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  1. #81
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Title - grab a copy of Nine Lenses on the World: The Enneagram Perspective by Jerome Wagner.
    If it works for you, fine. If it doesn't, discard.

  2. #82
    there, there Title's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    I'm not trying to be condescending, but I've seen your typing ventures elsewhere. I was debating for awhile whether or not to respond to you here, and I eventually did because I saw it as an interesting challenge, where I could give you another viewpoint than the 3wX everyone was bound to say from the material highlights of your questionnaire, but keeping in mind your pattern of settle-question-settle-question I knew I should not have. You're going to get a type settled and then question again.

    Either you need to study the Enneagram yourself, finish forming yourself (and your self-image) as a person, or both, because I doubt at this point any answer I'd give will make a difference. I could contend with your points, but what will it do for you? Introspection is what seems really required.

    So it's mostly that I get frustrated with the process because it seems like it will never end. I think you're intelligent and have potential, else I wouldn't get frustrated at all.
    The thing about introspection is that it's not always clear when it crosses the threshold between 'realism' and 'idealism' since there's not always an external standard to measure it against, besides other people's input -- and that can be inaccurate for a variety of reasons. That's why I have these cycles: I know myself, I know what I'm inclined to do and how I'm inclined to think, I know why I take certain actions and why I feel certain things, but I question whether my characteristics are 'developed' enough to fit into archetypes such as MBTI, Enneagram, and so on -- or perhaps it's not about level of development, but perspectives I have or lack.

    It all really boils down to preferences, in the end. It's not as hard for me with MBTI. My cycles of MBTI doubt were mostly based on not knowing the theory well enough and have, hopefully, been surmounted by finding out more about myself, as I delved further into what each function attitude and dichotomous preference entailed. But with the Enneagram, it's completely different. There are no preferences, it's about the very core of your being. And what is the core of my being? Am I really justified to say that yet? Should I go with the closest fit based on things I tend to do - which is 3w4 at the moment - or should I wait to see what suits me in the future? These are rhetorical questions - but ever relevant, and the reasons I struggle with the Enneagram, rather than lack of knowledge (internal or external).
    iNtj // rlua|I|
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    with no feelings at all

  3. #83
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Title View Post
    The thing about introspection is that it's not always clear when it crosses the threshold between 'realism' and 'idealism' since there's not always an external standard to measure it against, besides other people's input -- and that can be inaccurate for a variety of reasons. That's why I have these cycles: I know myself, I know what I'm inclined to do and how I'm inclined to think, I know why I take certain actions and why I feel certain things, but I question whether my characteristics are 'developed' enough to fit into archetypes such as MBTI, Enneagram, and so on -- or perhaps it's not about level of development, but perspectives I have or lack.

    It all really boils down to preferences, in the end. It's not as hard for me with MBTI. My cycles of MBTI doubt were mostly based on not knowing the theory well enough and have, hopefully, been surmounted by finding out more about myself, as I delved further into what each function attitude and dichotomous preference entailed. But with the Enneagram, it's completely different. There are no preferences, it's about the very core of your being. And what is the core of my being? Am I really justified to say that yet? Should I go with the closest fit based on things I tend to do - which is 3w4 at the moment - or should I wait to see what suits me in the future? These are rhetorical questions - but ever relevant, and the reasons I struggle with the Enneagram, rather than lack of knowledge (internal or external).
    Why are you worried about external standards and reality for defining the reality of yourself? In my understanding, cognitive introversion would lead you to deny this kind of thinking in favor of the idea that only you can define yourself. At your age I was fairly convinced I was a vampire, and while it might sound fantastical it was a defined self-image, based on how I saw myself acting in the world and what I viewed as a meaningful representation of my power. Granted I hadn't come across MBTI, or Enneagram, but even if I had I think it wouldn't have meant nearly as much to me as what I myself saw of and within myself.

    The core of a human - what it is, is a great question. You could look at it different ways. For some, the core will be some external factor - the material existence, the social existence, the persona or manifestation outside one's own head, which seems to be part of the way you proposed of looking at it. For others, the core will be what you find inside. I like the Enneagram idea of the 'core' being the prime motive - in other words, the bundled 'why' that develops as you grow. But I also prefer the idea that, outside of the personal, the core is the simple fact of sapience, the potential that humans can develop and use in any which way, so it ends up involving every factor from the objective to the subjective but leaving the subjective primacy.

    So the real question, when I ask you what your core is, will involve defining what "core" means to you in terms of human being. I'm not urging you to adopt my definition, I'm interested in what you will figure out for yourself, especially over time as you grow.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  4. #84
    there, there Title's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    Why are you worried about external standards and reality for defining the reality of yourself? In my understanding, cognitive introversion would lead you to deny this kind of thinking in favor of the idea that only you can define yourself. At your age I was fairly convinced I was a vampire, and while it might sound fantastical it was a defined self-image, based on how I saw myself acting in the world and what I viewed as a meaningful representation of my power. Granted I hadn't come across MBTI, or Enneagram, but even if I had I think it wouldn't have meant nearly as much to me as what I myself saw of and within myself.

    The core of a human - what it is, is a great question. You could look at it different ways. For some, the core will be some external factor - the material existence, the social existence, the persona or manifestation outside one's own head, which seems to be part of the way you proposed of looking at it. For others, the core will be what you find inside. I like the Enneagram idea of the 'core' being the prime motive - in other words, the bundled 'why' that develops as you grow. But I also prefer the idea that, outside of the personal, the core is the simple fact of sapience, the potential that humans can develop and use in any which way, so it ends up involving every factor from the objective to the subjective but leaving the subjective primacy.

    So the real question, when I ask you what your core is, will involve defining what "core" means to you in terms of human being. I'm not urging you to adopt my definition, I'm interested in what you will figure out for yourself, especially over time as you grow.
    I'm not. I apologize if that wasn't clear, but that's what I meant by bringing up external standards, that they're not of much concern because they're not particularly accurate. The individual is the only one who can accurately define themselves, unless there's something blocking them from seeing that truth.
    ...Just out of curiosity, what kind of vampire are you speaking of, the mythical sort of blood sucker or something less fantastical/grotesque (feeds off others' energy)?

    That sounds more or less like my definition of core, as well. And I do genuinely try to question why I do things instead of just the plain 'what' I do. Questioning comes naturally to me, introspection being no exception. But how do you feel about people who have multiple possibly Enneagram-related motivations for doing things? Then how do you know what really is the 'core'? I'm interested in seeing how you feel about that.
    iNtj // rlua|I|
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    for one moment,
    i wish you'd hold your stage
    with no feelings at all

  5. #85
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Title





    What wonderful thing is going to happen now!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #86
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Title View Post
    I'm not. I apologize if that wasn't clear, but that's what I meant by bringing up external standards, that they're not of much concern because they're not particularly accurate. The individual is the only one who can accurately define themselves, unless there's something blocking them from seeing that truth.
    ...Just out of curiosity, what kind of vampire are you speaking of, the mythical sort of blood sucker or something less fantastical/grotesque (feeds off others' energy)?
    I saw myself as a person who lived to gain from life and gave nothing in return. It's an avaricious construct, the vampire - I accepted my darkness and owned it like a nihilist.

    That sounds more or less like my definition of core, as well.
    How so? Explain your concept.

    And I do genuinely try to question why I do things instead of just the plain 'what' I do. Questioning comes naturally to me, introspection being no exception. But how do you feel about people who have multiple possibly Enneagram-related motivations for doing things? Then how do you know what really is the 'core'? I'm interested in seeing how you feel about that.
    Enneagram is basically trauma response. It's generated by a childhood that was injurious to your development in some way (nobody has a perfect childhood) and ends up keeping you stuck in a pattern that can seem like you haven't completed some stage of childhood to your personal satisfaction. For instance, type 5 compulsively seeks understanding - in some sense you can say that type 5 hasn't completed the childhood stage of understanding the world to a good enough extent that they feel capable of operating in it to their satisfaction. 5 grows up by growing into action from understanding. So this adds some clout to the idea that in order to really ascertain your enneagram type so that it's clear to you what you are, you might need to go through the process of maturing into young adulthood.

    So, to define a life in Enneagram terms, you need to see what the predominant dynamic is over a longer period of time. Discounting anything that amounts to personality-altering physical brain damage, especially later in life, each type will seem (from within and without), act and think differently when they are traumatized, get stuck in ruts, are doing OK, and are doing great. Each type will also define these states around different priorities, not just depending on type but also instinctual stacking and relevant specifics in context. I'd say if you're actually untypable, it's because you haven't been acquainted with enough of your life to tell what type fits your pattern - certain conflicts in life will come later than others - and having an emotional trauma in your background will also help you clarify your type in the long run since it brings the disintegration pattern out in force, forces significant introspection and engages your self-definition against adversity.

    Anyway, when you're engaging in introspection toward determining your type: in some sense Enneagram is behavioral. It has to do with not just what you hold of import, but also how and why and then perhaps how much, so to dismiss the component that dictates how you act, like I was prone to doing when I was growing up (I dismissed the very idea of defining myself by action, appearance and so forth), is no more wise than dismissing the internal. Whichever starting point you take, you need to progress to its antithesis..which is the entire point of studying Enneagram, getting back in touch with the parts of yourself that you less consciously dismissed in youth.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

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