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  1. #11
    jump sleuthiness's Avatar
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    An uber ornery example of sp/sx, but I still think you're too homogenized in expression not to be e65 and misinterpreting infpness for 4ness so you'll live up to your inner ideal.

    The focus on propriety down to the minutiae, not so much painfully thorough and alienating as muddied like a pen bleeding out across a flat, glossy surface. I've e6 molecular biologist relatives who can rattle on anything they'd like- probably have an impressive body of work within their highly respected field I can't begin to question but it all collapses under its own weight outside their little bubble: they're weird and awkward when pinned down due their inability to put ideas into motion which, under direct sunlight, transforms nearby sx/sp e56 intjs into presidential candidate material. Moral of the story is you demand to be seen as a respected figure who knows how to use the works of other, more highly respected figures in order to make points about realities that exist on self sustainance on this forum, or attack much heralded shrines like Mary Jo to stir controversy or Christopher Hitchens' sixty year farewell tour, there's zero correlation to reality, zero relevance, though maybe you secretly realize that and despise yourself for it, but the show must go on. I don't think I'd be any more likely to read this post if I hadn't already written it.

    thinking of you

  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    @OrangeAppled
    Hi, I've seen you around on several forums, so thought I'd give you a friendly Hello.

    I can identify with much you have written here myself, though I type as sp-last (I did originally type as sp/sx, though--and I see myself in the 4 instincts about equally). I too fit the criteria of Naranjo’s sp4--tenacious, stoic, and able to endure anything. I don't reach out easily or share my burdens. I can indulge and neglect myself in equal parts …etc. Of course! I’m a four! I’m also likely Fi-dom, which is just going to make outward stoicism stronger; I’m also 8 and 6 fixed, so I’m big on self-protection, with a reckless edge (I think I heard you say you don’t go in for tritype, but I find it extremely apt in my case). So it’s worth considering which facets of your personality correspond to what, and what overlaps, and why.

    As I’m sure you know, it’s most important to check motivations--what brings out your 4ness? Self-pres issues? Sexual? Social? I find that I’m most 4ish in regards to other people--I can’t think of a single time that an sp issue set me off in that manner. If anything, sp worries have sparked 6ish reactions…never a 4 reaction. Sx issues, on the other hand, set off total rejection as well as feelings of deprivation, torment, jealousy, and hatred. Anyway, that was what I found most helpful in determining my stacking, so I thought I’d pass along the word (I’m still open to discussion on it, incidentally).
    I thought it was just being a 4 to be this way? Much about the sx instinct is relatable to me when not described as connected to a type, but that's because it just sounds 4ish. I am surprised when sx last 4s don't mention the obsession with finding a romantic partner, the desire for an insane level of intensity & intimacy, the fickleness in your infatuations, etc.

    It also helped me to think of which area was “most comfortable” to me (i.e., the secondary instinct)--I tend to have a lot of fun with social issues and enjoy screwing with everyone’s expectations; I’m also very keen on the news, social issues, world affairs, and human interactions, which is why I type as soc-second. It’s not an area where I get overly “neurotic”. (Of course, as a 4w5, I do see myself in most descriptions of the social blindspot.) Is there a sphere which is more comfortable to you in that regard? It could be your secondary instinct.
    I have little to no interest in those things. I've mentioned in another thread that I only start to care & invest energy in the social realm when I see it has affected my ability to find work or a romantic partner. Then I'm like, "uh oh - I need a network!". Unawareness of my own reputation has bitten me in the butt before also.

    The spere I am most comfortable in socially would be a message board like this or the one-on-one thing with a close friend or new favorite. As a child, I always had to have a "best friend". I just wanted ONE person to have a special niche with, to be extremely close to, to be able to get very intense with. I relate this to social because it's niche-seeking, for a withdrawn type anyway.

    I navigate my church scene okay, but only in recent years. I was sort of a hermit for awhile and convinced no one could understand me & that I fit nowhere.

    I do get quite neurotic with social things. I frequently think people in my social circle all really dislike me & I go home in despair thinking I'm just doomed to be unlikable or something. I seem to ping between hyper-sensitivity to acceptance/rejection and a total indifference & unawareness of what others' think of me. Sometimes it doesn't even seem like anything sets this off, just random moods which feel like reality when they occur, and I trust so implicitly in my moods that I can't see how much they distort until some larger signal squashes them & I realize what a fool I've been.

    But this is an interesting idea - what is "most comfortable". I am MOST comfortable with sp things. I love my creature comforts & being independent & able to indulge myself, and when not, I bust my butt to find a way. But I don't stress about financial security or health issues. I do get out-of-whack in caring for myself, but some of this can just be extroverted perceiving or e4 in general.

    As for sx, I feel like this gets played out within my head more than reality, which is why I feel it's not first for me.

    I also found it instructive to observe sp-firsts in determining it as my blindspot. People of the dominant instinct you lack...really can be annoying. I find myself constantly thinking, "Why do you care about this?" "Stop messing around!" "WHO CARES???" "Nothing bad will happen!" every time an sp-first starts getting neurotic on me. Social and sx issues don't set this off to nearly the same degree--I even tend to commiserate. Your blindspot will grate you.

    Just some food for thought.
    I react that way to my sp-dom e6 mom, who thinks death lies around every street corner. Her paranoia aggravates me a lot, but I have that response to e6 & their boogeymen frequently when it starts to rain on my parade. Of course, that is just mom stuff, but this attitude in others strikes me as paranoid also. I don't relate to the opposite either; I'm no daredevil. I just like luxury & don't bother my pretty head about crime or financial security. When I'm in a rundown area, my first thoughts will be of how ugly it is, not worry about getting mugged or something.

    The stuff about so that grates me could just be e4 or INFP stuff too. I dislike social protocol, dislike all the red-tape in navigating life because of it, dislike not being able to just say things without following some script of what is nice, etc. But I actually mostly see so stuff as MAGICAL when it's the stereotypical so type who is good at finding a niche with people. I experience so stuff as complicated & a pain in the butt for me but admirable in others because of it. Now so-dom who suffer from the shyness/outcast side of the instinct are relatable to me though, but they seem to suffer from hyper-awareness of the social protocol vs obliviousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    ^Your description of sp-firsts in your last paragraph is more sp 6. I'm sp-first and I don't "worry" about something "bad" happening. I think instincts need to be looked at in relation to your core type.
    Yeah, many sp-dom descriptions sound too 6 for me as well. If I interpret through e4, then it sounds more like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by sleuthiness View Post
    An uber ornery example of sp/sx, but I still think you're too homogenized in expression not to be e65 and misinterpreting infpness for 4ness so you'll live up to your inner ideal.

    The focus on propriety down to the minutiae, not so much painfully thorough and alienating as muddied like a pen bleeding out across a flat, glossy surface. I've e6 molecular biologist relatives who can rattle on anything they'd like- probably have an impressive body of work within their highly respected field I can't begin to question but it all collapses under its own weight outside their little bubble: they're weird and awkward when pinned down due their inability to put ideas into motion which, under direct sunlight, transforms nearby sx/sp e56 intjs into presidential candidate material. Moral of the story is you demand to be seen as a respected figure who knows how to use the works of other, more highly respected figures in order to make points about realities that exist on self sustainance on this forum, or attack much heralded shrines like Mary Jo to stir controversy or Christopher Hitchens' sixty year farewell tour, there's zero correlation to reality, zero relevance, though maybe you secretly realize that and despise yourself for it, but the show must go on. I don't think I'd be any more likely to read this post if I hadn't already written it.
    Nah. But nice try. You do realize you describe someone quite concerned with their image, don't you? "Demanding to be seen as". I also see you describing resentment towards others' images, especially if I may feel they don't "deserve" it. And I put on a "show". Come now - you're arguing for me being an image type.

    Maybe I need it spelled out more clearly (too much to ask of you, I know), but I don't see the connection to 6 fear/cowardice with your points here.

    -------

    Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I think the sp/sx typing makes the most sense for me. Being so or sx dom just seem to ask one to be more of a focus & the other to be stronger than it seems to be, respectively.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #13
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    Your descriptions remind me a lot of myself(I engage in reckless self mutilation by squeezing my spots) so maybe you are the same instinct stack as me (whichever fucking one I am.) Either that or the Forer effect is clouding my perception again.

    My advice would be to stop worrying about it, it would suck to fall into an Fi-Si loop where you mine through past experiences relentlessly to gain evidence to support a conclusion. I think probably instinct stacking, enneagram and MBTI are all bullshit but stacking is probably the worst of the three.

  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Your descriptions remind me a lot of myself(I engage in reckless self mutilation by squeezing my spots) so maybe you are the same instinct stack as me (whichever fucking one I am.) Either that or the Forer effect is clouding my perception again.

    My advice would be to stop worrying about it, it would suck to fall into an Fi-Si loop where you mine through past experiences relentlessly to gain evidence to support a conclusion. I think probably instinct stacking, enneagram and MBTI are all bullshit but stacking is probably the worst of the three.
    I've considered making a thread about excessive skin picking as a form of self-mutilation (making yourself ugly on purpose to repulse people), but I'm afraid people will think it's like cutting & it will get tagged as being some emo attention seeking thing. I'm not sure if there's a point to discussing it, basically. If anyone else has engaged in "skin picking" to an extreme point, rep or pm me & I'll consider making a thread about it.

    I don't think it's all BS, but it can be a little too "neat". It gives me a vocab to discuss these elements I see within people that are similar to each other & produce certain outward patterns also. But it's just like outward appearance - you can have hair color categories that most people can be grouped into easily, yet that doesn't change the fact that there are actually infinite hair colors. Nor does it change the fact that however much you classify elements of the outer appearance, there are some aspects which affect the appearance that fall outside these categories. These systems just cannot explain a whole person & everything they do & why they do it.

    In short, I feel like saying someone is enneagram 4 (or whatever) is akin to saying someone has red hair. Or saying they're sp/sx is like saying their more specific shade of red is auburn.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #15
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    I agree with your statement that the theory tries (and fails) to capture a person in a labelled box, though I must admit that I don't squeeze spots to repulse others (that's what flatulence and belching in public are for). I find squeezing them exciting, a moment of fleeting bliss. That's all.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I've considered making a thread about excessive skin picking as a form of self-mutilation (making yourself ugly on purpose to repulse people), but I'm afraid people will think it's like cutting & it will get tagged as being some emo attention seeking thing. I'm not sure if there's a point to discussing it, basically. If anyone else has engaged in "skin picking" to an extreme point, rep or pm me & I'll consider making a thread about it.
    I've had that problem as well. There's also someone I knew back in high school that had this exact same issue (she mentioned it once, don't know what compelled her to reveal such information lol). Coincidentally, I typed her as 4. I've read about it once as being related to a poor self-image, which I suppose, goes hand in hand with core 4.

    Regarding your instincts.... I think you got it right. At least I find myself (self-typed sp-dom) nodding in agreement with your description. Also, imo (gathering from various sources and internal experience), when dauntless is attributed to sp 4, it's more neglect (which gets perceived as recklessness or dauntlessness) of present consequences in an effort to achieve an inner ideal. Might take a job on the other side of the world at the drop of a dime, disregarding any concern for the pragmatic "immediate," and trying to embody that inner ideal (perhaps they romanticize life as an expatriate). I've upped and gone with only a map and a vague sense of where I'm going, but strong sense of embodying a sort of ideal life. I'm not always like this. It's just I get sick of how crappily mundane my life is. I don't think I look like a "risk taker," whatever that is. I'm pretty contained behaviorally I think, which might get conflated with e1/e9 demeanor. But I've taken risks and have done stupid things in the past in an effort to achieve this inner aesthetic of how I want my life to be.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I thought it was just being a 4 to be this way? Much about the sx instinct is relatable to me when not described as connected to a type, but that's because it just sounds 4ish. I am surprised when sx last 4s don't mention the obsession with finding a romantic partner, the desire for an insane level of intensity & intimacy, the fickleness in your infatuations, etc.
    I could be just 4ish to be that way--or all the ways we're mentioning here! XD

    That was part of why I was extremely hesitant to type this way, actually. I can tell you in my case, that I've actually hurt people on those grounds, however, and I have big issues with the sexual instinct when I read about it. I'm always like, "Well, that's not me!" as a knee-jerk response. I first typed as soc/sp or sp/soc till I did some more research (I am open to being sx-last still--given my issues with it, I feel like it's first or last).

    I have little to no interest in those things. I've mentioned in another thread that I only start to care & invest energy in the social realm when I see it has affected my ability to find work or a romantic partner. Then I'm like, "uh oh - I need a network!". Unawareness of my own reputation has bitten me in the butt before also.
    ...me too, though (for the bolded). Most of my soc seems to get played out "in theory" rather than in reality. My sister is a soc-4, and her over-awareness of this stuff always impresses me. I'm not sure how much the social instinct involves forming a social network, and how much it involves being aware of others and how they relate to the self. Though your lack of awareness to reputation strongly suggests soc-last, so you seem to be right on those grounds.
    The spere I am most comfortable in socially would be a message board like this or the one-on-one thing with a close friend or new favorite. As a child, I always had to have a "best friend". I just wanted ONE person to have a special niche with, to be extremely close to, to be able to get very intense with. I relate this to social because it's niche-seeking, for a withdrawn type anyway.
    Yeah...

    I think that whole "best friend" thing is supposed to be sx-first related--we tend to get neurotic among our intimates, tend towards that "You can't have any other friends!" thing. I've never been told it's linked to anything else, anyway.

    I do get quite neurotic with social things. I frequently think people in my social circle all really dislike me & I go home in despair thinking I'm just doomed to be unlikable or something. I seem to ping between hyper-sensitivity to acceptance/rejection and a total indifference & unawareness of what others' think of me. Sometimes it doesn't even seem like anything sets this off, just random moods which feel like reality when they occur, and I trust so implicitly in my moods that I can't see how much they distort until some larger signal squashes them & I realize what a fool I've been.
    I guess that's something all 4s do as well--not sure how much is specifically social related here. It can be tricky to suss out for double-withdrawns, but I suppose the best thing to do is just go by motivations. You've already mentioned that you don't have much interest in the larger social world, which could otherwise be one indication of social. I guess you could look at the role you take in regards to the group--do you find it easy to ignore that stuff (beyond the neuroses you've just touched upon, I mean), or do you find that you focus on the group even while hating it? It's the difference between apathy and hatred, I guess.

    But this is an interesting idea - what is "most comfortable". I am MOST comfortable with sp things. I love my creature comforts & being independent & able to indulge myself, and when not, I bust my butt to find a way. But I don't stress about financial security or health issues. I do get out-of-whack in caring for myself, but some of this can just be extroverted perceiving or e4 in general.

    As for sx, I feel like this gets played out within my head more than reality, which is why I feel it's not first for me.
    I could see either as dominant, definitely. I guess the question would be, how much does stuff play out in reality for a withdrawn? I'm not the crazy flaming person I associate with sx-firsts, myself. I'm not a big flirt, I haven't had too many relationships. I'm not "out of control" with the intensity or anything. So, it can be tricky. Still, I'd keep your comfort levels in mind--it's one possible way to look at this question.

    [QUOTE]
    I react that way to my sp-dom e6 mom, who thinks death lies around every street corner. Her paranoia aggravates me a lot, but I have that response to e6 & their boogeymen frequently when it starts to rain on my parade. Of course, that is just mom stuff, but this attitude in others strikes me as paranoid also. I don't relate to the opposite either; I'm no daredevil. I just like luxury & don't bother my pretty head about crime or financial security. When I'm in a rundown area, my first thoughts will be of how ugly it is, not worry about getting mugged or something.
    Oh, I've got a lovely 6-fix, so I do think of getting mugged sometimes (and I've actually been mugged before, so it's not always on my mind, obviously). Look for sp's of other types and see how their neuroses mesh with yours.

    The stuff about so that grates me could just be e4 or INFP stuff too. I dislike social protocol, dislike all the red-tape in navigating life because of it, dislike not being able to just say things without following some script of what is nice, etc. But I actually mostly see so stuff as MAGICAL when it's the stereotypical so type who is good at finding a niche with people. I experience so stuff as complicated & a pain in the butt for me but admirable in others because of it. Now so-dom who suffer from the shyness/outcast side of the instinct are relatable to me though, but they seem to suffer from hyper-awareness of the social protocol vs obliviousness.
    Your case is tricky, but intriguing. A lot of what you mention does seem to be Fi-dom, 4w5 related rather than a blow against soc-instinct. I guess I'll just repeat the same advice--see which one is neurotic, which is comfortable, and which one feels like an obstruction when it's neurotic in other people.

    Hope that was remotely useful.

    (Also feel free to present any observations of my instincts to me at any time in the future if you notice something )



    Edit: OH, AND--I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on which way you feel the "envy" plays out through the instincts.

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