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Thread: PUZZLE ME OUT!!

  1. #21
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Hmm. I am understanding all this a lot more now, which is great. I really don't think I am an INFP actually. I am absent minded like them and may seem like them a bit, possibly due to developing Fe, as you say, but I am not scared of people enough, if you know what I mean. Not personally sensitive. I am sensitive toward others, but not particularly toward myself.

    INFJ I have considered before also - this is a possibility but I do use Ti a lot, and didn't particularly relate with the use of Ni descriptions on that cognitive processes test.

    In terms of Feeling vs Thinking. I don't like to hurt people - who does! - and I don't like emotional conflict, but I love a good rational debate. It is very hard to tell, with me, so I'm sure I'm on the cusp.

    Ni or Ne - gosh ... who knows? When I said adventure, I meant, I like the feeling associated with strangeness or newness, not necessarily actually DOING anything people would consider adventurous (like adventure sports etc.) That's Ne, right? Not Se, I don't think. Or is it Ni, I'm very confused about that function!

    Regarding Evie - someone on this site also thought she could be intp. But also, she is a caricature, which would make her more ditsy than anyone is in real life. I think the thing my kids think is like me, is the information giving aspect, and the absent minded funnyness (not funny sense of humour, funny to laugh AT!)

    Regarding interaction styles - I have had to 'chart the course' for years, being a mother - you have to get people to places on time a lot! I tend to rely on routines for this, and have had to behave like a seargant major, though it is a great relief when I don't have to do this. Nevertheless, our children were late to school almost every day - I blamed this on the amount of children I had to get organised, but now I think about it, it's just because I found it hard to be utterly definite and controlling. I am firm, though, on things that matter, but it's complicated often ...

    Maybe I am just confusing everyone now - I'm certainly confusing myself!

    To clarify ... I certainly use Ti which could make me an INTP or an INFJ (developed tertiary).

    I also probably use Fe as a pose to Fi, which could, again, make me an INTP (developed fourth function) or INFJ (second function)

    I am almost definitely an N, but as to whether it's Ni or Ne, I still need clarification.

    I am probably an introvert, but not a massive one.

    BUm, gotta go now and get back to work - thanks for all your help!

  2. #22
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    I admit I am not sure of the concensus view of these definitions of Ne vs Ni, but I have been using them and so far I have grown to understand functions much better with them. Mind you, these are NOT definitions by Jung, but I have found them quite good. Perhaps they will help you decide among them. And remeber, if you are certain of Ti, you certainly also have Fe. If you have Ne, you certainly have Si. If Ni, then Se. Although personally I "think" it would be easier determining Se vs Si. But that is just me.

    Ne, or extroverted iNtuition, is dominant for ENxP, secondary for INxP, tertiary for ESxJ and
    inferior for ISxJ. It is an outwardly exploratory attitude that encourages us to change, reinvent and
    experiment with the external world in order to find new and interesting combinations and patterns.
    Ne looks for novel outcomes and imagines how the things around you could be changed into other,
    more interesting things. Ne sees new information as part of a larger, emerging, as of yet unseen
    pattern that extends far beyond the self, and whose meaning will continue to change as the context
    grows and we discover more of the all-encompassing pattern. Rather than directly confront an issue,
    Ne will often broaden the context until the issue seems insignificant by comparison to the much
    bigger and more expansive ideas it imagines.

    As with all extroverted functions, Ne needs to be validated by external/objective information to have
    meaning. So Ne users will often have many ideas very quickly but not know if they're good until they
    hear other people's reactions to them, or have a chance to experiment and see what happens. Ne
    wants very badly to be understood and appreciated by others. Note that Ne songwriters (e.g.
    Brandon Boyd, ENFP) will typically write enough context clues and such into their work that you can
    put the pieces together and infer what they were thinking when they wrote it. They want others to
    put the pieces together and get it.
    and
    Ni, or introverted iNtuition, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior
    for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we
    could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the
    subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles. Rather than
    directly confront an issue, Ni will often solve problems by simply looking at them from a different
    angle. Doing a bunch of community service sucks? Just think of it as an opportunity to get lots of
    exercise! Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only
    thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. Ni leads you to try and see
    "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people
    are not perceptive enough to pick up on...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories,
    a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.

    Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most
    people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than
    everyone else. They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they
    cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work
    around the attitudes of others.

    As with all introverted functions, Ni doesn't pay attention to external conditions outside the self so it
    doesn't care if anyone else grasps the ideas the same way the Ni user does. To Ni, I get the
    significance and that's all that matters. Ni songwriters (e.g. Thom Yorke, INFJ) will often write lyrics
    that could not possibly make any sense to other people without a direct explanation from the writer,
    but they don't really care because Ni considers intuition such a personal thing that it can't make its
    perspective/ideas clear to others very easily at all, and frequently doesn't even bother trying.

    For another example, Isaac Newton (INTJ) invented calculus and didn't bother telling anyone about it
    for 20 years. Ne would have been out showing the idea to others and changing it based on their
    reactions--but not Ni!

    As a result Ne is typically much better at putting its abstract ideas into terms that others will
    understand than Ni.

    On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same
    way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.)
    Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects
    to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid
    definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its
    understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible.
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  3. #23
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post

    NTs are known to analyse something and break it down to its core elements. Is this description the sort of thing your thesis/book would be like?
    I didn't answer this question yet so I will now. My thesis will be an analysis, critique and clarification of the various streams of thought and their influence on what we believe about femininity and womanhood - and thus our identity, expectations and experience as women, with an attempt at creating a 'new' definition. My book will be more practical - aimed at revealing the false information abounding in this arena, and helping women find their way in the quagmire of different ideas about who they should and shouldn't be and what they should and shouldn't do. To find themselves again. To know their power and how to use it well. It will be an educational book and, hopefully, an illuminating book that will bring relief and some solid ground to go from in the everyday decisions we must all make.

    Another thing I wanted to clarify was how I think of adventure: An adventure for me is not necessarily what others would call an adventure - it is often just a new thought which colours and clarifies everything differently and gives me a whole new mental landscape to explore and understand.

    I hope someone is going to be getting the gist of me soon - I can give you endless information about me but I dont' want to bore everyone too much

  4. #24
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    Gosh, I am in a desert and there is a box. It is just an ordinary box. Yet just it's being there is magical ...
    Watch this video then read my commentary below:




    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #25
    Infinite Bubble
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post
    I didn't answer this question yet so I will now. My thesis will be an analysis, critique and clarification of the various streams of thought and their influence on what we believe about femininity and womanhood - and thus our identity, expectations and experience as women, with an attempt at creating a 'new' definition. My book will be more practical - aimed at revealing the false information abounding in this arena, and helping women find their way in the quagmire of different ideas about who they should and shouldn't be and what they should and shouldn't do. To find themselves again. To know their power and how to use it well. It will be an educational book and, hopefully, an illuminating book that will bring relief and some solid ground to go from in the everyday decisions we must all make.
    The bolded is sort of Ni, with the fact you are turning something on its head, looking at it from new angles, so others will see this new perspective. But there isn't enough evidence to suggest that you use Ni rather than Ne. I don't know about the rest; I think any type could do this kind of thing. Although the analysis and critique suggests Ti again.

    Another thing I wanted to clarify was how I think of adventure: An adventure for me is not necessarily what others would call an adventure - it is often just a new thought which colours and clarifies everything differently and gives me a whole new mental landscape to explore and understand.
    I'm not too sure on this- it seems like it could be either Ne or Ni. What do you think of the definitions provided by @Jaidyn?

    You're definitely either INTP or INFJ. I think the former. It shouldn't be too hard to decide between the two now.

    I dont' want to bore everyone too much
    Haha, you won't. You just need to post the information, we'll get there in the end.

  6. #26
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaidyn View Post
    I admit I am not sure of the concensus view of these definitions of Ne vs Ni, but I have been using them and so far I have grown to understand functions much better with them. Mind you, these are NOT definitions by Jung, but I have found them quite good. Perhaps they will help you decide among them. And remeber, if you are certain of Ti, you certainly also have Fe. If you have Ne, you certainly have Si. If Ni, then Se. Although personally I "think" it would be easier determining Se vs Si. But that is just me.


    and
    Thanks Jaidyn, I read these and I think you're right, it would be easier determining between Se and Si I'll look into that ...

    I like definitions though, and I like people to understand what I write or say etc., so maybe Ni is unlikely? Though if combined with Fe it might seek to communicate more effectively? What do you think?

    Since the primary/tertiary function mix looks different, I would need to know; what does Ni look like for an INFJ, and what does Ne look like for an INTP? Anybody got any clear ideas on this?

  7. #27
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaidyn View Post
    I admit I am not sure of the concensus view of these definitions of Ne vs Ni, but I have been using them and so far I have grown to understand functions much better with them. Mind you, these are NOT definitions by Jung, but I have found them quite good. Perhaps they will help you decide among them. And remeber, if you are certain of Ti, you certainly also have Fe. If you have Ne, you certainly have Si. If Ni, then Se. Although personally I "think" it would be easier determining Se vs Si. But that is just me.


    and
    Thanks Jaidyn, I read these and I think you're right, it would be easier determining between Se and Si I'll look into that ...

    I like definitions though, and I like people to understand what I write or say etc., so maybe Ni is unlikely? Though if combined with Fe it might seek to communicate more effectively? What do you think?

    Since the primary/tertiary function mix looks different, I would need to know; what does Ni look like for an INFJ, and what does Ne look like for an INTP? Anybody got any clear ideas on this?

  8. #28
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatharineML View Post

    Since the primary/tertiary function mix looks different, I would need to know; what does Ni look like for an INFJ, and what does Ne look like for an INTP? Anybody got any clear ideas on this?
    From the same source as my Ni/Ne definitions (again, unsure if most people here would agree with these but they are my favorite and very clear to me):
    INFJ - Dominant: Introverted iNtuition (Ni)
    "I just like putting all of life's little dreams in perspective. The real world is inside my head.
    Imagination is the doorway to the world--if you can imagine it, then it exists. The difficulty lies in
    compromising that world enough to get along with the other one. I mean, if you think about it, I have
    no proof that you or anybody else really exists. Is anything really 'true' in the most ultimate sense? Or is
    whatever we think of as 'truth' just another frame of reference, with no more objective value than
    anything else? I try not to take any one definition of reality too seriously, because then I lose the ability
    to give equal consideration to others."

    As introverted perception (Pi) dominants, INFJs are constantly busy with the private inner world of
    subjective association of signs and symbols with personalized meaning. Both Pi functions (Ni and Si)
    are concerned with generating internalized impressions of past experience--in this way they are quite
    similar. But while Si depends on specific and concrete sensory data to build its personal conceptual
    map of meaning, Ni instead depends on more vague and loosely defined skeletons of the intangible and
    abstract relationships between ideas. It can't build a map as thorough and complete as that of an Si type
    who has directly experienced all of the information in a given area, but it can use the conceptual
    outlines of its own experiences to "fill in the blanks" and predict how related experiences that it hasn't
    actually had will feel in terms of the personal impression they create.

    Often, the way a particular piece of information strikes them is simply too dependent upon the
    assumptions inherent in Ni's worldview to make its significance meaningful to anyone else. Putting it
    into words ruins the point because words are yet another limited medium which carries too many
    inherent assumptions to fully carve out an effective vocabulary for the conceptual impressions in which
    Ni specializes.

    As an introverted perception function, dominant Ni is not making any kind of value judgments. It's
    only taking in impressions--as many different possible interpretations of the significance of any given
    idea or event as possible. That may sound similar to Ne on the surface, but it's not--Ne is picking up a
    lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them; Ni is picking
    one idea or event at a time and examining ("from a clean slate", as Yukawa says) every angle of every
    component of that one thing in order to find any as-of-yet untried interpretations that might cause us to
    view the whole issue in an entirely new light.

    While Ne explodes into a million new places from one starting point, Ni is much more comfortable
    "imploding" into an overarching interpretation that combines many different disparate elements into
    one more cohesive whole. Often this results in the keen ability to pare down many different apparently
    disparate options into the best and most effective option for the singular vision that the INFJ's judgment
    functions have decided is the best use of time. This ability often leads others to see INFJs as possessing
    some sort of mystical, almost supernatural foresight; of course, there is nothing supernatural about--Ni
    simply notes the general ideas implied by conceptual impressions, and from there it's not a difficult
    jump to imagine how they might be deconstructed or rearranged for different purposes. Ni dominants
    are often surprised and a little perplexed that others don't naturally see the unstated meaning that
    characterizes their entire self-experience.

    Ni dislikes forcing rationalized structure onto its conceptual impressions because that structure is
    bound to operate under a certain set of assumptions which may prematurely (and without even realizing
    it) eliminate the very kind of information Ni is interested in: using past experiences with related
    conceptual frameworks to eliminate the barriers on its holistic understanding of symbols and the
    meaning they signify.

    Often, INFJs feel that others operate under too many unstated assumptions of meaning to even follow
    the esoteric trains of internal imagination in which they live. All too commonly this results in feelings
    of isolation: the INFJ sees himself as too unorthodox in his very assumptions about the nature of reality
    to fit into the frameworks by which most of the people surrounding him define themselves.
    and
    INTP - Auxiliary: Extroverted iNtuition (Ne)
    "Overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind / Withering my intuition, leaving
    opportunities behind."
    --Tool, "Lateralus" (lyrics by Maynard James Keenan, INTP)

    Unfortunately, the INTP's primary interests and skill sets are often esoteric at best, frequently not
    lending themselves to much use in terms of connection and interaction with other human beings. While
    the INTP may spend tremendous time and effort developing incredibly thorough understanding of
    numerous multi-faceted concepts and ideas, he may find himself woefully unable to articulate their
    meaning or significance to others without some method by which to connect abstract concepts to that
    which his fellow man already understands.

    When developed well, Ne will bestow the INTP with a number of positive balancing characteristics,
    ranging from awareness of and desire to play to the expectations and interests of her audience to cross-
    contextual perception of conceptual similarity and an accompanying (and somewhat unexpected)
    ability to teach these concepts to others who lack understanding. For many INTPs, this becomes one of
    the most valuable and far-reaching gifts that Ne has to offer--she may find, much to her surprise, that
    her natural talent for noting structural similarities between the seemingly unrelated allows her to
    rephrase the most abstruse hierarchies of ideas into surprisingly understandable unifying explanations
    with which her audience can readily identify. This ability marks one of the more substantial and notable
    differences between INTPs and INTJs: while Ni intuitively grasps conceptual symbolism quite readily,
    the INTJ's comparative inability (or simple disinterest in trying) to "translate" such abstractions results
    in a peculiar communicative disconnect which INTPs are frequently much more able to mitigate
    through Ne.

    Perhaps most importantly of all, Ne grants the INTP not only a broader understanding of the vast
    interconnectedness of his various intellectual pursuits, but a sense of playful creativity and an excited
    enthusiasm for new possibilities for the future. When Ne is developed poorly, and the INTP is left with
    TiSi, his ever-looming sense of self-doubt and imminent awareness of the incompleteness of his own
    understanding may lead to extreme social isolation and dejected burnout from repeated failures at
    attempts to navigate the confusing and illogical world of external interaction. Ne encourages the INTP
    to remember that, no matter what the failures and inadequacies of today have wrought, tomorrow will
    be a new day full of new possibilities for different approaches, connections, and changes. If the current
    model doesn't feel consistent, we can always adjust it, rework it, or tweak its variables and turn it into
    something else tomorrow. The possibilities are endless--they're already out there, waiting to be found,
    and it's up to us to rearrange the pieces until we find them.

    Ne, ideally, should serve to balance out Ti's insistence on deductive perfection through complete
    information by allowing the INTP to "fill in the blanks" and make rougher, more intuitive guesses at
    information he may not yet possess or fully understand. As Ti would prefer to work with If/Then
    statements which provide unifying explanations of wide ranges of theoretically absolute data, the
    failure to consult Ne may often result in an uncomfortable unwillingness to take action or make any
    attempt at something until the INTP feels he has complete enough information to solve for the entire
    causality of the system in his mind. Properly developed Ne leads the INTP to accept the reality that life
    is full of uncertainties, and that if we refuse to act without knowing all the variables, we never really
    learn or progress. When he gets stuck at a critical juncture, Ne reminds him to just veer off and try
    something different--even if it may not work every time or provide a complete explanation, it might
    lead him to just what he needs to see in order to discover the next step in the process. It allows him to
    break out of his shell and try new things just in case something unexpected happens, and it's this sort of
    vibrant curiosity that combines best with Ti's tireless thirst for truth and knowledge to produce a well-
    rounded and psychologically balanced INTP.
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  9. #29
    Member Jaidyn's Avatar
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    And just for completeness, I will give the Si/Se definitions I use as well. It may help determine Ni/Ne a bit more.

    Se, or extroverted Sensing, is dominant for ESxP, secondary for ISxP, tertiary for ENxJ and inferior
    for INxJ. It is the attitude that what is directly apparent in our immediate physical surroundings is
    the most important thing to go by. Se leads you to follow your gut instincts, pay very close attention
    to what's going on around you, and respond to things in the moment in whatever way will make the
    strongest and most immediate guttural, sensory impact on others. Se users are so present-focused
    that they're often on the cutting edge of new trends because they place so much emphasis on what
    is current and new. They like to learn things via a hands-on, figure-it-out-by-experimenting-as-you-
    go, direct experiential approach (in this way they are similar to Ne) but they are more focused on
    what is immediately tangible than on what their surroundings might be changed into. They usually
    pay a lot of attention to their physical appearance and are very good with reading body language
    and using it to immediately size up a person or a situation and respond instinctively. They can be
    quite impulsive and prone to overindulgence in sensory pleasures, but they also know how to work a
    crowd and they tend to make themselves into reflections of current popular trends--whatever will
    make an impact.

    Se is the opposite of Ni because it intentionally focuses on the literal surface meaning of exactly
    what is going on right in front of you right now, whereas Ni tries to ignore that and see the hidden
    meaning in what is not directly apparent.
    and

    Si, or introverted Sensing, is dominant for ISxJ, secondary for ESxJ, tertiary for INxP and inferior
    for ENxP. It's related to Se in that it deals with sensory experience, but rather than constantly scan
    for everything about what's going on now, it relies on internalizing those experiences into an
    extremely detailed internal map of highly vivid *memories* of those past sensory experiences. This
    dependence on reliving past experience and using it as a guide for the present leads to an extremely
    good memory for detail, and a general attitude that going with what we know for sure from having
    experienced it before is usually best.

    Si is the opposite of Ne because rather than relate new information to some larger external,
    constantly changing pattern, it tries to relate all new information to something it already knows,
    some sensory data that it's absorbed from its past experiences. This leads to the classic Ne vs. Si
    battle: Ne wants to try something new just for the sake of doing something different and finding
    something interesting; Si wants to stick to what we've done before because its vivid memories of
    direct experience allow us to relate the new information to that past information we've already
    absorbed.

    It's a common misconception that Si users are traditionalists on principle. In my experience, many
    older Si users (xSxJ types have Si as dom/secondary) are traditionalists because the only source of
    information they had was their parents and the traditions they were raised with, but these days
    many younger SJs are much less traditionalist in nature because information is so much more freely
    available than it was just a few generations ago. Si is not into tradition just for the sake of tradition;
    it just likes to relate new information to something it already knows. Rules and traditions can be a
    convenient way to do this, but it's a mistake to believe that Si always leads to traditionalism for its
    own sake.

    Si also does some really cool stuff like perfect pitch...I have one ISFJ friend (Si dominant) who can
    tap into his past sensations of what a particular note sounded like and use it to identify some note
    he hears now as a G#. That's amazing to me...as an Ne dom I only understand notes in terms of
    their relationship to other notes in a larger pattern; Josh just taps right into his detailed sensory
    memory and can identify the note by remembering what it sounded like before, on its own.

    Si doms like to collect objects and facts that evoke pleasurable memories from the past. An Si who's
    into history will collect books, photos, stamps, etc...an Si who's into music will collect instruments,
    sheet music, photos of concerts, and so on. Many Si types love scrapbooking because looking back
    at those old photos evokes those powerful, highly detailed sensory experiences from the past.

    On a more morbid note, Dexter (from the TV series "Dexter") is probably ISTJ. He collects blood
    slides because they evoke the detailed memories of his most enjoyable murder experiences from the
    past. =/
    Again, none of these definitions/descriptions are my own. I simply found them and found them much easier to understand and quite better than many of the others I found online that seem to simply repeat much of the same things without explaining much.
    9w1 sx/so
    ENFP; IEE-Ne

    Discordians are forged in the fires of mental instability and militant-subjectivism.
    Alcohol seems to help too.

  10. #30
    Senior Member KatharineML's Avatar
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    Thanks again Jaidyn That is really helpful. I am definitely an Ne, Si user, based on these definitions! If Ne is this: "Ne is picking up a
    lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them" then that's definitely me. I also do like old photo's and old things, like Si - I find it very grounding and connecting to go through old photo's and relive memories and I've heard that it is common to use the Tertiary function in play or relaxation, so that would make sense if I am INTp.

    One thing all this assessing has done is make me very clear that I am NOT infp, which is what others have often thought me to be. Fi is not all that strong in me at all.

    So, what do you think? Have you got a vibe from me?

    The only other niggling thought is that I could still be ENFJ as I came up on a test once, since Ni would be channeled into Fe which would make it FAR less nebulous and quite different I would think? I would need to check out if I am using Fe or Ti as my primary function ... Jaidyn, maybe you have something you can cut and paste for me on that?

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