Instinctual variants?

[mintleaf]

I feel like I relate pretty equally to sp, sx, and so.


what would you type me as?


[probable] 9w1, INFP/INFp


Social: I'm aware of most social norms, and follow them to what seems like a pretty moderate extent. I'm always interested in group dynamics, and I'm concerned when I sense tension and distance. I definitely have a strong desire to be part of something bigger than myself. Not very sensitive to criticism unless I feel it's warranted...then it strings for a while, but soon after I'm totally fine and am able to see the criticism as useful.


Sexual: I prefer conversations with only one or two people. The social complexity of conversations involving 3+ others is too much for me to handle, an intellectual overload, and I dislike the lack of intimacy. I have a drive for intensity, but I tend to be turned off by intense and theatrical people, thrill-seekers, etc. Though I realize "intense" is hard to define. I think I'm talking about unhealthy 4 traits: competitiveness, love of melancholy, contrived persona.


Self-preserving: I'm pretty lazy and can be overly concerned with my own state of mind almost to the point of paranoia. I don't have much more to say about this, but to me, sp-dom is a strong possibility.


and, if this is relevant: I'm deeply distressed by dissonance within myself and by rifts between groups of people. I'm guessing that that alone would indicate sp/so or sp/so, but I don't know. I've never had very close friendships, because I know so few people whom I can relate to on a meaningful level. Maybe that's why separations between myself and another individual don't bother me as much; I've just never experienced a break with anyone I didn't already feel alienated from.


I've looked at the 9w1 subtype descriptions, and the only one I definitely don't relate to is so/sp.
not feeling sp/so either. sp/sx is so me ("eyes and fingers of the universe examining itself, aware of how everyone is connected indirectly through the swamps of psychic muck...extrasensory decoder for the subconscious") except that I do feel significant social responsibility. same with sx/sp, which I'm leaning towards.


tl;dr
is it possible to be social last but
a. have moderate social conscientiousness
b. care deeply about the big picture and occasionally prioritize that over individual relationships and personal needs?

 

[small.wonder]

Hmm...yes I can see why you are confused. You could gain some insight into which one is your strongest by reading this thread. It helped me quite a bit. Here's the 9 section from the thread posted by [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]

NINES

The SP Nine expresses the need to find protection and comfort through merging with an experience of the satisfaction of physical needs. Through consistently getting lost in activities they enjoy– for example, eating, sleeping, reading, doing crossword puzzles, or working – they simultaneously experience comfort and avoid or forget their own sense of being. These Nines like to be alone more than the other Nines. They are also practical and would rather get absorbed in a familiar and comforting activity than take the risk of expressing themselves in the world.

The SO Nine has a need to feel a part of the group that over-compensates for an experience of feeling different or not a part of the group. SO Nines can be workaholics in service of the group, working hard and unselfishly to support the family or group without showing their stress or putting a burden on other people. SO Nines can be good leaders who may look like Threes. (This is the countertype of type Nine.)

The 1-1 Nine expresses a need to be through the other; they try to gain a sense of being not found inside themselves by fusing with somebody else. These Nines may find it difficult to locate their own passion for living, so they unconsciously seek it in someone else, usually someone who is important to them. These Nines tend to be tender and sweet, and they may not realize they are living through specific others. These Nines are also kind and gentle and not very assertive.

*1-1 is SX

I also do think it's possible to be social last and still be able to function in social settings. I'm social last and I still sucessfully (if awkwardly) do group settings, I just don't prefer it and usually end up talking to one or a couple people.

I do hope you figure it out, I know how frustrated I was until I did!

 

[Kasper]

Seems pretty So/Sx based on what you wrote.

Why do you think Sp?

 

[mintleaf]

Seems pretty So/Sx based on what you wrote.

Why do you think Sp?

I could see So/Sx, but so many Social Instinct descriptions seem to imply that dominant traits are conformism, sensitivity to criticism, detachment from self, etc., none of which I strongly relate to. I've experienced sensitivity to criticism and a sense of "nothingness," but mostly during unhealthy phases. So I'm also considering Sx/So (probably Sp last, now that I think about it).

Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek personal connection: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types. source

I don't fully agree with the phrase in bold. Though I have high standards when it comes to close friends, and am therefore much more familiar with personal connections than intimacy, I'm not sure that this so/sx relational pattern is my ideal.

 

[Kasper]

I could see So/Sx, but so many Social Instinct descriptions seem to imply that dominant traits are conformism, sensitivity to criticism, detachment from self, etc., none of which I strongly relate to. I've experienced sensitivity to criticism and a sense of "nothingness," but mostly during unhealthy phases. So I'm also considering Sx/So (probably Sp last, now that I think about it).

I don't fully agree with the phrase in bold. Though I have high standards when it comes to close friends, and am therefore much more familiar with personal connections than intimacy, I'm not sure that this so/sx relational pattern is my ideal.

Still sounds So/Sx Unless more info is given on how/why you relate to Sp.

And yeah, the stereotypes associated with So are the reason so many So doms mistype themselves as something else (the same thing happens in reverse with people over-typing as Sx).

I personally like Naranjo's focus with subtypes. Social for a 9 is all about participation, for me it's best described as an ever searching to feel a sense of belonging, yet never really felling like I do even when everyone around me would say otherwise. My most noticeable area of focus involves moving between social and anti-social because of this.

This is him talking about 9s (skip past the 8 stuff) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcG_mSxhyIo

And in summary form:

9 self-pres - Appetite. Sancho Panza. I eat therefore I am. I sleep, I have, I want creature comforts. No metaphysical level of thinking. Can't talk about Being. Substitution of bottle for mother's breast was so complete that they are fused with their body. "Homo economicus" - the double chinned banker. Very practical people.

9 social - Jolly good fellow. Light hearted, merry. Passion of participation, to feel a part of. Doesn't feel a part of to begin with, feels doesn't have what it takes to fit. Very mindful of group "other"; they fuse with the group. Good leader, unselfish, sacrificial. Passion of paying for ticket to group admission. Workaholic. Believes not to show pain or weigh others down with own woes.

9 sexual - Union/fusion/symbiosis/confluence. Needs to be through another. Fuses with one other. Use relationship to feed your being because you don't stand on your own 2 feet - stands through the other. Suspicious tenderness. Nobodies, not living with passion. Too dispassionate. "Nowhere Man". Not noticeable - wallflower. Erased from family picture. "She eats but no one has seen her chew." Betrays own needs.

The stuff you wrote about why you could be So in the OP are basically a summarised version of what So is about, noticing the inter-connections, the place people hold, the dynamics.

I assure you I am not sheeple, that is not a So thing. It's a bad stereotype. Ftr So is also not about gossip and shallowness.

I am not sensitivity to criticism, that is something more associated with 9 tbh, even then I don't feel it unless you matter greatly to me and put me down.

As 9 is the gut type most out of touch with their gut, detachment from self can be something that flows from that (not that they would notice), I don't see it as a So thing. 9s detach from their own needs to keep connections, and not disrupt the peace.

 

[mintleaf]

You're probably right. It could definitely be that my lack of fulfilling one-on-one relationships (I'm a high school senior and I hardly identify with anyone I spend the bulk of my time with, though I get along with everyone) has led to an over-focus on the Sx instinct, since it's the source of the most disappointment for me.

Yeah, I figured those were just So stereotypes. Sorry if I offended you.

9 self-pres - Appetite. Sancho Panza. I eat therefore I am. I sleep, I have, I want creature comforts. No metaphysical level of thinking. Can't talk about Being. Substitution of bottle for mother's breast was so complete that they are fused with their body. "Homo economicus" - the double chinned banker. Very practical people.

I don't know how valid it is, but the 9w1 sp/sx description I found seems to imply an intensely metaphysical style of thinking:

They view words as primitive and utilitarian, and attune themselves to the subconscious realm (under the spoken word) where it is impossible for people to hide their inner being...All expression is a distortion of the truth that relates to the origin of the cosmos. Every act pertains to "god" "creation" the "singularity." Even people's masks and false propositions are distortions of this truth. They are more interested in the elemental forces that move events rather than the event itself. They have access to archetypes in the unconscious where mythological battles can be hashed out while keeping the 9 disconnected from their instinct.

(I probably relate least to this part, but the rest of the description I related to a lot)

 

[Kasper]

Yeah, I figured those were just So stereotypes. Sorry if I offended you.

Oh you 9 you! Not at all.

I don't know how valid it is, but the 9w1 sp/sx description I found seems to imply an intensely metaphysical style of thinking:

(I probably relate least to this part, but the rest of the description I related to a lot)

I find it amusing then that Naranjo's says no metaphysical thinking XD

My suggestion is ignore the stackings, look at the individual instincts and work out your relationship with each.

Some random stuff:

NINES
The SP Nine expresses the need to find protection and comfort through merging with an experience of the satisfaction of physical needs. Through consistently getting lost in activities they enjoy– for example, eating, sleeping, reading, doing crossword puzzles, or working – they simultaneously experience comfort and avoid or forget their own sense of being. These Nines like to be alone more than the other Nines. They are also practical and would rather get absorbed in a familiar and comforting activity than take the risk of expressing themselves in the world.

The SO Nine has a need to feel a part of the group that over-compensates for an experience of feeling different or not a part of the group. SO Nines can be workaholics in service of the group, working hard and unselfishly to support the family or group without showing their stress or putting a burden on other people. SO Nines can be good leaders who may look like Threes. (This is the countertype of type Nine.)

The 1-1 Nine expresses a need to be through the other; they try to gain a sense of being not found inside themselves by fusing with somebody else. These Nines may find it difficult to locate their own passion for living, so they unconsciously seek it in someone else, usually someone who is important to them. These Nines tend to be tender and sweet, and they may not realize they are living through specific others. These Nines are also kind and gentle and not very assertive.

http://blog.theenneagraminbusiness.com/2010/11/theory-cutting-edge-of-our-subtype.html

More stuff here.

 

[sulfit]

I feel like I relate pretty equally to sp, sx, and so.

what would you type me as?

9w1, INFP/INFp

I was going to ask if you are type 9 since you said you can relate equally to everything.

Try answering these questions and seeing which answers were easier to draft, which look fuller with content. I also liked these descriptions of instincts. They are more thorough than anything else I've seen.

 

[mintleaf]

Thanks for those links. These describe me so well:

Motivation: to create lasting connections with those they are interested in.
This type has very strong one to one social skills, but is usually uncomfortable in group settings. They enjoy cultivating multiple relationships, and can be intensely involved when in the presence of someone they are interested in, but have difficulty sustaining these bonds when apart. This may give the impression of being flighty and rootless, willing to adapt and mirror others in order to connect, but lacking a defined approach that would give their relationships a more solid standing. They may have political interests, but are generally more pragmatic and less partisan than the other social variant.

But in the group, they may resent their loss of identity as they merge with the wishes and goals of the group. If that happens, they either do submit to the group energy or they move to the periphery of the group and vacillate between belonging and not belonging.

Although I'm drawn towards a sense of belonging, and I do feel important to most groups I'm part of, I'm pretty peripheral. Leadership is not my thing and I'm wary of people who identify very strongly with a social circle, political party, movement, etc.

The instinctual flow information was interesting, too. I'm curious - how well do you (anyone reading this) get along with those of the same flow, and how much do you clash with those of the opposite?

 

[Kasper]

The instinctual flow information was interesting, too. I'm curious - how well do you (anyone reading this) get along with those of the same flow, and how much do you clash with those of the opposite?

It's an interesting theory, and I haven't noticed any patterns that support or contridict it much, mostly because I don't type instinct stackings of those around me unless they jump out and slap me in the face.

 

[Elfboy]

Hmm...yes I can see why you are confused. You could gain some insight into which one is your strongest by reading this thread. It helped me quite a bit. Here's the 9 section from the thread posted by [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
*1-1 is SX
I also do think it's possible to be social last and still be able to function in social settings. I'm social last and I still sucessfully (if awkwardly) do group settings, I just don't prefer it and usually end up talking to one or a couple people.
I do hope you figure it out, I know how frustrated I was until I did!

actually, 1-1 is also Sp, and So/Sx tends to prefer smaller, more intimate groups of people. it's So/Sp that is the most comfortable in large groups, everyone else prefers smaller groups or 1-1 interaction.
[MENTION=17424]decrescendo[/MENTION]
you seem either Sp/So or So/Sx.
- you're clearly not Social last (social last types can fit in when necessary, but the idea of "being a part of something larger than yourself" does not appeal to either Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx)
- you lack the active, cerebral, social networker energy of So/Sp
- you're clearly not Sx/So. they tend to be more dramatic, fiery and volatile

Edit: the Social instinct doesn't necessarily make you conformist, merely aware of group dynamics, aware of ones role and position in the group and more aware of how people relate to each other

from a post from Isolde of typewatch:

One important aspect of the social instinct is the awareness of how other people relate to each other. This perception can go missing from the perception of many social lasters. Social lasters seem to go with 'How I relate to A, how I relate to B', and so on. They can very well have many friends, but they still don't get how friend A might mean to friend B, and how the the relationship between the said social laster and friend A may depend on friend B as well.
This makes for many social lasters being left out in the cold when their friend's relationship to other friends took a turn, which then affected the friend's relationship with the social laster.
I am certain many social lasters know what I am talking about

many So doms are fierce social critics, actively counter culture and bent on changing society

 

[mintleaf]

@decrescendo
you seem either Sp/So or So/Sx.
- you're clearly not Social last (social last types can fit in when necessary, but the idea of "being a part of something larger than yourself" does not appeal to either Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx)
- you lack the active, cerebral, social networker energy of So/Sp
- you're clearly not Sx/So. they tend to be more dramatic, fiery and volatile

I don't relate at all to Sp/So, from what I've read. The blind spots of the Sp/So are areas that I'm acutely aware of. I also neglect my health and don't give much thought to physical safety. I'm concerned with emotional and mental security -- in order words, reconciliation of internal conflicts, whether emotional or cognitive dissonances -- but I don't know if that has anything to do with Sp.

I'm leaning towards So/Sx because of the second quote you posted, though I still identify strongly with many major Sx/Sp traits. Now that I've given it more thought, my concern with "being a part of something larger than myself" might have more to do with my upbringing than genuine instinct.

 

[Elfboy]

I don't relate at all to Sp/So, from what I've read. The blind spots of the Sp/So are areas that I'm acutely aware of. I also neglect my health and don't give much thought to physical safety. I'm concerned with emotional and mental security -- in order words, reconciliation of internal conflicts, whether emotional or cognitive dissonances -- but I don't know if that has anything to do with Sp.
I'm leaning towards So/Sx because of the second quote you posted, though I still identify strongly with many major Sx/Sp traits. Now that I've given it more thought, my concern with "being a part of something larger than myself" might have more to do with my upbringing than genuine instinct.

it was part of my upbringing too, but it's one of those things that either resonates with you or it doesn't. I'm leaning So/Sx for you

 

[mintleaf]

[MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] - what would you say my tritype is, based on this thread? I'm already pretty confident of what it is, but I'm curious what others' impressions are.

 

[small.wonder]

actually, 1-1 is also Sp, and So/Sx tends to prefer smaller, more intimate groups of people. it's So/Sp that is the most comfortable in large groups, everyone else prefers smaller groups or 1-1 interaction.
[MENTION=17424]decrescendo[/MENTION]
you seem either Sp/So or So/Sx.
- you're clearly not Social last (social last types can fit in when necessary, but the idea of "being a part of something larger than yourself" does not appeal to either Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx)
- you lack the active, cerebral, social networker energy of So/Sp
- you're clearly not Sx/So. they tend to be more dramatic, fiery and volatile

Oh, hmm...You've made me think I may be sx/so then, I have been called all three of those words (though I've tamed that a bit now). I do desire a larger social community, I just kind of suck at it and can't handle it sometimes...?

 

[Entropic]

To so types, what does social community mean to you?

 

[mintleaf]

fantastic. I'm back to identifying with all three types again.

just gonna do the same thing I did in the OP, but elaborate

Social: I'm not as interested in social issues as I'd thought at the time I started this thread. Public spaces, whether tangible or not, make me feel detached and invaded. I don't have a Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. I have a Tumblr to keep track of writing and art I love and to connect with a small number of strangers. Like [MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION] wrote above, I'm clearly interested in the larger social sphere, but I struggle to connect with it...I never feel at home within any large group, nor remotely comfortable. I'm much more polite and open in writing, so that might throw some people here off in terms of vibe. IRL, I'm less willing to invest energy in appearing welcoming and engaged. Finding a niche socially -- which takes an abnormally long time for me -- does make me feel more defined, though. I prefer knowing my place/role via meaningful one-to-one relationships, but if they're not available, knowing my place in a group is an okay substitute.

Sexual: Intimacy is extremely important to me, but I keep most people at arm's length because I'm incredibly picky about whom I let into my inner circle. I can't emphasize that enough. I'm very distant, and self-disclosure is so hard for me that whenever I voice my emotions it feels like a terrifying out-of-body experience. (Like, I've read about simple partial seizures, and those symptoms are similar to what I feel, though I doubt I'm epileptic.) I've been called intense and erratic. By people who know me less well: resilient, calm, and grounded.
Without regularly experiencing emotional highs, intensity, etc., I don't feel like life's worth living. I usually don't need a lot of stimulation to experience that, though...the less, the better. Withdrawing from distractions (whether internal or external) makes me feel infinitely impassioned. But at other times, I do need that stimulation, indulging in any trigger I can find.

Self-preservation:

• There's this theory that sp-firsts are those who were forced into independence as a young child. I have a brother, three years younger than me, with severe special needs. I've always been more like a second mother to him than a sister, and though I honestly never felt cheated in this way, my parents' attention has always had to be on him. On the other hand, so-firsts are supposedly those who were raised in multi-generational homes, and while that wasn't my exact experience, my extended family has always been very close. Always had close family friends, too.
• As an NF E1, I tend to downplay my physical concerns, thinking I'm above them. But I do love feeling comfortable and secure. I'm picky about my food, my bedding, chairs, hygiene products, clothes, etc.
• this is still very true:

  I'm concerned with emotional and mental security -- in other words, reconciliation of internal conflicts, whether emotional or cognitive dissonances -- but I don't know if that has anything to do with Sp.

I'm leaning towards Sp/Sx at the moment...but then, what's with this drive to make the world a better place? and why am I so aware of social dynamics? I just know I'm not Sx-last, but Sx-first doesn't really resonate with me either. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the Sp instinct and am So/Sx instead. Or something else, I don't know.

Thanks, and sorry for the longer-than-necessary post.

 

[011235813]

How much do you identify with each of these descriptions?

As a Perfectionist, you believe that there is a correct or right way to live, and you vigilantly scan for standards that are being violated and need to be restored and respected. The anger (or guilt) that you feel is a signal that something or somebody (including yourself) is wrong and needs to be corrected or punished. You express and neutralize anger (or guilt) by righting wrongs or correcting errors. This energy manifests differently through three instinctual subtypes.

Self-preservation: Worry and anxiety/tenseness

You believe that your very survival depends upon getting things right. Your life is about shoulds instead of wants and desires. You channel anger (or guilt) into perennial worry and anxiety about doing the right thing and not making mistakes. You don’t believe the world is either generous or forgiving, so ultimately you worry alone. You resent the unfairness of life, but so what? You still must avoid the annihilating punishment from your inner critic, the thought-and-desire policeman. So you keep busy doing self-preservation tasks that keep the anxiety away, such as cleaning, keeping things in order or stocking up on provisions. You attempt to assert control and impose order over the natural world in matters of self-survival. It can look like you would rather be right than happy. Rightness becomes an imperative despite your desire and longing. At your worst, this worry can become very limiting and accompanied by much inner tension and little pleasure.

Social: Inadaptability/inflexibility

In the social domain, you channel your desire for rightness and its associated tension and anger into correct positions. You make the system better or right according to your absolute standards. You become a social reformer so to speak. Where these are concerned, you become inadaptable or inflexible, and screen out evidence contrary to your fervent position. You not only find what is wrong with other groups, causes and convictions, but you also see what is wrong about your own group. There is one right way and you must support it. While you may become comfortable temporarily with a secure social role and clear set of rules, you later resent and then become driven to correct “deviance” from the correct standards. At your worst, you can become possessed by righteous anger and dominated by black-white thinking characterized by an inability to see differing viewpoints.

One-to-One: Zealousness/heat

You guard intimate relationships and become vigilant and zealous about your conduct, your partner’s conduct or that of special others. You feel that nobody should violate your right to pleasure – you’ve earned it! You express anger through fierce zealousness at the presumed violation of your high standards. Nobody should take what is rightfully yours. “She shouldn’t do what she is doing.” Special others must adhere to correct behavior and standards. “You shouldn’t. You’re wrong.” This zealousness encompasses the violation of anything you judge as important in the relationship – a confidence, time spent together, getting undeserved recognition or fidelity. At your worst, you get totally possessive and intolerant, monitoring situations and special others, even flaming up in righteous rage.

Source

 

[mintleaf]

How much do you identify with each of these descriptions?

Source

Overwhelmingly Sp/Sx, according to that. Thanks for the descriptions. :]

 

[mintleaf]

one last question

reasons why the thought of being so-last confuses me:

• I really do get social dynamics. It's just that my place within a larger social context doesn't define me, and I never identify with it or value it very much. (But maybe that's because I haven't really liked most of the social groups I've been apart of?) And while I know when others' behavior is socially appropriate, I don't care if it's not, and I'm much less discerning when it comes to my own behavior.
• I like knowing that I'm an appreciated member of a group, and I try to be inclusive and not offend anyone
• I want to make a difference in the world. It's not about making my mark, it's about being able to live with myself. I have the opportunity and skills to make some sort of change for the better, so I would feel guilty not utilizing them

is that possible for a social-last?