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  1. #51
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    I figured that I'm driven by the desire to express my ideas and get everything there is from them. Whether in a book, or more likely in a format that would reach more people AND would benefit me monetarily. Not because "I want more," by the way, as it's portrayed often in various works (movies, books, etc.). Most of my ideas are different from what you hear anywhere, in other words, unique. Some of them are small, some of them are big, but my main drive is to express them. HOWEVER, while expressing them is the main drive, I wouldn't allow anyone to use the idea (don't mix that with what the idea has to offer, I'm talking about the main idea here).

  2. #52
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    The problem here is that we have not properly delineated the difference between NP and NJ. I am now fairly confident of which you are.

    Confident because you have a bad algorithm... and confident because I don't think you will care.

    To accomplish this task, I am going to have to channel David Keirsey for the duration of this post and focus on some words. May his spirit be with me.

    The NJ orders the world around them and the NP organizes it. The importance is the word Order and Organize. To Order is Constructive and to Organize is Deconstructive. The Organizer does not judge... it merely categorizes and processes. The world sees the Organizer as an informative consultant. The Orderer judges the world and exerts its will upon the world. The world sees the Orderer as a critic and an overlord/leader.

    The goal of the Orderer and the Organizer are different. The Orderer seeks for the world to make sense and to be in its best state. The Orderer does not trust the natural order of the world. And who is to deduce what constitutes 'sense' and what is the best state? The Orderer, of course - a pure will. The Organizer seeks for everything in the world to have it's place and to do what it does best, seeking not to manipulate the natural order of the world, but to discover it and tap into it. 'Sense' and the best state of the world already exist, they say, hidden by ignorance. The Organizer feels they are incapable of exerting their will upon the world. The notion is absurd. The Organizer is simply a vessel - a pure mind.

    Which are you?

    arkigos = {
    mbti_type: INTP,
    cog_funcs: INTP.get_cog_funcs(),
    political_slogan: 'The INTP .... who cares!',
    influences: ['Socrates', 'Jesus', 'Descartes', 'John Stuart Mill', 'Kurt Cobain'],
    interests: ['History', 'Programming', 'Philosophy', 'Typing', 'Advocacy of the Devil'],
    alignment: neutral_good,
    }

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkigos View Post
    The problem here is that we have not properly delineated the difference between NP and NJ. I am now fairly confident of which you are.

    Confident because you have a bad algorithm... and confident because I don't think you will care.

    To accomplish this task, I am going to have to channel David Keirsey for the duration of this post and focus on some words. May his spirit be with me.

    The NJ orders the world around them and the NP organizes it. The importance is the word Order and Organize. To Order is Constructive and to Organize is Deconstructive. The Organizer does not judge... it merely categorizes and processes. The world sees the Organizer as an informative consultant. The Orderer judges the world and exerts its will upon the world. The world sees the Orderer as a critic and an overlord/leader.

    The goal of the Orderer and the Organizer are different. The Orderer seeks for the world to make sense and to be in its best state. The Orderer does not trust the natural order of the world. And who is to deduce what constitutes 'sense' and what is the best state? The Orderer, of course - a pure will. The Organizer seeks for everything in the world to have it's place and to do what it does best, seeking not to manipulate the natural order of the world, but to discover it and tap into it. 'Sense' and the best state of the world already exist, they say, hidden by ignorance. The Organizer feels they are incapable of exerting their will upon the world. The notion is absurd. The Organizer is simply a vessel - a pure mind.

    Which are you?
    The world is at it's best state - I wonder how INTPs agree with that. They hate the, what they call "S-world." But I'm gonna go with this and reply to your post.

    While I do understand the world, reasons behind actions and events, etc., however I do not agree with most of them. While I can tap into the world, I don't like doing it, because I like expressing myself and I like quality. Listening to someone else, in most cases means less quality as things aren't done my way, which equals to lower quality of the procedure and likely to outcome.

    Example for understanding: I can understand why my grandpa gave away a part of this flat to our neighbors when they were buying the place: he likes giving, likes being liked, likes making other people happy, doesn't want conflicts that may make other people unhappy, is a Christian, is humble, etc.. However, I do not agree with his decision, I don't like that fact that now, when we're about to sell it, I'm gonna get a couple thousand dollars less.

    Example for "tapping:" I can pretend to be someone else if I want to, and new people would believe that I'm that guy, whoever it is. However, I do not like it, therefore I don't do it. Exception is if there's benefit for me, and I'm talking huge benefit: I wouldn't pretend to be a nice and loyal worker for a year to get a small raise or something like that.

    Example for the "aren't done my way" part: Many people are very careless and don't do things the best they can, or their best sucks. For example, my family members get their hair in almost every meal, therefore if I was to choose to order food, make it myself or let them make it, my first choice would be to order it, second make it myself. Another example is if I had say a game server, I wouldn't allow anyone else to manage it. The closest they would get is to call me. Unless they can obey the rules I gave them to follow (and of course not stupid, as judgement is needed here).

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    The world is at it's best state - I wonder how INTPs agree with that. They hate the, what they call "S-world." But I'm gonna go with this and reply to your post.
    Sure... we actually do tend to be quite at peace with the natural orders of the world. We seek to understand them utterly but do not typically seek to impose our wills on them. There is a certain optimism in the NTP... we tend to trust that once we figure everything out, pure understanding/knowledge, we will find everything has its own Order and we can make graphs describing it.

    Then NTJ process is to constantly churn through externalized analysis to inform internalized abstract interpretations. This is, almost by definition, exerting ones Genius or Will upon the world as you logically perceive it. Critique to determine a better way (your way) - even if only in your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    While I do understand the world, reasons behind actions and events, etc., however I do not agree with most of them. While I can tap into the world, I don't like doing it, because I like expressing myself and I like quality. Listening to someone else, in most cases means less quality as things aren't done my way, which equals to lower quality of the procedure and likely to outcome.



    Example for understanding: I can understand why my grandpa gave away a part of this flat to our neighbors when they were buying the place: he likes giving, likes being liked, likes making other people happy, doesn't want conflicts that may make other people unhappy, is a Christian, is humble, etc.. However, I do not agree with his decision, I don't like that fact that now, when we're about to sell it, I'm gonna get a couple thousand dollars less.

    Example for "tapping:" I can pretend to be someone else if I want to, and new people would believe that I'm that guy, whoever it is. However, I do not like it, therefore I don't do it. Exception is if there's benefit for me, and I'm talking huge benefit: I wouldn't pretend to be a nice and loyal worker for a year to get a small raise or something like that.

    Example for the "aren't done my way" part: Many people are very careless and don't do things the best they can, or their best sucks. For example, my family members get their hair in almost every meal, therefore if I was to choose to order food, make it myself or let them make it, my first choice would be to order it, second make it myself. Another example is if I had say a game server, I wouldn't allow anyone else to manage it. The closest they would get is to call me. Unless they can obey the rules I gave them to follow (and of course not stupid, as judgement is needed here).

    You conceptually misunderstood 'tapping' LOL and were right on the dot with Ordering.

    External critical analysis to inform internal connections and 'Genius'. Your highly critical and ordered view of the aspects of your external world that you do or might care about is distinctly NJ.

    An xNTP doesn't work like that at all. Externally looking for connections and patterns to inform internal analysis is the hallmark of NTP. This means NTP are rarely seen as critics, though we can be critical... we can hardly be bothered to even think about externalized criticism when there is a natural order to be uncovered and defined.

    I have no hope whatsoever that you will be able to properly differentiate. I am fairly certain you are an xNTJ (tentative guess ENTJ) and a narcissist. Take that as you will.

    arkigos = {
    mbti_type: INTP,
    cog_funcs: INTP.get_cog_funcs(),
    political_slogan: 'The INTP .... who cares!',
    influences: ['Socrates', 'Jesus', 'Descartes', 'John Stuart Mill', 'Kurt Cobain'],
    interests: ['History', 'Programming', 'Philosophy', 'Typing', 'Advocacy of the Devil'],
    alignment: neutral_good,
    }

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkigos View Post
    I am fairly certain you are an xNTJ (tentative guess ENTJ) and a narcissist. Take that as you will.
    @Typoz
    Attachment 8262
    Oh you are an ENTJ who would have guessed!

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkigos View Post
    Sure... we actually do tend to be quite at peace with the natural orders of the world. We seek to understand them utterly but do not typically seek to impose our wills on them. There is a certain optimism in the NTP... we tend to trust that once we figure everything out, pure understanding/knowledge, we will find everything has its own Order and we can make graphs describing it.

    Then NTJ process is to constantly churn through externalized analysis to inform internalized abstract interpretations. This is, almost by definition, exerting ones Genius or Will upon the world as you logically perceive it. Critique to determine a better way (your way) - even if only in your head.
    I mean that you meant that you trust in your opinion. You wouldn't actually trust an untrustworthy person after you figured that out, would you? Or an algorithm generating random numbers to generate 65. I think that's kinda... Obvious? Unless you're very insecure, then you may doubt your opinion. Or perhaps you're in an odd situation like me - I often figure something out (in this context, usually about the future), and there's a few people telling me otherwise, providing me with valid proof, etc., then I have to re-evaluate my claim, well... It's proof, right? In the end, I'm right in most cases though.

    Anyway, whatever you meant, I don't see complaining (which is common for INTPs) as peace. I naturally understand things, often I don't even have to think about it for too long even if it's a rather difficult case, so understanding is the level below imposing. If the thing has an impact on me of course, as in the example in the post above. I can describe it, I understand how it "has" a place there, I can explain why it has a place there. I can offer 20 better solutions for it and if it concerns me, I am up for "correcting" the "problem."

    Don't xNTPs think of better ways to do things as well? At least in their heads.

    You conceptually misunderstood 'tapping' LOL and were right on the dot with Ordering.

    External critical analysis to inform internal connections and 'Genius'. Your highly critical and ordered view of the aspects of your external world that you do or might care about is distinctly NJ.

    An xNTP doesn't work like that at all. Externally looking for connections and patterns to inform internal analysis is the hallmark of NTP. This means NTP are rarely seen as critics, though we can be critical... we can hardly be bothered to even think about externalized criticism when there is a natural order to be uncovered and defined.

    I have no hope whatsoever that you will be able to properly differentiate. I am fairly certain you are an xNTJ (tentative guess ENTJ) and a narcissist. Take that as you will.
    I am critical unless my high standards (which I also have for myself) are met, or if there is a good reason why they are not met. I wouldn't talk to a boy because I thought he has potential or something like that that's shown in various movies, for example. Since there is criticism, that means that something's not as good as it could be, which is when the order comes. Today I witnessed someone taking out slices of pizza from the oven, and man that was nasty! The person has folded the pizza slices, mixed them with one another, turned it over, etc., it was painful to watch. I just took my own pizza slices after the person was done with giving the slices for everybody else. I took them nice and clean, without turning them over, folding them or any other problems.

    I'm analyzing plenty. It happens naturally, this is how one makes his opinions - he analyzes. I'm not sure what you mean then, especially when you mention that NTPs can be critical. The natural order you're talking about is enforced and imposed by the J types, and frankly, it's rather easy to understand. For me at least, but I assume it's the same for any NT type.

    @RaptorWizard I have absolutely no idea what you meant to mean.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    I mean that you meant that you trust in your opinion. You wouldn't actually trust an untrustworthy person after you figured that out, would you? Or an algorithm generating random numbers to generate 65. I think that's kinda... Obvious? Unless you're very insecure, then you may doubt your opinion. Or perhaps you're in an odd situation like me - I often figure something out (in this context, usually about the future), and there's a few people telling me otherwise, providing me with valid proof, etc., then I have to re-evaluate my claim, well... It's proof, right? In the end, I'm right in most cases though.
    What does this have to do with trusting natural order? Nothing and is therefore pointless. Doubting ones own opinion may indicate insecurity for an NTJ but totally quintessential for NTP, who are more natural philosophers. For example, Socrates, the first known INTP(?) most famously said "...all I know is that I know nothing..." This quote resonates with NTP and is indicative of our trust in natural order and lack of pride or uptightness in our N, as we are Ne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    Anyway, whatever you meant, I don't see complaining (which is common for INTPs) as peace. I naturally understand things, often I don't even have to think about it for too long even if it's a rather difficult case, so understanding is the level below imposing. If the thing has an impact on me of course, as in the example in the post above. I can describe it, I understand how it "has" a place there, I can explain why it has a place there. I can offer 20 better solutions for it and if it concerns me, I am up for "correcting" the "problem."
    INTPs are not commonly complainers. We are correctors and jesters. Not unlike I am doing to you now. That is because we are more prideful and uptight about process than genius. NTPs and NTJs will use similar language but it comes down to the fact that NTJ is more likely to be prideful about their Ni where NTP will be more prideful of their Ti. For example, I am quite proud right now that my logical processes are much better than yours (whether that is true or not) where you should be more prideful about your conclusions. I couldn't care less if I am right or wrong as long as my process is sound where you should be less concerned about the process as long as the conclusion is correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    Don't xNTPs think of better ways to do things as well? At least in their heads.
    Yes, but not in the way you conceive it. We are concerned about correct algorithms/processes more than correct ideas/conclusions. Ti Ne (tight with algorithm, open with ideas) vs Te Ni (tight with ideas, open with algorithms). Which is why NTJ will accuse the NTP of having the wrong conclusions/ideas (as you are doing to me) and the NTP will accuse the NTJ of faulty logical processes (as I am doing to you). Interestingly, we are both often correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    I am critical unless my high standards (which I also have for myself) are met, or if there is a good reason why they are not met. I wouldn't talk to a boy because I thought he has potential or something like that that's shown in various movies, for example. Since there is criticism, that means that something's not as good as it could be, which is when the order comes. Today I witnessed someone taking out slices of pizza from the oven, and man that was nasty! The person has folded the pizza slices, mixed them with one another, turned it over, etc., it was painful to watch. I just took my own pizza slices after the person was done with giving the slices for everybody else. I took them nice and clean, without turning them over, folding them or any other problems.
    I read this three times. You are, perhaps inadvertently?, just defining criticism as we all know it to be. I miss the point of defining what is already defined. Your way was better, yay! Glib criticism to support your internal sense of genius.

    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    I'm analyzing plenty. It happens naturally, this is how one makes his opinions - he analyzes. I'm not sure what you mean then, especially when you mention that NTPs can be critical. The natural order you're talking about is enforced and imposed by the J types, and frankly, it's rather easy to understand. For me at least, but I assume it's the same for any NT type.
    Yes, like all T types, you analyze. I, like all T types, am critical. You are not conceptualizing or delineating Te vs Ti: external, open, flippant, glib T vs internal, closed, thorough, careful T. Natural order, at least according to NTPs, is NOT easy to understand. This is why Socrates resonates with us. This is also why NTPs are often said to be haunted by an intangible fear of failure. We know we don't understand enough to have a real sense of security.

    arkigos = {
    mbti_type: INTP,
    cog_funcs: INTP.get_cog_funcs(),
    political_slogan: 'The INTP .... who cares!',
    influences: ['Socrates', 'Jesus', 'Descartes', 'John Stuart Mill', 'Kurt Cobain'],
    interests: ['History', 'Programming', 'Philosophy', 'Typing', 'Advocacy of the Devil'],
    alignment: neutral_good,
    }

  8. #58
    Senior Member gretch's Avatar
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    I admit that I didn't read the whole thread or anything-it's long, but I got a few bits here and there to see that there is a sway that you may be an ENTJ. I have been typing for an awfully awfully long time. (12) The first thing I tell those I type is that their job in the beginning is to gather as much information as they possibly can, allow people to inform them and give them opinions. Ultimately though, there is not one person that knows you better than you know yourself. Therefore, the trick, or the essential point is obviously to have the most accurate information possible, because no one will be able to type you but you. Some may be right (or they be wrong, or half right or ...anything) but you won't actually believe, or it won't be useful to you until you have busted your tail to acquire the knowledge on your own.
    This is not me saying anything about you personally, of course. I always have this little chat. Other people can only have so much input. The end.

    So that being said, remember that I am just an informer -to your ultimate goal of finding your type. And it's amazing when you really get in sync with it, down to the very meat. It's been a huge game changer in the way I view humanity as I'll describe below.

    Typing does not deal with character, morality, or level of intelligence:
    Character:
    There are three prominent ENTJ's in my life, family level ones. My brother-in-law, his daughter (my niece), and my Mentor that ironically enough got me on this whole kick. That mentor is, quite simply the greatest man, apart from my amazing husband (INTP) I have ever known in my life. His intellect is astounding, he wrote tons of scholarly articles on typing as well as for psychology magazines. He made his fortune in finance, He's prudent, wise, and every person in the room pauses when he speaks to hear him. I love him, as he plucked me out in my family full of S's (he was a college friend of my father's) where I felt odd and out of place, and told me what I was and helped me find purpose. He has been an enormous influence in my life-one of the greatest I would say.
    My brother in law: is the most awful human being in the world. He is the same personality type and his methods and TYPE of intelligence are the same. But he is awful. He's dishonest and cruel. When in a room, if people aren't listening to him alone speak he displays active boredom, and when others speak he glosses over as though he think you don't know how much he is dismissing you. He thinks his intelligence is the greatest thing in the world and often regales us with stories aggrandizing himself. He is a perfectionist and SCREAMS at his children at the slightest infraction. He always claims that he just doesn't understand how other people can be stupid (when they don't agree with him, or make small traffic mishaps etc) But when he happens to do such, it is somehow somebody else's fault. He has devastated my parents numerous times because of his imaginative sense of justice, tearing the family apart and hurting my mom and dad like nothing else.

    The difference between them is illuminating. My mentor once confided in me that he found the weakness of his character sometime in his twenties, He became aware that his need to be superior, and prove it so was the flaw. Truthfully, knowing my brother-in-law, he wants to be my mentor, to have that deference. But there there is no love offered where none is obtained-unless there is an abusive element.

    My 8 year old ENTJ niece spent a car ride with me while she was in town tell me of her activities: tall, like her parents and awkward , like any N -she wanted to impress. "My friend is better at gymnastics, but I'm better at karate." "My sister is always copying me." (becoming legitimately angry and derisive as her sensitive sister could hear.) " It's not easy being the smartest girl in my class."
    I told her: "Eva, my love. It is lonely to be the smartest girl, trust me I know But, the thing with you is that you will never have to prove that you are the smartest -and you will often be the best at many things. The trick for you will be to learn how to make friends."
    A man is not idle because he is absorbed in thought. There is visible labour and there is invisible labour.
    .
    -Victor Hugo

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkigos View Post
    What does this have to do with trusting natural order? Nothing and is therefore pointless. Doubting ones own opinion may indicate insecurity for an NTJ but totally quintessential for NTP, who are more natural philosophers. For example, Socrates, the first known INTP(?) most famously said "...all I know is that I know nothing..." This quote resonates with NTP and is indicative of our trust in natural order and lack of pride or uptightness in our N, as we are Ne.
    Then I'm unsure what you meant. Do you mean that according to NTPs there's some hidden big truth about everything that needs to be uncovered? If so, my first thought is: "who has created that truth?" Here the problem is that I've trouble comprehending the term "natural truth." Can you explain it to me?

    Insecurity for an NTJ even if he's provided with valid proof to counter his claims, especially if the claims are about what's going to happen? If the proof wasn't valid, then I'd agree with you.

    INTPs are not commonly complainers. We are correctors and jesters. Not unlike I am doing to you now. That is because we are more prideful and uptight about process than genius. NTPs and NTJs will use similar language but it comes down to the fact that NTJ is more likely to be prideful about their Ni where NTP will be more prideful of their Ti. For example, I am quite proud right now that my logical processes are much better than yours (whether that is true or not) where you should be more prideful about your conclusions. I couldn't care less if I am right or wrong as long as my process is sound where you should be less concerned about the process as long as the conclusion is correct.
    Perhaps we should take this whole discussion and convert it to examples? Let me begin with my time at school and the quote above then.

    At school I used to solve various things backwards to get the answer, especially in maths. Or if not backwards, I only had the answer which didn't came from anything on paper or the formulas that others were using. Teachers had trouble rating my tests as they usually didn't have any calculations, or if other subjects - explanations. For example native language - I could never explain why the word has to have Y instead if I. I used to leave the explanation fields empty. I could never see the point in learning what others were using (formulas and rules?) to get the same answers.

    However, I think that this kind of problem solving is present for N types, including INTPs.

    Yes, but not in the way you conceive it. We are concerned about correct algorithms/processes more than correct ideas/conclusions. Ti Ne (tight with algorithm, open with ideas) vs Te Ni (tight with ideas, open with algorithms). Which is why NTJ will accuse the NTP of having the wrong conclusions/ideas (as you are doing to me) and the NTP will accuse the NTJ of faulty logical processes (as I am doing to you). Interestingly, we are both often correct.
    Interesting. Can you make an example out of this?

    I read this three times. You are, perhaps inadvertently?, just defining criticism as we all know it to be. I miss the point of defining what is already defined. Your way was better, yay! Glib criticism to support your internal sense of genius.
    An ISFJ I know has his standards focused on how you must follow his directions when he tells you to even if you have a much better and efficient way of doing what he tells you to do. That's his standards, that's not "high" standards. That's "obedience" standards.

    Yes, like all T types, you analyze. I, like all T types, am critical. You are not conceptualizing or delineating Te vs Ti: external, open, flippant, glib T vs internal, closed, thorough, careful T. Natural order, at least according to NTPs, is NOT easy to understand. This is why Socrates resonates with us. This is also why NTPs are often said to be haunted by an intangible fear of failure. We know we don't understand enough to have a real sense of security.
    I'll leave this for the "examples" instead.

    @gretch

    Your brother-in-law sounds too confident, ignorant and controlling. I think he's like those bosses from the movies; the guys spitting while they shout, using their co-workers in really bad ways, cheating a lot, etc.. Though I'd always thought those were ESTJs...

    As for your niece... Well, I'm always annoyed when people are trying to impress me, and I'm equally annoyed when people brag about themselves. Comparing her to me, I don't brag and I don't try to impress people.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typoz View Post
    Your brother-in-law sounds too confident, ignorant and controlling. I think he's like those bosses from the movies; the guys spitting while they shout, using their co-workers in really bad ways, cheating a lot, etc.. Though I'd always thought those were ESTJs...

    As for your niece... Well, I'm always annoyed when people are trying to impress me, and I'm equally annoyed when people brag about themselves. Comparing her to me, I don't brag and I don't try to impress people.
    Oh I couldn't agree more, and you definitely have a point with those annoyances. I was presenting two extremes of character and how one single personality type can vary so greatly- which is very important because there are elements of a human you may attribute to a personality, when you should attribute them to common character. A snake is a snake, an asshole is an asshole, a gentleman a gentleman, and there is no personality based excuse for the mistreatment of another human. There may be misunderstanding because of how we see the world, but if there is no respect, it shows.
    Am I making sense?
    The little niece is only 8 and though I'll try to influence her, she isn't exactly in the best hands. Her fate is her own though. She was being actually quite innocent. Her parents are the sort to push these things onto her, so she feels that she needs to perpetuate. a mess. just a mess.

    What I did want to give you advice for is general to the NT/newbie/ENTJ
    You are going to feel uncomfortable and probably a little attacked in this process. You will probably look at the other types and compare those with yours, then the people you know will be typed by you and you will feel that you have a real grip on it all. You will be superior, and your ego will be validated because as an ENTJ, they will tell you you are special, and so you are, but just as all the rest. There is no one above, and no one below, just a bunch of people that are alien to you.
    There are different "smarts", and if you are secure in yourself you will let go and let it all happen. You will be wrong about the types of a lot of your friends. -at least, you won't understand all the nooks of their types. Take your time. Be aware that it will change some of your perceptions for the better if you let it.
    A man is not idle because he is absorbed in thought. There is visible labour and there is invisible labour.
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    -Victor Hugo

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