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  1. #11
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    OP strikes me as thoroughly INTP.

    Also...

    NOBODY but NOBODY, I would wager, goes through mental arguments using formal logical systems, if only because the Fregean logic system we've been given, with &, or, ~/not, ->, <--> etc. operators are inadequate to describe many of the statements that we ordinarily use. If you consider the nature of the material conditional and all the issues we have with 'if' statements, Bayesian and Frequentist debates, you'll realize that... for instance, the inability to make universal statements even using universal evidence... that's a poor way of explaining something of the quandary one faces with a situation like... there have NEVER been any recorded instances of a man living past 180 years of age... hence, it is impossible for men to live to 181 years of age. That clearly goes against what a reasonable person would think... if a guy lives to 180, then other people could possibly also live to 181 or more.

    Logic needn't be cut and dried, as a lot of people assume (I'm not saying you are, but much of the debate on Thinking types seems to rely on these sorts of assumptions).

    Also, the issue with using what Owl said about value judgments... it raises some questions... a "thinker" ultimately needs to have some sort of a value system... what is 'right'? What sort of thinking is correct? What axioms does one use? Thinkers have to deal with masses of unproven statements to base their arguments off of. Thinkers have to make gut-feel decisions, if only at the beginning, in order to continue... everyone needs a value system... even physicists must accept large numbers of empty concepts or circular arguments off of which to build more elaborate and fleshed-out systems (what exactly are mass and force? gravity?)
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  2. #12
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Logic needn't be cut and dried, as a lot of people assume (I'm not saying you are, but much of the debate on Thinking types seems to rely on these sorts of assumptions).
    Absolutely agree.

  3. #13
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Oy vey!!!



    EVERYBODY FEELS!!! (except, perhaps, for sociopaths or those who suffer from alexithymia, though I'd even argue that they too feel, in the "human" sense, to some degree).

    Feeling is more of a universal trait than that of "thinking".

    Most people engage in both thinking and feeling experiential processes, on a daily basis, I'd confidently argue.

    Thinkers, I think, have more difficulty coping with their "humanness" if you will because they, lol, *feel* uncomfortable with their feelings.

    My feelings, my instincts, my intuitions, my compassion and empathy tend to steer me in the right direction, it is only when I over-think and analyze the world and people into meaningless pieces, that I, as a "feeler", begin to feel uncomfortable and ill at ease.

    I am both an atheist, and a physicalist, things exist in reality, or they don't.

    My realism, and hence, my realistic perspective on things often reeks havoc on my feeling sensibilities.

    ^ Sorry if that made little sense or lacked relevance...

    Anyhow, I know that I am an NF, and even more specifically an ENFP, because I have always been guided by my intuition and empathy. I tend to "know" things before I understand them, and I tend to feel a lot more comfortable synthesizing information than I do excessively analyzing it. Also, I am way, super-duper about holistic/transcendent ideas concepts than I am about, what I view to be, trivial scraps of minutia-detailed-information.

    Also, I really fucking care about people, almost to a fault. I want and seek out for people, including myself, to understand themselves and their lives better, I enjoy observing and making people *sincerely* happy.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #14
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    NOBODY but NOBODY, I would wager, goes through mental arguments using formal logical systems, if only because the Fregean logic system we've been given, with &, or, ~/not, ->, <--> etc. operators are inadequate to describe many of the statements that we ordinarily use.
    Yes, this is what I thought. However, many definitions of thinking as a cognitive process associate it more or less absolutely with logical systems. The problem is- we haven't even been able to fully systematize the many ways that humans reason. So how can we reason from systems that are (or have yet to be fully) derived from the way we reason?

  5. #15
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post

    A thinking type has no need to engage the feeling function, but the feeling type *must* engage the thinking function.

    Anyway, I'm curious...how do you know so assuredly that you are an NF? What about yourself do you attribute to the feeling function?
    It's a mistake to automatically presume that a Thinker is without impressive emotional range, consequent to his cognitive preferences. Compassion and justice are variable ideals; individually-resigned to shades of the same coin...

    Conversely, some of the greatest strategists I've encountered were Fs. Lao Tzu is perhaps a historical example of a brilliant NF (INFP) tactician.

    For my dime, the ideal framework is a balanced incorporation of both theatres to arrive at an assemblage free from the constrictions of generic Type convention. That is to say, I don't find much credibility with the implied if/then algorithim that commonly divides a T from an F.

    Think of it like chemical covalence - protons and neutrons combining into subatomic particles. From these interactions, all matter is possible...(Hilbert space...!)

    Neither is ultimately independent, as both unify towards advanced thought.

  6. #16
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    EVERYBODY FEELS!!! (except, perhaps, for sociopaths or those who suffer from alexithymia, though I'd even argue that they too feel, in the "human" sense, to some degree).

    Feeling is more of a universal trait than that of "thinking".

    Most people engage in both thinking and feeling experiential processes, on a daily basis, I'd confidently argue.

    Thinkers, I think have more difficulty coping with their "humanness" if you will because they, lol, *feel* uncomfortable with their feelings.
    I get the impression that you are still using the term "feeling" to mean "the experience of emotion". From what I have read of Jung, the "experience of emotion" is actually called "affect". And yes, I would agree that *everyone* experiences and are affected by emotions.

    But this has nothing to do with feeling as a cognitive process, which is a judging function that may or may not have anything to do with momentary emotions (most likely not, from what I understand).

    Anyhow, I know that I am an NF, and even more specifically an ENFP, because I have always been guided by my intuition and empathy. I tend to "know" things before I understand them, and I tend to feel a lot more comfortable synthesizing information than I do excessively analyzing it. Also, I am way, super-duper about holistic/transcendent ideas concepts than I am about, what I view to be, trivial scraps of minutia-detailed-information.
    Aren't the intuitive functions (Ne/Ni) present in both NF's and NT's?

    Thank you for responding .

  7. #17
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Conversely, some of the greatest strategists I've encountered were Fs. Lao Tzu is perhaps a historical example of a brilliant NF (INFP) tactician.
    Lao Tzu is, hands down, one of the wisest men I've come across.

    But, c'mon now, Night, do you honestly view him as a brilliant "tactician"?

    Surely... you must be kidding, right?

    Sun Tzu, on the other hand, now *he* was a brilliant tactician.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #18
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Lao Tzu is, hands down, one of the wisest men I've come across.

    But, c'mon now, Night, do you honestly view him as a brilliant "tactician"?
    Much moreso, actually.

    Spirituality is a far more controversial field than warfare.

  9. #19
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Yes, this is what I thought. However, many definitions of thinking as a cognitive process associate it more or less absolutely with logical systems. The problem is- we haven't even been able to fully systematize the many ways that humans reason. So how can we reason from systems that are (or have yet to be fully) derived from the way we reason?
    Yes! YES!!! YES!!!!!!!!



    I think we should start a thread to really flesh out these distinctions (i.e. thinking/feeling) in MBTI typing.... I know they've been discussed, but there's more work to be done... there's always more work to be done... so much work.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #20
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    It's a mistake to automatically presume that a Thinker is without impressive emotional range, consequent to his cognitive preferences. Compassion and justice are variable ideals; individually-resigned to shades of the same coin...

    Conversely, some of the greatest strategists I've encountered were Fs. Lao Tzu is perhaps a historical example of a brilliant NF (INFP) tactician.

    For my dime, the ideal framework is a balanced incorporation of both theatres to arrive at an assemblage free from the constrictions of generic Type convention. That is to say, I don't find much credibility with the implied if/then algorithim that commonly divides a T from an F.

    Think of it like chemical covalence - protons and neutrons combining into subatomic particles. From these interactions, all matter is possible...

    Neither is ultimately independent, as both unify towards advanced thought.
    But I meant feeling as a judging process, which supposedly takes objects in the real world and sorts them according to value/worth/righteousness/whatever. I have no doubt that thinking types experience emotion. But how can a person use two judging processes at once (with one to a lesser or greater degree given preference)? Or are you saying that a person can use either according to the situation?

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