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Thread: PUZZLE ME OUT!!

  1. #31
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Thanks again Jaidyn That is really helpful. I am definitely an Ne, Si user, based on these definitions! If Ne is this: "Ne is picking up a
    lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them" then that's definitely me. I also do like old photo's and old things, like Si - I find it very grounding and connecting to go through old photo's and relive memories and I've heard that it is common to use the Tertiary function in play or relaxation, so that would make sense if I am INTp.

    One thing all this assessing has done is make me very clear that I am NOT infp, which is what others have often thought me to be. Fi is not all that strong in me at all.

    So, what do you think? Have you got a vibe from me?

    The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think? I would need to check out if I am using Fe or Ti as my primary function ... Jaidyn, maybe you have something you can cut and paste for me on that?

  2. #32
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    Thanks again Jaidyn That is really helpful. I am definitely an Ne, Si user, based on these definitions! If Ne is this: "Ne is picking up a
    lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them" then that's definitely me. I also do like old photo's and old things, like Si - I find it very grounding and connecting to go through old photo's and relive memories and I've heard that it is common to use the Tertiary function in play or relaxation, so that would make sense if I am INTp.

    One thing all this assessing has done is make me very clear that I am NOT infp, which is what others have often thought me to be. Fi is not all that strong in me at all.

    So, what do you think? Have you got a vibe from me?

    The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think? I would need to check out if I am using Fe or Ti as my primary function ... Jaidyn, maybe you have something you can cut and paste for me on that?
    Not a problem at all. :-) I enjoy being able to help if possible. As far as a vibe I am getting from you, I almost want to say INTP but that is due to your comment about not wanting to bore us. That sounded just like my bf who is also an INTP and says things like that all the time. However that is not something I would take too seriously. More than anything, that comment from you made me smile.

    As for more of my copy/paste info, I have plenty more. Regarding INTP and ENFJ dominant functions:
    INTP - Dominant: Introverted Thinking (Ti)
    "I guess more than anything I just want things to make sense. I frequently feel like most people around
    me make decisions based on totally irrational criteria and it's hard to see how they can miss the basic
    building blocks of common sense logical reasoning and decision-making. I like to work with systems,
    especially theoretical systems of ideas that represent concepts that interest me--the more complex and
    interrelated, the better. There's something aesthetically appealing about designing and reworking
    systems; creating symmetry that suggests a sense of total systemic completeness is something that
    brings me a lot of enjoyment. It's really important that things remain fair and consistent--if I don't feel
    I'm being treated fairly or reasonably, I will speak up and explain in detail exactly what's wrong with
    the flawed reasoning that's being used against me. I go to great pains to maximize clarity and
    conceptual precision when I'm dealing with others, and I expect them to do the same. If I can't establish
    a clear definition of an idea, then how can I connect it meaningfully to anything else?"

    INTPs firmly believe that conceptual analysis and evaluation is not for the faint of heart. What they're
    after is no less than absolute correctness, definitional precision, and universal truth. Almost quixotic in
    this idealistic search to grasp the nature of everything, INTPs believe everything can ultimately be
    defined, categorized, and succinctly systematized into a single unified conceptual picture--even if that
    degree of completeness is not something humankind can ever expect to achieve.

    Unlike INTJs, who resist strict conceptual definition until empirical evidence renders it indisputable,
    INTPs must categorize and define their ideas into clearly distinct blocks before they can even begin a
    discourse or exchange of information. Dominant Ti creates such a keen awareness of definitional
    specificity that INTPs often garner a reputation for nitpicking that borders on neurotic and may drive
    other types up the wall. (After all, you can't spell "nitpick" without "INTP".) And while they may
    sometimes abuse this ability in order to play games with others or establish their own intellectual
    superiority, more often than not, they simply recognize definitional differences to a much finer degree
    of detail than most other types are even capable of discerning. Until we know precisely what our words
    denote and connote, we can't even make any meaningful differentiations--which are, of course, the
    foundation for everything.

    INTPs most often find work in areas where they can apply their sense of internal structural identity to
    complex systems of ideas where they can broaden the scope of a problem and discover a new area in
    which to work out all of the intricate relationships that make up the defining characteristics and total
    framework thereof. For Ti, practical application is rarely much of a concern; INTPs are in the business
    of idea development for the sake of learning and cerebral expansion. If they can map out an area of
    reality that as of yet lacks definition, INTPs may find a sense of purpose by feeling they've contributed
    to the development or clarification of humankind's understanding, demystifying something previously
    not understood.

    It's hard to overstate the importance of fitting everything in the universe and the entire realm of
    existence into Ti's overarching sense of the total causality of all the relationships, properties, and
    axioms that make up the definition of everything involved in life as we know it. When a new piece of
    information contradicts Ti's previously understood rule set, there is no choice but to retreat into private
    introspection until the inevitable error in reasoning is discovered and the causal chain of deduction
    repaired, checked, and double checked for consistent flow of rhetorical integrity. Each piece of a
    system implies the necessity of other pieces filling counterbalancing but symmetrical roles: with
    enough If/Then statements and explanations of possible conditions and situational exceptions to them,
    literally everything can ultimately be mapped out and explained and shown to adhere to a global sense
    of logical predictability. The universe cannot function any other way. If we're still running into wrong
    conclusions, it's either because we started with bad premises or we haven't created enough subsections
    of systemic explanation yet: either way, the answer always lies in further analysis and reevaluation.

    Like all Ji dominant (IxxP) types, INTPs are, above all, people of principle, and they will defend those
    principles to the death (especially if you try to debate them!) The search for truth outweighs any
    transient cultural values, transcends any perceptual bias or interpretive difference, renders irrelevant
    any lesser or arbitrarily chosen values, and represents the ultimate ideal to which all should feel
    privileged to have even the most fleeting encounter with. It is of vital importance to the INTP to seek
    knowledge purely for the sake of understanding, and to uphold his sense of logical integrity in the
    process. Anything less would be, well, illogical.
    and

    ENFJ - Dominant: Extroverted Feeling (Fe)
    "I think I would say that my most valuable gift is that I understand people. I know what their needs are,
    and I know how they relate to other people's needs, and I'm good at connecting different kinds of
    people in a way that helps them help each other. I think it's really important to know who your friends
    are, and to remember to stay loyal to the people you're close to. I'm a really good listener, and I try my
    best to take people's concerns seriously and respond in a way that I know will make them feel more
    comfortable, more at ease with whatever problem they're having. I'm good at figuring out what people
    think is important, and then fitting in with their expectations and making a positive, lasting impression
    when I interact with them. I like to be seen as confident and capable, but also sympathetic to people's
    feelings and ideas. I don't generally have any problem organizing people and leading them toward a
    common goal--since I can identify so well with most people, I can be pretty persuasive; often I can see
    very easily the middle ground between opposing perspectives, and from there it's just a matter of
    explaining people's differences in a way that makes both parties happy. I really like it when I can make
    a positive difference to someone in a meaningful way--I try to show the world my best side as often as I
    can. More than anything, though, it's important to be there for the people that matter to you--if you can't
    do that, how can you expect anyone else to be there for you?"

    Often mistaken for a variety of other types due to their renowned interpersonal abilities, ENFJs may
    very well be the one type least in need of typological methodology. As type theory itself is intended
    primarily to increase understanding of foreign value systems in order to improve ability to interact
    effectively with others--something healthy ENFJs tend to do so naturally they can scarcely turn it off--
    they may often find themselves so naturally adept at accommodating and outwardly validating the
    values of others that they can appear almost chameleon-like in how their behavior may change from
    one group to the next. As dominant extroverted feelers, ENFJs are champions of the values espoused by
    their communities, and they make concerted efforts to make themselves into living examples of those
    values, both for their own benefit and for that of those around them.

    When discussing Fe dominants, it's important to note that the collectivized moral ideals by which they
    define their identities are not limited to traditional family or community groups. It's a common mistake
    to assume that ENFJs will automatically change their values to fit whatever group happens to
    physically surround them at the moment--and while they may do this when they wish to make a
    particular impression, or when the group immediately surrounding them holds values that don't conflict
    substantially with those they find important, their primary focus in life is aligning themselves with
    groups of other people with whom they can develop a common moral viewpoint and thus establish an
    objective system of ethical expectations by which everyone can be held accountable. Unlike Fi types,
    who develop highly individualized, internal moral compasses, ENFJs may often wonder how they can
    make any meaningful moral decision without knowing how the people they find important (i.e., those
    with whom their relationships create the fabric of their public identities) feel about the issue in
    question. This is not to say ENFJs don't have any moral ideas of their own; they simply conceptualize
    morality as a concept that should be discussed and agreed upon by the groups of people who intend to
    define their relationships to each other through common adherence to them.

    As Fe dominants, ENFJs strive to make themselves into paragons of the ideals and values represented
    by their connections to others. They're generally very aware of the implications of who they choose to
    associate themselves with, and they tend to know just how to say whatever it is that they need to say to
    get others on board with their causes and goals. It's not uncommon to see them championing the causes
    of the weak and downtrodden--in many cases, their rare ability to "translate" between competing value
    systems combines with their natural interpersonal organizational skills to produce an unusually
    powerful, charismatic presence. The skills commonly associated with this mindset may be applied
    toward both positive and very negative ends. While few can unite a crowd under a common goal with
    the ENFJ's unique balance of personal charm and decisive vision, not all of them are above abusing this
    gift for purposes of ousting or defaming an enemy--no one can an appeal to an entire group's collective
    sentiments and convince them to brand someone "an outsider" faster than an ENFJ.

    Another major issue that often arises for both Fe dominant types (ENFJ, ESFJ) is the tendency to spend
    so much time focusing on the feelings and needs of others that one's own emotional necessities may
    become neglected or, worse, completely ignored. Intent on adjusting the way they feel to the way the
    people close to them feel, Fe dominants may run into substantial conflicts of interest when their own
    private assessments of people or situations fly in the face of the cultural and social expectations
    espoused by the people they love and respect. Conflict avoidance and mediation become major points
    of interest--since conflict between members of the same party suggests discord among the values that
    create the bond between the members thereof (which threatens the fabric of cultural connection upon
    which interpersonal groupings are founded), ENFJs view ability to set aside one's own misgivings in
    favor of that which will benefit their associates to be the ultimate sign of selflessness and maturity.

    Manifestations of this outlook may be something of a double-edged sword: while this leads many
    ENFJs to develop their natural talents at conflict resolution and caregiving, it may result in a confusing
    disconnect between what the ENFJ really does want, and that which he is expected to want--that which
    the others to whom he holds obligations desire. Overemphasis on dominant Fe may result in difficulty
    with defining any sort of clear sense of self at all!
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  3. #33
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think?
    Just incase you feel a connection to ENFJ, here is the Ni function as it would typically appear in the ENFJ:
    ENFJ - Auxiliary: Introverted iNtuition (Ni)
    In most cases, ENFJs seem to describe the function of auxiliary Ni in their own cognitive hierarchies as
    providing a sense of direction and/or spiritual connection to something greater than themselves. They
    rarely feel it necessary to define or "box in" this connection in directly explicit terms--doing so would
    violate the spirit of personalized, subjective definitional freedom upon which the Ni attitude thrives--
    but rather, it seems to represent finding that which impresses upon them a sense of global significance
    (especially the recurring theme that "everything happens for a reason"), that there is something much
    more important than ourselves and our immediate needs and everyday struggles going on beneath the
    surface of our outwards selves. I've heard ENFJs describe Ni's role--even those who don't know
    typology and don't realize this is what they're describing--by focusing on the development of their own
    self-awareness, especially in terms of the social and interpersonal situations where they feel most
    comfortable and in control. ENFJs are known for their strong communicative abilities, but only as
    auxiliary Ni develops do they begin to develop total awareness of the inner workings of the effects of
    their own cognitive tendencies on their outlooks and approaches to life.

    For ENFJs, development of auxiliary Ni seems to coincide with a revelatory (and somewhat sudden)
    increase in total perspective. Priorities are rearranged, unhealthy or counterproductive relationships are
    severed or restructured, while new and more fulfilling ones replace them as the ENFJ begins to develop
    an idea of what she wants the long-term implications of her life and actions to signify. "What does it all
    mean?" Life may strike them as a random series of meaningless events that can only be granted value
    and structure through the cultural and moral approval of others they feel close to--and while these sorts
    of personal connections are and always will be the central focus of their lives, the development of Ni
    will create a sense of individual perspective by which the normative values promoted by Fe can be put
    into context and understood more completely, in a way that operates outside the confines of the
    assumptions by which dominant Fe would normally lead the ENFJ to define her entire outlook. In
    short, Ni grants the ENFJ a much-needed self-analytical disposition, an ability to rethink, redefine, and
    (hopefully) improve the boundaries of the obligations by which she creates her relationships to others
    and the outside world. The balanced ENFJ recognizes that even though her cultural values and the
    relationships she builds upon them are the driving forces in her own life, there are many other possible
    value systems and many other ways of interpreting them. To be truly happy and satisfied, she must
    keep an open mind toward new possibilities and potential epistemic viewpoints--or risk becoming lost
    and entrenched in a misguided set of collective values, associating with all the wrong people and not
    even realizing it.

    Earlier in life, ENFJs may find themselves so naturally adept at telling people what they want to hear
    that they become accustomed to auto-piloting through social interaction and emotional support of
    others. Without substantial Ni, they may neglect the deeper implications of the social "scripts" they find
    themselves effortlessly repeating day in and day out. If, on the other hand, Ni is applied in excess, the
    ENFJ may end up isolating himself to a much greater degree than he's truly comfortable with, primarily
    out of fear of being unprepared to deal with interpersonal problems and situations. With every problem
    solved, he will see only further problems with more implications, each requiring tremendous
    investments of time and personal consideration before any real action can be taken. He may find
    himself reading much further into the words and actions of others than practical considerations dictate--
    he may struggle with the fear that no one truly respects him, that everyone is hiding a secret desire to
    force him out of the group dynamic and leave him alone to fend for himself. While the proper dosage
    of Ni provides a balancing effect and a refreshing sense of perspective, excess focus on unstated and
    implied meaning may lead to some degree of paranoia, short-circuiting the interpersonal skills upon
    which the ENFJ builds his self-confidence.
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  4. #34
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    @KatharineML,
    Actually, after going through this thread again, it seems certain based on consensus and your own opinion that you are a Ti, Si and likely Ne user which gives us Ti, Fe, Si, and Ne (not necessarily in that order). Also since you have not completely elliminated Extroversion from your options, that gives us four types. INTP, ENTP, ESFJ, and ISFJ.

    You decided that it is most certain that you are not an "S" type which leaves only INTP and ENTP as options. However based on things you have said earlier on in the thread, the extroversion of the ENTP just doesn't seem to match you. I am almost certain that (as most everyone else has concluded) you are an INTP.

    Mind you I am extrememly new to typology and have been having my own issues typing myself as you well know... although I am almost certain in being ENFJ. So please keep in mind how new I am to this. However based on helping my family verify their type and from much research I have done on this... the best way to determine type is just to go through the functions defintions. Once you decide Ti/Te and Si/Se based on what you feel are good definitions of the functions, you can pretty reliably find your type.

    Of course there are many who don't like using functions and think the dichotomies of I/E, N/S, F/T, and J/P are the only way to go. Personally I disagree, but c'est la vie.

    If you have any other questions, if as a noob to this I can help in any way, I would be happy to. But I do not pretend to be an expert and I am sure many, MANY others here are better at this than I.
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  5. #35
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Thanks again Jaidyn This stuff is really interesting, though I confess, I am not able to give it enough of a thorough reading right now, I'll have to go over it again at the weekend. It's still confusing to me though - when I read the first two INTP and ENFJ descriptions, I thought I related to them both!! But then, when I read the description of auxiliary use of Ni (ENFJ), I didn't relate at all - especially to this sentence "Earlier in life, ENFJs may find themselves so naturally adept at telling people what they want to hear that they become accustomed to auto-piloting through social interaction and emotional support of others." I am way more on the side of arguing for my principles, than saying what people want to hear ("INTPs are, above all, people of principle, and they will defend those principles to the death (especially if you try to debate them!) The search for truth outweighs any transient cultural values, transcends any perceptual bias or interpretive difference, renders irrelevant any lesser or arbitrarily chosen values, and represents the ultimate ideal to which all should feel privileged to have even the most fleeting encounter with"). So I revisited the first ENFJ description and realised that it is not me at all, though I think it might be who I TRY to be in some ways? Or who I think I should be, maybe? Yet really, I want to educate people far more than I want to listen to people (ouch), and I HATE the middle ground I am a truth seeker and don't much like compromise, for any reason, though I DO value compassion, humility, curiosity and open-ness to new things.

    Another thing - I DEFINITELY worry about boring people

    One prob with INTP though - I tend not to argue up front about principles, though I can explain them eloquently to a willing audience. And I am not so sure I would do well in a proper verbal logical debate. I write instead. People often value me for what they call my 'common sense' and seem to enjoy listening to my opinions and explanations, and I am always excited when someone actually wants to hear what I've got to say, but if someone is antagonistic towards me, I tend to shrink back and lose my ability to speak logically, clearly, confidently. Is this likely for an INTP? The descriptions above make them sound super confident in their ideas and ability to express them when challenged?

  6. #36
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    Thanks again Jaidyn This stuff is really interesting, though I confess, I am not able to give it enough of a thorough reading right now, I'll have to go over it again at the weekend. It's still confusing to me though - when I read the first two INTP and ENFJ descriptions, I thought I related to them both!! But then, when I read the description of auxiliary use of Ni (ENFJ), I didn't relate at all - especially to this sentence "Earlier in life, ENFJs may find themselves so naturally adept at telling people what they want to hear that they become accustomed to auto-piloting through social interaction and emotional support of others." I am way more on the side of arguing for my principles, than saying what people want to hear ("INTPs are, above all, people of principle, and they will defend those principles to the death (especially if you try to debate them!) The search for truth outweighs any transient cultural values, transcends any perceptual bias or interpretive difference, renders irrelevant any lesser or arbitrarily chosen values, and represents the ultimate ideal to which all should feel privileged to have even the most fleeting encounter with"). So I revisited the first ENFJ description and realised that it is not me at all, though I think it might be who I TRY to be in some ways? Or who I think I should be, maybe? Yet really, I want to educate people far more than I want to listen to people (ouch), and I HATE the middle ground I am a truth seeker and don't much like compromise, for any reason, though I DO value compassion, humility, curiosity and open-ness to new things.

    Another thing - I DEFINITELY worry about boring people

    One prob with INTP though - I tend not to argue up front about principles, though I can explain them eloquently to a willing audience. And I am not so sure I would do well in a proper verbal logical debate. I write instead. People often value me for what they call my 'common sense' and seem to enjoy listening to my opinions and explanations, and I am always excited when someone actually wants to hear what I've got to say, but if someone is antagonistic towards me, I tend to shrink back and lose my ability to speak logically, clearly, confidently. Is this likely for an INTP? The descriptions above make them sound super confident in their ideas and ability to express them when challenged?
    Hiya @KatharineML! :-D

    Yeah, honestly the stuff I bolded above is EXACTLY like my INTP bf. He is a very honest person and always has a ton of new things he is getting into. He loves to write short-stories for role-playing games, haikus, he studies philosophy and history. But the moment anyone is antagonistic towards him, he shrinks back like you said. Like a turtle hiding into his shell. He freezes up and sometimes just has to hang-up the phone or just go lay down in bed and just stare-off into nothingness. Mind you he has some other emotional issues that don't help matters much, but otherwise you sound exactly like him.
    And it isn't that he argues about principle as such as he argues things that go for or against his "ideals". For instance, he loves devising philosophical or psychological models of how things work. One good example is that a few years ago, he had a strong belief in how the "soul" is constructed, the various parts of it, where it originates and such. He believed at one point that it was composed of at least 6 parts or so. Apparently his view reflected an ancient hawaiian view or something. Anyhow, as he and I discussed it back then, he realized there were things he hadn't considered about his theory which he put so much time into. There arose conflicts and such that he really was not happy about in the slightest. He attempted to discuss these with me, we got into some religio/philosophical debates about it and he would realize that his particular ideas just couldn't hold up in the particular way he wanted. He had a hard time coming to terms with it and would become depressed. Now I am not sure depression in such a case is normal in the way he did but it isn't something I would be surprised about. If you recall the Dominant Ti description for INTP:
    Almost quixotic in this idealistic search to grasp the nature of everything, INTPs believe everything can ultimately be defined, categorized, and succinctly systematized into a single unified conceptual picture--even if that
    degree of completeness is not something humankind can ever expect to achieve
    ...
    It's hard to overstate the importance of fitting everything in the universe and the entire realm of
    existence into Ti's overarching sense of the total causality of all the relationships, properties, and
    axioms that make up the definition of everything involved in life as we know it. When a new piece of
    information contradicts Ti's previously understood rule set, there is no choice but to retreat into private
    introspection until the inevitable error in reasoning is discovered and the causal chain of deduction
    repaired, checked, and double checked for consistent flow of rhetorical integrity
    . Each piece of a
    system implies the necessity of other pieces filling counterbalancing but symmetrical roles: with
    enough If/Then statements and explanations of possible conditions and situational exceptions to them,
    literally everything can ultimately be mapped out and explained and shown to adhere to a global sense
    of logical predictability. The universe cannot function any other way. If we're still running into wrong
    conclusions, it's either because we started with bad premises or we haven't created enough subsections
    of systemic explanation yet: either way, the answer always lies in further analysis and reevaluation
    .
    The quote above pretty much reflects exactly what I am talking about with my bf. I mean he could be talking about the makeup of the soul, which religion is the "correct" one, the nature of "time", these kind of things. Or we could just talking about his simple aesthetic tastes in mundane things like how he HATES the game Minecraft because it isn't "beautiful" but loves the game World of Warcraft because it is pleasing to the eye. In that same Ti quote, one of the lines that sums him up perfectly is
    Dominant Ti creates such a keen awareness of definitional
    specificity that INTPs often garner a reputation for nitpicking that borders on neurotic and may drive
    other types up the wall. (After all, you can't spell "nitpick" without "INTP".)
    Yeah... this is totally him. And I am certain he is an INTP. Even if you aren't EXACTLY like this, no one person is EXACTLY like the type or function descriptions. Or maybe they are but they do things to a different degree or manifestation. From the little you have shared about yourself I would still say you are likely an INTP. I have no doubt. Maybe the experts here may disagree with me, but I doubt many will as this has pretty much been more and more accepted by a few here as your likely type. Hopefully this helps and if you like, I can provide you with the auxilary, tertiary and inferior function descriptions for the INTP in particular that I have if you like.

    I am glad this has been a help to you and that you come to a good understanding about yourself and your type. :-)
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    The descriptions above make them sound super confident in their ideas and ability to express them when challenged?
    I am actually going to give you some more info about the INTP I have concerning their auxilary Ne function which may answer this. I will bold the pertinent parts.
    INTP - Auxiliary: Extroverted iNtuition (Ne)
    Unfortunately, the INTP's primary interests and skill sets are often esoteric at best, frequently not
    lending themselves to much use in terms of connection and interaction with other human beings. While
    the INTP may spend tremendous time and effort developing incredibly thorough understanding of
    numerous multi-faceted concepts and ideas, he may find himself woefully unable to articulate their
    meaning or significance to others without some method by which to connect abstract concepts to that
    which his fellow man already understands.


    When developed well, Ne will bestow the INTP with a number of positive balancing characteristics,
    ranging from awareness of and desire to play to the expectations and interests of her audience to cross-
    contextual perception of conceptual similarity and an accompanying (and somewhat unexpected)
    ability to teach these concepts to others who lack understanding. For many INTPs, this becomes one of
    the most valuable and far-reaching gifts that Ne has to offer--she may find, much to her surprise, that
    her natural talent for noting structural similarities between the seemingly unrelated allows her to
    rephrase the most abstruse hierarchies of ideas into surprisingly understandable unifying explanations
    with which her audience can readily identify. This ability marks one of the more substantial and notable
    differences between INTPs and INTJs: while Ni intuitively grasps conceptual symbolism quite readily,
    the INTJ's comparative inability (or simple disinterest in trying) to "translate" such abstractions results
    in a peculiar communicative disconnect which INTPs are frequently much more able to mitigate
    through Ne.

    Perhaps most importantly of all, Ne grants the INTP not only a broader understanding of the vast
    interconnectedness of his various intellectual pursuits, but a sense of playful creativity and an excited
    enthusiasm for new possibilities for the future. When Ne is developed poorly, and the INTP is left with
    TiSi, his ever-looming sense of self-doubt and imminent awareness of the incompleteness of his own
    understanding may lead to extreme social isolation and dejected burnout from repeated failures at
    attempts to navigate the confusing and illogical world of external interaction. Ne encourages the INTP
    to remember that, no matter what the failures and inadequacies of today have wrought, tomorrow will
    be a new day full of new possibilities for different approaches, connections, and changes. If the current
    model doesn't feel consistent, we can always adjust it, rework it, or tweak its variables and turn it into
    something else tomorrow. The possibilities are endless--they're already out there, waiting to be found,
    and it's up to us to rearrange the pieces until we find them.


    Ne, ideally, should serve to balance out Ti's insistence on deductive perfection through complete
    information by allowing the INTP to "fill in the blanks" and make rougher, more intuitive guesses at
    information he may not yet possess or fully understand. As Ti would prefer to work with If/Then
    statements which provide unifying explanations of wide ranges of theoretically absolute data, the
    failure to consult Ne may often result in an uncomfortable unwillingness to take action or make any
    attempt at something until the INTP feels he has complete enough information to solve for the entire
    causality of the system in his mind
    . Properly developed Ne leads the INTP to accept the reality that life
    is full of uncertainties, and that if we refuse to act without knowing all the variables, we never really
    learn or progress. When he gets stuck at a critical juncture, Ne reminds him to just veer off and try
    something different--even if it may not work every time or provide a complete explanation, it might
    lead him to just what he needs to see in order to discover the next step in the process. It allows him to
    break out of his shell and try new things just in case something unexpected happens, and it's this sort of
    vibrant curiosity that combines best with Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge to produce a well-
    rounded and psychologically balanced INTP.
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  8. #38
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    @KatharineML, For completeness, here are the tertiary and inferior functions as they relate to the INTP. You don't have to take it in now, just thought you may want to have it for reference when you go over it later over the weekend when you have some free-time.

    INTP - Tertiary: Introverted Sensation (Si)
    As a tertiary function, Si can have a variety of balancing effects on the INTP's total cognition. It tends
    to work best when Ne has already been allowed to grow and develop as Ti's natural assistant and
    counterpart; however, it's worth noting that, like all tertiary functions, its effects can be potentially
    damaging if overused or interpreted out of context.

    The most essential purpose of Si is to provide a sense of comfort in familiarity, in the idea that our
    internal maps of undifferentiated information work best when we're able to sustain them with a
    consistent flow of concrete sensory data, and that we should be wary of people, places, and situations
    that the map has not yet charted. For INTPs under the influence of tertiary Si, this can generate a
    certain degree of cynicism and potentially even irrational distrust of situations they've experienced
    before and associated a negative connotation with. INTPs may develop curious suspicions about the
    adverse effects of their surroundings on their physical health; they may select insignificant sensory
    details to use as scapegoats for their inability to produce consistent work. ("I'd be churning out fantastic
    material here if only these morons could get me some half decent coffee!")

    Si's influence, in its infancy, may lead INTPs to avoid new experiences or block out possible new
    approaches or changes in methodology that may very well have improved the development of their
    ideas or increased the range of options available to them. "I've tried and it didn't work" can become
    something of a mantra that allows the INTP to both avoid the uncomfortable nature of leaping into the
    unknown with incomplete information, and build more support for the superiority of his personal
    convictions and subjective beliefs about the nature of fairness and reason.

    Given enough negative reinforcement, as TiSi loop sets in, the INTP may even develop a habit of
    avoiding the very situations and mindsets that his personal growth requires most in order to move
    forward. Utterly convinced that the deck is stacked unfairly against him, he may devolve into bitter
    cynicism about the coldly inconsistent nature of the harsh, stupid, and illogical universe around him.
    Sensitive about his failures in the social arena, especially, he may convince himself that the only people
    worth interacting with are those who feel "safe" in that they espouse the same kinds of views with
    which he is already familiar: locked into a self-serving loop of subjective logic and subjective
    reinforcement of the kind of experiential data that supports it, he may simply resign himself to the fate
    of being alone and unappreciated, comforting himself with grandiose and romantic ideals of being "the
    only one with any real integrity" or "the only one who really cares about The Truth."

    The problem with pouring on too much Si too quickly is that it may lead to a tendency to ignore Ne
    development. The INTP already has plenty of depth, and plenty of subjective perspective; what she
    needs to do first is develop a sense of the objectively observable effects her ideas have on others so that
    she can connect their perspectives to her own and learn to communicate the significance of her
    convictions meaningfully. Blocking this growth process with more encouragement to indulge in more
    of the same familiar experiences will only cause regressive development.

    When granted a more balanced and positive role, Si should serve not as a mere excuse to remain
    forever entrenched in one's experiential comfort zone, but as a useful counterbalance to Ne's tendency
    to fly off the rails and become lost in its own excitement. While Ne teaches the INTP to let herself go
    and reach out to embrace the random, Si reins her back in and reminds her that, sometimes, there's a
    very good reason we've become familiar with a certain form of experience: it's what's best for us and it
    keeps us out of trouble. It reminds us to pay attention when things start to push too far out of our
    comfort zone for our own good, and helps us to avoid repeating mistakes that we've already made and
    (hopefully) learned from.

    Lastly, Si should grant the INTP a sense of real connection to the actual experiences represented by the
    theoretical ideas he is constantly mulling over in his head, which will contribute to his slow-developing
    ability to concretely identify with where others are coming from. It's one thing to be able to explain to
    someone why an idea should work in theory and point out how clearly consistent and logical it is; it's
    quite another to be able to honestly say, "Because I've been there and I've tried it for myself, and I
    know from experience that it genuinely works." Being able to offer that kind of backup for their
    arguments can help INTPs transcend the theoretical basis from which they normally operate, endearing
    themselves to others in a way that only real world experience with real world issues can.

    INTP - Inferior: Extroverted Feeling (Fe)
    At the bottom of the barrel of the INTP's cognitive makeup lies the oft-unconscious and mostly
    neglected counterpart to Ti's personalized logic: the collectivized ethics and cultural expectations
    represented by inferior Fe. Right out of the gate, INTPs are naturally distrustful of extroverted
    judgment: they feel that decision-making is something that rightfully belongs to them and them alone,
    and that the idea of letting other people's expectations taint the depth and purity of their primary focus--
    for such questionable purposes as making people get along, no less--is, at least consciously, seen as a
    disturbing affront to their right to individualism and free thought.

    "Why should I be expected to get along with anyone whose beliefs clearly represent incorrect logic and
    poor reasoning? It's not my fault people are too stupid to realize their beliefs are ridiculous!" Earlier in
    life, dominant Ti may have an exceptionally difficult time even understanding why getting along with
    others is desirable in the first place. If those people can't be trusted to make rational decisions
    according to the indisputable reality of The Truth, it can't see any value in associating with them at all.
    The way angry, adolescent INTPs develop social circles around this common belief represents one of
    the great ironies of the Jungian world.

    Insistent that emotion is, by nature, a fundamentally invalid form of reasoning, INTPs may actually
    become emotionally attached to the idea that their decision-making is unemotional and therefore
    perfectly rational and "objectively superior" to other competing value systems. By asserting that Ti's
    subjective logic represents absolute or objective truth, they conveniently avoid both having to confront
    their own emotional needs and having to accept that their preferred method of reasoning does not
    represent absolute dogmatic truth. They will continue to cite "facts" and "scientific evidence" based on
    their own subjective sense of truth, using Ti's own axioms as proof of its ultimate correctness, never
    realizing the ultimately circular nature of their own declarations of self-superiority. When they meet
    other INTPs who feel the same way they do, the fact that someone else identifies both feeds Ti's
    conscious desire to be The Most Correct and Fe's subconscious desire to share a collectively derived
    ethical viewpoint with a larger group.

    Try as they might to deny it, beneath the surface of the unconscious, inferior Fe (aided by auxiliary Ne)
    does drive INTPs to seek social acceptance and emotional connection; however, they often find
    themselves so hopelessly clueless at understanding and adjusting to social cues that they quickly
    develop intensely negative associations with the whole process of attempting to share themselves with
    others, content to interact only with those whose beliefs are consistent with their own, and thus non-
    threatening. In this way, INTPs may actually act out inferior Fe by seeking out like-minded friends and
    acquaintances who dislike the idea of having Fe standards forced on them, thus forming Fe-oriented
    bonds based, ironically, around the idea of disliking the very social expectations that end up creating
    the common ground on which they identify. "Don't conform to society--be a nonconformist like us!"
    By attacking the systems of collective ethical expectations they so despise on a conscious level, they
    fulfill their own subconscious needs for cultural and familial camaraderie by replacing "I'm right" with
    "We're right"--but good luck to any member of that group who disagrees with the precepts of
    correctness by which it defines its membership!

    Eventually, once Ne and Si have fallen into their rightful places and developed properly, inferior Fe
    should grant the INTP the much-needed realization that sometimes family and friends should come
    before theoretical correctness. Even if it's wrong or illogical or unfounded in science, if he wants to
    keep friends and family around, or hold a consistent job, or participate in social situations with any
    degree of discernible success, he must develop a desire to adjust to their emotional and ethical needs
    and preferences, even if he cannot see an imminently "logical" reason to agree with them.

    This duality of thought ("I think it's illogical" + "I can still see the value in it and respect it as an
    equally valid form of reasoning") is something that takes many INTPs a long time and a lot of soul-
    searching to grow into. It requires, above all, the realization that even if absolute truth exists, it's not
    really possible or logically plausible to believe any single human being can access or understand it
    directly--the addition of competent Fe into his cognitive hierarchy will allow the INTP to admit that
    yes, even he is subject to emotional bias, and even he has practical reasons to adjust his ethical outlook
    according to the feelings and needs of those he holds dear.

    Once the INTP is able to simultaneously value the idea of truth and admit to himself that his own
    opinion cannot constitute the entirety of it, he will begin to realize that balancing his personal
    convictions against collective moral evaluations can actually move him even closer to the transcendent
    vision of universal truth and integrity around which his entire life is centered--and who knows? He may
    even develop some deeply meaningful personal connections along the way!
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  9. #39
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    " ... the Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge!"
    Yup, this is me
    Jaidyn, you have been very helpful - thanks!! I did relate to your friend, though maybe not so extreme but certainly in general that is me. I never really saw myself in that light, but I realise that is EXACTLY what is going on. I always wondered why I got tongue tied at certain points when I tried to communicate my carefully thought out ideas with certain people, but now I realise I just need to open up my Ne and it's okay, I'll be able to figure it out how it all fits later when I'm on my own (instead of panicking and withdrawing and feeling upset etc.)
    Yay!
    I shall read carefully through all this info you've sent as soon as I can, and you might hear more from me (hope it's not boring!

  10. #40
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    " ... the Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge!"
    Yup, this is me
    Jaidyn, you have been very helpful - thanks!! I did relate to your friend, though maybe not so extreme but certainly in general that is me. I never really saw myself in that light, but I realise that is EXACTLY what is going on. I always wondered why I got tongue tied at certain points when I tried to communicate my carefully thought out ideas with certain people, but now I realise I just need to open up my Ne and it's okay, I'll be able to figure it out how it all fits later when I'm on my own (instead of panicking and withdrawing and feeling upset etc.)
    Yay!
    I shall read carefully through all this info you've sent as soon as I can, and you might hear more from me (hope it's not boring!
    I look forward to hearing from you, and don't worry. I don't get bored easily. I find value and fun in allot of things others don't. I am very glad I could help, but the others here in the thread really know far more than I. If it wasn't for them REALLY helping you eliminate some possibilities, I wouldn't have been as confident in what I could offer.

    Take care and I hope to squeak at ya later.
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

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