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  1. #41
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    The idea that iNtuitives don't use sensory data is ridiculous. Everyone uses sensory data. That is, unless you're Tommy from The Who's rock opera.

    It's more like what they get from the sensory data -- 'sensors' get specifics and 'intuitives' get the gist. They'd look at the same thing and the Sensor would say, "It's made out of plastic and opens up into a dollhouse and the walls on the inside are pink," while the iNtuitive would say, "It's rounded all over, kind of like an egg."

    This explains why iNtuitives are famous for their nonsequiturs, because not even from iNtuitive to iNtuitive will you get the same impression.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The idea that iNtuitives don't use sensory data is ridiculous. Everyone uses sensory data. That is, unless you're Tommy from The Who's rock opera.
    It's the order in which we use the information that changes. In general, Sensing types start with reality and when they've gathered enough data, start to determine what it means. Intuitives start with that hunch/connection/idea and then look to data to back it up.

    I'm doing research on students doing math tasks and it's fascinating. Students who've verified Sensing--not one has used equations which after all, are symbols on paper--to solve the problems. They say things like "It works in reality but I don't know if the numbers will play out." Students who have verified Intuition do just the opposite, solving the equation or starting from their hunch and then saying, "But I don't know if you can build the shape that way."

    We start from opposite directions but can come to the same place if we respect each other

    edcoaching

  3. #43
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    The hunch/connection/idea thing must be started by somehow stimulating the brain. All mental processes are physiological, in the end, so they occur in body systems consisting of organs consisting of tissues consisting of cells. All cells need stimulation to work. They never do anything without some kind of signal from the outside world. Actually cells need stimulation to stay alive. If they receive no signals, they destroy themselves by opening their lysosomes that contain digestive enzymes.

    I'd say that iNtuitives maybe form their hunches/connections/ideas in the unknown part of the mind. They probably are based on the subtle pieces of data their sensory organs gather everywhere all the time. Maybe it's some kind of brain structure thing.

    Well, I'm not sure. I'm just a biology nerd considering possibilities.

  4. #44
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The idea that iNtuitives don't use sensory data is ridiculous. Everyone uses sensory data. That is, unless you're Tommy from The Who's rock opera.

    It's more like what they get from the sensory data -- 'sensors' get specifics and 'intuitives' get the gist. They'd look at the same thing and the Sensor would say, "It's made out of plastic and opens up into a dollhouse and the walls on the inside are pink," while the iNtuitive would say, "It's rounded all over, kind of like an egg."
    And would likely then proceed to talk either about its significance, or about what might happen there -- much less to do about the actual qualities.

    But where could the information come from if not originally from the senses. Intuition is more of a synthetic fabric from the concrete data. The actual facts are less important than what role they serve. That goes for both Ni and Ne.
    we fukin won boys

  5. #45
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    But where could the information come from if not originally from the senses. Intuition is more of a synthetic fabric from the concrete data. The actual facts are less important than what role they serve. That goes for both Ni and Ne.
    So it's perhaps more a time factor of how long S vs. N stay with reality before moving on?

  6. #46
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Here's a good example of Se. I'm going over it rather simplistically, but it's just to illustrate the principle.

    Here we see Will Turner (ISTP) looking out for concrete data. In this scene, Will challenges his captor Davey Jones in a game of chance with life stakes. The key represent's Davey Jones' life (see movie for whole story) while Will literally wager's his life. He knows beforehand, as a result of Ti's balance planning he'll need to match stakes, but that's more on the type than the function.


    As affirmation that he accepts, Davey Jones pulls the key from underneath his beard of tentacles and...
    Sensing and Intutiting-getkey-jpg
    BAM........Se.


    Sensing and Intutiting-seekey-jpg


    He sees the key -- the object oriented concrete data. Presumably he noticed all sorts of other things like exactly which tentacle he stores the key underneath, but the main thing he was searching for was data concerning the location of the key.

    The point is, he took great effort to learn about his concrete environment, as opposed to learning his own place in the concrete environment like an Si type.

    My intention here is to morph rhetoric like that seen in the sentence directly above into actual real life identification of function use. It seems hard for most.

    Added critical point: It should be noted that the Se he was after was the location of the key - nothing else. It was a very specific bit of information. I don't want there to be any confusion like "oh maybe Nocap is talking about how Will sees the key and the texture and..."
    No. The Se I'm talking about here (and it'll make for much quicker CP identification if you draw these mental lines) is in the first picture. The second one is there just for context, and after re-reading my post, I noticed that the second picture might be misleading.



    Edit: Those pictures are irritatingly large. Also I needed to make BAM a little bit bigger.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Interesting. I'll look at examples etc to help me understand the principles... ideas.. but I'll find my own path. It could be that you are using well developed lesser function though.. and there is an ST face helping you learn from examples and books.. or at least absorb long enough to feed your intuition and values.
    Anyone who grew up with parents like mine would need to supplement their teaching in life. I have seen a lot of self destruction around me. To not pay it heed would be a costly mistake and a waste. But really I was meaning what you said here for the most part, taking principles and ideas to guide me. I wasn't talking about developing cut and dried rules taken verbatim from other people and a lot of what I am talking about is observation of other's mistakes and how I think they went wrong and why. I was disagreeing that all INFP will simply do what they feel like doing in the moment without thinking about consequenses. If anything, I might consider consequenses too much a lot of the time in my offline life.

  8. #48
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Okay, an SP, an SJ, an NP, and an NJ are all new recruits to a job. They were all told not to press the red button. This is how all of them react:

    SJ: Oh, it's that shiny red button. They told me not to touch it -- I trust them, it probably does something bad. Better not touch it. *goes back to work*

    NJ: Hmm, a shiny red button. I wonder what it does? Considering where it's positioned, it's probably to an ejector seat. *goes back to work, but ends up getting his tie stuck in the copy machine because he wasn't paying attention and was too busy fantasizing about using the ejector seat on the SJ*

    NP: Hey, a shiny red button! They told me not to touch it, but it's so interesting... It probably does this, or that, or that other thing, or that other other thing *daydreams all the possibilities of what the red button will do, but ends up never actually touching it or getting any work done*

    SP: Ooh! the shiny red button! They told me not to touch it, but it looks so interesting... What does it do? Well, there's only one way to find out, really. *presses button*
    Thanks, that really helped!!! I would totally be somewhere between the NJ and the NP. Fantasize first, do something stupid because I wasn't paying attention. Use it as a wake-up call to do something at least half-way productive, during which I will use half of my brain to focus on work and half of it to make a movie called, "The Guy Who Pressed the Red Button." However, I would never actually press it because I figure pressing it wouldn't be nearly as fun as the far-fetched, crazy ass thing I just dreamed up....After which I would go on a tangent and probably one thing would lead to another and it would somehow lead to raising children and strange societal conditions and oh, I need to get bread, too.



    Thanks to everyone who helped point out the differences. It REALLY helped!!!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  9. #49
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I loved setting up our kitchen. It's carefully organized for the most efficient use. It actually irritates me a lot when anyone moves things, because it's always to a less optimal area....
    Okay, here's how I work...

    I'll organize things just because I know I am such a hair-brained idiot who is so absent-minded that I will lose all my stuff if I don't. Necessary evil.

    So Sunday, my desk is neat. Everything is in its place, and I can find everything. Schweeeet.

    Then comes Monday. Okay, I try my best to keep my resolution to keep everything in place.

    Come Tuesday, I have to hurry. Can't be bothered. Start putting things in neat piles.

    Then Thursday. Pile is so high, I have to make other piles.

    Friday. Couldn't care a damn. I just put things anywhere.

    Saturday comes. I say, "MAN, I DID IT AGAIN." Crap. My shhhhhhh....stuff...is all over the place.

    Then I might, maybe, clean it up again on Sunday because I start losing stuff again.

    Okay, I must be a dim-witted moron. Seriously.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  10. #50
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Here's a good example of Se. I'm going over it rather simplistically, but it's just to illustrate the principle.

    Here we see Will Turner (ISTP) looking out for concrete data. In this scene, Will challenges his captor Davey Jones in a game of chance with life stakes. The key represent's Davey Jones' life (see movie for whole story) while Will literally wager's his life. He knows beforehand, as a result of Ti's balance planning he'll need to match stakes, but that's more on the type than the function.


    As affirmation that he accepts, Davey Jones pulls the key from underneath his beard of tentacles and...
    Sensing and Intutiting-getkey-jpg
    BAM........Se.


    Sensing and Intutiting-seekey-jpg


    He sees the key -- the object oriented concrete data. Presumably he noticed all sorts of other things like exactly which tentacle he stores the key underneath, but the main thing he was searching for was data concerning the location of the key.

    The point is, he took great effort to learn about his concrete environment, as opposed to learning his own place in the concrete environment like an Si type.

    My intention here is to morph rhetoric like that seen in the sentence directly above into actual real life identification of function use. It seems hard for most.

    Added critical point: It should be noted that the Se he was after was the location of the key - nothing else. It was a very specific bit of information. I don't want there to be any confusion like "oh maybe Nocap is talking about how Will sees the key and the texture and..."
    No. The Se I'm talking about here (and it'll make for much quicker CP identification if you draw these mental lines) is in the first picture. The second one is there just for context, and after re-reading my post, I noticed that the second picture might be misleading.



    Edit: Those pictures are irritatingly large. Also I needed to make BAM a little bit bigger.
    I totally never would have noticed the key because I would have been thinking: "How did he become this way? Is a part of him good? How should I operate around him? Who cares...how do I survive???!!!! Does he have a weakness - can I use it to get out. Okay, I'm doomed. I wonder what will happen to my soul, if I have one, after I die. And I hope this bast... well, you know...just dies in a fire pit. Ugly maniac."
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

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