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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    True, good points! And certain Enneatypes can create confusion, too. 1 looks like J, 2 looks like FJ, 3 looks like Fe or T, 4 looks like FP, 5 looks like TP, 6 looks like SJ, 7 looks like ExxP, 8 looks like ExxJ, and 9 looks like IxxP...

    that whole thing reaches down to the core of typology.

    once you encounter questions like this:
    is someone an so-first instinctual stacking or Fe?
    is someone energetic because they are 7 or because they are e?
    is someone analytical because they are TP or because they are 5?
    etc..

    you have to ask what typology is:

    if its semantics - behavioral descriptions - then 7 is just describing a type of extrovert, 5 is just describing a type of TP, and so on, so instead of "this or this", it would always be "this and this" - they are describing overlapping traits.

    if it's mechanisms - naming internal processes - then there is real room to argue what behavior comes from where, and there is room for internal inconsistencies and people having one but not the other.

  2. #72
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    hrm, i think i've seen 3 of the former in my time here, but i don't think i've ever seen INTP/INTJ mistypings. do you remember their retyping discussions? i'd like to have a look.
    Sorry, I don't recall the specifics as I tend to more easily recall the overall pattern.

    I do know that I formerly mistyped myself as INTJ, well before I joined this forum.
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  3. #73
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    There's no excuse for this mistake. Introversion and extroversion are the hardest to judge because there are gradations between them. P and J are one of the easiest. The problem here must be JCF, because it doesn't type directly for P or J. They are arrived at indirectly through determining function relationships.
    So for example an Ni Dominant must be a J type, assuming the dominant is correct. And that's a big assumption to weigh the last letter on.
    Not everyone types via cognitive functions even if they should.

    Some do it solely by looking at the four dichotomies and reading their descriptions. Am I more E or I? More S or N? More T or F? More J or P?
    A P could mistake themselves for a J if they read the J description and find themselves identifying with quite a few of the traits. I think IxxP is more prone than ExxP because in IxxP you have a dominant judging function that's introverted. You look P to others because your auxilary is extraverted but internally, your dominant is rigid regarding its agenda. Think about the INTP who is rigid about certain logical principles or the INFP who is rigid about certain ethical standards. One could easily mistake this rigidity for being an MBTI J type.
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    Not everyone types via cognitive functions even if they should.

    Some do it solely by looking at the four dichotomies and reading their descriptions. Am I more E or I? More S or N? More T or F? More J or P?
    A P could mistake themselves for a J if they read the J description and find themselves identifying with quite a few of the traits. I think IxxP is more prone than ExxP because in IxxP you have a dominant judging function that's introverted. You look P to others because your auxilary is extraverted but internally, your dominant is rigid regarding its agenda. Think about the INTP who is rigid about certain logical principles or the INFP who is rigid about certain ethical standards. One could easily mistake this rigidity for being an MBTI J type.
    In other words, my internal world is orderly and precise, my external world is more fluctuating and random.

    I can't control that which is out there, I can only control this in here (in my head). The goal of the latter is emotional self-restraint. The INFP is similarly self-restrained through a different method: internal ethical judgment.

    The P and J in the MBTI are based on your ideas about controlling the external world. This is easily seen in how you order your lifestyle and plan for your future. It can also be seen in one's choice of words.
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony View Post
    Sorry, I don't recall the specifics as I tend to more easily recall the overall pattern.

    I do know that I formerly mistyped myself as INTJ, well before I joined this forum.
    its ok - before i was introduced to MBTI, i did the keirsey thing - did it on different times along about a year, and came out as all NPs: ENFP -> ENTP -> INFP -> INTP (and i still want to be an ESTP, god damn it!)...

    i didn't yet know of functions or read much beyond the please understand me website, but i got that it was deeply flawed in it's assumptions and started working out a theory to replace it, working on the dimensions as spectrums and thinking how one could build bridges to change their type, but then the theory became a possible magic system for an hypothetical action-adventure RPG where your powers would be dependent on where you are in that spectrum, and then there was a better system, and than it was an MMO and there was a team and there was the question of realistic network support and budget, and then there was no investors and i owed the bank a lot of money and ended up doing sales for 12 hours a day 6 days a week for a year... what were we talking about?

  6. #76
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    its ok - before i was introduced to MBTI, i did the keirsey thing - did it on different times along about a year, and came out as all NPs: ENFP -> ENTP -> INFP -> INTP (and i still want to be an ESTP, god damn it!)...
    That's why Keirsey is only good for determining your temperament style. And you nailed it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    I didn't yet know of functions or read much beyond the please understand me website, but i got that it was deeply flawed in it's assumptions and started working out a theory to replace it, working on the dimensions as spectrums and thinking how one could build bridges to change their type, but then the theory became a possible magic system for an hypothetical action-adventure RPG where your powers would be dependent on where you are in that spectrum, and then there was a better system, and than it was an MMO and there was a team and there was the question of realistic network support and budget, and then there was no investors and i owed the bank a lot of money and ended up doing sales for 12 hours a day 6 days a week for a year... what were we talking about?
    NOW you're understanding functions.
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  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that whole thing reaches down to the core of typology.

    once you encounter questions like this:
    is someone an so-first instinctual stacking or Fe?
    is someone energetic because they are 7 or because they are e?
    is someone analytical because they are TP or because they are 5?
    etc..

    you have to ask what typology is:

    if its semantics - behavioral descriptions - then 7 is just describing a type of extrovert, 5 is just describing a type of TP, and so on, so instead of "this or this", it would always be "this and this" - they are describing overlapping traits.

    if it's mechanisms - naming internal processes - then there is real room to argue what behavior comes from where, and there is room for internal inconsistencies and people having one but not the other.
    Exactly.

    IMO, the whole thing is sort of useless if it's about behavior. I'm not interested in behavior. I'm interested in what led to the behavior. The why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Such Irony
    A P could mistake themselves for a J if they read the J description and find themselves identifying with quite a few of the traits. I think IxxP is more prone than ExxP because in IxxP you have a dominant judging function that's introverted. You look P to others because your auxilary is extraverted but internally, your dominant is rigid regarding its agenda. Think about the INTP who is rigid about certain logical principles or the INFP who is rigid about certain ethical standards. One could easily mistake this rigidity for being an MBTI J type.
    Good point. I think more meticulous Ti-doms especially might be prone to identifying as Js. My INTP 6w5 sp/sx dad seems really J at times and I mistook him for an INTJ when I was first learning MBTI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poimandres View Post
    Darn it, this is the 2nd time you have made me look like a complete Typology ignoramous (well at least ISTP has also been a big part of that mix... with some ENTP on the side)! I'm forever cursed to be singled out as the prime mistyped member of this forum. @AffirmitiveAnxiety is up there too as well (considering pretty much every F type in existence), so takes some pressure off of me.
    Lol, you've gotta stop seeing yourself in my posts. I still think you're really an ENTP, so technically I'm not even talking about you!

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Lol, you've gotta stop seeing yourself in my posts. I still think you're really an ENTP, so technically I'm not even talking about you!
    Yes, I'm very much aware of that; I just wanted to make an argument for something to stir up some fire and excitement - there's nothing wrong with motivational conflict and strife, as it makes us all the more powerful from the struggle!

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You just used logic to justify that you are Fi aux.
    And when I use logic in my justifications people say it's Fi. Go figure.

    Anyway, and I should probably just take my type off because I'll probably never be 100% sure of it, no one has answered exactly what the relation is between Ti and being sure of one's type.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    True, good points! And certain Enneatypes can create confusion, too. 1 looks like J, 2 looks like FJ, 3 looks like Fe or T, 4 looks like FP, 5 looks like TP, 6 looks like SJ, 7 looks like ExxP, 8 looks like ExxJ, and 9 looks like IxxP...
    I mentioned this in a thread and @LeaT said they essentially had no relation to each other; and that was the collective response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Yet the Perceptive P comes from your assumption that an Ne-dom has P as the last letter. This has never been proven directly.
    Ok then, I have 5 primary functions instead of 4. Ni,Ne,Ti,Fe,Si. Not always in that order. This has not been proven otherwise either.

    Because I'm a special snowflake.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Exactly.

    IMO, the whole thing is sort of useless if it's about behavior. I'm not interested in behavior. I'm interested in what led to the behavior. The why.
    Me too, but the perrenial problem is how can you see a process that is internal in people and that some people can't even articulate about themselves?

    The reason people get hung up on appearance (photos and video) or on behavior is that it's observable.
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