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  1. #11
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    I've met some cold xNFPs in my life. INFPs can be bitter and apathetic.
    I really like cats and food.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    @Standuble Your post got me to thinking! I hope you don't mind some interjection from me.

    I think what people value isn't determined by Fi, so much as Fi interprets that person's world according to what one values. The values come from beliefs, which exist far deeper than where Fi functions.

    Like this (layers from top to bottom):

    Actions
    Fi/Ti
    ego
    values
    beliefs/subconscious
    emotions
    ~~~~~~~~~
    unconscious



    Like Fi functions superficially, yet internally. It sort of assesses and asks, "Is this in line with what ego says is okay (which is itself driven by underlying deep-seated beliefs)?" It's not really, imo, a deep function necessarily, though I suppose it could be. I just think it's important to delineate that Fi is not necessarily your true nature or true individual belief regarding something--it's usually a slave of your learned beliefs, which may or may not really be who you are personally. This disconnect between learned beliefs and intrinsic beliefs is what causes so many problems and conflict intra-person! And is possibly, for example, why someone has a hard time 'loving' themselves. Perhaps they've learned and laid in one belief which results in a set of values, but realize down the line they actually are drawn to something else entirely! Like gender or sexual identity, for example.

    I guess my point is, in this rambling post, is that just because Fi says something, or Ti informs about something, it doesn't necessarily mean that is the ultimate truth for the whole person. It just means that at that current time, it is attempting to align with the current beliefs (which are actually buried within the subconscious), and may even, ironically, have little to do with who the current individual really is!

    Fi/Ti/Ni/Si are all functions which attempt to assess our inner world, but they go on what they are told by ego and underlying belief. Which are based on learned environmental experiences as one grows. So they are only as 'true' as that, unless one has soul-searched and experienced an alchemical (thanks INTP!) spiritual process to attain a specific and true belief for them.
    Excellent thinking regarding all of this. I've at numerous times weighed up the idea that the Fi is just an ambassador and interpreter to the deeply held values held in the unconscious (with Fe interpreting external values which make their way into the unconscious) rather than it being the total embodiment of someone's values and desires and you have done a good job in articulating what I could not. I also speculate a lot when it comes to "true values" which to me echoes Plato's Theory of Forms. My current understanding (which welcomes adjustment or to be disproven at any time) at is that all values and knowledge are absorbed from the outside from which worldviews are developed. There is more but my brain doesn't seem to want to operate tonight.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Interesting point, but if there's anything to this whole typology business one has to assume that there are certain behaviors and proclivities which correspond meaningfully to certain functions. So, in the case of Fi, the fact that one looks through the world through the prism of one's internal value system might make one more prone to react when the values that comprise that system have been violated. To others who don't prioritise their Fi as highly, this could be construed as being "overly sensitive".

    To answer the OP, yes there can be insensitive NFPs. FPs in general can be callous as a motherfucker when they wanna be.
    A point I need to make about this is that (in my case) sensitivity is often more like a seperate entity which often works counter to your goals and values, sometimes it even completely derails them. I myself dislike it to a degree as it often manifests as little more than an inhibitor which interferes despite being of no value. I have seen others online who have similar dislike for it. Sometimes it does not go off when a value is violated (leading you to be completely passive about it.) In my case it's like receiving an electric shock (it likes to occur when I have been insulted by someone or am apprehensive about a certain feedback) which undermines your composure. Yet sometimes it does not occur and I can be insulted by others but maintain my ground as if I had a thick skin. There is a degree of predictability behind it however but despite the predictability it is an entity beyond conscious control.

    I do not see how it could be linked to Fi (outside of a potential definition for it as "apprehension fearing the annihilation of the self" and then arguing that the invalidation of the Fi's values is the destruction of the self but at best I see that being a side effect and not an intrinsic component of Fi.)

  4. #14
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    A point I need to make about this is that (in my case) sensitivity is often more like a seperate entity which often works counter to your goals and values, sometimes it even completely derails them. I myself dislike it to a degree as it often manifests as little more than an inhibitor which interferes despite being of no value. I have seen others online who have similar dislike for it. Sometimes it does not go off when a value is violated (leading you to be completely passive about it.) In my case it's like receiving an electric shock (it likes to occur when I have been insulted by someone or am apprehensive about a certain feedback) which undermines your composure. Yet sometimes it does not occur and I can be insulted by others but maintain my ground as if I had a thick skin. There is a degree of predictability behind it however but despite the predictability it is an entity beyond conscious control.

    I do not see how it could be linked to Fi (outside of a potential definition for it as "apprehension fearing the annihilation of the self" and then arguing that the invalidation of the Fi's values is the destruction of the self but at best I see that being a side effect and not an intrinsic component of Fi.)
    Well, there are a number of proposed definitions of Fi. Related to the one about internal value systems that we've been discussing is the notion that Fi is a way of judging things by how they jive with one's "inner essence" discernable by one's own emotional response to them. Your response to my post, for instance, is a pretty good example of an Fi assessment. You disputed my claim about Fi because how I defined sensitivity didn't mesh with your subjective experience of the concept.

    Anyways, whether one has conscious control over one's emotions/sensitivity/whatever is really besides the point of how Fi influences behavior. What's important is how much priority one gives those reactions. A person with a stronger preference for Fi is by definition gonna be more likely to pay attention to how something affects them personally, and give emphasis to those feelings in their decision making. This process is intrinsic to the nature of Fi.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  5. #15
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    @greenfairy - How would a function which simply determines what one values and what they don't value be causal to sensitivity? Sounds to me that the people in question have labelled a confused, incongruent mess as Fi.
    I don't know, but pretty much everything written about Fi doms describes them as sensitive, and people go out of their way to describe Ti dom/aux as not. Have you not noticed a difference in people in real life?

    I'd say it's because deep feeling combined with strongly held values and sense of self makes things easy to perceive as threatening to those, and would elicit an emotional reaction in response. Makes sense, right? If you prefer objectivity and detachment you would have no reason to emotionally react to things unless they trigger your inferior function.

  6. #16
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    I've met some cold xNFPs in my life. INFPs can be bitter and apathetic.
    That's still an emotional attachment though. Coldness is a negative state, as is being bitter and apathetic. Healthy individuals are none of those. A Ti/Te person prefers objectivity and detachment, and so would operate from a neutral state, not a negative one. So NFP's are still affected by the world, i.e. sensitive, even if they exhibit those traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Oh good. Another greenfairy "type me" thread. I knew this forum was missing something lately.
    Not quite. And hey, people asked for it by arguing with me in the first place.

    And what is a typology website for, if not to discuss type?
    Edit: Actually I want to continue to clear this up. The only real "type me" thread I've made was for Enneagram, and it got like 5 replies if that. The others were simply offering thoughts about my type in the hope that people would find it useful in typing themselves and others. So people seem to be more willing to type me when I don't ask for it, or when I explicitly ask them not to. Yeah I make a lot of threads, and most of them relate to me, but that's the best way to learn about typology- to study people- and you are the person you are in the best position to study. I learn a lot about myself from reading what other people have to say about themselves. I expect the same should be true the other way around. Contrary to what some might think, I don't think I'm such a special butterfly that no one shares my characteristics.
    Edit2: Ok, a couple I'd forgotten about might constitute type me threads- but they were only in response to people arguing with my original type, because I naively thought I owed people an explanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    To answer the OP, yes there can be insensitive NFPs. FPs in general can be callous as a motherfucker when they wanna be.
    That's the key- they don't usually do it as a pattern and accidentally (unless they are depressed and misanthropic)- and callousness is a kind of resistance to emotional attachment, not a lack of it in my opinion. I don't think the standard NTP goes around happily behaving "callously" and winning friends and influencing people in the process.


    Great thoughts AGA!

  7. #17
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Hi, it's important to remember that some people will 'do to others as they would have done to them', which means that at least some Fi users will be really sensitive towards others feelings simply because they are very aware of their own feelings, so offer that same awareness to others.
    Others, it seems, are all about themselves and they are the more difficult to be with ones.
    You can see how Fi can be amazing though - especially good for counsellors, I would have thought??

  8. #18
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    Hi, it's important to remember that some people will 'do to others as they would have done to them', which means that at least some Fi users will be really sensitive towards others feelings simply because they are very aware of their own feelings, so offer that same awareness to others.
    Others, it seems, are all about themselves and they are the more difficult to be with ones.
    You can see how Fi can be amazing though - especially good for counsellors, I would have thought??
    Oh certainly. Fi users have great strengths, among them counseling ability.

  9. #19
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    hmm, I don't think sensitivity is a prerequisite for being NFP, since Fi is simply about values... Ti does tend to deal with immovable/colder facts where Fi tends to deal with the fuzzier/ethical stuff so could make them more naturally sensitive. I personally have a thing where I become very cold and have to block people out because I'm too sensitive. I snap and get angry and just totally brush over others feelings sometimes and just don't care-

    like @Standuble, I have the HSP issue, (seems like a lot of NF's do), so my motivations stem from oversensitivity/getting overwhelmed, and needing to block stuff out- I'm not *actually* cold, just need to be. I think that could be common as well.

    However, it appears there are also many infp's who are naturally on the cooler/even keeled side. It makes sense that one can be value focused without being overemotional.
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  10. #20
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    One of the main reasons I think I'm not INFP and probably not ENFP is that I'm not sensitive. Really. In any respect. I'm physically sensitive, but that's another story. I can't remember the last time I got my feelings hurt, and if it happened I didn't register it. Especially if people try to hurt my feelings- I'll be somewhat displeased that they are mad at me if that's the case, but usually I'll just be thinking "whatever, they're stupid. Obviously that's not true." Or, "I guess I need to let them cool off and then apologize for whatever I did." Or, "well that person sure is bad tempered." And if they are a stranger I don't care. I do care about my reputation and whether I am collectively liked, but it's not something I'm going to cry over- I'll just conclude my social skills suck. I used to be picked on in school, but it never really bothered me. I'd just try to make a joke out of things and see what I could learn from the experience (about how to present myself and interact with people).

    I'm not easily offended either. If someone says something that goes against my principles I might feel passionate, but I'm not going to attack their character. When I was a teenager in my morally immature phase I had a more black and white viewpoint and thought all Republicans were evil and fundamentally ignorant, but I quickly evolved past that. The two things I get righteously indignant about are sexism and the environment, and I am more than willing to look at things objectively and not assume an interpretation of what someone says or does.

    As for sensitivity to others' feelings: I am aware of people's emotions, but not very good at responding to them and anticipating how they will respond emotionally to things. In fact, I can be pretty terrible at it. I didn't learn how to do it adequately until very recently, and I'm almost 30. Before that I'd just be like, "well that sucks. Let me help you solve the problem. Don't touch me. And go away as soon as possible." I used to offend people all the time and be confused as to why, and then my first inclination was to blame them for being overly sensitive and unreasonable instead of apologize.

    So...yeah. Can this be at all compatible with NFP?
    My first thought was no, it's not necessarily about sensitivity. However I was thinking in the more superficial/stereotypical sense and you seem to actually ask about something deeper. I see what you're getting at and I think a degree of sensitivity is necessary to be NFP. I'm not awash with feeling in general nor am I incredible fragile but there is a sensitivity that, say, NTPs don't seem to share. I don't think that this makes NTPs colder or nastier, it's just that they aren't as attuned and responsive to charged emotional experiences (especially negative ones).

    I do want to emphasise that this does not mean that we are very emotional, but only that we invest more of ourselves in things we find meaningful. I really don't see myself as a remarkably emotional person if I compare to my ISFJ mum or ESTJ sister. They're very reactive people, whereas I tend to be impassive and indifferent. I'm typically pretty neutral because I don't really care too much either way about most things. At the same time the complete opposite is true; I'm a person of great feeling and would say I feel more deeply and intensely than my mother and sister. It's strangely contradictory - I'm not even sure if I'm explaining it well.

    The sort of things you are describing here sound more NTP-like than NFP to me. I don't know that I could distance myself that much from such things - I couldn't help but feel negativity/upset because they relate to things that matter to me. If I passionately believe something, I really do believe it emotively, not merely strongly.

    But then, this is just my opinion. I imagine others would disagree and would not necessarily be wrong.

    EDIT: I feel like the definition of sensitivity could be at issue here - there are subtle differences between various definitions. It depends how broadly you mean to use the term.
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