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  1. #1
    Member 10blackroses's Avatar
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    Default Lost in the world of enneagrams, please type me?

    As the title says, I'm a little bit lost here, not only about my type, but about the whole enneagram concept. I'm fairly good with MBTI, but enneagrams ... for some reason, it just keeps confusing me. So if you care to 1) type me and 2) explain why you chose that particular type, it would be really helpful

    Here are some facts:

    1) I am an INTP. I've been told my way of thinking is unusual, but I'm just born with that thinking pattern, so I've never seen it as strange or anything out of the ordinary. I reason rather than learn, and from the facts I've already stored in my mind, I can usually find my way from a problem to its solution. In other words, what I lack in knowledge, I can usually make up for in logic.

    2) I'm an anxious type of person; there's a lot of worries on my mind, and I'm ridiculously thin-skinned when it comes to dealing with criticism. At my worst, I can almost start crying if someone says I should have done the dishes an hour ago.

    3) I have a black/white view of right vs. wrong. I can accept a lot of things, but sometimes people just forfeit their humanity and cannot be forgiven.

    4) I don't like strict rules or being forced into the same box as everybody else. I rarely stand up and demand for things to change, but I'm not against messing a little with people I think deserve it. Not a warrior type; more of a saboteur behind the scenes.

    5) If I try to play chess with someone, I usually lose because I only plan offence and not defence. That applies to many other things in my life too; I know exactly why others are wrong, but it's sometimes difficult to explain why I'm right.

    6) I'm meticulous about correcting what I feel is wrong about myself or my projects. I spent about 12 years trying to defeat a diagnosis I had received as a six-year-old, and - even though it shouldn't theoretically be possible to defeat it at all - the diagnose was removed when I was almost eighteen. Stubborn? YEP.

    7) I don't like superficial friendships or superficial displays of friendship, but I'm fiercely loyal when I get attached to someone. I'm as romantic as a potato, though I can and do handle close friendships.

    8) I write stories. I usually quit my writing projects, so my laptop is full of incomplete documents and plotlines I never got around to write.

    9) I ask 'why' about everything, even where it's obvious. Why do dogs have a tail? Why do we have gravity? Why do people laugh at stand-up comedians? Why do people read things over and over again just to pass a test, then decide to forget it when they're sure they didn't fail?

    10) I'm a person who either really pisses people off or fascinate them; I don't think I'm easy to have no particular opinion about.

    So, any analyses? I really need some help here. Thanx
    A question that sometimes drives me hazy; Am I or the others crazy?
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  2. #2
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Im going with 5w6 or 6w5, with a slight preference for 5w6
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    6w5
    I really like cats and food.

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    What did you first test? Enneagram is one thing I can dutifully use as guidance, fyi.


    Right now I'm leaning towards 1w9 or 6w5, but I wonder if some things you've expressed are substantiated - for example, saying right and wrong is black and white. I have trouble feeling any 6/5 type would feel this way...

  5. #5
    Member 10blackroses's Avatar
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    The first tests I took said 5, then I took one that said 4, then back to 5 again.

    I'm not saying right and wrong IS black and white, only that an action is - to me, not necessarily to anyone else - either forgivable or unforgivable with no gray area. For example, even in a culture where it's common, child abuse is NEVER forgivable. It's just completely and utterly disgusting. Hiding behind paragraphs or norms doesn't make an action acceptable, it never does. I can't forgive that under any circumstances, nor can I justify killing for totally selfish purposes or spousal abuse. Some things are just not alright. This is more of an emotional line than a rational one; if I was to consider everything without mixing any sorts of emotions, I would probably have a more nuanced view, but it's not natural to me to stray from my moral compass on these things.
    A question that sometimes drives me hazy; Am I or the others crazy?
    ~Albert Einstein

    A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

    Reality is a lovely place, but I wouldn't want to live there.
    ~Owl City (Song: The Real World, album: All Things Bright and Beautiful)

  6. #6
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10blackroses View Post
    The first tests I took said 5, then I took one that said 4, then back to 5 again.

    I'm not saying right and wrong IS black and white, only that an action is - to me, not necessarily to anyone else - either forgivable or unforgivable with no gray area. For example, even in a culture where it's common, child abuse is NEVER forgivable. It's just completely and utterly disgusting. Hiding behind paragraphs or norms doesn't make an action acceptable, it never does. I can't forgive that under any circumstances, nor can I justify killing for totally selfish purposes or spousal abuse. Some things are just not alright. This is more of an emotional line than a rational one; if I was to consider everything without mixing any sorts of emotions, I would probably have a more nuanced view, but it's not natural to me to stray from my moral compass on these things.
    This reasoning here reeks of F, not Ti. I'm inclined to say Fi.

    At my worst, I can almost start crying if someone says I should have done the dishes an hour ago.
    Why is this?

    3) I have a black/white view of right vs. wrong. I can accept a lot of things, but sometimes people just forfeit their humanity and cannot be forgiven.
    Very Fi-tinted.

    I don't like strict rules or being forced into the same box as everybody else. I rarely stand up and demand for things to change, but I'm not against messing a little with people I think deserve it. Not a warrior type; more of a saboteur behind the scenes.
    Why is this?

    I know exactly why others are wrong, but it's sometimes difficult to explain why I'm right.
    What does it mean to be right or wrong?

    I'm meticulous about correcting what I feel is wrong about myself or my projects.
    Why is this? What is it that you feel you need to correct?

    I don't like superficial friendships or superficial displays of friendship, but I'm fiercely loyal when I get attached to someone. I'm as romantic as a potato, though I can and do handle close friendships.
    Seems like Fi-valuing to me again.

    I usually quit my writing projects, so my laptop is full of incomplete documents and plotlines I never got around to write.
    Does this bother you? If not, why so?
    I ask 'why' about everything, even where it's obvious. Why do dogs have a tail? Why do we have gravity? Why do people laugh at stand-up comedians? Why do people read things over and over again just to pass a test, then decide to forget it when they're sure they didn't fail?
    Why do you ask why?

    I'm a person who either really pisses people off or fascinate them; I don't think I'm easy to have no particular opinion about.
    Yeah, I am considering sx dominant for you. You're pretty intense.

    So, any analyses? I really need some help here. Thanx
    There really isn't much to analyze. I would suggest that you write down your childhood experiences. How were you like as a child? How has this affected the way you are now? What kind of relationship did you have with your parents? Also, what kind of goals do you have in life? What is important to you and what you desire to achieve?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  7. #7
    Member 10blackroses's Avatar
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    @LeaT
    The first tests I took said 5, then I took one that said 4, then back to 5 again.

    I'm not saying right and wrong IS black and white, only that an action is - to me, not necessarily to anyone else - either forgivable or unforgivable with no gray area. For example, even in a culture where it's common, child abuse is NEVER forgivable. It's just completely and utterly disgusting. Hiding behind paragraphs or norms doesn't make an action acceptable, it never does. I can't forgive that under any circumstances, nor can I justify killing for totally selfish purposes or spousal abuse. Some things are just not alright. This is more of an emotional line than a rational one; if I was to consider everything without mixing any sorts of emotions, I would probably have a more nuanced view, but it's not natural to me to stray from my moral compass on these things.
    This reasoning here reeks of F, not Ti. I'm inclined to say Fi. Some MBTI tests have agreed with you on that and typed me INFP. But I think it's more an 'echo' from my past (see below) that has caused me to develop something that looks like a strong Fi, while at the core I always was (and still am) a Thinker.

    At my worst, I can almost start crying if someone says I should have done the dishes an hour ago.
    Why is this? Honestly, I don't know. I'm quite messed up emotionally; that may also be linked to the explanation given above.

    3) I have a black/white view of right vs. wrong. I can accept a lot of things, but sometimes people just forfeit their humanity and cannot be forgiven.
    Very Fi-tinted. Again, see above.

    I don't like strict rules or being forced into the same box as everybody else. I rarely stand up and demand for things to change, but I'm not against messing a little with people I think deserve it. Not a warrior type; more of a saboteur behind the scenes.
    Why is this? I've always been told to change, and it didn't work. I've even wanted to change, but that was really painful; so now, I kinda freak out if someone wants to put me in a box. I'm not all that outgoing, so yelling at people who are trying to force rules upon others doesn't come easy to me, but I still like to do what little I can against them.

    I know exactly why others are wrong, but it's sometimes difficult to explain why I'm right.
    What does it mean to be right or wrong? In this setting, I was talking idea-wise. I'm a liberal in politics and an agnostic bordering on atheist - while I can explain precisely what makes conservatism a bad idea or why God probably doesn't exist, I might have found myself on a loss if somebody asked me why I believed in the things I believe in.

    I'm meticulous about correcting what I feel is wrong about myself or my projects.
    Why is this? What is it that you feel you need to correct? About your first question, I feel worthless what I am or what I do is less than perfect. That is another neurosis of mine. I usually put all my heart into doing something correctly, and if I fail, I'll hate myself for it for a loooooooong time. To answer your second question, EVERYTHING that is even a tiny bit wrong.

    I don't like superficial friendships or superficial displays of friendship, but I'm fiercely loyal when I get attached to someone. I'm as romantic as a potato, though I can and do handle close friendships.
    Seems like Fi-valuing to me again. See above. I'm your typical INTP non-hugging, socially avoidant type, and I only really care about two people in my life, but when I do care, I care a lot. Here's my 'all or nothing' thinking again.

    I usually quit my writing projects, so my laptop is full of incomplete documents and plotlines I never got around to write.
    Does this bother you? If not, why so? Yes, it bothers me, but it's probably because I want things to be perfect again, and anything short of perfection is thrown away.

    I ask 'why' about everything, even where it's obvious. Why do dogs have a tail? Why do we have gravity? Why do people laugh at stand-up comedians? Why do people read things over and over again just to pass a test, then decide to forget it when they're sure they didn't fail?
    Why do you ask why? I have no idea. I just don't take things for granted, and I like getting to the bottom of things in order to understand the world around me better.

    I'm a person who either really pisses people off or fascinate them; I don't think I'm easy to have no particular opinion about.
    Yeah, I am considering sx dominant for you. You're pretty intense. You have to know me well to know that I'm intense; I'd be mistaken for dispassionate if I was only a random acquaintance.

    So, any analyses? I really need some help here. Thanx
    There really isn't much to analyze. I would suggest that you write down your childhood experiences. How were you like as a child? How has this affected the way you are now? What kind of relationship did you have with your parents? Also, what kind of goals do you have in life? What is important to you and what you desire to achieve? Long story short: Violent father, diagnosed with autism at age 6, was a very difficult child to understand and get along with, but thanks to a strong will and supportive adults around me I still found a way to cope. My diagnosis was changed to Asperger's Syndrome when I was 18, and there's still some doubt as to whether I should have any diagnosis at all, as I've become fairly adept socially in time. I have a strong aversion towards my father, whom I haven't seen in 14 years, but I'm close to my mother. I have no particular goals; survival is pretty much all I hope for.
    A question that sometimes drives me hazy; Am I or the others crazy?
    ~Albert Einstein

    A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

    Reality is a lovely place, but I wouldn't want to live there.
    ~Owl City (Song: The Real World, album: All Things Bright and Beautiful)

  8. #8
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    If you actually want honest typing, you need to give me honest and genuinely introspective answers. The way you look at data so superficially suggests that you are some extroverted type to me although I am uncertain what kind of type. Could be Je or Pe. EDIT: After reading this through I'm inclined to say Te dominant because your answers seem to reek of inferior Fi.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10blackroses View Post
    @LeaT
    The first tests I took said 5, then I took one that said 4, then back to 5 again.
    Tests are utterly unreliable when it comes to figuring out type. In other words, they are useless. Most people who take tests gain results very far removed from their actual core types such as 9s often getting 5 because they see themselves as intellectual. 5 has nothing to do with intellectualism but everything to do with a core fear of being removed from ominscience. If you do not experience this core fear as the primary motivator in your life and thinking pattern, you are not a 5. I can already tell based on how you are behaving in this thread that you are most likely not a 5. A 5 would ask me questions, want to get more answers. You just provide simple explanations.

    Based on this information alone I can thus already tell that what you are really looking for doesn't seem to be truth to me, but a confirmation of what you already think is true. They are very two different things. You need to decide what you want.

    Some MBTI tests have agreed with you on that and typed me INFP. But I think it's more an 'echo' from my past (see below) that has caused me to develop something that looks like a strong Fi, while at the core I always was (and still am) a Thinker.
    It doesn't work this way. Fi is a specific type of reasoning process that relies on determining whether you think something is good or bad, right or wrong. Not necessarily morally, but it does so based on a subjective feeling of whether it feels good or bad or right or wrong for you. I should know being an Fi dominant type myself. You have an image attached to the NT persona but this does not an NT make, nor does it a 5 or intellectual 4 make, although the way you cling to this persona could suggest a strong connection to the image triad and type 4.

    Honestly, I don't know. I'm quite messed up emotionally; that may also be linked to the explanation given above.
    If you fail to give introspective answers you also fail at understanding why I ask these questions, meaning you ultimately seem to desire to not want to be typed.

    Again, see above.
    And see my response to that above.

    I've always been told to change, and it didn't work. I've even wanted to change, but that was really painful; so now, I kinda freak out if someone wants to put me in a box. I'm not all that outgoing, so yelling at people who are trying to force rules upon others doesn't come easy to me, but I still like to do what little I can against them.
    Why don't you like change or being put in a box? In what way was it painful to you? You must understand the reason why I ask you why it's painful is because it's pertinent in understanding your core motivations. Being able to answer why it was painful will most likely provide a clue to your actual type.

    Anyway, the way you seem to dodge answering questions that seem uncomfortable to you seems to suggest positive outlook triad.

    In this setting, I was talking idea-wise. I'm a liberal in politics and an agnostic bordering on atheist - while I can explain precisely what makes conservatism a bad idea or why God probably doesn't exist, I might have found myself on a loss if somebody asked me why I believed in the things I believe in.
    And why do you have problems telling what drives your convictions?

    About your first question, I feel worthless what I am or what I do is less than perfect. That is another neurosis of mine. I usually put all my heart into doing something correctly, and if I fail, I'll hate myself for it for a loooooooong time. To answer your second question, EVERYTHING that is even a tiny bit wrong.
    Why do you hate yourself? Do you often tend to categorize the world in terms of what is right or what is wrong? What is good and what is bad? Correct or incorrect? Pure or impure? Clean or dirty? Do you often find yourself having issues telling apart that the world can also exist in layers of gray? Would you also say you are more of a moral perfectionist in the sense that you impose extreme morals on yourself that you feel you must adhere to such as always being logically correct, always doing your job a certain way, or just in general always feeling the need to be a certain way because if you don't you're not good enough?

    See above. I'm your typical INTP non-hugging, socially avoidant type, and I only really care about two people in my life, but when I do care, I care a lot. Here's my 'all or nothing' thinking again.
    That just seems to sound like sx/sp or sp/sx to me. Also, I'd say the inferior Fe of INTPs can make them have a desire for socialization and social expression. You don't seem to seek that.

    Yes, it bothers me, but it's probably because I want things to be perfect again, and anything short of perfection is thrown away.
    Would you also say finishing tasks or what you do is important? Are you a "doer"? Do you like to get things done?

    I have no idea. I just don't take things for granted, and I like getting to the bottom of things in order to understand the world around me better.
    How do you get to the bottom of things and what kind of understanding is it that you seek?

    You have to know me well to know that I'm intense; I'd be mistaken for dispassionate if I was only a random acquaintance.
    sx/sp and sp/sx can be that way. They can sometimes be hard to tell apart.

    Long story short: Violent father, diagnosed with autism at age 6, was a very difficult child to understand and get along with, but thanks to a strong will and supportive adults around me I still found a way to cope. My diagnosis was changed to Asperger's Syndrome when I was 18, and there's still some doubt as to whether I should have any diagnosis at all, as I've become fairly adept socially in time. I have a strong aversion towards my father, whom I haven't seen in 14 years, but I'm close to my mother. I have no particular goals; survival is pretty much all I hope for.
    Why do you have a strong aversion towards your father and how would you describe your relationship with your mother? How do you think being diagnosed affected your lfie and your outlook on life?

    Anyway, based on the extreme focus on perfectionism, the slight positive outlook that most of all seems 7-ish and the strong 4 vibes, I would say care 1 sexual subtype is probably not a bad guess thus far. But please try to be more elaborate with your answers. The acuracy of your type can only be as accurate as the data about you that you provide us with can tell about you. Little to no data means no type.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  9. #9
    Member 10blackroses's Avatar
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    @LeaT

    I could give a long psychological lecture on why I think I overreact to minor criticism, but that would ultimately be unreliable because my rational and emotional aspects are hardly ever in touch. I'd say it might be a result of my father pinning me to the ground and beating me up for every single little mistake I made, which would make sense from a behaviorist point of view, but because I am quite neurotic and neuroses are, by definition, irrational, going by rational explanation may not be sufficient. Saying I don't know is not because I haven't reflected on it - I've been twisting and turning this problem obsessively throughout my teenage years, both in therapy and on my own - but because none of the hundred possible explanations I've considered really FEEL likely. So even though I've been over this over and over again for five years, trying to work everything through, my issues lie deeper than what six different psychologists, psychiatrists and therapists, apart from myself, have been able to comprehend. I suppose whatever type I am, I am a 'broken' one at that, so that my be why I'm difficult to type.

    With my previous autism diagnose, I was constantly told by teachers that I was wrong in acting the way I did, whether it was unconsciously insulting others, being unable to stop talking about a particular subject, or resisting all attempts to make me sit quietly in the classroom without interrupting the teachers or the other kids. I mostly ignored those comments, because I had already decided that this was not the person I wanted to be, and that I knew I had to find my own way out of it. But, as most adults were concentrating on making me cope with my diagnosis in an average way, they kept treating me as if my own determination was non-existent. As a young teen, my desire to fit in had grown stronger; my main priority was no longer to escape my diagnosis for my own sake, but to be seen as 'normal' by my peers. I failed miserably, and it felt like I had lost a part of myself in the process. I gave up, and for some years I was completely aimless, a fact that I denied obsessively, both to myself and to the world. Eventually, I discovered that the only way to completely free myself from my problems and my diagnosis was to work consciously to improve my Extraversion and Feeling to be able to relate to others and connect with them in a more genuine way. I was 17 at the time. So I started to explore my own feelings in order to establish a stronger form of empathy; today I'm at least fairly empathetic and able to see things from other people's sides as wel, although I do sometimes still feel that they are terribly wrong in their decisions - even though I know exactly what it's like to be at the end of your rope from desperation and want to hit the first child who gets in your way, I still think the only way to deal with that desperation is to hide from everybody else to avoid taking this out on others, which is one of my unforgivables, for obvious reasons. So when I try to fit into other people's ideals, it ends up eating me from the inside. I cannot change for others, I have to change for my own reasons - if I can change at all, if it's healthy to change.

    I am better at finding logical flaws in established mindsets than I am at explaining my own convictions - probably because they are often a result of past experiences. Therefore they are stuck in my head without me having a logical explanation for what I believe. I just know deep inside that I mean it, even though they do in no way belong in my reasoning patterns. If I was to explain, for example, my liberal views, I would beat around the bush by pointing out why conservatism is wrong, and therefore, by process of elimination, liberalism is right. I don't believe that this is a proper way to justify one's beliefs, as I often find it better to look for unforeseen solutions than to go with one of two options; but out of a lack of ability to defend what I mean, I will simplify everything and hope that my criticism of their views will stop them from questioning mine.

    Yes, I am a moral perfectionist, and I sometimes find myself criticising my ten-year-old self for having done something that my current 20-year-old self finds unforgivable. In others, I can ascribe their moral shortcomings to ignorance from time to time, but I could never excuse myself in the same way because I'm so sure of what I mean. If you are familiar with the film Breaking the Waves, the heroine Bess is an example of what could to others be a morally ambiguous character that I find to be totally justified in her actions. Some actions that would seem repulsive to others, such as a battered wife murdering her husband in his sleep, are to me acceptable even though I would not have done so myself. I still have an old Nokia that is pathetic compared to my peers' smartphones, because I find wasting resources to be immoral. To me, following my strict moral codes is a form of atonement; because I find my father to be a morally rotten person, I feel that I have to keep myself on a very tight leash in order not to become a monster, and to make up for whatever suffering he has caused. I can do a job differently, as long as it turns out to be completely perfect in the end, but if a school project turned out to be less than perfect, I had trouble letting my teachers see it. Anything short of perfection is unforgivable in my case, even though I can accept imperfection from others.

    My seeming lack of interest in social acceptance is partly due to a fear that I might be a monster deep inside, and I don't want to hurt anyone (morally unacceptable). I can enjoy talking to people who are on the same wavelength as myself, but I easily find that others do not meet my standards - not because they are in any way 'worse' than me, but because they don't fit into my idea of what type of people I can have a reasonable conversation with. I want a conversation that does not only drain me - most conversations do - but also gives something back to me in the form of new insight and new ideas, which I constantly seek. Small-talk is to me worthless; I need something more substantial.

    I'm not always thrilled about finishing things - what if the final product is not perfect? However, I play with ideas a lot, and I'm comfortable when I have something that could POTENTIALLY be perfect, although I throw it away when I discover serious flaws that makes perfection impossible.

    I sometimes go into 'research mode' - that involves reading up on things for hours, even days, only to learn everything about a particular subject. However, knowledge is never enough; understanding is essential. Simply creating systems in order to keep your knowledge in order is no use. I need to grasp the underlying concept, complete and flawless understanding. Therefore, I can sometimes get annoyed with SJ types who focus on systems rather than understanding, because I find their way of processing information to be superficial. If I zone out and somebody asks me what I was thinking about, my answer can sometimes be very strange: "I was just contemplating the impossibility of three cubes of different sizes to fit perfectly into the shape of another cube. That's impossible. How on Earth could the ones who made this commercial overlook such an obvious physical mistake?" Lack of complete understanding frustrates me to no end.

    My father ruined all my chances to ever be remotely normal, and he made me fear the possibility of being a monster - a curse I think I'll have to live with for the rest of my life. I can only see a picture of him; that will make me numb inside and difficult to talk to for days. If I discovered that I had a facial feature that was very similar to his, I would be terrified. My mother and I have always been close because we fought together against a common threat and because she has supported me through my tough times. Although I sometimes find her too lenient and she sometimes find me too strict, we know that we're there for each other no matter what. My diagnosis was a lable that I struggled to get rid of, but what was worse was how people just decided that I had to adapt to a life with autism while my intention was to free myself from it entirely, a goal that nobody else believed in. That has made me distrustful of others because they were wrong about my will to fight - if they misjudge me that fundamentally from simply observing me and not listening to me, how can they possibly know what's best for me? My diagnosis contributed to a 'me-against-the-world' state of mind, or rather a 'some-aspects-of-me-against-the-world' point of view. I can sometimes deliberately mislead people to make them understand that I may not be what they think I am.

    Did that help?
    A question that sometimes drives me hazy; Am I or the others crazy?
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    A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

    Reality is a lovely place, but I wouldn't want to live there.
    ~Owl City (Song: The Real World, album: All Things Bright and Beautiful)

  10. #10
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    @10blackroses, yes, thank you. Much more useful than what you provided with before and contrary to what you think, this revealed a great deal about you both in terms of enneatype and MBTI. What you need to understand is that enneagram, MBTI and such, they can't provide with life answers even though they can be one of the underlying motivations why and how we seek them. Anyway, overall, there's a strong 1-4 connection as an underlying theme in your post. A great deal of focus is spent on a sense of feeling misunderstood but there's also the possibility for 8 anger here. I would suggest to look into the types 1, 4 and 8 to begin with and see which one seems more likely as your core type.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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