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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiesgonnadie View Post
    Heheheh.....I appear socially courteous, but the funny thing is in the past, I shyed away from it often. It just seemed weird to me, even saying "Thank you" or "Hello, goodbye, how are you" Etc. Especially when I was a kid! But I took in these rituals and social commonalities via perception and general observation, and realized that I should have some of these attributes if I wanted to hold my own socially in the external world. But yeah, back then.....I was definitely socially awkward, and maybe somewhat...socially retarded, dare I say?
    I'm social-first, but I was pretty much the same in the past. Even though I was perceptive in regard to social commonalities, I thought they were strange and didn't adhere to them much until maybe my pre-teen years. (I was kind of precocious and always thought the way most adults talked down to people my age was odd, and for years thought that they were socially retarded.) Even now I forget them sometimes. I probably shouldn't have given courteousness as a reason as to why you may be social first. It doesn't have as much to do with your social skills or your opinion of prevailing social trends; variants are about where your focus is fixed.

  2. #52
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I'll have to read through this again, to really digest it better, but @LeaT, it should be pointed out that the Ne-Si axis for an INP is what's called “the arm of consciousness”, which deals with ego's relation to others. The aux. in particular is the “Parent”, and is thus very visible to others; ESPECIALLY with it being extraverted. Dom. Ji is very “deep”, and can be hard to recognize, even for the person. So the aux. is what is easier to detect.
    It should also be kept in mind that Te is the “backup” to dom. Ti, so that will be seen as well.
    So you can't always go by how much you see someone “using” a function, to determine its place in the ego.

    I see, again, Enneagram is being used almost as an appendage to type, to explain the Ti-like behavior, but that is where I think, to use your words on the other thread, the two systems weren't meant to be put together like that.
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  3. #53
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I'll have to read through this again, to really digest it better, but @LeaT, it should be pointed out that the Ne-Si axis for an INP is what's called “the arm of consciousness”, which deals with ego's relation to others. The aux. in particular is the “Parent”, and is thus very visible to others; ESPECIALLY with it being extraverted. Dom. Ji is very “deep”, and can be hard to recognize, even for the person. So the aux. is what is easier to detect.
    It should also be kept in mind that Te is the “backup” to dom. Ti, so that will be seen as well.
    So you can't always go by how much you see someone “using” a function, to determine its place in the ego.

    I see, again, Enneagram is being used almost as an appendage to type, to explain the Ti-like behavior, but that is where I think, to use your words on the other thread, the two systems weren't meant to be put together like that.
    How do you differentiate between someone whose Ji you can't find "because it's deep" - buried deeply - and someone whose Ji isn't as present because they're an Ne dominant?
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I'll have to read through this again, to really digest it better, but @LeaT, it should be pointed out that the Ne-Si axis for an INP is what's called “the arm of consciousness”, which deals with ego's relation to others. The aux. in particular is the “Parent”, and is thus very visible to others; ESPECIALLY with it being extraverted. Dom. Ji is very “deep”, and can be hard to recognize, even for the person. So the aux. is what is easier to detect.
    Well, you have my questionnaire answers just two posts or so above this one to measure and compare to. Do you think my Ne-Si axis is more discernable than Ji-Je? I'm also many years older than the OP (25 as opposed to 18) so logically according to the theory you adhere to, my auxiliary should at this point be fully developed and I am now working on my tertiary (questionable). If your answer to that question is yes, my Ne is really discernible, then I guess there's merit to the theory but if the answer to that is no, it's not, then I wonder if it's truly applicable in all instances especially considering the OP's age since again, according to the theory you subscribe to, his auxiliary should almost be fully developed and thus also differentiated. Yet if that's true, then where is it?

    It should also be kept in mind that Te is the “backup” to dom. Ti, so that will be seen as well.
    How? If anything I get the feeling that the OP does not have either judging function fully differentiated because at some point the feeling function looks like Fe, other times Fi. It's thus just F, not fully differentiated. Also usually, we tend to strongly reject the same function but of opposite attitude of our dominant since it goes against everything we understand about the world. This is why I filter out Fe instantously and can't grasp an Fe perspective. Even if I try to convert it all comes out as Fi.

    So you can't always go by how much you see someone “using” a function, to determine its place in the ego.
    Oh yes I can, if there's nothing else to go after.

    I see, again, Enneagram is being used almost as an appendage to type, to explain the Ti-like behavior, but that is where I think, to use your words on the other thread, the two systems weren't meant to be put together like that.
    Which is ironic coming from you considering what you did in the MBTI vs socionics thread where you tried to connect the 4 humors temperaments to Keirsey types and enneagram. I think there's a big difference being able to see the difference of what is clearly someone's persona here which is why also applying enneagram is related and the actual functions expressed. As long as you realize that the theories are applicable but for different things I don't see the problem applying all of them when typing someone. You just need to realize where one of them ends and another begins.

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  5. #55
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    @louisgonnadie, I think ENFP and you are definitely soc first and I still fail to see a 4 wing (I will answer this questionnaire too just to really show you the contrast between a judging dominant 5w4 type). Your thinking is too focused on seeking security rather than self-expression in my opinion. So ENFP, IEE-Ne 5w6 so/sx. ENTP and ILE-Ne are still possible also (your aux isn't really discernable). Here are my reasons why I think Ne dominant as you clearly fail to exhibit any obvious judging function with either attitude in the questionnaire you answered (also, ILE is casual-deterministic):



    In both these pictures you are more likely to describe the details of the picture, and both of them ending up with you coming up with possibilities of what the picture could be. You're not necessarily looking for meaning in the picture that would point towards an Ni preference (let alone that your description of Ne was really Ni before, speaking for that you don't really understand or have a natural preference towards Ni regardless of what Nardi's result gave you).

    Nardi's test result also clearly reject sensation.


    This example shows Ne again as well, because most people don't even know how to answer this question, let alone also add another perspective to this question. You clearly have no problem imagining yourself possibly doing something. Other than that, the portion in bold is strikingly 5-ish. This is what people confuse for Ti dominance but it's not. This is just how 5s operate in terms of thinking. I've done this as well in a short story that I wrote:



    Again however, this is not necessarily Ti, it's just 5 think.


    The latter portion of this question reeks of unhealthy soc instinct.



    This one here suggests Ne dominance because again, all you really provide here is an Ne perspective. You keep looking for possibilities. It's also very a very soc oriented answer because you are actually quite aware of how others perceive you and you are doing this comparison quite easily and naturally. You keep describing yourself in relation to society in many of the questions that actually don't need such an answer or perspective which really indicates that the social instinct is really important to you and thus you are so first.

    Also, being close-minded and such is just unhealthy 5 think. I was too. Militant atheist, for example.



    A very 5-ish answer but with Ne tint, most definitely. It is important to note how you actually describe music here which you which appears to be a thinking function. Could be Te (could see an argument for Ne-Te preference as your top two), because the latter part, "gettling a feel for it", that reeks of Fi. Also indicates a slight sx preference as you are talking about a passion.


    I know that you have a lot of mental health problems but your anxiety is peculiar even for a 5, and this is one of the reasons why I opine 6 wing as opposed to 4 wing. Being interested in the arts isn't enough to justify 4-wing. Any person can enjoy the arts or be artistic without having an ounce of 4 influence in them. @Flatlander is for example a 592 and he's writing on a story. I actually think there's a great possibility you two share tritype. I really fail to see the 4 anywhere. (Contrast later to my response. People often mistake me for a 4 because my 4 wing and fixation is really strong).

    Also that you bring up being homeless as an example here is quite a 6-like worry I think, out of a lot of I assume, examples you could provide. This is also the only answer that could point towards some kind sp think.


    Just signs of schizoid personality disorder here (Naranjo links it to type 5).



    Ne in a socionics sense in particular (jovial, goofy humor and so on) and soc. You want to be involved in groups.



    The first portion speaks a bit more towards sx (but I think even soc types seek "depth", just that to them, depth is different than it is for an sx type) but most of the juice in this response is still focused on soc. You like being in groups and you seek out groups.



    This answer here is very Ne with Fi and Te. When you complain about social values it's Fi-tinted. Most of all though, it's soc, soc and more soc. You definitely fall on the anti-soc spectrum.



    More soc. Afraid of being alone, afraid of losing friends.


    Your answer is very soc with a bit sp. To be married and raise a family is so/sp-ish. Also, the latter portion is so 6-like, finding your place in the world kind of deal. Where you belong, who you can trust.



    Ne and soc and some sx. Mostly Ne and soc though.



    More of a 5w6 answer. You don't seek an identity, you seek to understand a process, and there's even a possibility for 3 fix here because you are willing to adapt yourself accordingly in order to seek competence. Maybe 593 then. Could also be a connection from a 6 wing to 3.

    Being emotional isn't what makes 5w4 necessarily although yes, 5w4 can be moody. Being artistic has nothing to do with 5w4 as well although 5w4s tend to be artistic. The problem is that you are very willing to adapt and shape your identity and conform to those around you, especially to appear as competent. Not only does this speak for a 3 fix, it also speaks for soc first. Soc first types are more likely to adapt themselves to the group in order to not disrupt the group. Me? I'm sx/sp and a 5w4 and I walk to the beat of my own drum. A 6 wing also gives a certain social grace a 4 wing lacks because the 4 wing makes you more preoccupied with yourself. A 6 wing influence makes you more likely to seek out a sense of belonging and security from a group, a community or authority figure. I very much see you doing this.

    Also, let alone the blatant name dropping was very soc. I don't even know who half of these people are nor could I in fact care less.
    Interesting perspectives especially pertaining to the variants, they seem pretty plausible and I reckon you know a lot about it (actually, your focus seems more enneagram than MBTI) so I'd probably agree, and peg my variant as so/sx or sx/so. If Sp is more focused towards security of the self (which I can relate to in some ways, so I'd still not rule it out of the aux-stacking just yet but as far as I know I've never been really focused towards those types of standards) then it doesn't quite resonate with me thoroughly, so that eliminates sp-dominance, and probably sp-auxiliary. Plus my desires to grow into a more interesting person do tend to pertain to desires of external approval from people I admire, especially, so that's a +1 for so-dom (and maybe 5w6).

    I don't know a whole lot about the differences between 5w4/w6 but when I read some threads on that particular issue I was leaning towards the 4 wing. However they were mixed perspectives so they could have been a little off. I'm not sure about my wing anymore, I'll do more research but you seem very knowledgeable towards the enneagram, so I am somewhat trusting of your 5w6 estimate.

    However I do have a question for you: how long have you been studying MBTI and enneagram theory, and if so, which do you focus towards more? Vague and broad question, perhaps, but I was wanting to ask. Also, you said in one of your estimates here, based on my creative and somewhat humorous description of myself:

    Again however, this is not necessarily Ti, it's just 5 think.

    From what I've read, type 5s usually lean towards Ti (fueled by Ne) types, for reasons varying, but mainly since the type 5 is seemingly on a quest for knowledge in terms of whatever that user is interested in, and looks towards numerous possibilities shifting, and the type 5 user is likely to dig deeper into them. Leans towards Ti (internal-based processing seeking a hypothesis) but it could be Te in some cases. Not sure, this is pure speculation. Not saying a type 5 will almost always have a primary Ti-preference, but it seems pretty plausible, which could explain why so many INTPs usually resonate with type 5.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    So soc of you to notice these things. Very shaman-like. You take note of "interesting people" with "interesting knowledge" or "interesting skills".

    Nope. Nothing of this is sp. Sp stands for self-preservation and its primary focus is the security of the self. Sp types are concerns about health, shelter and food because if you are sick there's a risk that you'll die, if you have no roof on top of your head there's a risk you'll die and if you have no food there's a risk you'll die. Sp types seek comfort and security in order to sustain ourselves. An example of sp is that I can over-eat when I'm hungry because as sx first I tend to reject or ignore my hunger feelings until the last minute. However, an sp last type would not over-eat as opposed to I. That sp is second makes me indulge in my instinct once I actually fulfill it.


    Yes, that you mention admiration as the first thing that pops into your mind is soc. This is very soc 5 think. The rest points a bit more towards sx when you mention passions and desires that's more related to sx than soc. So so/sx.
    This is not inferior Fe, this is the soc instinct. That you have a desire to fit in is soc. An Fe type doesn't necessarily feel the need to fit in. Fe is about extraverted feeling jugdement so what they do is to for example measure what's socially appropriate by taking in feeling values from the outside. I let an actual Fe types ( @Maybe @flatliner perhaps?) explain this better because I'm largely oblivious to how Fe truly operates as a judging evaluation. I only understand Fi since this is my dominant preference.
    Your Ne-Si axis is really strong so yes, it just suggests Ne dominance really in my opinion. The auxiliary and tertiary functions can barely be discerned. You just give us Ne and more Ne with some occasional Si. Also, the fact that you describe your Si so vividly could very well put it in an inferior position as you seem to approach it in more black and white terms.

    By the way, I'm Si tertiary and I'm pretty much the anti-thesis of being nostalgic. I hate nostalgia (I also reject Si hardcore out of my psyche even though I unconsciously fall back on it a lot because my Ne is very strong). So citing nostalgia as an example of tertiary Si isn't true here and doesn't say anything. It's more relevant to know how it truly operates for you.

    So question: how do you react if you suddenly find weird red spots on your body you never noticed before?


    I still think this is an example of you tapping into Te as I think Te is more focused on qualitative data than quantitative.

    lol no, socially introverted perhaps but cognitively? Nope. Can't see it. You just spit out Ne like in almost every answer you provide. So it makes you an ENxP. No offense to other typers here in this thread but to be quite blunt and crass, you get too blinded by the OP's persona and this is exactly what I was talking about in the MBTI vs socionics thread with Eric B. The type 5 is automatically going to look INTx because it's stereotypically similar in terms of behavior. However, once you look beyond the surface level of the persona the OP is depicting that's arguably also very 3-like in its projection, there really isn't much Ti dominant judgement to speak of, nor do I see any genuine signs of inferior Fe. There is however a lot of Ne going on, which in fact suggests it's probably the OP's dominant function.
    Yeah, soc instinct.

    I'll give you a secret (hah, so sx of me): I haven't read any official book on any kind of type theory except enneagram so I can't recommend anything to you. I have however read lots of excerpts and generally speaking I think one shouldn't get too hung up on books but try to formulate your own opinion (see, that's my 4 wing at work). It's not impossible to gain a lot of expertise by simply reading, contrasting and comparing a large bulk of information over time and still achieve great accuracy without ever truly accessing official sources.
    One thing I find interesting somewhere in here: you estimated how based on what I mentioned in terms of trying to fit into groups that were appealing to me (and failing, I'll note) is more so-focused, but you mentioned that I could have an unhealthy-soc variant, or "anti-soc". From what I've read... if there is an unhealthy soc preference, that seems very inferior-Fe, especially based on what I have read around the internet, a lot of these characteristics resonate with inferior-Fe users. Or, they could be mistyped. But this is...a little sketchy. Do you mean that I may have a neglected so-dom or aux, due to circumstances in my life, thus making it unhealthy? This also leads me to this: do variants/instincts change? Or is it all cognitive, just like enneagram, MBTI/JUng typology, and the like?

    As far as your estimate of Ne (Pe) dominance: it seems plausible, especially based off of what I wrote, but usually whenever my Pe spawns a possiblity, I tend to think it through and make sense of it all, rather than just follow and wander through whatever Pe throws at me. This suggests Ji > Pe to me. A lot of your estimates pertain to what I described about myself, and my quite possibly inaccurate discernation of what goes on in my head. So I'd still lean INxP at the moment, but I'm not ruling out having an extroverted dominant function. Unless I'm misunderstood, and the frequencies of whatever possibilities and such are spawned by Ne (Pe) actually determine the placement of where the function is? Or does it suggest a well developed aux and relationship between the dom and aux, thus, making things less distinguishable?

    And about your question about finding red spots on my body: I'd assume it was either a rash or mosquito bites, or chicken pox, or something (if it was the latter I might probably freak out) but overall I wouldn't worry too much about it. It might make me feel a little uneasy, and the possibility of maybe having an infection of some sort would probably freak me out (since I've heard from people that infections are...scary), so that could lead me to take action. If it was something minor that didn't look like something with a connection to illness, sickness, whatever - I probably wouldn't care, maybe a little freaked out by it, but mainly nothing.
    "For a minute there, I lost myself...I lost myself."

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  6. #56
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I'll have to read through this again, to really digest it better, but @LeaT, it should be pointed out that the Ne-Si axis for an INP is what's called “the arm of consciousness”, which deals with ego's relation to others. The aux. in particular is the “Parent”, and is thus very visible to others; ESPECIALLY with it being extraverted. Dom. Ji is very “deep”, and can be hard to recognize, even for the person. So the aux. is what is easier to detect.
    It should also be kept in mind that Te is the “backup” to dom. Ti, so that will be seen as well.
    So you can't always go by how much you see someone “using” a function, to determine its place in the ego.

    I see, again, Enneagram is being used almost as an appendage to type, to explain the Ti-like behavior, but that is where I think, to use your words on the other thread, the two systems weren't meant to be put together like that.
    I kind of get where you're coming from here. It seems like, and I've always got the impression that the enneagram suggests a certain flavor to a MBTI type. I would also agree that when in extrovert mode, and I would assume the aux comes out much more than the inferior, and since it is pretty developed (or in some cases very developed) it can be mistaken as a dominant function since there is so much emphasis being put on the aux. However, it is based off of processing styles, so for example, we have Ne and Ti; of course many ideas branch out and we dig deep into them, but is the focus of processing more towards generating ideas and connections, forming very abstract ideas with shaky levels of emphasis towards components of the whole connection, and digging deep into those components with less emphasis later, or digging deep into ideas and making more sense of connections, almost crafting them into an architectural structure of thoughts, and then branching out more ideas and random connections later? This is just a very raw speculation, however, I could be totally off the mark. Maybe elaborate further on this?
    "For a minute there, I lost myself...I lost myself."

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  7. #57
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by louiesgonnadie View Post
    Interesting perspectives especially pertaining to the variants, they seem pretty plausible and I reckon you know a lot about it (actually, your focus seems more enneagram than MBTI) so I'd probably agree, and peg my variant as so/sx or sx/so. If Sp is more focused towards security of the self (which I can relate to in some ways, so I'd still not rule it out of the aux-stacking just yet but as far as I know I've never been really focused towards those types of standards) then it doesn't quite resonate with me thoroughly, so that eliminates sp-dominance, and probably sp-auxiliary. Plus my desires to grow into a more interesting person do tend to pertain to desires of external approval from people I admire, especially, so that's a +1 for so-dom (and maybe 5w6).

    I don't know a whole lot about the differences between 5w4/w6 but when I read some threads on that particular issue I was leaning towards the 4 wing. However they were mixed perspectives so they could have been a little off. I'm not sure about my wing anymore, I'll do more research but you seem very knowledgeable towards the enneagram, so I am somewhat trusting of your 5w6 estimate.

    However I do have a question for you: how long have you been studying MBTI and enneagram theory, and if so, which do you focus towards more? Vague and broad question, perhaps, but I was wanting to ask. Also, you said in one of your estimates here, based on my creative and somewhat humorous description of myself:
    Read my questionnaire answer to realize that your lack of focus on authenticity doesn't speak for a 4 wing. I wrote that for a reason. Also, there's no point focusing on your MTBI type anymore because all you do is Ne, Ne and more Ne. It's so obvious you're an Ne dom that I think only those who get stuck on seeing your 5 persona mistake you for an INTP. And I've been studying this for about half a year when it comes to MBTI and Jung, less than that when it comes to enneagram. I don't focus towards either one specifically.

    Also, [QUOTE]

    Again however, this is not necessarily Ti, it's just 5 think.

    From what I've read, type 5s usually lean towards Ti (fueled by Ne) types, for reasons varying, but mainly since the type 5 is seemingly on a quest for knowledge in terms of whatever that user is interested in, and looks towards numerous possibilities shifting, and the type 5 user is likely to dig deeper into them. Leans towards Ti (internal-based processing seeking a hypothesis) but it could be Te in some cases. Not sure, this is pure speculation. Not saying a type 5 will almost always have a primary Ti-preference, but it seems pretty plausible, which could explain why so many INTPs usually resonate with type 5.
    No, this is entirely missing the point I was making and doesn't show good reflection of how it works. The problem is that people think/believe they are INTx types because they are E5 by confusing the nature of E5 with say, Ti dominance. However, it shows a lack of insight of how the systems work because functions don't operate as 5 think.

    One thing I find interesting somewhere in here: you estimated how based on what I mentioned in terms of trying to fit into groups that were appealing to me (and failing, I'll note) is more so-focused, but you mentioned that I could have an unhealthy-soc variant, or "anti-soc". From what I've read... if there is an unhealthy soc preference, that seems very inferior-Fe, especially based on what I have read around the internet, a lot of these characteristics resonate with inferior-Fe users. Or, they could be mistyped. But this is...a little sketchy. Do you mean that I may have a neglected so-dom or aux, due to circumstances in my life, thus making it unhealthy? This also leads me to this: do variants/instincts change? Or is it all cognitive, just like enneagram, MBTI/JUng typology, and the like?
    You're not an inferior Fe type. ENFP is most likely right for you. Anti-soc is simply a neurotic soc which can appear in any type. It simply relates to a counter-soc attitude so instead of seeking community you reject community. And yes, something like the matter. And no, I doubt it relates to our cognitive functions.

    As far as your estimate of Ne (Pe) dominance: it seems plausible, especially based off of what I wrote, but usually whenever my Pe spawns a possiblity, I tend to think it through and make sense of it all, rather than just follow and wander through whatever Pe throws at me. This suggests Ji > Pe to me. A lot of your estimates pertain to what I described about myself, and my quite possibly inaccurate discernation of what goes on in my head. So I'd still lean INxP at the moment, but I'm not ruling out having an extroverted dominant function. Unless I'm misunderstood, and the frequencies of whatever possibilities and such are spawned by Ne (Pe) actually determine the placement of where the function is? Or does it suggest a well developed aux and relationship between the dom and aux, thus, making things less distinguishable?
    Check the difference in our writings. The difference shouldn't be more apparent. You can't come to decisions for the life you, to judge data and facts. It's just pure Ne all over the place. See, look at you, all those questions. You're not arriving at any conclusions that would indicate strong Ji. This has nothing to do with placement; this has simply to do with the fact that you cognitively seem to view the world through Ne, not Ji. Which makes you an ENxP, I reiterate, an ENxP, not INxP. I'm what you'd call an INxP. Read how we approach data differently. The fact you cannot seem to decide on your own annoys the hell out of me because to me this is so obvious. You just decide, see? That's Ji.

    And about your question about finding red spots on my body: I'd assume it was either a rash or mosquito bites, or chicken pox, or something (if it was the latter I might probably freak out) but overall I wouldn't worry too much about it. It might make me feel a little uneasy, and the possibility of maybe having an infection of some sort would probably freak me out (since I've heard from people that infections are...scary), so that could lead me to take action. If it was something minor that didn't look like something with a connection to illness, sickness, whatever - I probably wouldn't care, maybe a little freaked out by it, but mainly nothing.
    Look at you, freaking out over the possibility that the rash could be something dangerous even though you're not sp first or second. You're freaked out by random red spots on your body? Inferior Si. I just needed to confirm that really by having you write something in relation to it which you there here.

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  8. #58
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Hmm. I forgot to mention that when you said you combined all of the information that you've read and formed a judgement based off of it, that's what I'm trying to do. The problem is it can be REALLY confusing since this is all one big theory that can be misinterpreted by many people (ESPECIALLY the work of Jung). That's why I appear so....indecisive, and speculative, on MBTI.

    Oh, and not to sound like an ass (I REALLY don't intend to) but I think you kind of misinterpreted and overemphasized my statement of freaking out over chicken pox, or a rash or whatever. I meant if it was chicken pox, I'd probably freak out at first, but it would settle in. If it was just random red spots...it wouldn't really make much of a difference, just some minor uneasiness towards it. If it was somewhere where I couldn't see it, I probably wouldn't care.

    Ok. The summoning of LeaT has subsided.
    "For a minute there, I lost myself...I lost myself."

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  9. #59
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Well, you have my questionnaire answers just two posts or so above this one to measure and compare to. Do you think my Ne-Si axis is more discernable than Ji-Je? I'm also many years older than the OP (25 as opposed to 18) so logically according to the theory you adhere to, my auxiliary should at this point be fully developed and I am now working on my tertiary (questionable). If your answer to that question is yes, my Ne is really discernible, then I guess there's merit to the theory but if the answer to that is no, it's not, then I wonder if it's truly applicable in all instances especially considering the OP's age since again, according to the theory you subscribe to, his auxiliary should almost be fully developed and thus also differentiated. Yet if that's true, then where is it?
    You answer most of those questions through Enneagram rather than functions, and when I look at them in terms of functions, most of them seem to pertain more to judging functions anyway, so of course, the few functions you mention would be the Fi/Te "rational spine" and not the NeSi "irrational arm".

    But right off the bat, I could see in the following answers that do touch on perceiving:
    #2a sounds like Ni more than Fi (or Ne)
    #2b Fi and Si
    3 sounds like NeSi
    11 a and b: N
    13: Ne+Ti (you're not interested in establishing the order yourself,but having someone else do it. Otherwise, the whole concept of "order" is relative)
    15, 16a: Ne + Fi

    OP #5 you asked basically an "extraverted" question; i.e. focused on the outside world. So of course he turned to his preferred extraverted perspective. (hence, "possibilities" of what others would think). On your answer, you again used instinctual variants only, but even still, you do reference possibilities (how people "can" see you, how you "can" come off, how you think you don't come off, with even an admission of uncertainty)

    #6 I see Ti. What you seem to be doing is interpreting all his Ti as Enneagram 5, and it may match somehow, but you seem to be using one system to sidestep elements of the other, to place him in a type of that other. That doesn't make sense

    #11, don't forget that Fe is inferior, so a young INTP will likely complain just as much, if not more, about social values. This is when Lenore's theory of the "right brain alternative" (Fi "Crow's Nest") would come in as well.

    (It should also be noted that the ages of development of aux. and afterward will vary. My tertiary Si developed young; beginning around 12, while the tert. is often said to develop in the 20's. So it doesn't matter which of you is older (by just 7 years, yet).

    How? If anything I get the feeling that the OP does not have either judging function fully differentiated because at some point the feeling function looks like Fe, other times Fi. It's thus just F, not fully differentiated. Also usually, we tend to strongly reject the same function but of opposite attitude of our dominant since it goes against everything we understand about the world. This is why I filter out Fe instantously and can't grasp an Fe perspective. Even if I try to convert it all comes out as Fi.
    Feeling being undifferentiated right there should be the defining identifier of it as inferior. The aux. should be developed by his age. It's possible for it to not be, but I think that is probably rare.
    That's also why you have Lenore's theory, which says that the Fi might even show up before Fe. Many people's K2C results even match this.
    Which is ironic coming from you considering what you did in the MBTI vs socionics thread where you tried to connect the 4 humors temperaments to Keirsey types and enneagram. I think there's a big difference being able to see the difference of what is clearly someone's persona here which is why also applying enneagram is related and the actual functions expressed. As long as you realize that the theories are applicable but for different things I don't see the problem applying all of them when typing someone. You just need to realize where one of them ends and another begins.
    Yes, I believe they parallel, and I believe the Enneagram seems to match this parallel, but again, the way you're doing it, you have one system tacked on as an appendage, that you use as a contrary explanation of something that can be described by the functions. So the OP, instead of simply being an INTP becomes an "ENFP5", because everything he does that looks like "Ti", is really this fifth variable, the Enneagram type. This to me seems to be making it more confusing.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    How do you differentiate between someone whose Ji you can't find "because it's deep" - buried deeply - and someone whose Ji isn't as present because they're an Ne dominant?
    If they're Ne dominant, than Ji is auxiliary, and thus is "present". It still might be "deep" and thus hard to grasp, but since it's now in the "Parent" position, it will be what he tends to reference in dealing with (like helping out) others. The archetypal roles are the best determinant, for they begin with the dominant, which is like the ego's "operating charter", and everything else hangs from that; the auxiliary is then like the "helper". It's based on the subject's ego structure, not what outside people think they see being "used" the most.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

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