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[Hirsch63]

I've been poking around here a while now, trying to get a better sense of these "type" ideas...thanks to a number of you I've been learning a bit more here and there. Heart has been especially helpful and has suggested ISFp?

The variety of on-line tests that have been suggested to me will usually come up with an ISTJ result, with the ISxx part remaining solidly consistent. I do my best to follow instructions provided...but reviewing type descriptions I find that I just do not correlate entirely with ISTJ, though I believe that I did moreso when I was younger and more reactive.

My sig has results from other tests, though how these might be interpreted through an MBTI framework is beyond my skill.

I'd be happy to get any thoughts you might have on what type I might at least seem to be.

 

[Randomnity]

What doesn't make sense about the ISTJ description, specifically? ISTJs and ISxPs are practically opposite, so comparing what fits from ISFP vs ISTJ might be a good start. F vs T is a little harder to figure out, or so I've seen.

 

[Hirsch63]

Well, it may just be the way that the type is often written about on this forum...here are some random samples from ISTJ descriptions that I do not believe describe me very well:

organized, would rather be friendless than jobless, realistic, observer, clean, does not talk about feelings, finisher, private, does not appreciate strangeness, not adventurous, avoids mistakes, conventional, insensitive to the hardships of others, anti-tattoos, things rules are important, prepares for worst case scenarios, does not accept apologies easily, hard working

"We've always done it this way" is often reason enough for many ISTJs. Threats to time-honored traditions or established organizations (e.g., a "run" on the bank) are the undoing of SJs, and are to be fought at all costs.

Since Fi is turned inward, it is rarely expressed. Perhaps this enables the ISTJ to resolutely accept that "we are all doomed." Otherwise, feeling is inferred, or expressed nonverbally, through eye contact, or an encouraging smile.

...inferior Ne seems to be a major source of, and a natural breeding ground for, stereotypes.

...They may have difficulty showing warmth...Tendency to get involved in "win-lose" conversations...Since ISTJs make decisions using the Thinking function (rather than Feeling), they are not naturally likely to consider their mates feelings and emotions in daily living...They internalize and value the rules and structure of the society in which they live, and disapprove of behaviors that go against these rules....happy to chunk through large amounts of routine work...ISTJ's value for social structure makes them more interested in being social than is true for many Introverts.

General selfish "look after oneself" tendencies
Uses judgement to dismiss other's opinions and perspectives, before really understanding them
May become slave to their routine and "by the book" ways of doing things, to the point that any deviation is completely unacceptable
May have difficulty communicating their thoughts and feelings to anyone

I understand that these descriptions need not be hard and fast. When I read the ISFJ or FP description most of that seems in agreement with me as well...but with a few exceptions such as these ISTJ items above. I am not mindlessly comformed to anything and I often have a great deal of conflict with superiors. I do not have trouble expressing emotion or considering others feelings...

 

[Haphazard]

One seeming misconception: SJs do not mindlessly conform, they mindfully conform. Through personal experience, SJs figure out the way that works best for them. SJs learn through experience the rules of life, written rules but mostly the unwritten, and know that if they stick to these rules, their life will continue moving well, while the NJs are in one corner, going by their best guesses, SPs in another, too busy examining the present to pay attention to the rules of the past, and NPs... well, the NPs are hopeless.

Although, the fact that you find expressing your emotions easily probably means that you're an F. For Ts, once they figure out what they are, it's still usually pretty difficult. Also, on many of the tests, SPs are often typed as SJs because being 'orderly' can be an aesthetic preference of certain SPs, rather than an attempt to be practical or considerate how it is with SJs.

 

[Colors]

Yeah Hirsch, those parts of SJ descriptions don't really sound like real people at ALL. I'd say SJs do follow the "rules"- not in the mindless zombie sort of way, but in the way that the world works in a certain way (for them)- and they manuever under that assumption.

What part of ISTJ and ISFP descriptions *do* speak to you?

 

[Owl]

I like both what Hap and Colors wrote. I'd add that MBTI is like a map. Maps give partial information of the terrain--they're never totally accurate. Whatever Jung, Meyers, and Kiersy may have gotten right is clouded. Find the Key and the legend, then use only what you need to find your bearing and ignore everything else.

 

[Hirsch63]

Thanks, that all seems perfectly reasonable.

Colors, as for ISFP these observations feel familiar to me:

"...Their impulses yearn to be free, and are often loosed when others least expect it. The ISFP who continually represses these impulses feels 'dead inside'..."
- ISFP Profile (TypeLogic)

"...easily disturbed, fears drawing attention to self, prone to confusion, private..."
- Jung Type Descriptions (ISFP) (similarminds.com)

"...excel in the "fine arts,"...an innate sense what fits and what doesn't fit in artistic compositions..."

- The Portrait of the Composer Artisan (Keirsey) "ISFPs are keenly in tune with the way things look, taste, sound, feel and smell. They have a strong aesthetic appreciation for art, and are likely to be artists in some form, because they are unusually gifted at creating and composing things which will strongly affect the senses."
- Portrait of an ISFP (The Personality Page)

"At work, ISFPs contribute by attending to the practical facts relating to the needs of people and all living things in their environments. They can infuse a particular knod of joy into cooperative nature. Because they pay attention to the humanistic aspects of the organization, they act in ways that ensure others' well-being. People enjoy ISFPs because they bring understanding yet adaptability to the realities of their work."

And for ISTJ:

"ISTJs have a keen sense of right and wrong, especially in their area of interest and/or responsibility.
- ISTJ Profile (TypeLogic)

"ISTJs are very loyal, faithful, and dependable. They place great importance on honesty and integrity. While they generally take things very seriously, they also usually have an offbeat sense of humor - Portrait of an ISTJ (The Personality Page)

The Portrait of the Inspector Guardian (Keirsey) "...private, does not appreciate strangeness, not adventurous, not spontaneous, follows the rules..."
- Jung Type Descriptions (ISTJ) (similarminds.com)

"At work, ISTJs believe in thoroughness. A half-finished joy is not a job well done. ISTJs put duty before pleasure. As long as they can fulfil their responsibilities, they feel useful and thereby satisfied. Their work has to count toward something productive. - ISTJ - The Reliant (Lifexplore)


Despite my "artsy" leanings, I can still whip up some powerful ISTJ attitude, usually when I feel wronged and my ability to contain my reactions is overwhelmed by circumstance.

 

[Haphazard]

Despite my "artsy" leanings, I can still whip up some powerful ISTJ attitude, usually when I feel wronged and my ability to contain my reactions is overwhelmed by circumstance.

This seems to be very telling.

ISFPs and ISTJs both share Fi (introverted feeling) and Te (extroverted thinking) functions (if you want to learn more about those, go to cognitiveprocesses.com, they have some pretty quick descriptions). However, for an ISTJ, Te is the second function (Si, Te, Fi, Ne), and for an ISFP, it's the fourth (Fi, Se, Ni, Te).

A lot of the things you picked out of the ISTJ attitude are also introverted feeling (fiercely loyal, valuing honesty, a sense of right and wrong can be both introverted sensing and introverted feeling, which can be misleading). A lot of SPs are often mistyped as SJs or NTs because the SP descriptions sound very immature when that's not really the case, and a lot of IFPs mistype themselves as ITJs because of the confusion of extroverted thinking.

Extroverted thinking, sorting by outside criteria, which usually creates a very orderly manner of doing things that is easily understandable by others, is the ISTJ's normal mode of operation to the outside world. For an ISFP, it's not, and is much more likely to come out under stress and high pressure. Because how you say this 'ISTJ'-ness only comes out when you feel 'wronged' (which probably has something to do with introverted feeling), it's my guess that it's not one of your primary modes of functioning and rather one of the lower functions, and therefore an SFP.

Or so the theory goes. Umm... if that's too much I can try to break it down.

 

[Hirsch63]

Thanks for this angle...I have to admit, when I do have a blowout it is very cathartic...but that is almost instantly overshadowed by embarassment over the emotional outburst.

I can certainly express what would be understood as positive emotions quite easily and un-selfconciously. Letting go (full expression) of the negative, especially in the presence of others is something I have an aversion to.

This is why I think that the typing could be of use to me. I feel that there is some imbalance in aspects of my life that the MBTI may be useful helping me sort out and channel more productively.

 

[Haphazard]

Thanks for this angle...I have to admit, when I do have a blowout it is very cathartic...but that is almost instantly overshadowed by embarassment over the emotional outburst.

I can certainly express what would be understood as positive emotions quite easily and un-selfconciously. Letting go (full expression) of the negative, especially in the presence of others is something I have an aversion to.

This is why I think that the typing could be of use to me. I feel that there is some imbalance in aspects of my life that the MBTI may be useful helping me sort out and channel more productively.

Well... the thing with tertiary Fi (as ITJs have) is that it doesn't really 'blow out'. From observation, it doesn't really look like an explosion, but more of an implosion, like how buildings look when they collapse from the inside by a demolition team. In other words, it's not pretty, but it doesn't wreak havoc on the world like Te does.

For ITJs emotional expression of all types is very indirect. It's definitely there, but it's not obviously put out for the world to see.

I've been trying to balance out my life too -- I think MBTI can be helpful with that, but because I've still got raging hormones to deal with, I don't know how effective this will be.

Then there's always the possibility of ISFJ. I don't know. I'm really guessing ISFP here.

 

[Ivy]

It's worth mentioning, I think (though a shallow consideration) that the SPs are called the Artisans. I think you may be more creative than organized, although the two are not exclusive to one another certainly. I can see ISFP for you.

 

[Hirsch63]

It's worth mentioning, I think (though a shallow consideration) that the SPs are called the Artisans. I think you may be more creative than organized, although the two are not exclusive to one another certainly. I can see ISFP for you.

Yeah I can carefully organize something like my tool chest, with lots of little divisions and sliding trays...and then just sort or hurl things in there until it is something like organized chaos. My shop is the same way...get it all just the way I like it and then trash it and ruin any chance at improved efficiency. I like to begin a project in a very tidy organized space, but during the focused drive to completion I just lose sight of keeping things "nice"...