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Thread: INTJ or INFJ

  1. #11
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I haven't even read what you said up there but if you have to ask then I'd say you are an INFJ

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    Tri-type 639

  2. #12
    Member Asterism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    a helpful question to help figure this out:

    tell me about mistakes you've made in the past, what have you done about them and how do you feel about them.
    This is difficult, becaue I kind of have a self-propaganda thing going on and tend to spin my mistakes into "learning experiences," otherwise I would probably be swept away on the tides of my self-loathing. Melodramatic, yes, but I tend to be rather fixated on competency and being able to manage my life well, and when I fail to do so, it's a problem.

    However, one thing that can be counted among mistakes is, rather than taking my professor up on an offer on a comfortable, two-year job (with benefits) that I would have been able to start after graduation, I balked at the idea of moving 1000 miles to do do more mindless data-entry than I had previously; this resulted in choosing to move back home in an attempt to find more meaningful work. This proved impossible, given the state of the economy and the area of the US I live in having been hit fairly hard. I spent two years in a slump and decided I was done with that and went elsewhere. More than anything, I regret that wasted, unproductive time because even now, I can't fully justify it or why I made such a faulty choice in the first place. Even though that job would have certainly bored me to tears, it would have definitely opened up opportunities for future endeavors, and turning that down was odd of me because I'm usually very future/results-motivated.

    I suppose that there's no sense in truly pining over it, because it isn't as if I can get back that time. However, I did a lot of thinking (if not much else) and eventually came to the conclusion that what I was pursuing academically and career-wise wasn't entirely what I wanted to do, anyway, since I was essentially on autopilot and felt nothing for what I'd been doing before at all. So, what I've done about it was to basically shift the goalposts, in a way; it's no longer a "mistake" because it's irrelevant to what I'm doing now, so dwelling on what I could have done/should have done/etc. is completely ridiculous. Does that make sense?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asterism View Post
    This is difficult, becaue I kind of have a self-propaganda thing going on and tend to spin my mistakes into "learning experiences," otherwise I would probably be swept away on the tides of my self-loathing. Melodramatic, yes, but I tend to be rather fixated on competency and being able to manage my life well, and when I fail to do so, it's a problem.

    However, one thing that can be counted among mistakes is, rather than taking my professor up on an offer on a comfortable, two-year job (with benefits) that I would have been able to start after graduation, I balked at the idea of moving 1000 miles to do do more mindless data-entry than I had previously; this resulted in choosing to move back home in an attempt to find more meaningful work. This proved impossible, given the state of the economy and the area of the US I live in having been hit fairly hard. I spent two years in a slump and decided I was done with that and went elsewhere. More than anything, I regret that wasted, unproductive time because even now, I can't fully justify it or why I made such a faulty choice in the first place. Even though that job would have certainly bored me to tears, it would have definitely opened up opportunities for future endeavors, and turning that down was odd of me because I'm usually very future/results-motivated.

    I suppose that there's no sense in truly pining over it, because it isn't as if I can get back that time. However, I did a lot of thinking (if not much else) and eventually came to the conclusion that what I was pursuing academically and career-wise wasn't entirely what I wanted to do, anyway, since I was essentially on autopilot and felt nothing for what I'd been doing before at all. So, what I've done about it was to basically shift the goalposts, in a way; it's no longer a "mistake" because it's irrelevant to what I'm doing now, so dwelling on what I could have done/should have done/etc. is completely ridiculous. Does that make sense?
    well you're definitely working frame by frame - NJ style. but more specifically - this reads very much like INFJs, and contrary to INTJs: i've seen INTJs with plans and it's like there's a rubber band between them and where they want to go - if their is a fluke pulling them off they bounce right back to the plan. INFJs on the other hand tend to justify it, or "self propaganda" as you called it - that's because Te derived ego is directed towards successfully doing what was planned, while the Fe derived ego is directed towards how one appears to one's self.

    the only potential point directing otherwise is measuring yourself by competency rather than intents, which potentially hints of a TJ ego (i know, i'm not helping).

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    well you're definitely working frame by frame - NJ style. but more specifically - this reads very much like INFJs, and contrary to INTJs: i've seen INTJs with plans and it's like there's a rubber band between them and where they want to go - if their is a fluke pulling them off they bounce right back to the plan. INFJs on the other hand tend to justify it, or "self propaganda" as you called it - that's because Te derived ego is directed towards successfully doing what was planned, while the Fe derived ego is directed towards how one appears to one's self.

    the only potential point directing otherwise is measuring yourself by competency rather than intents, which potentially hints of a TJ ego (i know, i'm not helping).
    Well, I'm still doing what was planned. I haven't actually changed my course of study entirely; the end point is now slightly left of center (or rather there's a new center), so the plan had to change accordingly. The ultimate result (getting my PhD) is still the same.

    I get what you're saying, though, and that's a behavior I've definitely observed with dom/aux Te. I tend to mentally meander a lot more than that would (theoretically) suggest, so I've always felt a little disconnected from the function descriptions. Something about it seems too rigid to me.

    And you're actually helping a lot. Do you think it's possible I'm not Ni-dominant at all?
    Last edited by Asterism; 05-03-2013 at 07:18 PM. Reason: word choice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asterism View Post
    And you're actually helping a lot. Do you think it's possible I'm not Ni-dominant at all?
    let's have a look:




    The above makes me question whether I’m as intelligent as I’ve been led to believe, but it’s not the only thing. I’m very bookish, but I have a horrible memory when it comes to precise detail like dates, times, and locations; my particular type of intelligence isn’t a traditional intellectualism - I’ve spent years trying to make myself distinct in this way - but I still feel residual social pressures to appear well-educated in the sort of nebulous way one tends to define that.
    b) Repetitive, detail-oriented tasks and I don’t get along. I’m a very patient, focused person, but I find myself quickly becoming frustrated and scatterbrained with anything that requires too many small processes performed over and over again. I also greatly dislike prolonged socializing with large groups of people and interpersonal conflict.


    you seem to lack Si completely (suggesting that if you're a J - you are an NJ).


    and I have a tendency to lapse into a state of inertia whenever things aren’t progressing exactly as I want them to, which only increases the feelings of inferiority, since... well, the fact that this is a problem is a problem. The circular nature of it is ridiculous and humiliating because I consciously recognize that it’s self-perpetuating and self-destructive.
    a very common problem for Js, very rare for Ps.


    How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?

    This is difficult to answer because a certain amount of this is a constant, for me. It’s easy for me to look at the complex interplay between groups of people or work processes and “see ahead” to a probable outcome. I follow my hunches if they’re particularly strong or compelling, and it’s a fairly often occurrence for me to, for example, feel that I should take a different route to work, only to arrive and hear about an accident somewhere along my usual way. My instincts about people are usually good, and while I don’t feel very strongly that anyone is good or bad, I can often tell on first meeting if so-and-so has a cordial veneer but is really kind of a prick and should be mostly avoided.
    again - a big supporting point for NJ.


    I’m constantly striving to be more creative with my writing and art and develop a style that’s very uniquely mine, however, I feel that I always fall short, and it makes me frustrated and envious of those who seem to have found their groove, so to speak. I know that I’m capable (intellectually, anyway...), but it’s difficult to translate what I see in my head to paper
    you're defining your skill in terms of unrealized potential you identify in yourself, not results. even if we took it that your social skills were entirely a non natural construct to get along in society, this would still be another big point towards NFJ.




    b) I think I would like to be far, far less empathetic, or less analytical, in the interests of bringing more balance to my psyche. Sometimes, I get tired of the perpetual tug of war between my instinct to detach and observe critically, and my drive to get involved and help. It also means that I never know what kind of impression I’m leaving; some of those who have met me in mode A think I’m very cold and horrible, and those who have met me in mode B think I’m the squishiest person ever. It’s very strange.
    Fe conflicting with analysis paralysis - i have never known an INFJ who didn't complain about this being a consistent part of their life. in a theoretical framework this is mostly supportive of you being a J - who thrive on maximum coherence (rather than maximum stimulation).

    to contrast, Ps function quite well with unknowns and unresolved issues, because frankly we don't have the alternative - we become over confident in our ability adapt to any situation even if we don't understand it (while Js grow overconfident in their understanding of any situation).

    most note worthy is that you aren't looking for precedence, you are looking for observation - you are seeking to make connections within the current flow of data (NiSe as apposed to SiNe).
    What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?

    I have a general, all-purpose “treat others with common courtesy” rule which encompasses everything from standard modes of politeness to being aware of social/emotional boundaries and knowing when to overstep for the other person’s benefit and when to mind my own business by keeping a respectful distance. This has been determined through trial and error, and so far, seems to work the best for me and those around me. I say “common courtesy,” but something I’ve also learned is that courtesy isn’t common; it is, therefore, more appropriate to say that I strive to see everyone as an individual with unique needs and desires, and to treat them as kindly as the situation warrants. This means that I tend to be more socially progressive, overall, and that I place a high value on honesty, integrity, and so on.
    and we hit the NFJ motherload... warning: approaching stereotype level. the previous notion that your idea of courtesy is a construct made to adapt to society falls down right here - you are demonstrating comparing the world to an idealized version of it.



    you had your chance of being an NT, but.. it doesn't seem likely. i am sorry for your loss

  6. #16
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    well you're definitely working frame by frame - NJ style. but more specifically - this reads very much like INFJs, and contrary to INTJs: i've seen INTJs with plans and it's like there's a rubber band between them and where they want to go - if their is a fluke pulling them off they bounce right back to the plan. INFJs on the other hand tend to justify it, or "self propaganda" as you called it - that's because Te derived ego is directed towards successfully doing what was planned, while the Fe derived ego is directed towards how one appears to one's self.

    the only potential point directing otherwise is measuring yourself by competency rather than intents, which potentially hints of a TJ ego (i know, i'm not helping).
    Wouldn't the parallel to Te ego being based on fulfilling a plan be a Fe ego being based on fulfilling a more outward focused value based goal, rather than inward towards self-perception? Based on MBTI wouldn't Fi be more concerned with a consistent internal perception and Fe be more concerned with outward consistency like harmony between self and the outside world? I would suggest that while individuals can be complex and not adhere to theory, that the theory would propose a Fe based ego judgment to focus on success in goals focused on external, relational connections like pleasing an employer, a partner, etc. regardless of how this makes one feel about self (when taken to its extreme)?

    I propose that Fi is the function that requires consistency in self-perception, which is why the Fe driven judgments require more external validation. It could be that Fe judgment would not admit outwardly to internal fault, but the motivation would be to maintain the outward harmony and consistency rather than to maintain an internal, positive self-perception.

    Edit: When I hung out on the INFJ forum, I remember a number of members expressing a level of brutal personal honesty and self-criticism that I have never seen any place else online.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #17
    Member Asterism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    snip

    you had your chance of being an NT, but.. it doesn't seem likely. i am sorry for your loss
    I'll survive, somehow.

    It's an interesting analysis, though, and I thank you for taking the time to do it. There does seem to be a bit of a disconnect between how I've always understood Fi and Fe and how you're defining it. Basically,

    Based on MBTI wouldn't Fi be more concerned with a consistent internal perception and Fe be more concerned with outward consistency like harmony between self and the outside world?
    Is the main idea (as far as how I view the difference), consistent internal perception being the key. In essence, I can't entirely accept INFJ because I happen to be close to a couple of them, and there are rather consistent value-based clashes between them and myself. They're much more externally-directed and outwardly consistent as far as how they present themselves to others, based on what they can tell people would be more comfortable with, and this comes naturally to them and makes sense. The chameleon effect seems to drain me much faster, meanwhile, and I have to be very selective and strategic about how/when I use it (co-workers, academic superiors, and that's pretty much it). I only developed this attitude because my default "come as you are" approach is very off-putting to most of the people I've encountered, so it's really just a means to an end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Wouldn't the parallel to Te ego being based on fulfilling a plan be a Fe ego being based on fulfilling a more outward focused value based goal, rather than inward towards self-perception? Based on MBTI wouldn't Fi be more concerned with a consistent internal perception and Fe be more concerned with outward consistency like harmony between self and the outside world? I would suggest that while individuals can be complex and not adhere to theory, that the theory would propose a Fe based ego judgment to focus on success in goals focused on external, relational connections like pleasing an employer, a partner, etc. regardless of how this makes one feel about self (when taken to its extreme)?

    I propose that Fi is the function that requires consistency in self-perception, which is why the Fe driven judgments require more external validation. It could be that Fe judgment would not admit outwardly to internal fault, but the motivation would be to maintain the outward harmony and consistency rather than to maintain an internal, positive self-perception.
    hmm.. while that does work with the inwards/outwards metaphors, i think its safe to say that unless everything else we know about psychology is wrong, everyone has an ego they cater too in their own ways and everyone (with the exception of extreme mental illnesses) has tools to relate to people in the outside world. i actually think the inwards/outwards metaphors aren't the best descriptions of the traits later associated with Fi/Fe to begin with - and a lot of the resulting multiplicity of inconsistent theories stems from people having different uses for that metaphor (deep vs. shallow, self serving vs. utilitarian, and about a thousand other things that don't really describe any member of the related types), which is why i think it's a lot more useful to think of the functions in the pairs they come in - FiTe and FeTi (aggressive tendencies and weight issues aside :p ), working from the commonalities each pair has, and then seen them being used to different purposes.

    FiTe projects: Fi asks "how things would feel" and projects the internal answer on external objects, Te asks "what do i want" and formulates information into a map of how to get from A to Z. they are both generated by a person projecting their internal content outside.

    FeTi reflects: Fe reflects upon the emotional signals and consensus from others and manifests a mirror of it within, Ti reflects upon information, exploring it's form and shape. it's somewhat like an empty vase constantly absorbing and reflecting upon the external.

    on a sidenote:


    so to apply it there - both FiTe and FeTi people are going to formulate identities and ego and both are going to relate to the emotions of others, but they use a different toolset: FiTe isn't going to have the middle stone of "how i appear to be" - they don't really imagine themselves through other's eyes in the first place, they can but for them its a very long and forced route which involves putting themselves in the other's feet (which they do naturally - but without accounting that the person is not the themselves), adjusting to what circumstances can lead to the different mindset (requiring them to know the person well enough), play around with it until they have a version they can identify with (assuming they have Fi/Ne), and doing so over and over again to a lot of people in order to get a grasp of what the consensus of appearance might be like (may need medication afterwards)... and even after they do all of that, it's not going to hold much grounds, because they have a shortcut dismissing the resulting answer which they experience as a lot more genuine to them - whether what they did or didn't do is acceptable to themselves. as a result, they don't shape their interpretations of events to look better - it's validated by simply being acknowledged that this is what they felt needs to be done, often with disregard to how things look.

    disclaimer:

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    @Mane

    From that explanation, it looks like we're on the same page, for the most part. I think what I need to do now is hang around more than I have been and observe, bounce some ideas off others IRL, and come back to this at a later date to see if everything lines up. Thanks again.

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    Okay, research and recon have revealed that I'm operating under a particularly heavy self-perception bias, and that I've unknowingly conflated some features of Fi with Ti. After reading these articles, and going back to Jung's Psychosocial Types, it's pretty clear I'm more Te-Fi, which would make a little of the Fi/Ti confusion make sense; because while I see my logic as subjective, it isn't in any sense of the term unless something dovetails with my internal values system, which I still can't really articulate. External values as far as how I'll behave are easy to put into words, meanwhile, because they're based on extensive study of my surroundings and are determined based on what works for me and what doesn't, which seems like an interaction between Te and Se. Having a couple of INFJs to bounce ideas off has helped immensely; both have known me for quite some time and were able to cite specific instances in which we've had a complete breakdown in communication, what led to that, and how we worked through it (or, let's be honest, it was more like how we got sick of talking about it and let it lie after stewing ineffectually).

    This has also revealed that my head fix is most assuredly 6; the typing question prompted me to approach this via a different system, and I ended up digging into the nature of 6ish anxiety/doubt and skepticism. One could say that may have led me here in the first place, since I really felt I needed to be certain about this, but that's almost another subject. Anyway, I think it's settled - as far as I'm concerned - but I'm open to debating the point now that I believe I'm sufficiently informed.

    Oh, and @Mane, thanks again for engaging me on this.

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