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  1. #141
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Because maybe... he doesn't have a strong preference towards judging as his dominant function?
    Judging isn't a function, it's a lifestyle preference.
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  2. #142
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Judging isn't a function, it's a lifestyle preference.


    T/F are judging functions because you use them to judge information gathered by N/S that are perceiving functions.

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  3. #143
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That entire section of the OP shows how he interprets or interpreted functions. I didn't find anything useful in determining type from that.
    I was going to point that out too. It's not like it was some official statements or something, so the descriptions of Fi, especially, were what were based on stuff like "feeling strongly", and that is only partly true, but is often overgeneralized.
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  4. #144
    undergoing self-analysis louiesgonnadie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I was going to point that out too. It's not like it was some official statements or something, so the descriptions of Fi, especially, were what were based on stuff like "feeling strongly", and that is only partly true, but is often overgeneralized.
    Can you elaborate further on that?
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  5. #145
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post2056053 and the whole exchange after that. (I got these two threads mixed up; .e. which posts were which thread, and thought you were over there as well. But that's where I elaborate on the misunderstandings of Fi).
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  6. #146
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post2056053 and the whole exchange after that. (I got these two threads mixed up; .e. which posts were which thread, and thought you were over there as well. But that's where I elaborate on the misunderstandings of Fi).
    Just reacting a bit here but since when did you become the authority of how Fi operates over an actual Fi dom? Unless you actually know the feeling of Fi, that is, how Fi feels like, I think if anything, it's you who most likely don't get Fi rather than the feeling of Fi being over-emphasized. Fi is very much a feeling. It's just not a feeling in how we generally understand the word because it's not a feeling of say, sadness, happiness or love. Rather, it's a feeling of whether something feels right or wrong, good or bad.

    To emphasize this, I am going to use an example that most people actually think is Ni but is Fi, and that is when Han Solo says "I have a bad feeling about this." Why? Can't Ni provoke feelings? Actually not in the context that is occurring, because the reason Han Solo is even expressing what he's expressing is because there's a sense of wrong-ness to what's going on. It doesn't feel right. This situation doesn't feel right. Him being there isn't right. He has a bad feeling because he shouldn't be there, he should not have gotten involved and it just doesn't feel right. It's a bad feeling. It's Fi over Ni because Ni would be an insight something like, "I finally know why I'm here!" Fi in contrast is about what feels good or right for you.

    Not because I actually genuinely believe you'll understand this (most likely not as a Ti dom) but anyway.

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  7. #147
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    We're arguing over definitions of a logical system, so if anything, that would be more the domain of Ti. Whether Fi dom. or not, Fi is said to be very difficult to explain. (As is Ni). Those two are the most misunderstood). So people will touch upon the whole "right or wrong" thing, but then turn it into an overgeneralization where anyone who ever thinks something is right or wrong, is "using Fi", and therefore must prefer it.

    Feeling (both introverted and extraverted) is a judgment function, Meaning a rational decision-making perspective. Han Solo's "feeling" is more a means of taking in information, or perception. So Ni would be more likely. There is a subconscious pattern he is likely sensing in the situation, that tells him that it isn't right, and being there isn't right. There's no rational principle [the elements of judging functions, basically] or anything like that there.
    Now, if he says "I see something that isn't right, and I don't think I should be somewhere where things aren't right, then he's making a rational decision, that is a judgment, that might be Fi. (Where I might ignore it, using logic only, and that is what Fi unconsciousness is like).

    Right there, you mentioned "right or wrong", which touches upon the correct definition, but then veered into the common equivocation with the general meaning of "feelings".
    Fi is not so much about feeling "feelings" (which is the common misconception I was addressing), but being more aware of them, so that we make decisions based on them. (We all "feel" them).
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  8. #148
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    We're arguing over definitions of a logical system, so if anything, that would be more the domain of Ti. Whether Fi dom. or not, Fi is said to be very difficult to explain. (As is Ni). Those two are the most misunderstood). So people will touch upon the whole "right or wrong" thing, but then turn it into an overgeneralization where anyone who ever thinks something is right or wrong, is "using Fi", and therefore must prefer it.
    Yes, Fi good and bad is different to morals but they're not exclusive either. And I explained Fi in a way I think is very simple to understand and I provided a practical and known example to exemplify. I was saying that you made it sound like Fi has nothing to do with feelings at all but that isn't true and I also further explained the difference between the feeling of Fi and feelings as a whole.

    It really can't be simpler than this.

    Feeling (both introverted and extraverted) is a judgment function, Meaning a rational decision-making perspective. Han Solo's "feeling" is more a means of taking in information, or perception. So Ni would be more likely. There is a subconscious pattern he is likely sensing in the situation, that tells him that it isn't right, and being there isn't right. There's no rational principle [the elements of judging functions, basically] or anything like that there.
    Feeling as a function, especially Fi, can often be mistaken for intuition in particular since Fi, just like intuition, can create hunches and so on. I already outlined why this is Fi and not Ni. He's not intaking information, he's clearly judging information. Why otherwise call it bad? Saying that it's good or bad, that's a judgement. Perception would simply be, "this is a situation". But in order to evaluate the situation itself, is it dangerous, it is positive, is it logical? we need to turn to our judging functions.
    Now, if he says "I see something that isn't right, and I don't think I should be somewhere where things aren't right, then he's making a rational decision, that is a judgment, that might be Fi. (Where I might ignore it, using logic only, and that is what Fi unconsciousness is like).
    He doesn't need to say it like this because all this is captured in his expression. Why would he otherwise even say it's a bad feeling to begin with? It's a bad feeling because he, personally, experiences the situation as bad. This in turn implies that he does not want to be there, that he should not have done whatever action that led him there and so on. Why would he want to be in a bad situation? It doesn't feel right for him to be there, it's bad. He should not have gone. I get that you don't get it, you just filter it out, but what you're showing here is just a poor understanding of the system. It clearly doesn't help you to get Fi, that's for sure.
    Right there, you mentioned "right or wrong", which touches upon the correct definition, but then veered into the common equivocation with the general meaning of "feelings".
    Fi is not so much about feeling "feelings" (which is the common misconception I was addressing), but being more aware of them, so that we make decisions based on them. (We all "feel" them).
    Nope, sorry, it's not. It's not about being aware of feelings of love, hatred or happiness. No, the feeling of Fi is different. Again, it's simply a feeling of good and bad, right or wrong. For example, I can go to a party and after a while I can have this feeling of "this doesn't feel right". The people present are not the ones I like. The music being played is the one I like. And so on. It can be a myriad of reasons why being there doesn't feel right. What's important however, is the feeling itself in this example. It doesn't feel right and as a result, I'll probably leave. That's the feeling of Fi. Similarly, I can go to a party and feel "this feels so good" because the people are right, the music is right and so on. It's kind of like the feeling when people say, "it's so good to see you again." This is Fi and this is what you need to understand. You cannot treat Fi as Ti.

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  9. #149
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    Actually it is being aware of feelings of love, hate, happiness, despair, empathy and being very adept at analyzing or interpreting what they mean on a deeper level, which is why some people say it's a "deeper" function than Fe, like Ti is to Te, analyzing the systems and reasons instead of just doing what works.

    That's why young Fi types seem so self-absorbed and selfish because they've got to figure themselves out before they can start extend it to the rest of humanity. I think what young Fi types call empathy is actually just projection of what they would want or feel on to other people, and it's only with maturity that the Fi dom/aux actually starts developing real actual empathy by interpreting other people's genuine feelings.

    Yes, it's about things feeling right or wrong, and having a system of ethics (and an Fi dom can have a twisted sense of ethics, just like any feeling type, an Fi type can stay locked somewhere in mid-maturity).

    An unhealthy Fi dom is a sight to behold. "I am unhappy. This all feels wrong to me. Wah." Jung says the unhealthy or immature Fi type is vindictive, meglomaniacal, and basically has delusions of selfish grandiosity about their own ethics or wishes.

    Usually though it's milder than that, just manifesting in a form of vaguely childish, cranky self-absorption, masked in a cloak of wide-eyed sensitivity.

  10. #150
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yes, "good and bad" are generally associated with Feeling (where "correct/incorrect" would be more Thinking). But what you're describing sound sounds like undifferentiated Feeling coupled with iNtuition. There is still no rational process there; it is totally irrational.
    That is the definition of judgment vs perception; Jung's original terms for them, in fact. So this would be an area where the "good/bad" judgment is from an unconscious "Feeling", that is at this point, not differentiated.
    Again, as was described to me, undifferentiated functions remain tied to the emotions. And that is what you are describing: emotions that produce this F-like sense of "bad", but does not fit the j-defining criteria of being rational. It's just an "emotionally freighted image". When you say "he" judges, that implies the conscious ego. But that's not what's happening there, at least not initially.
    Now, if the person prefers Fi (or one of the complexes brings it to the surface for the other types), then he will bring it into consciousness as a rational decision making process, such as the example I gave.
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