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  1. #1
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    Default Could you type me please?

    Could someone type me please? I shall answer as best I can though I am sceptical I can capture myself entirely in these questions.

    Prerequisites

    What age range are you in? I am 25.

    Any disorders or conditions we should know about? I believe myself to suffer from depression, ADD and/or Sluggish Cognitive Tempo and an online test suggested possibilities of other disorders (to varying degrees) including Avoidant PD, Schizotypal PD, Schizoid PD, Histronic PD and Narcissistic PD. Quite the collection, please note the test in question was taken several years ago. I have not been professionally diagnosed for any of the above.

    Main Questions

    1. What do you think your life is about? What drives you in life? This can be something like a goal or a purpose, or anything else that comes to mind. My life has no meaning other than what I make for it and that is whatever I choose. I do however seek to become significant so on my moment of death I can honestly reflect back and determine my life hasn't been a massive waste of time. If I were to die today I would not be able to conclude it as such and my only escape would be apathy to the whole desire in my last moments. That is my goal and unfortunately as I cannot determine my deathbed values (if I have any) it's difficult to decide. As of historical trends I would suggest "something significant or to be significant."

    2. What were you like as a kid? Quite the question. I was told that in pre-school I developed a fascination of "logic puzzles" (whatever that entails) and I recall that I was very sensitive and cried often (there are years between crying incidents now.) I was shy and was a social outcast throughout my school life. One memory I recall is that I was a child (probably no older than 3 or 4) and I stood up on one of the church pews during a hymn. In my mind I remember feeling like I was a "big boy" and perhaps somebody worth looking up to. Of course those sitting behind me only smiled. Now I'm six foot tall and am taller than the majority and am still not a "big boy" or someone worth looking up to. Other than that I shared the same personality theme I do today although I consider the nuances of my personality, critical thinking skills and understanding of situations to have developed.

    3. Describe your relationship with your parents. Does anything stand out about the way you interacted?Not good. I live with them (I would leave but I fear the increased costs of running my own home would eliminate a degree of autonomy and freedom to be inside my own head in the present or future due to increased outgoings and difficulty to save) and I am very much the black sheep. I am looked down upon and have long been perceived as lazy, rude and arrogant (my parents have never had any reservations expressing this) and have never been people I can turn to. I deal with my own issues save for issues that require an immediate practical solution. If I did love them once I do not love them now. They bring out the negative in me and I regularly raise my voice at them in anger and receive a tirade in response. It could make an entertaining evening for a spectator. When I move out I may cut them out of my entirely, I'll have to see how I feel.

    4. What values are important to you? What do you hope to avoid doing or being?Perhaps being insignificant. What I value changes over time, my only consistent value is that what I value is true to myself (basically I set my own standard of authenticity, rules, and code and measure how far any opinions I hold deviate from them.) What I avoid doing or being thus will change too as the standard itself changes its position over time, things I can accept are things I would not have wanted a few years ago. It's always in flux, I do not keep any value beyond its sell-by-date.

    5. Aside from phobias, are there any fears that characterized your childhood? Have they continued into the present day, or not, and if not, how have you dealt with them?Fear that I did not have what it takes to make it through whichever problem presented itself. Did I have the knowledge, the talent and the endurance to come through intact? Did I have what it takes to become who I wanted to be and to maintain truthful to myself? In my adult life I am more confident that I can achieve and make it through (or indulge in apathy) and my concern of not becoming "my ideal self" is accompanied with a conscious realisation that I am getting older and that doors are closing and that alternatives may not be opening in response (first recorded case of this incident with the same level of intensity as today was when I was 19.) Combine that with a sense of shame of failing myself (which has also been consistent throughout my life) and I hope you get the general idea.

    6. a.) How do you see yourself? A work in progress. Perfect in my imperfection. I have a million things to say about myself but none I can express. I am watching carefully to see how I shall turn out in the end. Whether a dusty old relic, cobweb ridden and forsaken by all except time or a fine wine which in its maturity has become its own magnum opus. I am moving through time, my preferred opinion of myself is fluid even if my identity would argue that it is fixed and unchanging.

    b.) How do you want others to see you? A difficult question. A vital component perhaps? An irreplacable and/or pricess cog in the machine? There are many layers to this desire within me and not all I believe can be sufficiently articulated. It's easy to say I want respect but I feel also pride being seen as weird (which usually does not carry much respect from the other person.) I want to be seen as a person of integrity, innovation, intelligence and genius but I don't really want to be a stick-up-the-ass and an insufferable know-it-all. Could I have both? The sweet without the sour?

    c.) What do you dislike the most in other people?Varies. I dislike fakeness even though I do not see it as inherently bad (nothing really is to me) and also I dislike shallowness and lack of vision. Also plain old fashioned stupidity and incompetence. I probably suffer from all the above myself to some capacity so perhaps I only project?

    7. Which habit do you most automatically act on? Rank the following habits from most to least automatic, on a scale of 1 (most) to 3 (least).
    a.) Work for personal gain with more concern for self than for others. 1
    b.) Strive for a sense of tranquility in yourself and the world around you 2
    c.) Decide what is right for the betterment of something or someone else. 3

    8. Where does the wandering mind take you? What provokes this? A million different places for a million different reasons. I like the original thought and idea, I see if I value it and see if it can broaden my understanding or be used for me to determine a pattern and a new theory. This can be for anything including philosophy, science, history, psychology and religion.

    9.What makes you feel your best? What makes you feel your worst?The sense I am unlocking the secrets of the universe through discussion (often on here) is usually phenomenal, a high I don't think I've sufficiently emulated through any other means. Other than that the feeling that I can still make something of my life (and humanity can still achieve what I want it to eventually achieve) usually raises my mood. My worst? Anything which suggests that what I am at the moment (I sometimes compare my existence to the moment before the big bang) is all I am and all I will ever be. This brings notions that my shitty job, shitty life and the tiresome companion - a feeling that I am not intelligent or talented enough to become the significant whichever is the sum of my being. I've never had to truly reconcile with this possibility as I can entertain my mind with optimistic possibilities. Other than that feeling sad for me is not always bad as sometimes feeling sad (even suicidal) can make me feel alive (even if I'm bored with both.)

    10. Let's talk about emotions. Explain what might make you feel the following, how they feel to you or how you react to the emotion:
    a.) anger Usually when things do not go as I wish them to. I may get angry at mine or another's incompetence or a situation where I cannot influence events to achieve a favourable situation. It is usually preceded by a sense of powerlessness which becomes consuming and then the anger boils over. There is a degree of beauty in the moment of anger for me, I rage and feel awesome. I then usually feel like a dick or that I may have burnt my bridges by doing so.

    b.) shame When I feel like I am failing myself or that my personal limitations are causing me to be a pain in the ass or a waste of space to others. These (especially the latter) are more side effects than anything. They have become more sporadic as I have aged and are more likely to occur with situations that carry greater weight. Then like a chain reaction the shame causes shame to be felt for other incidents that occur e.g. where I did C in situation B even though at the time I felt no shame at all. Perhaps its not two seperate shames but one shame covering my entire mind like a white noise which is being superimposed on events which I consciously recall? I need to look into further I think.

    c.) anxiety More nervousness than anything. There is a sense that I do not know nearly enough about the world, am not nearly insightful or informed enough or qualified enough to determine the best way to proceed. Thus I only speculate and gather knowledge with the intent to expand my comfort zone as if it were a bubble. I occasionally however drop my inactivity and attempt to wing it, sometimes coming out good and sometimes not. However I am not always comfortable doing this, I am less likely to be able to when I'm being pressured to pursue a course of action so I need to rely on whatever I've gathered in regards to the subject. If I do not feel I have enough and am not ready I start to feel nervous. It turns me to jelly.

    11. Describe how you respond to the following:
    a.) stress Depends on the situation. I am negatively affected by stress (I often feel the situation pressing down on me) but how I respond will depend on whether I value what is at stake and also whether I think I have enough to get through it all. If I value and can provide a solution stress will become an engine for me to deliver, if I do not value it then I may lapse into apathy but if I do value it yet cannot proceed I may start to sweat and let the stress majorly get to me, making me moody and even angry.

    b.) negative unexpected change Depends on the change. It's the same as the above, if I feel I can adapt I will take it in my stride. If I feel I can't I will brood and even worry over it until either apathy sets in, I see the situation from a new angle bringing it back into my grasp or I just try it anyway and observe the results.

    c.) conflict Depends on the conflict. In many ways its an opportunity to grow. If I feel I can grow from the conflict I will be more accepting of defeat if not I may determine whether I should avoid it entirely. I usually don't go seeking it out unless there is very low risk of negative returns (e.g. Internet, I often troll even if I feel like a dick afterwards.) Even if I win a conflict I wonder whether I was the true winner, I decide to look at my own opinions and views from different angles and may even adopt a few elements from my opponent. Hegelian Dialectics I believe it is called. In any case sensitivity is always an issue on my part.

    12. a.) What kind of role are you naturally inclined to take in a group? Why? Passive/indifferent unless I value the group goal or project or feel I may have a potential solution for whatever is at hand. On extremely rare occasions I can even take the lead. Like always it depends on the situation.

    b.) If put in power, how do you behave? Why? Depends on what its regarding and whether I value what I have been put in power for. If I care about the result enough then I will try and influence whichever party to the goal, which would be my interpretation of whatever my superior would like. I am not beyond becoming a tyrant however, perhaps at my very darkest of absolute power I could be a slave driver.

    c.) Do you tend to struggle with others who have authority over you? Why? Yes, for multiple reasons. I feel they have power over my destiny and the ability to infringe on me in ways they can't realise. A lot of the time I do not feel they are capable of handling their role, I feel they impede and negatively affect me without realising that they are even doing so (many can't seem to grasp that I work best unsupervised) but they stifle the flexibility of creative and out-of-the-box solutions. They are an imperfect authority just following another imperfect authority. The predators need to learn that they are nothing without the prey and that its not always the prey that dies first.

    13. What do you see or notice in others that most people don't? Hard to tell as I am only aware of what I perceive others notice. They have proven in the past to notice more than I give them credit for. But if I must say then I would say unseen potential (though this is often much more for inanimate objects e.g. resources than people) and how I could learn from them.

    14. Comment on your relationship with trust. I do not expect betrayal, loyalty or curve balls of any kind (though I do desire trust with others, if only for potential benefits it can bring.) I am more or less neutral in this regard, although trust and betrayal reward and cost me more respectively emotionally wise in regards to people I am close to. Trust for me lies more in the domain of the self. Do I trust myself enough for this task?

    15. Briefly: What religious and/or political beliefs do you have? Do you think they influenced your responses in this questionnaire? Atheist with a nihilistic/existentialst philosophical outlook. If they influenced anything it was my thought process over the long term which led to the answers I gave.

    Optional Question (due to personal nature)

    Discuss an event that has impacted your life significantly; more importantly, how you responded to it. I would probably say when I failed my A-levels at College back in 2006. I stopped caring (teenage angst and the like) and did extremely poor at the end of the second year. For a time I did not mind but in 2007 I hated my job so much that I started to long for university life which my decisions had deprived me the possibility of. I regretted my failure as I felt I hadn't just shot myself in the foot but effectively cut out my heart (perceived it as the only way to make something of my life.) Feeling lonely and burdened by the prospect that my peers were moving up and left me in the dust, I romanticised the whole "tragedy" to death and it hung over me for years. It was essentially a dark age, before college I passed tests and exams by winging it but I somehow managed to fail and lost faith in myself - believing more than ever before that I just didn't have the ability within me. Shocking that seven years have passed me now, when I turned 19 I experienced a quarter life crisis which I technically haven't escaped from even today, it gave birth to my desire to achieve and create goals, becoming the flavour it is today. I still haven't resolved the situation and now I do not look at it the same way, if I went to university or some course I would not do so for the social life anymore but purely for the academic drive. I do still wonder however whether I would have what it takes to get there and succeed, or if what lies there has any real value for me at all.

    Extra Questions

    Which of the following temptations do you find yourself acting upon the most? (And briefly state why)

    - To constantly push yourself to be “the best”
    - To be without needs, well-intentioned
    - To replace direct experience with concepts
    - To have an extreme sense of personal moral obligation
    - To think that fulfillment is somewhere else
    - To cyclically become indecisive and seek others for reassurance
    - To overuse imagination in searching for yourself
    - To avoid conflicts and asserting yourself
    - To consider yourself entirely self-sufficient

    The bolded one was my selection. I dream about so much, the grass is usually greener in the land where I dream unless I did not dream it for that reason. I feel I do not have enough and its better elsewhere (usually my "longing" resembles a sense that I am unintelligent and I have historically deeply envied those who I have perceived as more intellectually gifted or perceived as a genius.) Whatever I perceive as being more fulfilling usually on the whole stays as pure speculation. I do not act upon it and any goals I do try and create I usually tear down as new information exposes them as not of optimal effectiveness to reach that which I desire for fulfilment.

    What's something you are: a.) thankful you have I self-pity a lot and "woe is me" would be a good qualifier as my constant but despite this I have plenty to be thankful for. I am thankful that despite its faults I live in humanity's golden age. The hardships I may face are nothing compared to that which was faced in the past where if you lived past your first birthday you either lived and died working the fields from old age and disease or become a soldier and/or warrior and fought to the death. I was spared a life I would have had to resigned myself to accepting or one which would have probably cast me aside due to the often huge scale of my ineffectualism. The prospect the "good old days" could one day return haunts me on a deep level.

    b.) wish you could have? Why? Outside of faster than light travel and cruising across the galaxy trying to learn how the universe works whilst writing poems and telling tall tales I wish I had the intelligence level of others. I feel unintelligent and wish I could be a genius (for multiple reasons.) Even if I convince myself I am smart or if I am called smart by others the sense of intellectual inferiority eventually comes back. It's my obsession and unless I would experience a moment of blossoming self-actualisation then it's here to stay (unless apathy can one day get rid of it.)

    Phew! Hope thats enough information. I've probably missed stuff out (for example I have no concept of fashion, sometimes forget to wash and clean my teeth and am indifferent to social routine) and there is a boat load I haven't articulated so if you have any further questions then let me know. Thanks.

  2. #2
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I'm sold more on 4w3 than 4w5 now. I don't hear anything which indicates a feeling of "not enough" in yourself or the world, so that a greed & hoarding of your own energy/time/space feels necessary. Most of your competence worries seem focused on performance, placing self-value in achievement, feeling people should look up to you but don't (ie. the childhood experience you mentioned) - more 3 winger.

    I think so/sx stacking also. The envy seems most directed at the social realm - peers surpassing you, feeling a social outcast, etc. Sx because you're very aggressively vocal about your discontent & seem to take it out on those around you; I see some "entitlement" & "shamelessness" which is sx-y in a 4. SO/SP tend to be more contained than that (ie. Southern Kross), look more 1ish along with SP/SO types.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #3
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    Thank you for your response. I have been engaging in heavy introspection about the issue for several days in an attempt to find an answers and there have been a few issues of confusion for me which is why I felt the need to ask a third party via this question. I'm in a bit of a rut as the previous typing of me either created a contradiction with my self-perception I haven't been able to reconcile and/or that it was something I was simply subconsciously unwilling to accept. I do not know whether the below are enneagram related or not.

    Edit: Apologies, I appear to have wrote a huge list and got carried away.

    - Although I am vocal online in real life I do not express my pain or unhappiness for a multiple of reasons. At work I indulge in the emotional pain when it occurs and am happy to leave it internalised and explore it within whilst my body goes along with whatever real world task it needs to do. Any envy I do express occurs via the minimalisation of another's achievement or position e.g. He's only a manager because he's the boss's son or "scoring high on an IQ test does not make you a genius" but this is a rare phenomeneon which only occurs when someone else brings it up. Otherwise I express longing in jest or in banter e.g. "why can't I have that!" but it is not a serious plea, purely light-hearted. In terms of my happiness I have a long history of being asked what is wrong and saying "nothing" and being annoyed by any attempts to fix me, I only desire autonomy so I can work through this issue on my own.

    - I usually go without physical comforts (the stiff upper lip) if I feel it could cause a greater hindrance e.g. last week I barely showered simply because I did not want to get my massive ankle scab wet so it would heal up. This made me very cold in the evenings but stuck with it anyway. This is the same with money, I save a lot and historically did not spend money on things unless they are a necessity or Fi-valued luxury.

    - I am for the most part completely out of touch with the world, resonating only with my own thoughts and the patterns I have perceived in the outside world which underpin society and ones which I believe to be true.

    - I don't really care about the world's problems and what others really think about me that much, more about how I can help create the world I envisioned and how others (usually fictional characters) would perceive that.

    - I have never been in a relationship and I am a virgin. I could have on numerous occasions but part of me sees relationships as a waste of time, a consulation prize when self-actualisation is considered impossible. I do not pursue because possibilities of self-actualisation through "a bachelor's autonomy" still present themselves to me. I only fantasise about them when I don't have the motivation to pursue whichever grand vision of mine I hold. Likewise I have the same view on socialising and friendship, more consulation prizes than anything.

    - I have zero fashion sense and usually dress in plain, dark clothing and usually do not shave nor comb my hair. Whether thats a behavioral or motivational trait or not I cannot say, either way I do not care overly much on how the real world judges my appearance, it's more how it judges my personality.

    - A frustration of mine in the past (and the core reason why I've desired to be an NT and an Ni-dom in the past) is because I did not feel I had the abstract or insightful quality to understand the world enough or enough intelligence to make sense of everything that exists - that I lacked the resources to achieve the "scientific breakthrough" which would bring me the sense of significance and bring about the world I desired within.

    - A desire to understand and a desire to achieve both exist inside my mind, however in my introspection the desire for success is nearly indistinguishable from the desire to be significant but the desire to understand is its own standalone entity which carries a degree of influence. Achieving success at school or work without a resultant sense of significance has provided nothing for me in the past. On the other hand I would feel significant and fulfilled if I felt whichever endeavour I engaged in was significant, even if it went unacknowledged by others. When it comes to understanding, I am happy to learn and understand theories and expand my knowledge, the desire to tell another exists but it is more if I feel it would enrich their own understanding. I do not know whether the above is even related to enneagram motivation or whether it is a misunderstanding on my part.

    - This is more a criticism of the online descriptions (which suck IMO) but I feel the 4w3 description would imply that a big part of my inner world did not exist or was irrelevant to me (which it is not.) The description of the 4w3's antics sound to me like real world modes of interaction I may engage in in part in order to get by but ones I have absolutely no love or value for. Interacting and being social only something I do when I am bored or when there isn't something else to do. This is usually at work and when I have something to introspect about I would shun anything remotely similar to these antics entirely in favour of what's happening in my inner world.

    - I don't really relate that much to 4w3 famous people (e.g. Prince) but I'm willing to consider the possibility that it is merely the type 4's individualist component attempting to skew my perception.

    - When online I troll and argue a lot and play devil's advocate, doing things that could perhaps even seem out of character to a real world observer. I partially desire conflict in the hope I will become more resilient and mentally capable for a variety of reasons.

    I don't know if any of the above has any relevance to enneagram at all but a lot of it for me does have a motivational component and is fuelling my confusion.

  4. #4
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    I think you just need to read and try to get a better understanding of the 3 and 5. You seem to be implying that 3 association would drive you away from introspection or something. The wing influence is tricky business and I think as a consequence of authors attempts to create a distinction, the subtypes seem too extreme, even one dimensional. You say that you don't relate to Prince and don't care about fashion, but that's not very telling. Don Riso self-types as a 4w3, and does he seem flashy to you? Grace Coddington works with Vogue and used to be a model, but I think she has a 5 wing. It's not a clear cut thing and people have attributed variations to trifixes, instinctual variants, mbti, and even subwing theory.

    Anyways, I've been looking into subwing theory lately for fun. It seems to explain a thing or two about the variations and confusion between subtypes (wing confusion). And I don't really believe in having both wings. Prince is what I would call a "pure" 4w3. I've seen someone use a slider on another forum, and I'm gonna borrow that for a bit (From here: http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram...tritype-2.html). I don't really see it as wing strength as the poster described it though, but whatever, I get what he's trying to say. Here's one for E4:

    3<--4w3(sw3w2)--------4w3(sw5w4)--4--4w5(sw3w4)-------4w5(sw5w6)-->5

    From what I gather, the subwing theory allows you to see type 4's orientation towards their image construction. This affects expression somewhat and other surface aspects of the type.

    4w3(sw3w2)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EV-Xcl861M
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBzx_3eOyZA

    4w3(sw5w4)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvDcoYlhmcM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3i8kYTR75Q

    4w5(sw3w4)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrdr2OLgrrY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YSG18yspuk

    4w5(sw5w6)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94s6O-xddNk
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Arbus

    I'm new to this stuff so I probably botched the examples and explanation, but you can get a gist of it around various parts of the web (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/fo...0#.UR-69B3qmr0). I used to thought there was something very 3-ish with Johnny Depp. I had a hard time trying to figure out why people saw him as a 4w5. Same with Marilyn Manson, who fits with the flashy 4w3 descriptions. Btw, I'm not saying you're this type or that type. Just wanted to give more variety and color to the distinctions.

  5. #5
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    @Standuble, maybe I don't have the best argument for this but I definitely get a so/sp 4 feel from you, although I think a case could be made for sp/so as well. What do you think of these descriptions? Do they resonate? (I would take them as the be-all end-all but I think they're pretty good.)

    Social/Self-pres

    This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four's shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with "fitting in" is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.

    The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four's sense of being "different from" or "other than." The Four's need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct's drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.

    When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are soc/self.

    Self-pres/Social

    This subtype is the least volatile and fiery of the type Four stackings. They can resemble type One in terms of their efficiency and practicality. Although their focus will be more on the emotional aesthetic, these Fours do have a considerable practical side. Less flashy than some of the subtypes of Four, they nevertheless have a quiet charm and developed sense of style. They are likely to value their possessions, to perhaps collect items of personal emotional significance. They may, for instance, have shelves and shelves of books and have a place for each book. This subtype can also resemble type Six in terms of having a great deal of anxiety. This anxiety often revolves around self-pres concerns such as those surrounding health issues and mortality. Their strong self-pres instinct also lends a degree of independence to this subtype. As the sexual instinct is least pronounced, this subtype of Four is prone to romanticize intimacy without actually pursuing real relationships. When healthy, these Fours can be very productive; when less healthy they might suffer from boughts of melancholy or self pity. The strong self-pres instinct however often helps these individuals to recognize how their state of mind is impacting their health and well being. This enables them to become action oriented.
    I really don't know about the wing. I think what I see is more the instinct influence which can make you seem more intellectual/dry which 'seems' five-ish, but doesn't necessarily mean you have a five wing.

    Good example of so/sp 4w3:


    (Although @OrangeAppled makes a good case for so/sx. I probably shouldn't be suggesting anything at the moment, way too tired and a little hungover.)

  6. #6
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    I've decided to accept the 4w3 so/sx label. There is some truth to it I suppose, it's just a label (I'm still me regardless.) None come close to describing me in my entirety anyway, it's like describing an analog signal using a digital signal or a spectrum of colour with a basic paint pallette.

    As for some of the questions raised:

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You seem to be implying that 3 association would drive you away from introspection or something.
    Only because by the sounds of things the 3 wouldn't have as much use for introspection as a 5 would, it has an external interest and wouldn't be motivated to explore inwards to an unnecessary extent.

    The wing influence is tricky business and I think as a consequence of authors attempts to create a distinction, the subtypes seem too extreme, even one dimensional. You say that you don't relate to Prince and don't care about fashion, but that's not very telling. Don Riso self-types as a 4w3, and does he seem flashy to you? Grace Coddington works with Vogue and used to be a model, but I think she has a 5 wing. It's not a clear cut thing and people have attributed variations to trifixes, instinctual variants, mbti, and even subwing theory.
    I wasn't saying a 4w3 would automatically be pimped out in the style of Prince, Lady Gaga or Michael Jackson. I was more working with the assertion that personality permutations would be within roughly similar parameters to the aforementioned and "accurate" online descriptions yet felt for the most part I was an outsider.

    Anyways, I've been looking into subwing theory lately for fun. It seems to explain a thing or two about the variations and confusion between subtypes (wing confusion). And I don't really believe in having both wings. Prince is what I would call a "pure" 4w3.
    I don't see why he would be a "pure" representation as enneagram is motivationally based, perhaps one of the more prominent ones. But I see what you mean. I should look at subwing theory myself.

    I used to thought there was something very 3-ish with Johnny Depp. I had a hard time trying to figure out why people saw him as a 4w5. Same with Marilyn Manson, who fits with the flashy 4w3 descriptions. Btw, I'm not saying you're this type or that type. Just wanted to give more variety and color to the distinctions.
    I didn't have time to finish the videos but will make the time to finish them. I don't really relate with MM's (I don't know the reasons for his choice in style) and Johnny Depp is someone I look up to, though more as a prominent INFP than 4. Can't say I relate to him as a person but that's Fi for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    What do you think of these descriptions? Do they resonate? (I would take them as the be-all end-all but I think they're pretty good.)
    I do like Stephen Fry and saw echoes of my own behaviour in his mannerisms (when I'm in Ne mode around people I'm quite familar with of course.) Though we are both British and may have both just adopted the same mannerisms over time. I think I probably am a so type but my complaints are the same for that of the wing description - they seem to leave vast areas of my personality untouched, asking the question whether the unmentioned small print of another stacking would be my actual type but as the descriptions are basic I dismiss it in error. I studied both so/sp and both so/sx and they both have their merits and weaknesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I've decided to accept the 4w3 so/sx label. There is some truth to it I suppose, it's just a label (I'm still me regardless.) None come close to describing me in my entirety anyway, it's like describing an analog signal using a digital signal or a spectrum of colour with a basic paint pallette.
    What do hope to gain from this system?

    I don't see why he would be a "pure" representation as enneagram is motivationally based, perhaps one of the more prominent ones. But I see what you mean. I should look at subwing theory myself.
    I'm not entirely sure what you thought I meant, but just to be clear, when I said "pure," I meant someone who is more in line of what the typical description of 4w3 is like - more living and breathing their emotions, more exuding it outwards, more performing quality (double image). It's where the diva stereotype arises from and in a way it has some truth.

    I didn't have time to finish the videos but will make the time to finish them. I don't really relate with MM's (I don't know the reasons for his choice in style) and Johnny Depp is someone I look up to, though more as a prominent INFP than 4. Can't say I relate to him as a person but that's Fi for you.
    You don't need to watch the whole thing. It was mostly my interpretation of what the subtypes look like. Watching the first few minutes or so might be enough to give you a feel for what I was getting at. I've seen Albert Camus typed as so/sp 4w3 and INFP. I haven't confirmed it myself yet. Perhaps you can look up an old interview somewhere.

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