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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    What I mean by that is MBTI is just another construct of human understanding, a methodology built on certain premises, with a view to organising and more readily understanding one another. However it was created by humans and as such it is not infallible.
    I'm beginning to see that, after all it isn't the most... scientific theory.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dani View Post
    I'm beginning to see that, after all it isn't the most... scientific theory.
    oh, no, it's not even accepted by the scientific community (mostly due to inconsistent test results).

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dani View Post
    Interesting. I'm going to have to read up on those things some more.
    And I went through all the types again and now I'm pretty sure that I am an ISFJ. It's weird, though, because even though I relate to almost all the things on the profile websites about them, I realized that I really don't want to be an ISFJ (at least how they're described). They don't like change, don't do anything exciting, they tend to stay in abusive relationships, they blindly follow whoever it is ordering them around, they don't do anything important, people walk all over them. The careers listed (homemaker, librarian, secretary, accountant, middle management) all seem dull and not very important.
    Reading those profiles was like a death sentence. I'll never get over my fears, I'll never do anything new or exciting, and if I do I'd be going against my "type".
    Probably reading too much into this, but the point is, I feel like I might be exactly the kind of person that I hate. Does that even make sense?




    I wouldn't listen to much of what people have to say about ISFJ's. It's incredibly to difficult to portray their qualities in an exciting or positive manner, in relation to what's "hip" for people to be.

  4. #14
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the thing is, much of those descriptions came from the 70's by people who were thinking about SJs from the 50s. in contrast, if you grew into modern progressive ideals, thats going to be your heritage - your Si.

    regarding the career hints.. meh. i wouldn't put much credit in that at all tbh: companies using MBTI to try and predict employee performance have failed miserably.
    But Mane that STILL comes across as something that would bother an individual. After all it's basically saying "you have no will...you are Si and Si IS YOUR ENVIRONMENT you are progressive, but only because the times dictate it to be so".

    And while that should ring true for all people and all types, with the Si dom descriptions, (in fact most SJ descriptions), it is practically put across as the defining motif.

    This means a person is going to get a big ole nasty cognitive dissonance between an idea of free will and an idea of being formed entirely by your sensate environment. Obviously determinism can do the same with regards to ideas of free will, but the point is that a person is allowed to take their time with such ideas.

    You have to be psychologically prepared to deal with them, otherwise it will just cause more hurt than it solves. But it helps if the theory doesn't contradict and cause this in the first place.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    You have to be psychologically prepared to deal with them, otherwise it will just cause more hurt than it solves. But it helps if the theory doesn't contradict and cause this in the first place.
    wouldn't any theory that tries explaining why you do the things you do is going to take a few chips off of the idea that you simply do them because you chose to?

  6. #16
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    wouldn't any theory that tries explaining why you do the things you do is going to take a few chips off of the idea that you simply do them because you chose to?
    Of course, but it's about the method that the theory uses to explain this. I'll admit that some of the consideration in my argument is of how people feel rather than one of logic, but for an example determinism has a logical consistency to it that follows an understandable reasoning pattern.

    If I arrive at the thought that I am hungry and need to eat, my body first knew it was hungry and induced in me the longing for food then I cogitate it as an active thought, but before it even arrived at the point of conscious thought, the brain itself was aware of the idea because of the bodies signals so it was already determined for me before I realised it. Then stretching this out from each knock-on effect in a causal web I could hypothetically say I was always going to eat at this particular time because of each step that preceded it.

    That has a logical consistency to it that shows sound reasoning, it is quite believable.

    MBTI on the other hand merely goes: Here is a slightly vague interpretation of a singular man's theory based on the personal, heuristic evidence of his life. The people who created MBTI claim that the patterns create the types, but through persona and over-identification the types also very often create the pattern.

    These patterns in human cogitation, MBTI attempts to catagorise them, but the variables are so small and numerous that it very often falls down on some previously unforseen angle, not yet considered. But wait....cogitation is not visible and since our only evidence is observed evidence let's use behaviour, but wait again...behaviour can be the result of any number of why's from the mind and still two people otherwise cogitating differently can perform the same behaviour.

    Oh also by the way here are some descriptive processes of the mind that are designed to describe the reasoning behind the perception/conclusion, unfortunately because they were created contextually to try and cover those variables mentioned earlier they in fact fall down in exactly the same way and any number of functions could apply to a singular context, because in creating the functions you have...perhaps in a bit of a loop, created more variables.

    Also there is a specific order for these functions for each type. But sometimes that specific order does not work by definition, so let us create a new idea to supercede that one. Now functions, (apart from the top we're keeping that one), can come in different orders so many different combinations turn up, but wait no how about this: they stay the same, but people often use the third one to jump past the second to avoid examining themselves.....but wait...hold on let us return to the first notion because it fits certain areas of the brain....but wait....blah de blah.

    Never mind that, let us all just agree on singular definitions for everything, because if we don't it's going to become noisy nonsense that can be interpreted in any number of different ways. But us agreeing doesn't prove anything, because that is just us assuming something is true by consensus, it doesn't stand up on it's own internal consistency.

    And so on...

    The point being, the model for determinism works somewhat, (albeit not entirely), as an explanation for lack of free will. Although it is still hotly debated.

    MBTI doesn't work at all in this respect, the more you examine it, the more it falls apart at the seams. Despite it being a theory with some good ideas and some heuristic evidence that holds up fairly well, it will drift apart when a person does not appear completely in the framework.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #17
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    so many places to go from here.


    on a side note:
    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Also there is a specific order for these functions for each type. But sometimes that specific order does not work by definition, so let us create a new idea to supercede that one. Now functions, (apart from the top we're keeping that one), can come in different orders so many different combinations turn up, but wait no how about this: they stay the same, but people often use the third one to jump past the second to avoid examining themselves.....but wait...hold on let us return to the first notion because it fits certain areas of the brain....but wait....blah de blah.
    that seems incredibly specific... you do realize i don't actually know, right? i mean, i've being into MBTI for like... what? a year? some of the people here have being into it for decades. i experiment and play with the concepts, sometimes defining them sometimes stretching them, to get a rough idea of the potential, to get people to argue back and forth and even argue with me and against me in order to see good arguments & various points in all directions.

    as for the general ramble: you are right, the current state of MBTI is nothing but a patch up work inspired by early century psychoanalysis, which wasn't scientific at all. there are bandages & patches for exceptions, leeways & disclaimers for when it doesn't hold ground, it's sort of like the "god works in mysterious ways" sort of disclaimer. it's a terminology bubble, and you never quite know where the reflection ends and the air behind it begans.

    but it has potential, because despite the fact there are many things it doesn't identify, there are certain things that it does - successfully defined traits some people seem to follow. as far as we know it might not be typology at all, it might be conditions, just like how you have hyperfocus and ADHD... but there is something there. right now it's not really a theory, it's not even a complete hypothesis, but it has potential. all the different iterations you see people are having with it? taking it in different directions? disagreeing completely on what those words mean? that's actually a good thing, because the more people do it the higher the chance they'll come up with something that works, and we use each other's experiences with it for peer review. it's lame, unbudgeted, but there is potential.

  8. #18
    Junior Member ttanzkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the thing is, much of those descriptions came from the 70's by people who were thinking about SJs from the 50s. in contrast, if you grew into modern progressive ideals, thats going to be your heritage - your Si.
    i agree with this. most SJ descriptions i read don't really seem to fit SJs i know. i noticed that these descriptions fit adult SJs more than young people nowadays, and still not that accurate.

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