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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by gretch View Post
    Oh I couldn't agree more, and you definitely have a point with those annoyances. I was presenting two extremes of character and how one single personality type can vary so greatly- which is very important because there are elements of a human you may attribute to a personality, when you should attribute them to common character. A snake is a snake, an asshole is an asshole, a gentleman a gentleman, and there is no personality based excuse for the mistreatment of another human. There may be misunderstanding because of how we see the world, but if there is no respect, it shows.
    Am I making sense?
    The little niece is only 8 and though I'll try to influence her, she isn't exactly in the best hands. Her fate is her own though. She was being actually quite innocent. Her parents are the sort to push these things onto her, so she feels that she needs to perpetuate. a mess. just a mess.

    What I did want to give you advice for is general to the NT/newbie/ENTJ
    You are going to feel uncomfortable and probably a little attacked in this process. You will probably look at the other types and compare those with yours, then the people you know will be typed by you and you will feel that you have a real grip on it all. You will be superior, and your ego will be validated because as an ENTJ, they will tell you you are special, and so you are, but just as all the rest. There is no one above, and no one below, just a bunch of people that are alien to you.
    There are different "smarts", and if you are secure in yourself you will let go and let it all happen. You will be wrong about the types of a lot of your friends. -at least, you won't understand all the nooks of their types. Take your time. Be aware that it will change some of your perceptions for the better if you let it.
    I do type people I know, I'm right for the information I know, as I don't know the people I know well. When I take new info in, I may re-type them if I see it fit. So I do agree with what you've said about being wrong or right.

    In regards to "special," I do tend to be called intelligent online; some people also ask my age or what I do for a living when I say something "odd." Offline, I don't get to know many people. Or know many, for that matter.

  2. #62
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    @Arkigos I was talking about "Lost" today and I had a thought: maybe you meant something like that by your description of how Ps act? The "everything has it's own place" and "universal harmony" parts... "You can change what's gonna happen, the universe has everything set already" and "everything happens for a reason." Although that sounds very constricting... If you have seen Lost, I'm thinking Season 3 here, Desmond's predictions about Charlie's death. "You can't change it" is implied as well.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    @Arkigos I was talking about "Lost" today and I had a thought: maybe you meant something like that by your description of how Ps act? The "everything has it's own place" and "universal harmony" parts... "You can change what's gonna happen, the universe has everything set already" and "everything happens for a reason." Although that sounds very constricting... If you have seen Lost, I'm thinking Season 3 here, Desmond's predictions about Charlie's death. "You can't change it" is implied as well.
    How you worded that strikes me in a very NJ way (to me, I may be biased). A connection, a vision, an interpretation occurred to you and you internalized it to some constructive conclusion. This is totally Ni: well-formed (though sometimes subjective) abstract connections.

    Sometimes NTPs feel this way.. but not as a rule. Our trust in natural order sometimes leads us to the conclusion of inevitability.. and NTPs may act this way in certain situations. However, philosophically we may not believe in it....

    You may see an NTP working on that level, though... thinking in that way. Sitting there debating in your own mind whether future events are perfectly deductible given perfect knowledge or not? This is a pretty stereotypical NTP musing (though probably not exclusive). Either way I think it denotes a lack of desire to impose our will on the structures of reality... but rather to understand them and document them. Einstein is a great example of an INTP... his goal was simply to correctly see what exists through proper categorizations. His ego was not tied up in the vision or interpretation... but rather in the comprehension.

    I guess that is why NTP is sometimes seen as Deconstructive while NTJ is seen as Constructive... Ni Te seeks to find or create order in the world by creating connections between things to build up to a hidden Truth.. while Ti Ne seeks to break down connections and isolate concepts from one another to find raw Truth. I am pretty sure this is consistent with the functions.

    This is hard to describe. But a good example is how we are both approaching this. I am stripping down and organizing the crap out all these ideas. This goes here and this goes there. Constantly defining terms and pulling things apart (without judging them) in the belief that once everything is organized, the natural truth will reveal itself.

    You should be trying to find connections between what I say and other things you've heard or encountered (external evidence or similar situations) to construct a unified conclusion. I don't totally understand this approach but I do know it's not like mine.

    Totally opposite ways of thinking.

    arkigos = {
    mbti_type: INTP,
    cog_funcs: INTP.get_cog_funcs(),
    political_slogan: 'The INTP .... who cares!',
    influences: ['Socrates', 'Jesus', 'Descartes', 'John Stuart Mill', 'Kurt Cobain'],
    interests: ['History', 'Programming', 'Philosophy', 'Typing', 'Advocacy of the Devil'],
    alignment: neutral_good,
    }

  4. #64
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    @Arkigos Interesting. I have never came upon a conclusion that something is inevitable, impossible, predetermined, etc.. I do not believe in absolute truths or rules too. I believe that everything is random and therefore everything can be changed, which also means that the future cannot be predicted. The future that depends on people, I do predict quite often and it often comes true unless there's some unpredicted external event. But that's gathering information, it's not set that it's going to happen. Up until now, I always thought that this was a thing of particular F types, not NP types.

    I would never believe (unless somehow proven repeatedly (somehow means undeniable proof)) in things like "island talks to me," "he will die whatever you do," "you cannot change the future," "i had a dream about someone 100km away dying and he died," "you are meat ********," "this is the only way," "it is good/bad and cannot be bad/good under any circumstances," "this is THE truth," "everything happens for a reason," "everything is connected," "there is harmony as in Karma, etc.,", etc.. Since proof that would convince me would have to deny any other possibility that is more likely and show that that way is how it is, we can say that it is impossible to prove to me that any of those ideas are true. I see them as nonsensical. If I was waiting for a bus and someone would start telling me that it's true, my first thought would be "damn idiot..." I'm not being a dick here - that would be my first thought. If I'd choose to discuss (discuss, not say "YOU'RE WRONG!") the particular subject with him, he may prove to be smart but have an idea that I see as idiotic, then my first thought would become "smart guy but he's got real stupid ideas... I wonder where he got them from."

    One more thought in regards to the topic. A family member of mine truly hates anybody different for no apparent reason. The other days we've seen Jews at the supermarket, some time ago a black dude walking by, Chinese people... Every time that happens, I hear the person badmouthing them. Didn't say anything about the Jews though, but the facial expression was full of disgust and anger, so I asked what's up. The same person also threats people he thinks are stupid very differently. Different body language, facial expression, tone of voice, wording, intentions... I do not do that, even if I know for a fact that the person is really stupid. I talk to people the same. Unfortunately, every single one of them have asked me what I've just said at least a couple of times, due to me using "fancy" words unintentionally. Other than that, my wording, intentions, expressions, tone of voice, etc. is the same, whether I'm talking to a professor or someone who thinks that computers are "evil."

  5. #65
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    Addition to the ENTJ suggestion:

    When people ask me for an advice, my main goal is not to give them an advice but to find out what they think for my personal curiosity. I don't tell them what to do, I ask questions. I genuinely don't care what they're gonna do. I may tell them what I'd do if I want to end the conversation and the person didn't get my last cue, but that's the closest I get to telling people how they should act... Assuming that their decision is not affecting me, if it does, depending on the situation, I may convince the person to act the way I want him to act.

    I'm not sure if that's very ENTJ, or even if that's a J thing to do.

    P.S. It's odd how I sometimes get these thoughts related to a particular topic. I believe it's the second time I'm double-posting in this thread due to that reason.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    First and foremost - feel free to ask any questions.

    I have always thought I am INTP, liked ENTPs, wanted to be INTJ, thought ENTJs are stupid. Reasons, respectively: Personality tests said so; they are fun, deduced from the movie character "Iron Man"; they achieve something; in the movies they are presented as those spitting fat guys, cleaning sweat from their foreheads and ordering everyone around to do everything. However, I have investigated more about the types recently, and I've found out that my information about the types wasn't all that well presented, including INTPs. I am even in doubt of what type I am!

    I think this problem is partly here because I haven't had much experience yet. I'm 21, all I did was finish high-school. I don't have a job because they job market can offer me jobs like carrying crates or working the cash register in a supermarket and I'm not up for that. I didn't go to college because we had no money to pay for it. I didn't do good in school because I wasn't interested in the out-dated, non-English and pointless subjects presented there, I might have spend 8 hours studying throughout 12 years of school, I haven't ever read a book appointed by the literature class, I have also skipped school quite a lot, especially in latter grades. In short, my grades were either very low or very high, rarely I got something in the middle, and so my end result was very average, which meant me not getting free scholarship. Most people in my city are either emotionally-driven, tradition and respect-driven or elitists (you have no money, you're inferior to us). The latter is relatively rare. I also do not like partying, getting drunk, using drugs, so I have almost nothing in common with most people and I haven't found a friend or a bunch of friends with whom I would have something in common. I wouldn't mind hanging out with a bunch of people if I was in a good physical shape to confront their irrational thinking and get into rationally driven arguments with them, but I like my health too much, considering most people are rather athletic and primal. What I wanted to say is that I have little experience interacting with people, however I do have imagination and I'm able to determine what would be the most likely scenario. I can also relate to movies, therefore I will be relating to situations portrayed in various movies when describing myself.

    So! Now that we have cleared the basis of my description, let's get to the actual description, shall we?



    I am generally nice to people when they are nice to me (post office worker, when asking questions and all), a clerk at a coffee store when buying coffee, etc.. However, I can't stand when someone is directing something illogical or irrational towards me, enforcing an opinion, making a decision that involves me, telling me to do something, etc.. I question those things, I often am sarcastic and very argumentative. Sometimes I switch sides to have fun and see if the person notices and what he would say, and I win the argument 99% of the time, even if I may not know much about the subject (this is a real life experience). If interacting with someone unknown and the approach is nice, I may even appear a little nicer version of Iron Man. When I was younger and I knew the people I was talking to (I was VERY shy, my parents didn't expose me to any kids for their ESFJ-based reasons), people used to say that I "don't look for words in my pocket," which I think means that I can talk my way out of anything, with which I do agree based on the little experience I had.

    I view the world very logically, I do not run it through any value systems or emotions in my mind, I just view it realistically. In situations requiring judgement, I consider all the possibilities; while unrealistic possibilities come to my mind, I do think and decline them realizing that that is an unlikely outcome. When I'm exposed to a new situation, I make a judgement when I receive the first very few facts and then tailor it according to the information flow that I get from the unraveling events; my judgement is dynamic, although it is often correct before I gather all that additional information.

    I have mentioned that I do not like parties, getting drunk, using drugs, I also don't like sports or any physical activity. I have also mentioned that I dislike people making decisions under the influence of tradition and strict rules or emotion, as I like rationality. I can talk to them, but I get annoyed rather quickly by their lack of logic. I don't know if that means that I'm an introvert, because I do not mind talking to people with similar interests. In fact, I absolutely love sharing my opinion and the flow of various possibilities I get to my mind. When I was in highschool, I used to sometimes hang out with this ExFx guy. He got a new job as a night shift clerk and I went to check it out, I was bored because my PC was slow and I couldn't do what required resources, and that was what i wanted to do at the moment. I was also surprised that he got the job, as he's a pothead who's moto is "have fun, die young." After I arrived, I have spend probably around 3 hours talking, non-stop, about various stuff, software, future of the computers, world war 2, apocalypse, light future, some movie, games, hardware, you name it. He barely opened his mouth, and he looked interested, as I was shooting creative and unique (at least to me) ideas. I stopped when he was falling asleep because it's a nightshift and it's his first day. I probably would've talked for another 2 hours. I also would like to talk to a group of people about things like that (intellectual conversations, theorizing, etc.), or maybe even in front of an audience.

    This is my ideal future: an interactive big house in which I can fit a lot of stuff, including a server room; a quality car that i like; a bunch of computers, hardware and other stuff like that; a job that makes my ideas see the world, like a software company or a video game company where I could manage the team and make sure that what they are doing is the software or game how I want it to look like in a non-despotic way how people seem to say most companies are managing such things; either no girlfriend (not wife!) or a girlfriend who completely understands me and doesn't do illogical things, but also can respond when I'm talking to her in a somewhat minorily emotional way; no pets; enough money to buy what I want; no travels; possibly funding some big project or working as a side-project on one myself (that I am interested in, not that benefits the humanity).

    I see myself as brutally honest (unless there is serious consequences, like getting hit in the face) guy, who has very high yet realistic standards. Someone who has a lot of ideas and is motivated by the need to get them out of his head to the real world. Someone who is nice as long as people are not being irrational or stupid. Someone who prefers being sarcastic and likes irony but knows the limits and mostly predicts actions of the others in certain situations. Someone who is able to see things in both light and dark sight, with great analytical skills. Someone with little friends due to the differences of logic/emotion/tradition. Someone who likes arguing and winning the arguments. Someone who likes talking about his ideas and both realistic and unrealistic (utopian and chaotic, apocalyptic) possibilities. Someone who could manipulate someone to benefit himself if needs be, however prefers to be honest. Someone who respects individuality and strives for freedom (not answering to someone else or rules). Someone who likes figuring things out. Someone who likes change and is open to new ideas.

    My ultimate life goal is to satisfy my needs, which is equivalent to live an interesting life.

    I guess I covered enough, though I am confident that I have missed quite a few things.
    INTP. When an NTJ writes, each sentence is very pointed.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    INTP. When an NTJ writes, each sentence is very pointed.
    What do you mean by "pointed?" Could you give an example or a comparison?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    What do you mean by "pointed?" Could you give an example or a comparison?
    They say things very efficiently and with a lot of confidence. The overall effect is of someone who you would not even try to argue with, not necessarilly because they are right just because they are not only 100% sure, but very sharp about it.

    This is the exact opposite impression I get from your posts in this thread!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    They say things very efficiently and with a lot of confidence. The overall effect is of someone who you would not even try to argue with, not necessarilly because they are right just because they are not only 100% sure, but very sharp about it.

    This is the exact opposite impression I get from your posts in this thread!
    What about other threads? If I was sure about my type, I wouldn't have created this thread in the first place. I'm sure that I'm an NT, but I'm not sure about the other two letters.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    What about other threads? If I was sure about my type, I wouldn't have created this thread in the first place. I'm sure that I'm an NT, but I'm not sure about the other two letters.
    I'm not just talking about your type-related question, but the general air of your post int his thread. Whatsmore I was brought here by reading your sig after reading another thread, at which point I thought "I bet he's INTP, let me verify that".

    NTJ's are short, sharp and to the point. Even when they ask a question, they are very specific, and not speculative.

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