. I’ve heard this about Adderall. I recall there was a medication I took at one point when I was a child (for something else) that gave me a lot of energy. It would help to fuel these creative bursts. One specific example I recall was the time I came up with a design for a secret underground bunker in my backyard.

    8. Your comments on relationships – this sounds like Enneagram Sx.

    Anyway, I don't know if it helps but those are some random thoughts.

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  9. #29
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    1. The way you structured this post is similar to what an INTJ would do.

    http://personalitycafe.com/general-c...anymore-i.html

    Also your comments on being perfectionistic in your writing and finding the exact right words to express something are also INTJ-like.
    Can't a Ti user (albeit a heavy one such as Dom or aux) be perfectionistic with their words too? Although I guess Te could do this as well, probably not as often however since it has a briefer attitude and I don't see it re-adjusting for accuracy as much as Ti would, which I actually tend to do quite a bit, a few times in this post to be more specific. However you may be right about the structure, the categorization of the units does look INTJish. However I still think its Ne trying to connect ideas forming it into a web, though its possible Te ordered Ne to form that web, which could explain the categorization. Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    2. The way you are going around and around in your head on things - that mental popcorning - it is something that Ni doms have a strong tendency towards doing.
    Hmm....this is interesting. I think it could just be a result of strong N as well, but does it resemble your process since you are Ni-Dom? I personally don't see strong Ni in me but it is the function I know the least about so what do I know?

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    3. You’ve indicated persistence is one of your strengths. I can see it in the way you keep coming back at me here. That is also very INTJ like.
    True, but I'd attrubute it to Ne as well, throwing more possibilities in the mix, and the Ji-dominance makes sense of it, forming rebuttals. However that could be a vague observation of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    4. The serial obsessive interest in learning about and studying particular topics as you grew up – maybe it’s completely irrelevant but I did those things. There was Greek mythology, insect collecting, building and flying rockets, coin collecting, antique cars, chess, and many others. Maybe it is an NT thing. One item that struck me is your example about being interested in the weather, how you would build a separate world in your back yard and how much you enjoyed that. You were also very interested in the kind of weather that causes damage – storms and the like. This strikes me as interesting. Planning for contingencies? What is it that you enjoyed so much about this exactly? How does that relate to other things that are in your life now or could be in the future?
    One thing that did fascinate me about weather was how certain things were categorized and how these categories would differ from each other, or correlate to each other. Im not sure why I thought this was so cool though, but I used to watch the weather channel all the time and I was fascinated by map layouts and such which ultimately got me into geography a little bit. This does seem like Ne to me as it is forming a web of information all interconnected with each other, however the emphasis of categorization could suggest Te, maybe even an unconscious form of Te? I still have somewhat of an interest in it but I kind of gave up searching for a meteorology job for complicated reasons, however I'd like to pursue it as a hobby. But maybe in the future I'd consider a job if I think it really feels right and I want to have a career in that field, something I'd enjoy doing. That is something that is important to me, having a career that I like doing, mainly towards the end of my life though.

    As a side note, I would like to state as a raw opinion of mine that INTJs probably make the best meteorologists.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    5. You talked about that ability to focus and have a high level of concentration on things. Again, that tends to be an INTJ thing. You talk about being aloof and people making judgments based on that. Same.
    True, I've seen some videos of INTJs and some can appear aloof. But I think INxPs are more prone to it. I think it could have something to do with the extroverted function of an INxP being Pe, which is adaptive, while INxJs have aux Je which is directive. So when explaining things, in extravert mode, a Je aux user will appear more blunt, to the point and focused on reality while a aux Pe user may be more detached while expressing their points, or less "matter of fact", and have a tendency to ramble on. However, I've also heard that a Ji-dominant user can be somewhat directive communicating as well, but since the function is introverted, it appears different than Je directive communication, also depends on where it is placed in the archetypical order. But I think that does fit me well. However I'm not so sure about this, I just remember @DJ Arendee talking about something like this in a couple of videos. Maybe he can explain this better than me (and apologies if he doesn't want to be thrown into this clusterfuck of a debate, I give him free reign to complain)

    Also, the intense focus or desire to dig deeper into a subject could be an enneagram 5 thing, though any head triad type can get into a high focus zone from time to time as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    6. You were fascinated by the voting system in American Idol and the patterns surrounding it – how certain demographics and trends would affect the system and theories in general about the show. This could be an example of using Ni.
    It was more focused on the present moment, however I would look to the future to come up with possibilities of what could happen. Unfortunately this was a while ago, and I was a kid so I can't accurately remember or pinpoint my thought process as it seems unclear.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    8. Your comments on relationships – this sounds like Enneagram Sx.
    I agree.

    As far as Ni goes, one thing that I've heard about Ni users is they have a goal or two in mind, and they rapidly hone in on it, trying to find ways to achieve it (could be Te there). I can relate to this a bit, however there are times where my desires and goals change so the process for me is more scattered. Plus the best example of this might have something to do with my feelings, which I can have difficulty controlling sometimes. I think my feelings may guide me towards it since I really want it to happen. A lot of people will probably say this is Fi, however it could be an unconscious form of F since I am going for what I like here, usually focusing on the positive aspects of how I feel about it (which always win out) and not looking at all of the logical aspects of the situation or at times rejecting them, because I want to make myself happy or satisfied, even at times making me irrational. To be more specific, this happens when I am experiencing infatuation. @Eric B 's link that he posted about T vs F suggests this, however I'm not sure if it is an unconscious form of Fe or Fi, or something else. Would you say it matches, Eric?

    Also, highlander, you did initially perceive high Ne in my posts, and now you seem skeptical of it. What made you lose uncertainty of that? Just curious.

    Sorry if I am being nitpicky about this, heh.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiesgonnadie View Post
    Can't a Ti user (albeit a heavy one such as Dom or aux) be perfectionistic with their words too? Although I guess Te could do this as well, probably not as often however since it has a briefer attitude and I don't see it re-adjusting for accuracy as much as Ti would, which I actually tend to do quite a bit, a few times in this post to be more specific. However you may be right about the structure, the categorization of the units does look INTJish. However I still think its Ne trying to connect ideas forming it into a web, though its possible Te ordered Ne to form that web, which could explain the categorization. Interesting.
    I was thinking of answering that as well, but I guess I was trying to get to bed last night.

    I am very perfectionistic with my words. Many of my posts I edit several times after, in addition to my blog posts. Precision of language is usually associated with Ti. (Sometimes conciseness as well, but sometimes that's associated with Te, and I would go along with that one, because conciseness is about the external efficiency, and preciseness is basically about internal efficiency even as it is expressed outwardly). We do try to be concise, but it's hard when so deeply breaking everything down, as Ti does.
    True, I've seen some videos of INTJs and some can appear aloof. But I think INxPs are more prone to it. I think it could have something to do with the extroverted function of an INxP being Pe, which is adaptive, while INxJs have aux Je which is directive. So when explaining things, in extravert mode, a Je aux user will appear more blunt, to the point and focused on reality while a aux Pe user may be more detached while expressing their points, or less "matter of fact", and have a tendency to ramble on. However, I've also heard that a Ji-dominant user can be somewhat directive communicating as well, but since the function is introverted, it appears different than Je directive communication, also depends on where it is placed in the archetypical order. But I think that does fit me well.
    I would think IT in general is "aloof". (I would call IT, ET, IF, EF the "social image" groups).
    INTP is different from the other IT's in being the sole "informative" (where the others, including ISTP, are "directive"). So we'll seem a little less "dry" or serious than the others. Still, the I and T will nevertheless create an aloof surface persona. And while not directive (which is about Interaction styles), we are structure focused (which is connected to the Keirsey temperament), which is like "directive" (task rather than people focused) on another level. (TJ's will be both directive and structure focused, hence "the most directive").

    As far as Ni goes, one thing that I've heard about Ni users is they have a goal or two in mind, and they rapidly hone in on it, trying to find ways to achieve it (could be Te there). I can relate to this a bit, however there are times where my desires and goals change so the process for me is more scattered. Plus the best example of this might have something to do with my feelings, which I can have difficulty controlling sometimes. I think my feelings may guide me towards it since I really want it to happen. A lot of people will probably say this is Fi, however it could be an unconscious form of F since I am going for what I like here, usually focusing on the positive aspects of how I feel about it (which always win out) and not looking at all of the logical aspects of the situation or at times rejecting them, because I want to make myself happy or satisfied, even at times making me irrational. To be more specific, this happens when I am experiencing infatuation. Eric B 's link that he posted about T vs F suggests this, however I'm not sure if it is an unconscious form of Fe or Fi, or something else. Would you say it matches, Eric?
    "feelings" in that sense is not F, but F is about being more aware of them. Unconscious F, I'm still trying to square away how to relate with conscious F, general "feelings", and the attitudes. One one hand, each type has associated attitudes for each function, so that a T type will have Fi if TJ, and Fe if TP. However, in the ongoing discussion of undifferentiated or "concretistic" functions, it's being pointed out sometimes that undifferentiated function doesn't really have an attitude. So I'm trying to figure that one out. The best solution is what was given me, that the eight function attitudes are associated with the complexes in the ego's structure. The dominant or "hero" being the ego itself, and the others falling into place accordingly. So if you want to identify which particular attitude of Feeling when feeling guided by "feelings", you would have to identify a complex.

    When I'm having feelings involving "life giving energy" (let's say imagining how nice it would be out on a sunny day with someone I love), that would be the Anima, which will associate specifically with Fe. Then I could see how it is totally externally oriented, (even though it's felt deeply inside, of course). If it's a more serious situation, where the ego feels severely threatened, and I'm worked up with a passion to combat the threat, that's likely what would be called a Demonic projection, and involve Fi. Usually, there's an internal sense that I'm being devalued (even though it's being projected to the outside).
    The two are connected, because threatening the anima with external rejection via Fe will trigger the Demon with its internal rejection via Fi. So it can be very ambiguous even then.
    Then there's also the "Crow's Nest" concept again, and I'm still also trying to contrast that with the complex constellation.

    Otherwise, what you describe may simply be the "unconscious" F. An example from Jung was the difference between "falling in love" (which is just a limbic reaction; that would basically be "infatuation") and "loving" (which is conscious).

    I just did this comment on one of my other articles http://erictb.wordpress.com/2013/06/...s/#comment-838 where I try to break it all down from scratch.
    (It is something I had written out on my phone but lost (on a note pad where if you erase it, there's no "undo" to get it back, so I had to try to type it over from memory the other day, and it still needs emphasis formatting, so it's still probably not completely finished).
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