PUZZLE ME OUT!!

[KatharineML]

Hmm. I am understanding all this a lot more now, which is great. I really don't think I am an INFP actually. I am absent minded like them and may seem like them a bit, possibly due to developing Fe, as you say, but I am not scared of people enough, if you know what I mean. Not personally sensitive. I am sensitive toward others, but not particularly toward myself.

INFJ I have considered before also - this is a possibility but I do use Ti a lot, and didn't particularly relate with the use of Ni descriptions on that cognitive processes test.

In terms of Feeling vs Thinking. I don't like to hurt people - who does! - and I don't like emotional conflict, but I love a good rational debate. It is very hard to tell, with me, so I'm sure I'm on the cusp.

Ni or Ne - gosh ... who knows? When I said adventure, I meant, I like the feeling associated with strangeness or newness, not necessarily actually DOING anything people would consider adventurous (like adventure sports etc.) That's Ne, right? Not Se, I don't think. Or is it Ni, I'm very confused about that function!

Regarding Evie - someone on this site also thought she could be intp. But also, she is a caricature, which would make her more ditsy than anyone is in real life. I think the thing my kids think is like me, is the information giving aspect, and the absent minded funnyness (not funny sense of humour, funny to laugh AT!)

Regarding interaction styles - I have had to 'chart the course' for years, being a mother - you have to get people to places on time a lot! I tend to rely on routines for this, and have had to behave like a seargant major, though it is a great relief when I don't have to do this. Nevertheless, our children were late to school almost every day - I blamed this on the amount of children I had to get organised, but now I think about it, it's just because I found it hard to be utterly definite and controlling. I am firm, though, on things that matter, but it's complicated often ...

Maybe I am just confusing everyone now - I'm certainly confusing myself!

To clarify ... I certainly use Ti which could make me an INTP or an INFJ (developed tertiary).

I also probably use Fe as a pose to Fi, which could, again, make me an INTP (developed fourth function) or INFJ (second function)

I am almost definitely an N, but as to whether it's Ni or Ne, I still need clarification.

I am probably an introvert, but not a massive one.

BUm, gotta go now and get back to work - thanks for all your help!

 

[Jaidyn]

I admit I am not sure of the concensus view of these definitions of Ne vs Ni, but I have been using them and so far I have grown to understand functions much better with them. Mind you, these are NOT definitions by Jung, but I have found them quite good. Perhaps they will help you decide among them. And remeber, if you are certain of Ti, you certainly also have Fe. If you have Ne, you certainly have Si. If Ni, then Se. Although personally I "think" it would be easier determining Se vs Si. But that is just me.

Ne, or extroverted iNtuition, is dominant for ENxP, secondary for INxP, tertiary for ESxJ and
inferior for ISxJ. It is an outwardly exploratory attitude that encourages us to change, reinvent and
experiment with the external world in order to find new and interesting combinations and patterns.
Ne looks for novel outcomes and imagines how the things around you could be changed into other,
more interesting things. Ne sees new information as part of a larger, emerging, as of yet unseen
pattern that extends far beyond the self, and whose meaning will continue to change as the context
grows and we discover more of the all-encompassing pattern. Rather than directly confront an issue,
Ne will often broaden the context until the issue seems insignificant by comparison to the much
bigger and more expansive ideas it imagines.

As with all extroverted functions, Ne needs to be validated by external/objective information to have
meaning. So Ne users will often have many ideas very quickly but not know if they're good until they
hear other people's reactions to them, or have a chance to experiment and see what happens. Ne
wants very badly to be understood and appreciated by others. Note that Ne songwriters (e.g.
Brandon Boyd, ENFP) will typically write enough context clues and such into their work that you can
put the pieces together and infer what they were thinking when they wrote it. They want others to
put the pieces together and get it.

and

Ni, or introverted iNtuition, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior
for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we
could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the
subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles. Rather than
directly confront an issue, Ni will often solve problems by simply looking at them from a different
angle. Doing a bunch of community service sucks? Just think of it as an opportunity to get lots of
exercise! Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only
thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. Ni leads you to try and see
"through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people
are not perceptive enough to pick up on...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories,
a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.

Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most
people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than
everyone else. They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they
cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work
around the attitudes of others.

As with all introverted functions, Ni doesn't pay attention to external conditions outside the self so it
doesn't care if anyone else grasps the ideas the same way the Ni user does. To Ni, I get the
significance and that's all that matters. Ni songwriters (e.g. Thom Yorke, INFJ) will often write lyrics
that could not possibly make any sense to other people without a direct explanation from the writer,
but they don't really care because Ni considers intuition such a personal thing that it can't make its
perspective/ideas clear to others very easily at all, and frequently doesn't even bother trying.

For another example, Isaac Newton (INTJ) invented calculus and didn't bother telling anyone about it
for 20 years. Ne would have been out showing the idea to others and changing it based on their
reactions--but not Ni!

As a result Ne is typically much better at putting its abstract ideas into terms that others will
understand than Ni.

On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same
way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.)
Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects
to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid
definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its
understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible.

 

[KatharineML]

NTs are known to analyse something and break it down to its core elements. Is this description the sort of thing your thesis/book would be like?

I didn't answer this question yet so I will now. My thesis will be an analysis, critique and clarification of the various streams of thought and their influence on what we believe about femininity and womanhood - and thus our identity, expectations and experience as women, with an attempt at creating a 'new' definition. My book will be more practical - aimed at revealing the false information abounding in this arena, and helping women find their way in the quagmire of different ideas about who they should and shouldn't be and what they should and shouldn't do. To find themselves again. To know their power and how to use it well. It will be an educational book and, hopefully, an illuminating book that will bring relief and some solid ground to go from in the everyday decisions we must all make.

Another thing I wanted to clarify was how I think of adventure: An adventure for me is not necessarily what others would call an adventure - it is often just a new thought which colours and clarifies everything differently and gives me a whole new mental landscape to explore and understand.

I hope someone is going to be getting the gist of me soon - I can give you endless information about me but I dont' want to bore everyone too much

 

[UniqueMixture]

Gosh, I am in a desert and there is a box. It is just an ordinary box. Yet just it's being there is magical ...

Watch this video then read my commentary below:

I think in general the more introverted someone is the more likely they are to say their cube is opaque rather than translucent although this can sometimes be an IxTx vs ExFx thing/a ISxx vs ENxx thing. I think introverts are also more likely to say that their cube is smaller than their physical height and extraverts more likely to say the cube is larger than their physical height.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

I didn't answer this question yet so I will now. My thesis will be an analysis, critique and clarification of the various streams of thought and their influence on what we believe about femininity and womanhood - and thus our identity, expectations and experience as women, with an attempt at creating a 'new' definition. My book will be more practical - aimed at revealing the false information abounding in this arena, and helping women find their way in the quagmire of different ideas about who they should and shouldn't be and what they should and shouldn't do. To find themselves again. To know their power and how to use it well. It will be an educational book and, hopefully, an illuminating book that will bring relief and some solid ground to go from in the everyday decisions we must all make.

The bolded is sort of Ni, with the fact you are turning something on its head, looking at it from new angles, so others will see this new perspective. But there isn't enough evidence to suggest that you use Ni rather than Ne. I don't know about the rest; I think any type could do this kind of thing. Although the analysis and critique suggests Ti again.

Another thing I wanted to clarify was how I think of adventure: An adventure for me is not necessarily what others would call an adventure - it is often just a new thought which colours and clarifies everything differently and gives me a whole new mental landscape to explore and understand.

I'm not too sure on this- it seems like it could be either Ne or Ni. What do you think of the definitions provided by [MENTION=17748]Jaidyn[/MENTION]?

You're definitely either INTP or INFJ. I think the former. It shouldn't be too hard to decide between the two now.

I dont' want to bore everyone too much

Haha, you won't. You just need to post the information, we'll get there in the end.

 

[KatharineML]

I admit I am not sure of the concensus view of these definitions of Ne vs Ni, but I have been using them and so far I have grown to understand functions much better with them. Mind you, these are NOT definitions by Jung, but I have found them quite good. Perhaps they will help you decide among them. And remeber, if you are certain of Ti, you certainly also have Fe. If you have Ne, you certainly have Si. If Ni, then Se. Although personally I "think" it would be easier determining Se vs Si. But that is just me.


and

Thanks Jaidyn, I read these and I think you're right, it would be easier determining between Se and Si I'll look into that ...

I like definitions though, and I like people to understand what I write or say etc., so maybe Ni is unlikely? Though if combined with Fe it might seek to communicate more effectively? What do you think?

Since the primary/tertiary function mix looks different, I would need to know; what does Ni look like for an INFJ, and what does Ne look like for an INTP? Anybody got any clear ideas on this?

 

[KatharineML]

I admit I am not sure of the concensus view of these definitions of Ne vs Ni, but I have been using them and so far I have grown to understand functions much better with them. Mind you, these are NOT definitions by Jung, but I have found them quite good. Perhaps they will help you decide among them. And remeber, if you are certain of Ti, you certainly also have Fe. If you have Ne, you certainly have Si. If Ni, then Se. Although personally I "think" it would be easier determining Se vs Si. But that is just me.


and

Thanks Jaidyn, I read these and I think you're right, it would be easier determining between Se and Si I'll look into that ...

I like definitions though, and I like people to understand what I write or say etc., so maybe Ni is unlikely? Though if combined with Fe it might seek to communicate more effectively? What do you think?

Since the primary/tertiary function mix looks different, I would need to know; what does Ni look like for an INFJ, and what does Ne look like for an INTP? Anybody got any clear ideas on this?

 

[Jaidyn]

Since the primary/tertiary function mix looks different, I would need to know; what does Ni look like for an INFJ, and what does Ne look like for an INTP? Anybody got any clear ideas on this?

From the same source as my Ni/Ne definitions (again, unsure if most people here would agree with these but they are my favorite and very clear to me):

INFJ - Dominant: Introverted iNtuition (Ni)
"I just like putting all of life's little dreams in perspective. The real world is inside my head.
Imagination is the doorway to the world--if you can imagine it, then it exists. The difficulty lies in
compromising that world enough to get along with the other one. I mean, if you think about it, I have
no proof that you or anybody else really exists. Is anything really 'true' in the most ultimate sense? Or is
whatever we think of as 'truth' just another frame of reference, with no more objective value than
anything else? I try not to take any one definition of reality too seriously, because then I lose the ability
to give equal consideration to others."

As introverted perception (Pi) dominants, INFJs are constantly busy with the private inner world of
subjective association of signs and symbols with personalized meaning. Both Pi functions (Ni and Si)
are concerned with generating internalized impressions of past experience--in this way they are quite
similar. But while Si depends on specific and concrete sensory data to build its personal conceptual
map of meaning, Ni instead depends on more vague and loosely defined skeletons of the intangible and
abstract relationships between ideas. It can't build a map as thorough and complete as that of an Si type
who has directly experienced all of the information in a given area, but it can use the conceptual
outlines of its own experiences to "fill in the blanks" and predict how related experiences that it hasn't
actually had will feel in terms of the personal impression they create.

Often, the way a particular piece of information strikes them is simply too dependent upon the
assumptions inherent in Ni's worldview to make its significance meaningful to anyone else. Putting it
into words ruins the point because words are yet another limited medium which carries too many
inherent assumptions to fully carve out an effective vocabulary for the conceptual impressions in which
Ni specializes.

As an introverted perception function, dominant Ni is not making any kind of value judgments. It's
only taking in impressions--as many different possible interpretations of the significance of any given
idea or event as possible. That may sound similar to Ne on the surface, but it's not--Ne is picking up a
lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them; Ni is picking
one idea or event at a time and examining ("from a clean slate", as Yukawa says) every angle of every
component of that one thing in order to find any as-of-yet untried interpretations that might cause us to
view the whole issue in an entirely new light.

While Ne explodes into a million new places from one starting point, Ni is much more comfortable
"imploding" into an overarching interpretation that combines many different disparate elements into
one more cohesive whole. Often this results in the keen ability to pare down many different apparently
disparate options into the best and most effective option for the singular vision that the INFJ's judgment
functions have decided is the best use of time. This ability often leads others to see INFJs as possessing
some sort of mystical, almost supernatural foresight; of course, there is nothing supernatural about--Ni
simply notes the general ideas implied by conceptual impressions, and from there it's not a difficult
jump to imagine how they might be deconstructed or rearranged for different purposes. Ni dominants
are often surprised and a little perplexed that others don't naturally see the unstated meaning that
characterizes their entire self-experience.

Ni dislikes forcing rationalized structure onto its conceptual impressions because that structure is
bound to operate under a certain set of assumptions which may prematurely (and without even realizing
it) eliminate the very kind of information Ni is interested in: using past experiences with related
conceptual frameworks to eliminate the barriers on its holistic understanding of symbols and the
meaning they signify.

Often, INFJs feel that others operate under too many unstated assumptions of meaning to even follow
the esoteric trains of internal imagination in which they live. All too commonly this results in feelings
of isolation: the INFJ sees himself as too unorthodox in his very assumptions about the nature of reality
to fit into the frameworks by which most of the people surrounding him define themselves.

and

INTP - Auxiliary: Extroverted iNtuition (Ne)
"Overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind / Withering my intuition, leaving
opportunities behind."
--Tool, "Lateralus" (lyrics by Maynard James Keenan, INTP)

Unfortunately, the INTP's primary interests and skill sets are often esoteric at best, frequently not
lending themselves to much use in terms of connection and interaction with other human beings. While
the INTP may spend tremendous time and effort developing incredibly thorough understanding of
numerous multi-faceted concepts and ideas, he may find himself woefully unable to articulate their
meaning or significance to others without some method by which to connect abstract concepts to that
which his fellow man already understands.

When developed well, Ne will bestow the INTP with a number of positive balancing characteristics,
ranging from awareness of and desire to play to the expectations and interests of her audience to cross-
contextual perception of conceptual similarity and an accompanying (and somewhat unexpected)
ability to teach these concepts to others who lack understanding. For many INTPs, this becomes one of
the most valuable and far-reaching gifts that Ne has to offer--she may find, much to her surprise, that
her natural talent for noting structural similarities between the seemingly unrelated allows her to
rephrase the most abstruse hierarchies of ideas into surprisingly understandable unifying explanations
with which her audience can readily identify. This ability marks one of the more substantial and notable
differences between INTPs and INTJs: while Ni intuitively grasps conceptual symbolism quite readily,
the INTJ's comparative inability (or simple disinterest in trying) to "translate" such abstractions results
in a peculiar communicative disconnect which INTPs are frequently much more able to mitigate
through Ne.

Perhaps most importantly of all, Ne grants the INTP not only a broader understanding of the vast
interconnectedness of his various intellectual pursuits, but a sense of playful creativity and an excited
enthusiasm for new possibilities for the future. When Ne is developed poorly, and the INTP is left with
TiSi, his ever-looming sense of self-doubt and imminent awareness of the incompleteness of his own
understanding may lead to extreme social isolation and dejected burnout from repeated failures at
attempts to navigate the confusing and illogical world of external interaction. Ne encourages the INTP
to remember that, no matter what the failures and inadequacies of today have wrought, tomorrow will
be a new day full of new possibilities for different approaches, connections, and changes. If the current
model doesn't feel consistent, we can always adjust it, rework it, or tweak its variables and turn it into
something else tomorrow. The possibilities are endless--they're already out there, waiting to be found,
and it's up to us to rearrange the pieces until we find them.

Ne, ideally, should serve to balance out Ti's insistence on deductive perfection through complete
information by allowing the INTP to "fill in the blanks" and make rougher, more intuitive guesses at
information he may not yet possess or fully understand. As Ti would prefer to work with If/Then
statements which provide unifying explanations of wide ranges of theoretically absolute data, the
failure to consult Ne may often result in an uncomfortable unwillingness to take action or make any
attempt at something until the INTP feels he has complete enough information to solve for the entire
causality of the system in his mind. Properly developed Ne leads the INTP to accept the reality that life
is full of uncertainties, and that if we refuse to act without knowing all the variables, we never really
learn or progress. When he gets stuck at a critical juncture, Ne reminds him to just veer off and try
something different--even if it may not work every time or provide a complete explanation, it might
lead him to just what he needs to see in order to discover the next step in the process. It allows him to
break out of his shell and try new things just in case something unexpected happens, and it's this sort of
vibrant curiosity that combines best with Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge to produce a well-
rounded and psychologically balanced INTP.

 

[Jaidyn]

And just for completeness, I will give the Si/Se definitions I use as well. It may help determine Ni/Ne a bit more.

Se, or extroverted Sensing, is dominant for ESxP, secondary for ISxP, tertiary for ENxJ and inferior
for INxJ. It is the attitude that what is directly apparent in our immediate physical surroundings is
the most important thing to go by. Se leads you to follow your gut instincts, pay very close attention
to what's going on around you, and respond to things in the moment in whatever way will make the
strongest and most immediate guttural, sensory impact on others. Se users are so present-focused
that they're often on the cutting edge of new trends because they place so much emphasis on what
is current and new. They like to learn things via a hands-on, figure-it-out-by-experimenting-as-you-
go, direct experiential approach (in this way they are similar to Ne) but they are more focused on
what is immediately tangible than on what their surroundings might be changed into. They usually
pay a lot of attention to their physical appearance and are very good with reading body language
and using it to immediately size up a person or a situation and respond instinctively. They can be
quite impulsive and prone to overindulgence in sensory pleasures, but they also know how to work a
crowd and they tend to make themselves into reflections of current popular trends--whatever will
make an impact.

Se is the opposite of Ni because it intentionally focuses on the literal surface meaning of exactly
what is going on right in front of you right now, whereas Ni tries to ignore that and see the hidden
meaning in what is not directly apparent.

and

Si, or introverted Sensing, is dominant for ISxJ, secondary for ESxJ, tertiary for INxP and inferior
for ENxP. It's related to Se in that it deals with sensory experience, but rather than constantly scan
for everything about what's going on now, it relies on internalizing those experiences into an
extremely detailed internal map of highly vivid *memories* of those past sensory experiences. This
dependence on reliving past experience and using it as a guide for the present leads to an extremely
good memory for detail, and a general attitude that going with what we know for sure from having
experienced it before is usually best.

Si is the opposite of Ne because rather than relate new information to some larger external,
constantly changing pattern, it tries to relate all new information to something it already knows,
some sensory data that it's absorbed from its past experiences. This leads to the classic Ne vs. Si
battle: Ne wants to try something new just for the sake of doing something different and finding
something interesting; Si wants to stick to what we've done before because its vivid memories of
direct experience allow us to relate the new information to that past information we've already
absorbed.

It's a common misconception that Si users are traditionalists on principle. In my experience, many
older Si users (xSxJ types have Si as dom/secondary) are traditionalists because the only source of
information they had was their parents and the traditions they were raised with, but these days
many younger SJs are much less traditionalist in nature because information is so much more freely
available than it was just a few generations ago. Si is not into tradition just for the sake of tradition;
it just likes to relate new information to something it already knows. Rules and traditions can be a
convenient way to do this, but it's a mistake to believe that Si always leads to traditionalism for its
own sake.

Si also does some really cool stuff like perfect pitch...I have one ISFJ friend (Si dominant) who can
tap into his past sensations of what a particular note sounded like and use it to identify some note
he hears now as a G#. That's amazing to me...as an Ne dom I only understand notes in terms of
their relationship to other notes in a larger pattern; Josh just taps right into his detailed sensory
memory and can identify the note by remembering what it sounded like before, on its own.

Si doms like to collect objects and facts that evoke pleasurable memories from the past. An Si who's
into history will collect books, photos, stamps, etc...an Si who's into music will collect instruments,
sheet music, photos of concerts, and so on. Many Si types love scrapbooking because looking back
at those old photos evokes those powerful, highly detailed sensory experiences from the past.

On a more morbid note, Dexter (from the TV series "Dexter") is probably ISTJ. He collects blood
slides because they evoke the detailed memories of his most enjoyable murder experiences from the
past. =/

Again, none of these definitions/descriptions are my own. I simply found them and found them much easier to understand and quite better than many of the others I found online that seem to simply repeat much of the same things without explaining much.

 

[KatharineML]

Thanks again Jaidyn That is really helpful. I am definitely an Ne, Si user, based on these definitions! If Ne is this: "Ne is picking up a
lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them" then that's definitely me. I also do like old photo's and old things, like Si - I find it very grounding and connecting to go through old photo's and relive memories and I've heard that it is common to use the Tertiary function in play or relaxation, so that would make sense if I am INTp.

One thing all this assessing has done is make me very clear that I am NOT infp, which is what others have often thought me to be. Fi is not all that strong in me at all.

So, what do you think? Have you got a vibe from me?

The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think? I would need to check out if I am using Fe or Ti as my primary function ... Jaidyn, maybe you have something you can cut and paste for me on that?

 

[KatharineML]

Thanks again Jaidyn That is really helpful. I am definitely an Ne, Si user, based on these definitions! If Ne is this: "Ne is picking up a
lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them" then that's definitely me. I also do like old photo's and old things, like Si - I find it very grounding and connecting to go through old photo's and relive memories and I've heard that it is common to use the Tertiary function in play or relaxation, so that would make sense if I am INTp.

One thing all this assessing has done is make me very clear that I am NOT infp, which is what others have often thought me to be. Fi is not all that strong in me at all.

So, what do you think? Have you got a vibe from me?

The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think? I would need to check out if I am using Fe or Ti as my primary function ... Jaidyn, maybe you have something you can cut and paste for me on that?

 

[Jaidyn]

Thanks again Jaidyn That is really helpful. I am definitely an Ne, Si user, based on these definitions! If Ne is this: "Ne is picking up a
lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them" then that's definitely me. I also do like old photo's and old things, like Si - I find it very grounding and connecting to go through old photo's and relive memories and I've heard that it is common to use the Tertiary function in play or relaxation, so that would make sense if I am INTp.

One thing all this assessing has done is make me very clear that I am NOT infp, which is what others have often thought me to be. Fi is not all that strong in me at all.

So, what do you think? Have you got a vibe from me?

The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think? I would need to check out if I am using Fe or Ti as my primary function ... Jaidyn, maybe you have something you can cut and paste for me on that?

Not a problem at all. I enjoy being able to help if possible. As far as a vibe I am getting from you, I almost want to say INTP but that is due to your comment about not wanting to bore us. That sounded just like my bf who is also an INTP and says things like that all the time. However that is not something I would take too seriously. More than anything, that comment from you made me smile.

As for more of my copy/paste info, I have plenty more. Regarding INTP and ENFJ dominant functions:

INTP - Dominant: Introverted Thinking (Ti)
"I guess more than anything I just want things to make sense. I frequently feel like most people around
me make decisions based on totally irrational criteria and it's hard to see how they can miss the basic
building blocks of common sense logical reasoning and decision-making. I like to work with systems,
especially theoretical systems of ideas that represent concepts that interest me--the more complex and
interrelated, the better. There's something aesthetically appealing about designing and reworking
systems; creating symmetry that suggests a sense of total systemic completeness is something that
brings me a lot of enjoyment. It's really important that things remain fair and consistent--if I don't feel
I'm being treated fairly or reasonably, I will speak up and explain in detail exactly what's wrong with
the flawed reasoning that's being used against me. I go to great pains to maximize clarity and
conceptual precision when I'm dealing with others, and I expect them to do the same. If I can't establish
a clear definition of an idea, then how can I connect it meaningfully to anything else?"

INTPs firmly believe that conceptual analysis and evaluation is not for the faint of heart. What they're
after is no less than absolute correctness, definitional precision, and universal truth. Almost quixotic in
this idealistic search to grasp the nature of everything, INTPs believe everything can ultimately be
defined, categorized, and succinctly systematized into a single unified conceptual picture--even if that
degree of completeness is not something humankind can ever expect to achieve.

Unlike INTJs, who resist strict conceptual definition until empirical evidence renders it indisputable,
INTPs must categorize and define their ideas into clearly distinct blocks before they can even begin a
discourse or exchange of information. Dominant Ti creates such a keen awareness of definitional
specificity that INTPs often garner a reputation for nitpicking that borders on neurotic and may drive
other types up the wall. (After all, you can't spell "nitpick" without "INTP".) And while they may
sometimes abuse this ability in order to play games with others or establish their own intellectual
superiority, more often than not, they simply recognize definitional differences to a much finer degree
of detail than most other types are even capable of discerning. Until we know precisely what our words
denote and connote, we can't even make any meaningful differentiations--which are, of course, the
foundation for everything.

INTPs most often find work in areas where they can apply their sense of internal structural identity to
complex systems of ideas where they can broaden the scope of a problem and discover a new area in
which to work out all of the intricate relationships that make up the defining characteristics and total
framework thereof. For Ti, practical application is rarely much of a concern; INTPs are in the business
of idea development for the sake of learning and cerebral expansion. If they can map out an area of
reality that as of yet lacks definition, INTPs may find a sense of purpose by feeling they've contributed
to the development or clarification of humankind's understanding, demystifying something previously
not understood.

It's hard to overstate the importance of fitting everything in the universe and the entire realm of
existence into Ti's overarching sense of the total causality of all the relationships, properties, and
axioms that make up the definition of everything involved in life as we know it. When a new piece of
information contradicts Ti's previously understood rule set, there is no choice but to retreat into private
introspection until the inevitable error in reasoning is discovered and the causal chain of deduction
repaired, checked, and double checked for consistent flow of rhetorical integrity. Each piece of a
system implies the necessity of other pieces filling counterbalancing but symmetrical roles: with
enough If/Then statements and explanations of possible conditions and situational exceptions to them,
literally everything can ultimately be mapped out and explained and shown to adhere to a global sense
of logical predictability. The universe cannot function any other way. If we're still running into wrong
conclusions, it's either because we started with bad premises or we haven't created enough subsections
of systemic explanation yet: either way, the answer always lies in further analysis and reevaluation.

Like all Ji dominant (IxxP) types, INTPs are, above all, people of principle, and they will defend those
principles to the death (especially if you try to debate them!) The search for truth outweighs any
transient cultural values, transcends any perceptual bias or interpretive difference, renders irrelevant
any lesser or arbitrarily chosen values, and represents the ultimate ideal to which all should feel
privileged to have even the most fleeting encounter with. It is of vital importance to the INTP to seek
knowledge purely for the sake of understanding, and to uphold his sense of logical integrity in the
process. Anything less would be, well, illogical.

and

ENFJ - Dominant: Extroverted Feeling (Fe)
"I think I would say that my most valuable gift is that I understand people. I know what their needs are,
and I know how they relate to other people's needs, and I'm good at connecting different kinds of
people in a way that helps them help each other. I think it's really important to know who your friends
are, and to remember to stay loyal to the people you're close to. I'm a really good listener, and I try my
best to take people's concerns seriously and respond in a way that I know will make them feel more
comfortable, more at ease with whatever problem they're having. I'm good at figuring out what people
think is important, and then fitting in with their expectations and making a positive, lasting impression
when I interact with them. I like to be seen as confident and capable, but also sympathetic to people's
feelings and ideas. I don't generally have any problem organizing people and leading them toward a
common goal--since I can identify so well with most people, I can be pretty persuasive; often I can see
very easily the middle ground between opposing perspectives, and from there it's just a matter of
explaining people's differences in a way that makes both parties happy. I really like it when I can make
a positive difference to someone in a meaningful way--I try to show the world my best side as often as I
can. More than anything, though, it's important to be there for the people that matter to you--if you can't
do that, how can you expect anyone else to be there for you?"

Often mistaken for a variety of other types due to their renowned interpersonal abilities, ENFJs may
very well be the one type least in need of typological methodology. As type theory itself is intended
primarily to increase understanding of foreign value systems in order to improve ability to interact
effectively with others--something healthy ENFJs tend to do so naturally they can scarcely turn it off--
they may often find themselves so naturally adept at accommodating and outwardly validating the
values of others that they can appear almost chameleon-like in how their behavior may change from
one group to the next. As dominant extroverted feelers, ENFJs are champions of the values espoused by
their communities, and they make concerted efforts to make themselves into living examples of those
values, both for their own benefit and for that of those around them.

When discussing Fe dominants, it's important to note that the collectivized moral ideals by which they
define their identities are not limited to traditional family or community groups. It's a common mistake
to assume that ENFJs will automatically change their values to fit whatever group happens to
physically surround them at the moment--and while they may do this when they wish to make a
particular impression, or when the group immediately surrounding them holds values that don't conflict
substantially with those they find important, their primary focus in life is aligning themselves with
groups of other people with whom they can develop a common moral viewpoint and thus establish an
objective system of ethical expectations by which everyone can be held accountable. Unlike Fi types,
who develop highly individualized, internal moral compasses, ENFJs may often wonder how they can
make any meaningful moral decision without knowing how the people they find important (i.e., those
with whom their relationships create the fabric of their public identities) feel about the issue in
question. This is not to say ENFJs don't have any moral ideas of their own; they simply conceptualize
morality as a concept that should be discussed and agreed upon by the groups of people who intend to
define their relationships to each other through common adherence to them.

As Fe dominants, ENFJs strive to make themselves into paragons of the ideals and values represented
by their connections to others. They're generally very aware of the implications of who they choose to
associate themselves with, and they tend to know just how to say whatever it is that they need to say to
get others on board with their causes and goals. It's not uncommon to see them championing the causes
of the weak and downtrodden--in many cases, their rare ability to "translate" between competing value
systems combines with their natural interpersonal organizational skills to produce an unusually
powerful, charismatic presence. The skills commonly associated with this mindset may be applied
toward both positive and very negative ends. While few can unite a crowd under a common goal with
the ENFJ's unique balance of personal charm and decisive vision, not all of them are above abusing this
gift for purposes of ousting or defaming an enemy--no one can an appeal to an entire group's collective
sentiments and convince them to brand someone "an outsider" faster than an ENFJ.

Another major issue that often arises for both Fe dominant types (ENFJ, ESFJ) is the tendency to spend
so much time focusing on the feelings and needs of others that one's own emotional necessities may
become neglected or, worse, completely ignored. Intent on adjusting the way they feel to the way the
people close to them feel, Fe dominants may run into substantial conflicts of interest when their own
private assessments of people or situations fly in the face of the cultural and social expectations
espoused by the people they love and respect. Conflict avoidance and mediation become major points
of interest--since conflict between members of the same party suggests discord among the values that
create the bond between the members thereof (which threatens the fabric of cultural connection upon
which interpersonal groupings are founded), ENFJs view ability to set aside one's own misgivings in
favor of that which will benefit their associates to be the ultimate sign of selflessness and maturity.

Manifestations of this outlook may be something of a double-edged sword: while this leads many
ENFJs to develop their natural talents at conflict resolution and caregiving, it may result in a confusing
disconnect between what the ENFJ really does want, and that which he is expected to want--that which
the others to whom he holds obligations desire. Overemphasis on dominant Fe may result in difficulty
with defining any sort of clear sense of self at all!

 

[Jaidyn]

The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think?

Just incase you feel a connection to ENFJ, here is the Ni function as it would typically appear in the ENFJ:

ENFJ - Auxiliary: Introverted iNtuition (Ni)
In most cases, ENFJs seem to describe the function of auxiliary Ni in their own cognitive hierarchies as
providing a sense of direction and/or spiritual connection to something greater than themselves. They
rarely feel it necessary to define or "box in" this connection in directly explicit terms--doing so would
violate the spirit of personalized, subjective definitional freedom upon which the Ni attitude thrives--
but rather, it seems to represent finding that which impresses upon them a sense of global significance
(especially the recurring theme that "everything happens for a reason"), that there is something much
more important than ourselves and our immediate needs and everyday struggles going on beneath the
surface of our outwards selves. I've heard ENFJs describe Ni's role--even those who don't know
typology and don't realize this is what they're describing--by focusing on the development of their own
self-awareness, especially in terms of the social and interpersonal situations where they feel most
comfortable and in control. ENFJs are known for their strong communicative abilities, but only as
auxiliary Ni develops do they begin to develop total awareness of the inner workings of the effects of
their own cognitive tendencies on their outlooks and approaches to life.

For ENFJs, development of auxiliary Ni seems to coincide with a revelatory (and somewhat sudden)
increase in total perspective. Priorities are rearranged, unhealthy or counterproductive relationships are
severed or restructured, while new and more fulfilling ones replace them as the ENFJ begins to develop
an idea of what she wants the long-term implications of her life and actions to signify. "What does it all
mean?" Life may strike them as a random series of meaningless events that can only be granted value
and structure through the cultural and moral approval of others they feel close to--and while these sorts
of personal connections are and always will be the central focus of their lives, the development of Ni
will create a sense of individual perspective by which the normative values promoted by Fe can be put
into context and understood more completely, in a way that operates outside the confines of the
assumptions by which dominant Fe would normally lead the ENFJ to define her entire outlook. In
short, Ni grants the ENFJ a much-needed self-analytical disposition, an ability to rethink, redefine, and
(hopefully) improve the boundaries of the obligations by which she creates her relationships to others
and the outside world. The balanced ENFJ recognizes that even though her cultural values and the
relationships she builds upon them are the driving forces in her own life, there are many other possible
value systems and many other ways of interpreting them. To be truly happy and satisfied, she must
keep an open mind toward new possibilities and potential epistemic viewpoints--or risk becoming lost
and entrenched in a misguided set of collective values, associating with all the wrong people and not
even realizing it.

Earlier in life, ENFJs may find themselves so naturally adept at telling people what they want to hear
that they become accustomed to auto-piloting through social interaction and emotional support of
others. Without substantial Ni, they may neglect the deeper implications of the social "scripts" they find
themselves effortlessly repeating day in and day out. If, on the other hand, Ni is applied in excess, the
ENFJ may end up isolating himself to a much greater degree than he's truly comfortable with, primarily
out of fear of being unprepared to deal with interpersonal problems and situations. With every problem
solved, he will see only further problems with more implications, each requiring tremendous
investments of time and personal consideration before any real action can be taken. He may find
himself reading much further into the words and actions of others than practical considerations dictate--
he may struggle with the fear that no one truly respects him, that everyone is hiding a secret desire to
force him out of the group dynamic and leave him alone to fend for himself. While the proper dosage
of Ni provides a balancing effect and a refreshing sense of perspective, excess focus on unstated and
implied meaning may lead to some degree of paranoia, short-circuiting the interpersonal skills upon
which the ENFJ builds his self-confidence.

 

[Jaidyn]

[MENTION=17702]KatharineML[/MENTION],
Actually, after going through this thread again, it seems certain based on consensus and your own opinion that you are a Ti, Si and likely Ne user which gives us Ti, Fe, Si, and Ne (not necessarily in that order). Also since you have not completely elliminated Extroversion from your options, that gives us four types. INTP, ENTP, ESFJ, and ISFJ.

You decided that it is most certain that you are not an "S" type which leaves only INTP and ENTP as options. However based on things you have said earlier on in the thread, the extroversion of the ENTP just doesn't seem to match you. I am almost certain that (as most everyone else has concluded) you are an INTP.

Mind you I am extrememly new to typology and have been having my own issues typing myself as you well know... although I am almost certain in being ENFJ. So please keep in mind how new I am to this. However based on helping my family verify their type and from much research I have done on this... the best way to determine type is just to go through the functions defintions. Once you decide Ti/Te and Si/Se based on what you feel are good definitions of the functions, you can pretty reliably find your type.

Of course there are many who don't like using functions and think the dichotomies of I/E, N/S, F/T, and J/P are the only way to go. Personally I disagree, but c'est la vie.

If you have any other questions, if as a noob to this I can help in any way, I would be happy to. But I do not pretend to be an expert and I am sure many, MANY others here are better at this than I.

 

[KatharineML]

Thanks again Jaidyn This stuff is really interesting, though I confess, I am not able to give it enough of a thorough reading right now, I'll have to go over it again at the weekend. It's still confusing to me though - when I read the first two INTP and ENFJ descriptions, I thought I related to them both!! But then, when I read the description of auxiliary use of Ni (ENFJ), I didn't relate at all - especially to this sentence "Earlier in life, ENFJs may find themselves so naturally adept at telling people what they want to hear that they become accustomed to auto-piloting through social interaction and emotional support of others." I am way more on the side of arguing for my principles, than saying what people want to hear ("INTPs are, above all, people of principle, and they will defend those principles to the death (especially if you try to debate them!) The search for truth outweighs any transient cultural values, transcends any perceptual bias or interpretive difference, renders irrelevant any lesser or arbitrarily chosen values, and represents the ultimate ideal to which all should feel privileged to have even the most fleeting encounter with"). So I revisited the first ENFJ description and realised that it is not me at all, though I think it might be who I TRY to be in some ways? Or who I think I should be, maybe? Yet really, I want to educate people far more than I want to listen to people (ouch), and I HATE the middle ground I am a truth seeker and don't much like compromise, for any reason, though I DO value compassion, humility, curiosity and open-ness to new things.

Another thing - I DEFINITELY worry about boring people

One prob with INTP though - I tend not to argue up front about principles, though I can explain them eloquently to a willing audience. And I am not so sure I would do well in a proper verbal logical debate. I write instead. People often value me for what they call my 'common sense' and seem to enjoy listening to my opinions and explanations, and I am always excited when someone actually wants to hear what I've got to say, but if someone is antagonistic towards me, I tend to shrink back and lose my ability to speak logically, clearly, confidently. Is this likely for an INTP? The descriptions above make them sound super confident in their ideas and ability to express them when challenged?

 

[Jaidyn]

Thanks again Jaidyn This stuff is really interesting, though I confess, I am not able to give it enough of a thorough reading right now, I'll have to go over it again at the weekend. It's still confusing to me though - when I read the first two INTP and ENFJ descriptions, I thought I related to them both!! But then, when I read the description of auxiliary use of Ni (ENFJ), I didn't relate at all - especially to this sentence "Earlier in life, ENFJs may find themselves so naturally adept at telling people what they want to hear that they become accustomed to auto-piloting through social interaction and emotional support of others." I am way more on the side of arguing for my principles, than saying what people want to hear ("INTPs are, above all, people of principle, and they will defend those principles to the death (especially if you try to debate them!) The search for truth outweighs any transient cultural values, transcends any perceptual bias or interpretive difference, renders irrelevant any lesser or arbitrarily chosen values, and represents the ultimate ideal to which all should feel privileged to have even the most fleeting encounter with"). So I revisited the first ENFJ description and realised that it is not me at all, though I think it might be who I TRY to be in some ways? Or who I think I should be, maybe? Yet really, I want to educate people far more than I want to listen to people (ouch), and I HATE the middle ground I am a truth seeker and don't much like compromise, for any reason, though I DO value compassion, humility, curiosity and open-ness to new things.

Another thing - I DEFINITELY worry about boring people

One prob with INTP though - I tend not to argue up front about principles, though I can explain them eloquently to a willing audience. And I am not so sure I would do well in a proper verbal logical debate. I write instead. People often value me for what they call my 'common sense' and seem to enjoy listening to my opinions and explanations, and I am always excited when someone actually wants to hear what I've got to say, but if someone is antagonistic towards me, I tend to shrink back and lose my ability to speak logically, clearly, confidently. Is this likely for an INTP? The descriptions above make them sound super confident in their ideas and ability to express them when challenged?

Hiya [MENTION=17702]KatharineML[/MENTION]! :-D

Yeah, honestly the stuff I bolded above is EXACTLY like my INTP bf. He is a very honest person and always has a ton of new things he is getting into. He loves to write short-stories for role-playing games, haikus, he studies philosophy and history. But the moment anyone is antagonistic towards him, he shrinks back like you said. Like a turtle hiding into his shell. He freezes up and sometimes just has to hang-up the phone or just go lay down in bed and just stare-off into nothingness. Mind you he has some other emotional issues that don't help matters much, but otherwise you sound exactly like him.
And it isn't that he argues about principle as such as he argues things that go for or against his "ideals". For instance, he loves devising philosophical or psychological models of how things work. One good example is that a few years ago, he had a strong belief in how the "soul" is constructed, the various parts of it, where it originates and such. He believed at one point that it was composed of at least 6 parts or so. Apparently his view reflected an ancient hawaiian view or something. Anyhow, as he and I discussed it back then, he realized there were things he hadn't considered about his theory which he put so much time into. There arose conflicts and such that he really was not happy about in the slightest. He attempted to discuss these with me, we got into some religio/philosophical debates about it and he would realize that his particular ideas just couldn't hold up in the particular way he wanted. He had a hard time coming to terms with it and would become depressed. Now I am not sure depression in such a case is normal in the way he did but it isn't something I would be surprised about. If you recall the Dominant Ti description for INTP:

Almost quixotic in this idealistic search to grasp the nature of everything, INTPs believe everything can ultimately be defined, categorized, and succinctly systematized into a single unified conceptual picture--even if that
degree of completeness is not something humankind can ever expect to achieve...
It's hard to overstate the importance of fitting everything in the universe and the entire realm of
existence into Ti's overarching sense of the total causality of all the relationships, properties, and
axioms that make up the definition of everything involved in life as we know it. When a new piece of
information contradicts Ti's previously understood rule set, there is no choice but to retreat into private
introspection until the inevitable error in reasoning is discovered and the causal chain of deduction
repaired, checked, and double checked for consistent flow of rhetorical integrity. Each piece of a
system implies the necessity of other pieces filling counterbalancing but symmetrical roles: with
enough If/Then statements and explanations of possible conditions and situational exceptions to them,
literally everything can ultimately be mapped out and explained and shown to adhere to a global sense
of logical predictability. The universe cannot function any other way. If we're still running into wrong
conclusions, it's either because we started with bad premises or we haven't created enough subsections
of systemic explanation yet: either way, the answer always lies in further analysis and reevaluation.

The quote above pretty much reflects exactly what I am talking about with my bf. I mean he could be talking about the makeup of the soul, which religion is the "correct" one, the nature of "time", these kind of things. Or we could just talking about his simple aesthetic tastes in mundane things like how he HATES the game Minecraft because it isn't "beautiful" but loves the game World of Warcraft because it is pleasing to the eye. In that same Ti quote, one of the lines that sums him up perfectly is

Dominant Ti creates such a keen awareness of definitional
specificity that INTPs often garner a reputation for nitpicking that borders on neurotic and may drive
other types up the wall. (After all, you can't spell "nitpick" without "INTP".)

Yeah... this is totally him. And I am certain he is an INTP. Even if you aren't EXACTLY like this, no one person is EXACTLY like the type or function descriptions. Or maybe they are but they do things to a different degree or manifestation. From the little you have shared about yourself I would still say you are likely an INTP. I have no doubt. Maybe the experts here may disagree with me, but I doubt many will as this has pretty much been more and more accepted by a few here as your likely type. Hopefully this helps and if you like, I can provide you with the auxilary, tertiary and inferior function descriptions for the INTP in particular that I have if you like.

I am glad this has been a help to you and that you come to a good understanding about yourself and your type.

 

[Jaidyn]

The descriptions above make them sound super confident in their ideas and ability to express them when challenged?

I am actually going to give you some more info about the INTP I have concerning their auxilary Ne function which may answer this. I will bold the pertinent parts.

INTP - Auxiliary: Extroverted iNtuition (Ne)
Unfortunately, the INTP's primary interests and skill sets are often esoteric at best, frequently not
lending themselves to much use in terms of connection and interaction with other human beings. While
the INTP may spend tremendous time and effort developing incredibly thorough understanding of
numerous multi-faceted concepts and ideas, he may find himself woefully unable to articulate their
meaning or significance to others without some method by which to connect abstract concepts to that
which his fellow man already understands.

When developed well, Ne will bestow the INTP with a number of positive balancing characteristics,
ranging from awareness of and desire to play to the expectations and interests of her audience to cross-
contextual perception of conceptual similarity and an accompanying (and somewhat unexpected)
ability to teach these concepts to others who lack understanding. For many INTPs, this becomes one of
the most valuable and far-reaching gifts that Ne has to offer--she may find, much to her surprise, that
her natural talent for noting structural similarities between the seemingly unrelated allows her to
rephrase the most abstruse hierarchies of ideas into surprisingly understandable unifying explanations
with which her audience can readily identify. This ability marks one of the more substantial and notable
differences between INTPs and INTJs: while Ni intuitively grasps conceptual symbolism quite readily,
the INTJ's comparative inability (or simple disinterest in trying) to "translate" such abstractions results
in a peculiar communicative disconnect which INTPs are frequently much more able to mitigate
through Ne.

Perhaps most importantly of all, Ne grants the INTP not only a broader understanding of the vast
interconnectedness of his various intellectual pursuits, but a sense of playful creativity and an excited
enthusiasm for new possibilities for the future. When Ne is developed poorly, and the INTP is left with
TiSi, his ever-looming sense of self-doubt and imminent awareness of the incompleteness of his own
understanding may lead to extreme social isolation and dejected burnout from repeated failures at
attempts to navigate the confusing and illogical world of external interaction. Ne encourages the INTP
to remember that, no matter what the failures and inadequacies of today have wrought, tomorrow will
be a new day full of new possibilities for different approaches, connections, and changes. If the current
model doesn't feel consistent, we can always adjust it, rework it, or tweak its variables and turn it into
something else tomorrow. The possibilities are endless--they're already out there, waiting to be found,
and it's up to us to rearrange the pieces until we find them.

Ne, ideally, should serve to balance out Ti's insistence on deductive perfection through complete
information by allowing the INTP to "fill in the blanks" and make rougher, more intuitive guesses at
information he may not yet possess or fully understand. As Ti would prefer to work with If/Then
statements which provide unifying explanations of wide ranges of theoretically absolute data, the
failure to consult Ne may often result in an uncomfortable unwillingness to take action or make any
attempt at something until the INTP feels he has complete enough information to solve for the entire
causality of the system in his mind. Properly developed Ne leads the INTP to accept the reality that life
is full of uncertainties, and that if we refuse to act without knowing all the variables, we never really
learn or progress. When he gets stuck at a critical juncture, Ne reminds him to just veer off and try
something different--even if it may not work every time or provide a complete explanation, it might
lead him to just what he needs to see in order to discover the next step in the process. It allows him to
break out of his shell and try new things just in case something unexpected happens, and it's this sort of
vibrant curiosity that combines best with Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge to produce a well-
rounded and psychologically balanced INTP.

 

[Jaidyn]

[MENTION=17702]KatharineML[/MENTION], For completeness, here are the tertiary and inferior functions as they relate to the INTP. You don't have to take it in now, just thought you may want to have it for reference when you go over it later over the weekend when you have some free-time.

INTP - Tertiary: Introverted Sensation (Si)
As a tertiary function, Si can have a variety of balancing effects on the INTP's total cognition. It tends
to work best when Ne has already been allowed to grow and develop as Ti's natural assistant and
counterpart; however, it's worth noting that, like all tertiary functions, its effects can be potentially
damaging if overused or interpreted out of context.

The most essential purpose of Si is to provide a sense of comfort in familiarity, in the idea that our
internal maps of undifferentiated information work best when we're able to sustain them with a
consistent flow of concrete sensory data, and that we should be wary of people, places, and situations
that the map has not yet charted. For INTPs under the influence of tertiary Si, this can generate a
certain degree of cynicism and potentially even irrational distrust of situations they've experienced
before and associated a negative connotation with. INTPs may develop curious suspicions about the
adverse effects of their surroundings on their physical health; they may select insignificant sensory
details to use as scapegoats for their inability to produce consistent work. ("I'd be churning out fantastic
material here if only these morons could get me some half decent coffee!")

Si's influence, in its infancy, may lead INTPs to avoid new experiences or block out possible new
approaches or changes in methodology that may very well have improved the development of their
ideas or increased the range of options available to them. "I've tried and it didn't work" can become
something of a mantra that allows the INTP to both avoid the uncomfortable nature of leaping into the
unknown with incomplete information, and build more support for the superiority of his personal
convictions and subjective beliefs about the nature of fairness and reason.

Given enough negative reinforcement, as TiSi loop sets in, the INTP may even develop a habit of
avoiding the very situations and mindsets that his personal growth requires most in order to move
forward. Utterly convinced that the deck is stacked unfairly against him, he may devolve into bitter
cynicism about the coldly inconsistent nature of the harsh, stupid, and illogical universe around him.
Sensitive about his failures in the social arena, especially, he may convince himself that the only people
worth interacting with are those who feel "safe" in that they espouse the same kinds of views with
which he is already familiar: locked into a self-serving loop of subjective logic and subjective
reinforcement of the kind of experiential data that supports it, he may simply resign himself to the fate
of being alone and unappreciated, comforting himself with grandiose and romantic ideals of being "the
only one with any real integrity" or "the only one who really cares about The Truth."

The problem with pouring on too much Si too quickly is that it may lead to a tendency to ignore Ne
development. The INTP already has plenty of depth, and plenty of subjective perspective; what she
needs to do first is develop a sense of the objectively observable effects her ideas have on others so that
she can connect their perspectives to her own and learn to communicate the significance of her
convictions meaningfully. Blocking this growth process with more encouragement to indulge in more
of the same familiar experiences will only cause regressive development.

When granted a more balanced and positive role, Si should serve not as a mere excuse to remain
forever entrenched in one's experiential comfort zone, but as a useful counterbalance to Ne's tendency
to fly off the rails and become lost in its own excitement. While Ne teaches the INTP to let herself go
and reach out to embrace the random, Si reins her back in and reminds her that, sometimes, there's a
very good reason we've become familiar with a certain form of experience: it's what's best for us and it
keeps us out of trouble. It reminds us to pay attention when things start to push too far out of our
comfort zone for our own good, and helps us to avoid repeating mistakes that we've already made and
(hopefully) learned from.

Lastly, Si should grant the INTP a sense of real connection to the actual experiences represented by the
theoretical ideas he is constantly mulling over in his head, which will contribute to his slow-developing
ability to concretely identify with where others are coming from. It's one thing to be able to explain to
someone why an idea should work in theory and point out how clearly consistent and logical it is; it's
quite another to be able to honestly say, "Because I've been there and I've tried it for myself, and I
know from experience that it genuinely works." Being able to offer that kind of backup for their
arguments can help INTPs transcend the theoretical basis from which they normally operate, endearing
themselves to others in a way that only real world experience with real world issues can.

INTP - Inferior: Extroverted Feeling (Fe)
At the bottom of the barrel of the INTP's cognitive makeup lies the oft-unconscious and mostly
neglected counterpart to Ti's personalized logic: the collectivized ethics and cultural expectations
represented by inferior Fe. Right out of the gate, INTPs are naturally distrustful of extroverted
judgment: they feel that decision-making is something that rightfully belongs to them and them alone,
and that the idea of letting other people's expectations taint the depth and purity of their primary focus--
for such questionable purposes as making people get along, no less--is, at least consciously, seen as a
disturbing affront to their right to individualism and free thought.

"Why should I be expected to get along with anyone whose beliefs clearly represent incorrect logic and
poor reasoning? It's not my fault people are too stupid to realize their beliefs are ridiculous!" Earlier in
life, dominant Ti may have an exceptionally difficult time even understanding why getting along with
others is desirable in the first place. If those people can't be trusted to make rational decisions
according to the indisputable reality of The Truth, it can't see any value in associating with them at all.
The way angry, adolescent INTPs develop social circles around this common belief represents one of
the great ironies of the Jungian world.

Insistent that emotion is, by nature, a fundamentally invalid form of reasoning, INTPs may actually
become emotionally attached to the idea that their decision-making is unemotional and therefore
perfectly rational and "objectively superior" to other competing value systems. By asserting that Ti's
subjective logic represents absolute or objective truth, they conveniently avoid both having to confront
their own emotional needs and having to accept that their preferred method of reasoning does not
represent absolute dogmatic truth. They will continue to cite "facts" and "scientific evidence" based on
their own subjective sense of truth, using Ti's own axioms as proof of its ultimate correctness, never
realizing the ultimately circular nature of their own declarations of self-superiority. When they meet
other INTPs who feel the same way they do, the fact that someone else identifies both feeds Ti's
conscious desire to be The Most Correct and Fe's subconscious desire to share a collectively derived
ethical viewpoint with a larger group.

Try as they might to deny it, beneath the surface of the unconscious, inferior Fe (aided by auxiliary Ne)
does drive INTPs to seek social acceptance and emotional connection; however, they often find
themselves so hopelessly clueless at understanding and adjusting to social cues that they quickly
develop intensely negative associations with the whole process of attempting to share themselves with
others, content to interact only with those whose beliefs are consistent with their own, and thus non-
threatening. In this way, INTPs may actually act out inferior Fe by seeking out like-minded friends and
acquaintances who dislike the idea of having Fe standards forced on them, thus forming Fe-oriented
bonds based, ironically, around the idea of disliking the very social expectations that end up creating
the common ground on which they identify. "Don't conform to society--be a nonconformist like us!"
By attacking the systems of collective ethical expectations they so despise on a conscious level, they
fulfill their own subconscious needs for cultural and familial camaraderie by replacing "I'm right" with
"We're right"--but good luck to any member of that group who disagrees with the precepts of
correctness by which it defines its membership!

Eventually, once Ne and Si have fallen into their rightful places and developed properly, inferior Fe
should grant the INTP the much-needed realization that sometimes family and friends should come
before theoretical correctness. Even if it's wrong or illogical or unfounded in science, if he wants to
keep friends and family around, or hold a consistent job, or participate in social situations with any
degree of discernible success, he must develop a desire to adjust to their emotional and ethical needs
and preferences, even if he cannot see an imminently "logical" reason to agree with them.

This duality of thought ("I think it's illogical" + "I can still see the value in it and respect it as an
equally valid form of reasoning") is something that takes many INTPs a long time and a lot of soul-
searching to grow into. It requires, above all, the realization that even if absolute truth exists, it's not
really possible or logically plausible to believe any single human being can access or understand it
directly--the addition of competent Fe into his cognitive hierarchy will allow the INTP to admit that
yes, even he is subject to emotional bias, and even he has practical reasons to adjust his ethical outlook
according to the feelings and needs of those he holds dear.

Once the INTP is able to simultaneously value the idea of truth and admit to himself that his own
opinion cannot constitute the entirety of it, he will begin to realize that balancing his personal
convictions against collective moral evaluations can actually move him even closer to the transcendent
vision of universal truth and integrity around which his entire life is centered--and who knows? He may
even develop some deeply meaningful personal connections along the way!

 

[KatharineML]

" ... the Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge!"
Yup, this is me
Jaidyn, you have been very helpful - thanks!! I did relate to your friend, though maybe not so extreme but certainly in general that is me. I never really saw myself in that light, but I realise that is EXACTLY what is going on. I always wondered why I got tongue tied at certain points when I tried to communicate my carefully thought out ideas with certain people, but now I realise I just need to open up my Ne and it's okay, I'll be able to figure it out how it all fits later when I'm on my own (instead of panicking and withdrawing and feeling upset etc.)
Yay!
I shall read carefully through all this info you've sent as soon as I can, and you might hear more from me (hope it's not boring!

 

[Jaidyn]

" ... the Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge!"
Yup, this is me
Jaidyn, you have been very helpful - thanks!! I did relate to your friend, though maybe not so extreme but certainly in general that is me. I never really saw myself in that light, but I realise that is EXACTLY what is going on. I always wondered why I got tongue tied at certain points when I tried to communicate my carefully thought out ideas with certain people, but now I realise I just need to open up my Ne and it's okay, I'll be able to figure it out how it all fits later when I'm on my own (instead of panicking and withdrawing and feeling upset etc.)
Yay!
I shall read carefully through all this info you've sent as soon as I can, and you might hear more from me (hope it's not boring!

I look forward to hearing from you, and don't worry. I don't get bored easily. I find value and fun in allot of things others don't. I am very glad I could help, but the others here in the thread really know far more than I. If it wasn't for them REALLY helping you eliminate some possibilities, I wouldn't have been as confident in what I could offer.

Take care and I hope to squeak at ya later.