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  1. #151
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually it is being aware of feelings of love, hate, happiness, despair, empathy and being very adept at analyzing or interpreting what they mean on a deeper level, which is why some people say it's a "deeper" function than Fe, like Ti is to Te, analyzing the systems and reasons instead of just doing what works.
    I realize I misread Eric B's last comment but regardless, my point still stands in that there's still feeling involved regarding Fi that extends beyond the feeling of emulating what others feel through empathy which I argue is still not so much a feeling as it is a logical process in many instances. It doesn't necessarily have to result in feeling anything particular in itself, I think.

    Anyway, aside that, I rather not have a discussion about the exact nature of Fi with you specifically because you're an Fi dom because it tends to just result in a clusterfuck because there's also the Fi evaluative process involved where Fi types just... don't get other people's Fi. Because that person's Fi doesn't match up their view of Fi.

    Seen it happen too much on PersC and I'm pretty sure you know what I'm referring to. Not because I don't mind talking about Fi but I wonder how fruitful it'd be.

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  2. #152
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yes, "good and bad" are generally associated with Feeling (where "correct/incorrect" would be more Thinking). But what you're describing sound sounds like undifferentiated Feeling coupled with iNtuition. There is still no rational process there; it is totally irrational.
    That is the definition of judgment vs perception; Jung's original terms for them, in fact. So this would be an area where the "good/bad" judgment is from an unconscious "Feeling", that is at this point, not differentiated.
    I never once implied, assuming you're referring to the Han Solo example, that his feeling is particularly differentiated. I am however implying that his judgement in this very scenario seems introverted because as you note, in this very scene he doesn't seem to first check his feelings with the people he's there with which I think would be an Fe thing to do. Than Han Solo could potentially Fe throughout the rest of the entire Star Wars series which would thus imply a somewhat undifferentiated F function since it doesn't seem to prefer any attitude strongly, but in this very example it's clearly introverted in terms of judgement.

    Again, as was described to me, undifferentiated functions remain tied to the emotions. And that is what you are describing: emotions that produce this F-like sense of "bad", but does not fit the j-defining criteria of being rational. It's just an "emotionally freighted image". When you say "he" judges, that implies the conscious ego. But that's not what's happening there, at least not initially.
    He would still need to perceive, we all do, but the question becomes where our focus lies.

    Now, if the person prefers Fi (or one of the complexes brings it to the surface for the other types), then he will bring it into consciousness as a rational decision making process, such as the example I gave.
    Doesn't have to be that elaborate. It's not like you always go around and think, "This is logical/correct for XYZ reasons", rather, just knowing it's logical should be sufficient, no? And are you implying my feeling is not differentiated then considering that the examples I gave were examples of my reasoning process? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I realize I misread Eric B's last comment but regardless, my point still stands in that there's still feeling involved regarding Fi that extends beyond the feeling of emulating what others feel through empathy which I argue is still not so much a feeling as it is a logical process in many instances. It doesn't necessarily have to result in feeling anything particular in itself, I think.
    It's not a logical process for me. When I was six or seven years old, I could see disappointment on the face of some old person on the Price Is Right on tv and feel sorry for them. I feel physically sick if someone hurts an animal, I can't even bear it. I knew when my grumpy, non-expressive ISTJ grandfather had sadness or despair in his eyes. All before puberty. Not a logical process.

    In my teens, I became unduly self-absorbed about my own feelings (however, considering the life I've had, it's been in my best interest to self-examine) and would "wallow" in Feelings...like the beauty of something aesthetic, or I even had that "sadness is beautiful" trip at 15 or so (which I grew out of once I left home and got more life experience, sadness is not beautiful, but nostalgia or mild longing might be under certain circumstances, it's more of an honoring of what was, or what could be instead of actual "sadness.")

    By young adulthood I was a defender of the weak and down trodden, but had also developed an unhealthy inferior Te-ish tone of bratty boot stomping indignation. I suddenly had clear, rational definable ethics starting around junior year of high school. Things which could be expressed in what could be called a slightly more logical manner.

    But it still wasn't until my late twenties and early thirties that I began developing real perspective, and progressively sharpening my ethics more and more. I wonder if this is just a never ending process of moral maturity, especially given in my case, where I've suffered abuse, and therefore been distracted from the "normal" maturity process by my own need to self-heal.

    Which is why Fi types can also be seen as so artistically or poetically or philosophically creative, because even when their ethics are not fully mature, or they are emotionally unhealthy, they can still move other people with their creations that strike some deep nerve in other people. And that's the power of Fi too, even when it's not expressed in definable rational ethics.

    It's the power of feeling. But unlike the charisma to sway a crowd, it's more like dong things from such a deep and authentic place that it strikes the same nerve in others, and so it helps us all to grow, and hopefully also the person doing the creating, learning from the process.

    Like my adventures in foruming.

    Anyway, aside that, I rather not have a discussion about the exact nature of Fi with you specifically because you're an Fi dom because it tends to just result in a clusterfuck because there's also the Fi evaluative process involved where Fi types just... don't get other people's Fi. Because that person's Fi doesn't match up their view of Fi.

    Seen it happen too much on PersC and I'm pretty sure you know what I'm referring to. Not because I don't mind talking about Fi but I wonder how fruitful it'd be.
    I do.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I realize I misread Eric B's last comment
    You seem to do that a lot.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  5. #155
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You seem to do that a lot.
    No, that was the only time I think I've ever actually misread anything on this forum.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  6. #156
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I never once implied, assuming you're referring to the Han Solo example, that his feeling is particularly differentiated. I am however implying that his judgement in this very scenario seems introverted because as you note, in this very scene he doesn't seem to first check his feelings with the people he's there with which I think would be an Fe thing to do. Than Han Solo could potentially Fe throughout the rest of the entire Star Wars series which would thus imply a somewhat undifferentiated F function since it doesn't seem to prefer any attitude strongly, but in this very example it's clearly introverted in terms of judgement.
    He would still need to perceive, we all do, but the question becomes where our focus lies.
    Doesn't have to be that elaborate. It's not like you always go around and think, "This is logical/correct for XYZ reasons", rather, just knowing it's logical should be sufficient, no? And are you implying my feeling is not differentiated then considering that the examples I gave were examples of my reasoning process? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
    My point there was not so much whether you implied his Feeling was particularly differentiated, but if you acknowledge it was not, then you can't really use that as an example of Fi. When we speak of what Fi is, we're generally assuming it's differentiated. Else, it loses its character. What makes it Fi. So, again, you see a "feeling" that something is "bad", yet there is no rational conscious decision to differentiate this from the emotions, as a form of the "feeling" function.
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  7. #157
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    No, that was the only time I think I've ever actually misread anything on this forum.
    Yes you have, you just don't think you have.

    When you wrote "judging as his dominant function," that means J is his dominant function. This is wrong, so of course I corrected it. If you meant to say T or F is his dominant function, then you should have said so in the first place.
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  8. #158
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Yes you have, you just don't think you have.

    When you wrote "judging as his dominant function," that means J is his dominant function. This is wrong, so of course I corrected it. If you meant to say T or F is his dominant function, then you should have said so in the first place.
    When I say judging as dominant function I am clearly referring t T/F because T/F are judging functions. We use it to judge incoming data collected by our perception functions. This is completely irrelevant to the MBTI letter code J/P which describes something entirely different, namely the function of the first extraverted function in the type.

    In other words, you're not correcting anything because there's nothing to correct. You're in fact the one being wrong, factually here.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  9. #159
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's not a logical process for me. When I was six or seven years old, I could see disappointment on the face of some old person on the Price Is Right on tv and feel sorry for them. I feel physically sick if someone hurts an animal, I can't even bear it. I knew when my grumpy, non-expressive ISTJ grandfather had sadness or despair in his eyes. All before puberty. Not a logical process.
    Can't Fe users also do this? Albeit, ones that are higher in hierarchy.
    "For a minute there, I lost myself...I lost myself."

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  10. #160
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    Yes, but the difference is that for the Fe type, they will "emote" directly based on the other person's reaction, while for Fi, it will be from referencing one's inner state and matching it to what the other person is expressing.
    This is what I was saying; that the two are pretty similar or can do the same things; only the reference point (internal or external) is different.
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