ENFP/INFP

[Eric B]

Now for the Bissel stuff.

The last time I mentioned that article to him, he said he had rethought it, abd was coming out with an "Achilles 2.0", in which those behaviors will be specifically about codependency, or one of those more extreme situations.

I still use it because I just find the observation about the TJ's to be very accurate. They do tend to blame a lot, and it doesn't even have to be a very serious issue. You keep pointing to what others (especially FP's) do, but he didn't say that nobody else ever blamed, or whatever. It's more about who has the inclination to be more quicker in the behavior. (and that doesn't mean that other types can't ever be quick at it for whatever reason).

As for the FP's, he said they "stuffed" their criticisms, not that they never criticize. Just like he said the TP's stuff their emotions, but they burst out with them eventually. That would follow with FP's and criticism. After all, their Feeling judgment is introverted, so I imagine the criticisms would stay inside first, and when values are violated enough, then they will unleash them to the world.

Some of the points you made were interesting. Where did you get those insights from?

 

[Eric B]

A couple random points:

Actually, extraversion and confidence really don't have much to do with each other. The extravert may appear more confident, but many of them can be really quite shy. Likewise, there are plenty of confident introverts. So try not to mix those two up.

But is that behavior more learned or influenced by other causes? As an inborn trait, being "expressive" usually stems from confidence to approach others. Those who are more "reserved" usually have a fear of rejection that drives them to not as readily approach others. Of course, anyone can change their behavior, and go against their natural inclination and develop "confidence". But I was just mentioning in passing how I understood confidence from a temperamental viewpoint.

Actually, I've heard elsewhere that he's an ESTP. But I'm not really sure.

ISFPs always seem to come across quite soft and kind, to me. But of course the level-headed ISFP I know is certainly not the be-all and end-all of that type.

So do you think Rosie is that type? (That's who we were really talking about).

 

[arcticangel02]

But is that behavior more learned or influenced by other causes? As an inborn trait, being "expressive" usually stems from confidence to approach others. Those who are more "reserved" usually have a fear of rejection that drives them to not as readily approach others. Of course, anyone can change their behavior, and go against their natural inclination and develop "confidence". But I was just mentioning in passing how I understood confidence from a temperamental viewpoint.

IMO, an extravert's 'confidence' is very much a learned behaviour. It certainly isn't inborn. Confidence or shyness, as such, stems largely from a knowledge or lack of knowledge about how to proceed in a social situation. A shy person doesn't know if what they say will be taken the wrong way, or they won't be able to respond appropriately to what another person says - the fear of rejection you mention.

The extravert may appear more confident purely because their extraversion has compelled them, at a young age, to go out and socialise, regardless of their confidence or lack thereof. And through that they learn what is appropriate and what is not, and by the time they have reached adulthood, they've already made all the mistakes there are to make and are 'confident' because they know how to proceed. An introvert, who kept mostly to themselves, has not had that experience of making those mistakes early on, may still be shy and uncomfortable around people well into adulthood.

And so, yes, an extravert is more likely to appear confident to the outside world, (especially in late teens/early adulthood when the difference is most apparent) but there is certainly no inborn preference to be more or less confident.

Heck, I'm an example of a shy extravert.

So do you think Rosie is that type? (That's who we were really talking about).

I wouldn't have the faintest clue. I don't really pay her any attention. Just felt like pointing out that maybe the reason Bush seems different to these supposed ISFPs is because he's a different type.


Just randomly, I notice you have a remarkable dedication to this topic for an NP.

 

[Eric B]

IMO, an extravert's 'confidence' is very much a learned behaviour. It certainly isn't inborn. Confidence or shyness, as such, stems largely from a knowledge or lack of knowledge about how to proceed in a social situation. A shy person doesn't know if what they say will be taken the wrong way, or they won't be able to respond appropriately to what another person says - the fear of rejection you mention.

The extravert may appear more confident purely because their extraversion has compelled them, at a young age, to go out and socialise, regardless of their confidence or lack thereof. And through that they learn what is appropriate and what is not, and by the time they have reached adulthood, they've already made all the mistakes there are to make and are 'confident' because they know how to proceed. An introvert, who kept mostly to themselves, has not had that experience of making those mistakes early on, may still be shy and uncomfortable around people well into adulthood.

And so, yes, an extravert is more likely to appear confident to the outside world, (especially in late teens/early adulthood when the difference is most apparent) but there is certainly no inborn preference to be more or less confident.

Heck, I'm an example of a shy extravert.

Well, I guess, we're using "confidence" differently. The compulsion to go out and socialize you refer to as apart of extraversion is what I'm calling "confidence". And introvert does not have that, in having his uncomfortableness around people, which is what I have seen associated with an inborn "fear of rejection".
So the confidence you're describing is purely the learned one.

Just randomly, I notice you have a remarkable dedication to this topic for an NP.

NP's aren't usually dedicated to stuff like this? (It seems the greratest theorists of this stuff, like Keirsey and Berens, are INTP's!
This is Ne heaven, man!

 

[arcticangel02]

Well, I guess, we're using "confidence" differently. The compulsion to go out and socialize you refer to as apart of extraversion is what I'm calling "confidence". And introvert does not have that, in having his uncomfortableness around people, which is what I have seen associated with an inborn "fear of rejection".
So the confidence you're describing is purely the learned one.

Ehh, I disagree with your terminology, but I suppose you can't really argue labels, can you? ^^

NP's aren't usually dedicated to stuff like this? (It seems the greratest theorists of this stuff, like Keirsey and Berens, are INTP's!
This is Ne heaven, man!

Haha, I guess. It is indeed fascinating! I am just very prone to proposing something, getting a bit of feedback and then forgetting all about it for a while and then maybe coming back later on and trying to revive it. If I could be bothered. (Notice the ENFPs in this thread appearing for a while, vanishing for some time and sometimes returning at a later point?)

Actually, there was a thread of seriousness in there somewhere, which I almost forgot about. Which sort of illustrates my point. But anyway, I mean to say that you seem pretty good at keeping the discussion on track and going in a fairly straight line. When I went off-topic and mentioned Bush's type, you pulled it right back to asking if it had anything to do with the topic at hand (Rosanne's type). Ne usually can't help chasing tangents.

This could be a difference between dom-Ne (everything is a potential tangent to be chased down as far as interest allows, regardless of relevance) and aux-Ne (tangents to be happily explored to the edges of framework of argument?), however?

 

[Eric B]

Maybe so, but with me, it also might be a combination of time (to be getting into tangents; but I otherwise could easily get lost in them), plus the fact that I was just interested in what people generally think Rosie's full type is (I only hear that it's an NF).

 

[Gabe]

The last time I mentioned that article to him, he said he had rethought it, abd was coming out with an "Achilles 2.0", in which those behaviors will be specifically about codependency, or one of those more extreme situations.

I still use it because I just find the observation about the TJ's to be very accurate. They do tend to blame a lot, and it doesn't even have to be a very serious issue. You keep pointing to what others (especially FP's) do, but he didn't say that nobody else ever blamed, or whatever. It's more about who has the inclination to be more quicker in the behavior. (and that doesn't mean that other types can't ever be quick at it for whatever reason).

As for the FP's, he said they "stuffed" their criticisms, not that they never criticize. Just like he said the TP's stuff their emotions, but they burst out with them eventually. That would follow with FP's and criticism. After all, their Feeling judgment is introverted, so I imagine the criticisms would stay inside first, and when values are violated enough, then they will unleash them to the world.

Some of the points you made were interesting. Where did you get those insights from?

And what I just described about theoretical physicists happens to some degree almost anywhere in academia.

I don't find the thing about TJ types accurate. You have a very quick imagination, be careful. I could imagine TJs being like that, but probably just because that's such a reinforced stereotype that it makes more sense to people than it should. When I actually think about the TJ types that I know, I don't notice 'blaming' as a particular trait for them. I do know that we live in an extraverted feeling culture, so just about everyone has ears for extraverted thinking criticism, someone like Bissel might not even notice other kinds of criticism for what they are. It wouldn't require any stretch of his imagination to mis-categorize criticisms from the other cognitive processes, it could probably happen pretty 'naturally' in his head since he's already made so many false assumptions about the different type's motives.

For example, "FPs stuff thier criticisms" is an assumption, it's a combination of assuming that because FPs have trouble expressing criticisms in the traditionally recognized format, that they tend not to criticize (total bullshit), and that they must be stuffing, or repressing thier criticisms (more bullshit!).

-'stuffing thier emotions' (again, he automatically assumes that they are repressing emotions) is, if anything, a general thinking type thing or a theorist temperment thing in general. I honestly believe that he put no thought into the 'TPs stuffing thier emotions', and just added it to complete his dichotomy.

-I know (and knew before you mentioned it) that his idea is about the inclination of these types, and what behavior they would go to quickest, I just dont' believe in any of those supposed inclinations.

 

[Eric B]

And what I just described about theoretical physicists happens to some degree almost anywhere in academia.

I don't find the thing about TJ types accurate. You have a very quick imagination, be careful. I could imagine TJs being like that, but probably just because that's such a reinforced stereotype that it makes more sense to people than it should. When I actually think about the TJ types that I know, I don't notice 'blaming' as a particular trait for them.

I do know that we live in an extraverted feeling culture, so just about everyone has ears for extraverted thinking criticism, someone like Bissel might not even notice other kinds of criticism for what they are. It wouldn't require any stretch of his imagination to mis-categorize criticisms from the other cognitive processes, it could probably happen pretty 'naturally' in his head since he's already made so many false assumptions about the different type's motives.

Well; I grew up around them. almost my enire family, apparently. And Te is not my "relief" like it is yours, so perhaps I take the behavior differently than you; hence them seeming to fit "blaming". (and again; he said Version 2.0 was going to make these behaviors more about codependency).

For example, "FPs stuff thier criticisms" is an assumption, it's a combination of assuming that because FPs have trouble expressing criticisms in the traditionally recognized format, that they tend not to criticize (total bullshit), and that they must be stuffing, or repressing thier criticisms (more bullshit!).

-'stuffing thier emotions' (again, he automatically assumes that they are repressing emotions) is, if anything, a general thinking type thing or a theorist temperment thing in general. I honestly believe that he put no thought into the 'TPs stuffing thier emotions', and just added it to complete his dichotomy.

I don't think the "stuffing" is necessarily supposed to be a conscious act, as you appear to be making it seem wth the statement "repressing".

 

[Gabe]

Well; I grew up around them. almost my enire family, apparently. And Te is not my "relief" like it is yours, so perhaps I take the behavior differently than you; hence them seeming to fit "blaming". (and again; he said Version 2.0 was going to make these behaviors more about codependency).
I don't think the "stuffing" is necessarily supposed to be a conscious act, as you appear to be making it seem wth the statement "repressing".

people usually hear blaming when they hear someone use thier 6thfunction, so you might be onto something there. I mean, with domTe teachers, even when they're quite brusk, I usually don't get hurt by that, in fact, I usually enjoy them. On the other hand, when I hear people blast someone for 'innapropriate' behavior, I can get very irritated if it's something I don't consider impotant.

 

[Eric B]

So I was wondering about that. Are NFP's able t deal with STJ power structures (in an overall ESTJ society) better? They just drive me up the wall.
Fe will get on my nerves if I feel the person is being unreasonable. (And sometimes, when dom. it might be backed up with Fi). Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it. But Te (in preferred roles) is the one I have issues with (as much as I may appear to copy it).

 

[arcticangel02]

I don't usually find STJs too hard to get along with, as long as they're mature individuals.

 

[Venom]

IMO, an extravert's 'confidence' is very much a learned behaviour. It certainly isn't inborn. Confidence or shyness, as such, stems largely from a knowledge or lack of knowledge about how to proceed in a social situation. A shy person doesn't know if what they say will be taken the wrong way, or they won't be able to respond appropriately to what another person says - the fear of rejection you mention.

The extravert may appear more confident purely because their extraversion has compelled them, at a young age, to go out and socialise, regardless of their confidence or lack thereof. And through that they learn what is appropriate and what is not, and by the time they have reached adulthood, they've already made all the mistakes there are to make and are 'confident' because they know how to proceed. An introvert, who kept mostly to themselves, has not had that experience of making those mistakes early on, may still be shy and uncomfortable around people well into adulthood.

And so, yes, an extravert is more likely to appear confident to the outside world, (especially in late teens/early adulthood when the difference is most apparent) but there is certainly no inborn preference to be more or less confident.

Heck, I'm an example of a shy extravert.



I wouldn't have the faintest clue. I don't really pay her any attention. Just felt like pointing out that maybe the reason Bush seems different to these supposed ISFPs is because he's a different type.


Just randomly, I notice you have a remarkable dedication to this topic for an NP.

hey i type as an INFP, wonder if you can help me clear up some thoughts....

1. if you believe the development of function "order", i was definitaly a "Ne" child....my two best friends were XNTP, ENFP and we would have what i would call Imagination land Ne ....(come on, we were 10!)

2. I however then hit a point where i started to display the famous, "young INFP temper". and i would get in trouble a lot in grade school for acting out what i felt were wrongs against my Fi (i would just punch the asshole teasing me )....

3. it seems like then i started to follow the "INFP" path of insecurity in public etc....i almost repressed my Ne, because it was made fun of, for being weird....

4. I feel at my best, when im in Ne land...i loved drama, creative writing, fantasy, books of period pieces or far away land, RPGs and improv class. the only places i felt welcomed to let the Ne go wild!

5. I actaully feel at my worst, when i wallow in Fi. well i mean, i like it...but its more like a prison of masochism. Ill recluse from the world, put on "deep or sad music..." and reflect...reflect some more... and ill find some comfort in that i can avoid any criticism for my thoughts.

6. but it will still feel somewhat lonely. its like im a reluctant introvert. ill reach a point, where i just feel the introversion is not very productive. but its "safe" so i stay there, secretly wishing i could just express Ne without critisism..... or that i had someone else to share all of it with.

7. when you have no one else to bounch off of, Ne can sometimes just stagnate...feeding the cycle of feeding the beast of Fi. Fi just gets more and more power, gets stronger and stronger.

8. I would say i have both Te and Si pretty well developed at this point in my life. I think Si developed first, but Te seems to be naturally stronger.

9. As far as oppositional and shadow functions, my Ni is kind of developed, but its more like a foreboding and neurotic prophesy of how other might view me, than how say an INFJ uses it. Fe is also maybe an oppositional, my mom is strong Fe and i oppose it every chance i get! im VERY weak in this area.

10. the INFP demonic is Ti, and i am bad at math. the ENFP demonic is Se. im a good athlete, but i have terrible "skill" (im more of the guy who is gonna just run through you with rage and passion). I also HATE being drunk or high... could this also be a Se demonic????

11.a when i felt relaxed, i would be very outgoing and fun (Ne), but this would put some people off, because they only knew me as mr intense (Fi) and so it would add to my confusion as to how i supposed to act.

11. often during my highschool career i was told that i was very "intense". in the way that say "tiger woods is intense". when someone else would be happy with their performance, i would always be bugging the coach about how the race felt and what could i have done better etc...i was often told that i was too intense.

12. but compare that "intense" which was me at my worst moments, with the Ne me at my best...(performing a skit, creating million year long running jokes with my friends, seeing all the refracting patterns in every song and picture). and its a confusing prospect:

am a former ENFP who became hostage to Fi, insecurity? or am i just an INFP who needs to balance out with Ne a little more?

i dont always relate to all the INFPs...sometimes i wonder if im REALLY as happy being introverted as some of them are, and i wonder if maybe im just a shy extrovert.

I recently had an ENFJ tell me that they didnt believe that i was an introvert, and in fact they wont let me believe that i am

 

[arcticangel02]

hey i type as an INFP, wonder if you can help me clear up some thoughts....

So these are just my thoughts as I read through your points, comparing them with myself, etc. Not sure how much it'll help, but feel free to ask questions.

1. if you believe the development of function "order", i was definitaly a "Ne" child....my two best friends were XNTP, ENFP and we would have what i would call Imagination land Ne ....(come on, we were 10!)

Yes, see, that's sort of my dilemma. I'm fairly certain I am Ne dominant - but I'm a pretty quiet, passive extravert, as such. Hence my confusion.

2. I however then hit a point where i started to display the famous, "young INFP temper". and i would get in trouble a lot in grade school for acting out what i felt were wrongs against my Fi (i would just punch the asshole teasing me )....

Interesting. In comparison, I was a pretty outgoing, stubborn child, and then as I went into the teenage years, I basically just sort of drifted off into my own world - I read a lot, and although I had friends, I don't really remember clashing with anyone EVER. My classmates described me as 'nice' and 'smart' and not much else. My friends described me as a 'mouse'.

3. it seems like then i started to follow the "INFP" path of insecurity in public etc....i almost repressed my Ne, because it was made fun of, for being weird....

This was possibly what I did in those drifty years, although I don't really recall. By the time I got over being super-quiet (around 17/18) I was confident enough in myself (and peers generally not as nasty) to be really made fun of. I don't know, really.

4. I feel at my best, when im in Ne land...i loved drama, creative writing, fantasy, books of period pieces or far away land, RPGs and improv class. the only places i felt welcomed to let the Ne go wild!

Yep, me too. I love drifting and imagining, but for me, now, that's still not quite as good as an invigorating and enthralling conversation with someone on the same wavelength as me.

5. I actaully feel at my worst, when i wallow in Fi. well i mean, i like it...but its more like a prison of masochism. Ill recluse from the world, put on "deep or sad music..." and reflect...reflect some more... and ill find some comfort in that i can avoid any criticism for my thoughts.

Interesting. I find that I love love love "deep or sad music" even though I'm generally a pretty optimistic, cheerful person. But there's something about that sort of music which sort of stirs my soul - sometimes I just love sort of wallowing in the emotion of it all. I don't really think it's a particularly masochistic behaviour, though, I don't come out of it feeling particularly sad myself... just quiet and reflective, yeah.

6. but it will still feel somewhat lonely. its like im a reluctant introvert. ill reach a point, where i just feel the introversion is not very productive. but its "safe" so i stay there, secretly wishing i could just express Ne without critisism..... or that i had someone else to share all of it with.

Hmm. I have a tendency, when I spend too much time on my own - although I don't de-energise dramatically, I feel sort of bored, restless, listless. Yet, at the same time, I am also not very good at remedying this situation. I don't really organise or create opportunities for myself to socialise. Well, sometimes. But not very often.

7. when you have no one else to bounch off of, Ne can sometimes just stagnate...feeding the cycle of feeding the beast of Fi. Fi just gets more and more power, gets stronger and stronger.

I'm not too sure what you mean...

8. I would say i have both Te and Si pretty well developed at this point in my life. I think Si developed first, but Te seems to be naturally stronger.

When do you use Si/Te? How do they manifest themselves?

9. As far as oppositional and shadow functions, my Ni is kind of developed, but its more like a foreboding and neurotic prophesy of how other might view me, than how say an INFJ uses it. Fe is also maybe an oppositional, my mom is strong Fe and i oppose it every chance i get! im VERY weak in this area.

I'm not sure about Ni, but Fe is an interesting one. ENFPs have a sort of fake-Fe. The combination of Ne + Fi often appears like a form of Fe, although it isn't. As an ENFP, I most certainly don't use Fe, and I'm very aware of that. I sometimes wish I did - it would make things easier! But although it may appear Fe from the outside, it is vastly different on the inside. My approach to Fe in other people? I don't know, I appreciate it and admire it, I guess. But then I don't have anyone that close to me attempting to control me with Fe, either. I can imagine it being a bit cloying, though.

10. the INFP demonic is Ti, and i am bad at math. the ENFP demonic is Se. im a good athlete, but i have terrible "skill" (im more of the guy who is gonna just run through you with rage and passion). I also HATE being drunk or high... could this also be a Se demonic????

I'm pretty good at maths - it was my best subject at school. I never liked sport. I don't know about being high, but as far as being drunk, sometimes I can feel sort of defensive when I'm tipsy, but generally I enjoy it.

11.a when i felt relaxed, i would be very outgoing and fun (Ne), but this would put some people off, because they only knew me as mr intense (Fi) and so it would add to my confusion as to how i supposed to act.

11. often during my highschool career i was told that i was very "intense". in the way that say "tiger woods is intense". when someone else would be happy with their performance, i would always be bugging the coach about how the race felt and what could i have done better etc...i was often toldthat i was too intense.

Interesting. If anything, I'm too lazy to be that intense. I was always more drifty and absent-minded than focused and intent.

12. but compare that "intense" which was me at my worst moments, with the Ne me at my best...(performing a skit, creating million year long running jokes with my friends, seeing all the refracting patterns in every song and picture). and its a confusing prospect:

am a former ENFP who became hostage to Fi, insecurity? or am i just an INFP who needs to balance out with Ne a little more?

Hmm. From what you've said, my first impression says that you are an INFP. Not an extreme one, probably borderline, but still an INFP.

i dont always relate to all the INFPs...sometimes i wonder if im REALLY as happy being introverted as some of them are, and i wonder if maybe im just a shy extrovert.

I fall into that trap too, a little. Lots of the introverts on these forums are quite extreme introverts (like, 80 - 100%) and so it's easy to wonder if you're an extravert just because you need more social contact than that. All but the most extrame extraverts and introverts need both alone time and social contact.

Personally, I feel like a clear extravert on these forums, but IRL I am considerably more introverted.

I recently had an ENFJ tell me that they didnt believe that i was an introvert, and in fact they wont let me believe that i am

Interesting! Did they give reasons?

 

[Venom]

Yes, see, that's sort of my dilemma. I'm fairly certain I am Ne dominant - but I'm a pretty quiet, passive extravert, as such. Hence my confusion.

yes, and i think i might have read you saying that somewhere, and i related a lot to it...exactly why im so appreciative of you reading over my post!

Interesting. In comparison, I was a pretty outgoing, stubborn child, and then as I went into the teenage years, I basically just sort of drifted off into my own world - I read a lot, and although I had friends, I don't really remember clashing with anyone EVER. My classmates described me as 'nice' and 'smart' and not much else. My friends described me as a 'mouse'.

what i forgot to mention...was that all that temper and fighting was a short phase of say 3rd-5th grade...and THEN i did the whole reading, passive etc thing you describe...

This was possibly what I did in those drifty years, although I don't really recall. By the time I got over being super-quiet (around 17/18) I was confident enough in myself (and peers generally not as nasty) to be really made fun of. I don't know, really.

well im 20, so i could just be a few years later? i swear im not trying to "force this"... i just like exploring the possibilities.

Yep, me too. I love drifting and imagining, but for me, now, that's still not quite as good as an invigorating and enthralling conversation with someone on the same wavelength as me.

even though im not "great friends" with a certian ENTP...i can tell you no matter what the occasion, how uncomfortable i felt etc, i just gravitate to him when i do happen to see him and we go into Ne mode

Interesting. I find that I love love love "deep or sad music" even though I'm generally a pretty optimistic, cheerful person. But there's something about that sort of music which sort of stirs my soul - sometimes I just love sort of wallowing in the emotion of it all. I don't really think it's a particularly masochistic behaviour, though, I don't come out of it feeling particularly sad myself... just quiet and reflective, yeah.

let me clarify that i too, "love" sad deep music even when im not in a sad mood. its just that sometimes i question wether its healhty or not and wonder if its perpetuating some sort of repression of Ne. (prog rock kind of combines the Ne and Fi...its my happy medium )

Hmm. I have a tendency, when I spend too much time on my own - although I don't de-energise dramatically, I feel sort of bored, restless, listless. Yet, at the same time, I am also not very good at remedying this situation. I don't really organise or create opportunities for myself to socialise. Well, sometimes. But not very often.

oh i really resonate with this! in my high school years, i was best friends with an INTJ. it was such a perfect best friend match. He would arrange a lot of it logistically about where we would go, who we'd meet, when, etc (i mean of course i had input too ) He didnt mind planning because A) he liked it duh INTJ B) i was perfect when we needed someone a little more bubbly if we were meeting up with some girls or something.

ive been really missing this aspect, since i never learned how to create opportunites, extrovert, ambivert or introvert i guess i would have no choice but to introvert.

When do you use Si/Te? How do they manifest themselves?

chemistry, chemistry, chemistry! my Ti tricks me at all costs! trying to do Calculus i just cant trust my global logic, i have to do enough problems that im really just running on si/te. chemistry, i can just read notes, memorize the math PROCEDURE, and replicate it using te/si. most of chem is converting information into other forms of info.

I'm not sure about Ni, but Fe is an interesting one. ENFPs have a sort of fake-Fe. The combination of Ne + Fi often appears like a form of Fe, although it isn't. As an ENFP, I most certainly don't use Fe, and I'm very aware of that. I sometimes wish I did - it would make things easier! But although it may appear Fe from the outside, it is vastly different on the inside. My approach to Fe in other people? I don't know, I appreciate it and admire it, I guess. But then I don't have anyone that close to me attempting to control me with Fe, either. I can imagine it being a bit cloying, though.

i would imagine that in both INFPs and ENFPs that Ni/Fe would work together as an oppositional shadow. having a very good friend of the opposite sex is an ENFJ, i routinely witness what well used Fe looks like...and i cant say i have it lol.

I'm pretty good at maths - it was my best subject at school. I never liked sport. I don't know about being high, but as far as being drunk, sometimes I can feel sort of defensive when I'm tipsy, but generally I enjoy it.

no comment from me, except that i agree that being buzzed is fine. i just mean that unlike a lot of XSXX i HATE being drunk, i feel it forces me to face Se which might sense as Se being an ENFP demonic.

Interesting. If anything, I'm too lazy to be that intense. I was always more drifty and absent-minded than focused and intent.

i know thats why it was always easy as a 16-20 year old to say, "duh INFP, way too intense for ENFP"...but then when i access my memory and ask people what i was like younger, etc... there were many happier times when i was NOT intense. like my Fi moments, i like being intense, but its definatly not as happy as my Ne moments.

Hmm. From what you've said, my first impression says that you are an INFP. Not an extreme one, probably borderline, but still an INFP.
I fall into that trap too, a little. Lots of the introverts on these forums are quite extreme introverts (like, 80 - 100%) and so it's easy to wonder if you're an extravert just because you need more social contact than that. All but the most extrame extraverts and introverts need both alone time and social contact.
Personally, I feel like a clear extravert on these forums, but IRL I am considerably more introverted.

thanks for going through and making some comments . i would say that im at the very least 100% sure that i need to pay more attention to letting my Ne show more in public. i may have jumped the gun in saying ENFP, but then again, if i do succeed in letting my Ne more out in public, maybe the evidence will change as well....

Interesting! Did they give reasons?

well she may have just been in rescuer mode and thinks that introversion is "bad".... but then again, her bf is extremely introverted....

i think its cuz she only sees me at non party, yet still social, environments. for some reason, if its a party i actaully get more of this almost social anxiety...but if its like a school related or church related thing, im a social butterfly.

again thanks for reading through. i really enjoyed your comments ... not that it matters, but are you a guy or a girl? im an admitted an idiot at reading gender through typed messages

 

[Venom]

i found this:

"They are definitely into people, because they get visually depressed when they are put alone for a long period of time. It seems, though, that when put along, they are often not willing to go out and surround themselves with the people they so clearly need; they just sit there and wither into themselves, reflecting on their intuition fueled feelings. If people do not come around them (the ENFPs) and rid them of their feeling of loneliness, then they seem to start thinking the worst. They may think they have been used, or that they have wasted their time, because they put all that effort into maintaining their interpersonal relationships, but no one is willing to turn around and do the same for them. Eventually, the ENFP begin sending out subtle hints that they want some attention, or some company. If no one picks up on these hints, then the ENFP feels even more used, or wasted. This is unlike the ESFP, who, at a moments notice, would go out and actively seek the company of others. Its kinda strange to me, would any of you be able to explain this to me?

Also, it seems as though ENFPs have a two-faced personality: one being the upbeat, fun face mentioned above, and the second being a very sad, confused, speculative face. This second face, I suppose, is a major source of conflict within the ENFP. It induces alot of interestings beliefs from the ENFP: "I feel so fake", "No one really knows who I am", "I don't even know who I am anymore", etc. The second face also seems to give the ENFP some shyness in the presence of new people. They want to make a good impression, they want to be liked, but it seems they are afraid that their second face will be seen and brought to the surface, and that they will be accused of being fake (which would be a serious and believable insult to the ENFP and their set of values). But the shyness fades as they become comfortable with the people they have just met. Am I on target here? Better yet, why does this shyness happen? "

which is a very interesting INTPs take on the ENFPs he knows...

"It seems, though, that when put along, they are often not willing to go out and surround themselves with the people they so clearly need; they just sit there and wither into themselves, reflecting on their intuition fueled feelings. If people do not come around them (the ENFPs) and rid them of their feeling of loneliness, then they seem to start thinking the worst."

the bold part, sounds like me lol

also if it helps: im the BIGGEST procrastinator EVER. i might be organize with Te/si when i actaully get around to it... but studying or "planning" to study just doesnt ever go as planned (damn tangent thinking )

 

[arcticangel02]

yes, and i think i might have read you saying that somewhere, and i related a lot to it...exactly why im so appreciative of you reading over my post!

Hey, no worries! Pleased to be of assistance.

what i forgot to mention...was that all that temper and fighting was a short phase of say 3rd-5th grade...and THEN i did the whole reading, passive etc thing you describe...

Ah, I see. I don't recall really ever having a temper/acting out, but then again, I'd be hard-pressed to describe my behaviour at that age, too. Interestingly enough, my mother is always shaking her head about how stubborn I am - which is bizarre for me. It's like the opposite of how I am 95% of the time, and it's only when I'm in a particular mood now that I'll put my foot down and turn inflexible. ^^ (Oh, and she's also convinced I'm a 100% introvert because of my quiet teenage years, so yeah. ><)

well im 20, so i could just be a few years later? i swear im not trying to "force this"... i just like exploring the possibilities.

Well, yep, I'm 21, so I'm pretty much at the same stage as you, I think. The comments about my being more confident/peers not so nasty at that age was pure speculation as to why I didn't feel as shy as showing my Ne as you seem to be. Probably just different circumstances, so don't mind it.

even though im not "great friends" with a certian ENTP...i can tell you no matter what the occasion, how uncomfortable i felt etc, i just gravitate to him when i do happen to see him and we go into Ne mode

Yes, absolutely. I <3 my NTP friends. There's something about them which is just irresistable!

let me clarify that i too, "love" sad deep music even when im not in a sad mood. its just that sometimes i question wether its healhty or not and wonder if its perpetuating some sort of repression of Ne. (prog rock kind of combines the Ne and Fi...its my happy medium )

Right, gotcha.

oh i really resonate with this! in my high school years, i was best friends with an INTJ. it was such a perfect best friend match. He would arrange a lot of it logistically about where we would go, who we'd meet, when, etc (i mean of course i had input too ) He didnt mind planning because A) he liked it duh INTJ B) i was perfect when we needed someone a little more bubbly if we were meeting up with some girls or something.

ive been really missing this aspect, since i never learned how to create opportunites, extrovert, ambivert or introvert i guess i would have no choice but to introvert.

Haha, yes, absolutely. Me and my INTP are horrible at organising anything. It's all 'What do you want to do?' 'Don't mind, what do you want to do?'. I do appreciate when someone else takes the reins - I really don't have much preference anyway, so it's easier that way. But despite not having someone else to organise me, I am still miserable at organising myself, so I don't know how easily we learn that behaviour!!

chemistry, chemistry, chemistry! my Ti tricks me at all costs! trying to do Calculus i just cant trust my global logic, i have to do enough problems that im really just running on si/te. chemistry, i can just read notes, memorize the math PROCEDURE, and replicate it using te/si. most of chem is converting information into other forms of info.

Haha, chemistry was my worst subject at school. Apparently Physics class was supposed to be harder than Chemistry at my school, but I did fine in Physics and nearly failed Chem. >< Although I didn't know enough about MBTI back when I was doing those, so I couldn't begin to associate various subjects with cognitive functions.

i know thats why it was always easy as a 16-20 year old to say, "duh INFP, way too intense for ENFP"...but then when i access my memory and ask people what i was like younger, etc... there were many happier times when i was NOT intense. like my Fi moments, i like being intense, but its definatly not as happy as my Ne moments.

Well, yeah. When I was 16 there was no way you'd type me as an ENFP... I was very much introverted. I was the sort of person who was silly and random around friends but an absolute mouse around anyone else. It's only in the last few years (as I mentioned) that I've sort of come out of my shell and really started to open up. So sometimes I do wonder whether I'm an INFP who's just learning to deal with the outside world (like everyone has to eventually) or really an ENFP who's just getting over teenage shyness. Most likely in a few years this will be a lot clearer.

thanks for going through and making some comments . i would say that im at the very least 100% sure that i need to pay more attention to letting my Ne show more in public. i may have jumped the gun in saying ENFP, but then again, if i do succeed in letting my Ne more out in public, maybe the evidence will change as well....

Well, yeah. It's pretty hard to tell, and as I've been told more than ones, the E/I score is the least important of them all, as it only determines which order you use your functions. It's pretty clear we both use Ne and Fi pretty readily. There may yet be an ENFP hiding in there.

Also, being able to let your Ne free and just not care that other people are giving you strange looks is sort of refreshing and, well, just great. Give it a try sometime. It's dizzying.

well she may have just been in rescuer mode and thinks that introversion is "bad".... but then again, her bf is extremely introverted....

i think its cuz she only sees me at non party, yet still social, environments. for some reason, if its a party i actaully get more of this almost social anxiety...but if its like a school related or church related thing, im a social butterfly.

That's interesting. Other people's opinions can be either insightful or confusing, so keep it in mind but take it with a grain of salt. All it really means in that you're more extraverted than her perception of an introvert - if she's using her bf as an indicator, then you most certainly are more extraverted than him.

again thanks for reading through. i really enjoyed your comments ... not that it matters, but are you a guy or a girl? im an admitted an idiot at reading gender through typed messages

Haha, that's okay. I'm a girl. It's hard to determine gender through posts - something tells me you're a guy, but I'm not sure where I picked that up from, so I could be wrong.

i found this:


which is a very interesting INTPs take on the ENFPs he knows...

"It seems, though, that when put along, they are often not willing to go out and surround themselves with the people they so clearly need; they just sit there and wither into themselves, reflecting on their intuition fueled feelings. If people do not come around them (the ENFPs) and rid them of their feeling of loneliness, then they seem to start thinking the worst."

the bold part, sounds like me lol

also if it helps: im the BIGGEST procrastinator EVER. i might be organize with Te/si when i actaully get around to it... but studying or "planning" to study just doesnt ever go as planned (damn tangent thinking )

Yes, yes, I completely understand! Procrastination is my DOWNFALL. And the Te-mode (as I call it) that we go into when we finally have to get something done can be pretty intense and exhausting. But very productive. We're strange creatures.

I actually find the comments about ENFPs on these forums so much more accurate than the descriptions you'll find on the various MBTI/Kiersey webpages. I think you can describe something in theory all you want, but it doesn't really encompass what a person of that type is really like. But when you read about people of that type or other people describing their friends of that type, it's all just uncanny in it's accuracy.

 

[Kanerou]

Several years ago when I first took the Keirsey Temperament Sorter and had no idea what it was, I scored as an ENFP. I answered the questions honestly and uncoerced, in a comfortable environment with a supportive friend administering. The description really seemed to fit quite well.

It wasn't until years later that I really took an intense interest in MBTI and Keirsey and started to study the theory behind it and get to know the types and everything better. Again I took the KTS, just for kicks, and again scored solidly in the ENFP range. Again the type description fits me the best out of all 16 possibilities, though I have mellowed with age and practiced using more of my functions.

However, nearly every online MBTI-type indicator I have taken scores me as an INFP. I have read many type descriptions for INFP, and while a lot of it resonates with me, I do think the ENFP descriptions fit better.

I took the cognitive processes indicator, and the results were interesting--Ne and Fi were almost equal, Ne winning out by a small margin of about two points. Again, this would seem to indicate ENFP, if only barely. However, the score I was given was INFP. The only reason for that that I can think of is that my Ne and Fi were almost equal for dominant and auxiliary, and the next two cognitive processes in line were Ni and Ti, which makes three out of my top four cognitive processes introverted ones. Perhaps that tipped the scales over to introvertedness, as far as the indicator was concerned? (Ne, Fi, Te, and Si were in that order, the ENFP order, but other processes were interspersed between them in prominence.)

Another interesting thing is that recently two friends of mine, one who scores ENFP and another who scores INFP both pegged me as an INFP. The ENFP pal is pretty interested in MBTI herself and said that she estimated the NFP pretty readily but was uncertain whether to choose I or E when typing me.

Another very close friend, who is an INTP and is very interested in MBTI (and who is the one who originally gave me the KTS!) put forward the theory that I "hide" my dominant function somewhat. I do think that as I have gotten older I have made an attempt to rein in the Ne around most people. And if my Ne and Fi are as close as the cognitive processes results indicate, it makes sense that while reining in my Ne I may appear to have dominant Fi, or at least to be an xNFP.

I do think that overall, ENFP fits me better. With Ne and Fi so far in the lead, the NFP part is pretty much chiseled into the marble statue of my being and surrounded by flashing Vegas lights (metaphorical ones, LOL). At times I have been tempted to think of myself as an xNFP, but something about putting an x in there annoys me, as though it's indicating indecisiveness on my part or something. (I don't mind when other people do it, if they are still determining their best-fit type or have definitely scored 50/50 on some part, but something about it strikes me as "unfinished," if that makes sense.) Further, there don't seem to be any meaningful type descriptions for 50/50 E/I types, and I really do think that the descriptions for the ENFP fit me better overall than those for INFP.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Why is the KTS the only one that has consistently (well, twice over the course of several years) scored me as ENFP, while so many others have scored me as INFP? I have never taken an official MBTI; I wonder how that would score?

autumn

You know, when I first saw this, I did a double-take and had to assure myself that I wasn't writing it.

Basically: Kindred!

 

[Eric B]

OK, you are considering your type bases upon yoru evaluation of how you think about problems. If you are prepared to, let look at something which should demonstrate the ENFP/ENTP difference. Could you talk to us about the last very difficult personal decision that you had to make about your personal life, and how/ehy you chose to do what you did?

I hadn't forgotten this. It's just so difficult to think of anything "very difficult", because I'm very indifferent about a lot of things.
The best thing I can think of is moving, 3 months ago. We had to get out of an old, vermin infested apartment, we had just moved into a little over a year earlier to get out of another vermin infested place. I did not feel like moving again. So my wife suggested hiring movers this time. My parents helped with the money.

We looked for the first decent thing we could find. We went to look at two places not too far from where we were. One was cheaper and brand new brick/concrete constructed house, with a balcony. It looked a bit small, though. The other was a few years old prefab construction house, but the rent was higher. So we weighed the price, and location. The second one was in an area being rebuilt after decades of decay, yet it is closer to the transportation hub. So that's good for me. With the price, plus the familiarity of that side of the neighborhood, I guess it was "difficult".
We were interviewed by both, but only the second called back, and that's what we ended up taking. My wife loves it. I think it's nice. Good that the vermin are gone, and it's all new, and even has a little yard. (My wife is a definite "feeling" type).

I was basically indifferent, because I had my own ideas of what and where I wanted to live, but it was a matter of the price, and then spending time looking for more places, and if it's far, she would be away from her friends and have to travel further to get to church (where she works as a counselor). But we had to take something now, and with me, it was pretty much "whatever" (the only thing I am strictly against is a wood frame building, because they burn down too easily). So what we got was nice, so we're happy.

Also, I find it interesting that moving house was the thing you picked as a difficult personal decision. I would have thought it would be a fairly impersonal process for everyone. Of course you might like the feel of one house over another, but when it comes down to it, it's impersonal, quantitative things that would almost certainly make the decision, wouldn't it?

I've pretty much gotten the concepts down pact now, so I can answer the question better now. I see that I clearly chose based on Ti, because it was about true or false principles based on my own criteria. I had read this about Ti all along, as well as the "subjective framework" it uses, but it was just a matter of identifying this in my own decision making, and sifting through all the other information I was getting about type, here and elswhere.

Criteria (categories) for choosing a place to live:

Construct (no wood; as fireproof as possible)
Rent
Size needed
Location (trains)
Surroundings (not run downs, people, etc)
Looks
Specific "dream" model

This fits with the examples used in Berens' Dynamics of Personality Type, where the act of putting together a checklist of criteria for buying a dog was an example of Te, and the act of choosing the dog based on the criteria was Ti. This type of thing made it hard to tell the difference. Te is supposed to be judgment based on "properties inherent in the object", and both examples looked like this. But one process was more general, focusing on the properties that would define the criteria, while the other involved learning the properties of each dog, and comparing them with the preconceived criteria.

In my example, the properties of the house (including knowledge of which constructs are more fire-safe) all serve subjective criteria that developed as needs were realized. I never had to list them (until this post). Anything that did not fit the first four were just ruled out, and it was a narrowing down process. Again, it was my wife who went purely by how "nice" it looked. (Feeling type decision).

I was nervous, because for one, I had just come out of a heated dispute elsewhere with someone over me being NF vs NT, and I already saw the same trend here of professing Ti users being "downgraded" to F or Te preference based on things they write, so what was in my mind as far as the "decision" was a dream house layout and locale I had long wished for. I feared this would be taken as a "feeling" preference, and then since I couldn't have that, felt indifferent in the choice, and didn't know what to say, really. But since there is nothing around here like that, the actual decision was based only on the first five criteria.

I have since realized that my "dream" concept is more Si (based on where I grew up, and how nice it looked), and a lesser Fe (desire for external harmony) than the dreaded Fi I was trying to keep from being tagged with. I also stayed in this area and did not look in those areas that look more like my dream concept, because our friends are over here, as well as our church where my wife works. That would be Fe as well. Also, the areas and types of buildings I like are most likely more expensive. Hence, that is last on the list. I had thought just it being on the list might indicate "Feeling", but type is about preference, and that clearly was last, and I hadn't yet realized the subjective logical basis and higher priority of all the other criteria.

Overall, most my decisions on stuff like this are based on an internal logic system first, and then the other functions fit in with that.

I also go more into my realizations about my type and the functions on my blog:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/blogs/eric-b/872-my-sorting-through-my-own-functions-type.html

 

[hommefatal]

I scored ENFP on Keirsey. But it was 50%/50%. MBTI and Jung are mostly INFP. I surely am a ANFP.

 

[Little Linguist]

Well I've been slowly expanding for a few years so if you don't mind I'd rather not increase the rate thanks very much.

As for examples, an INFP I know blew up once when I was in the vicinity. He basically pointed out all the other persons flaws while exiting the building (presumably the usual introvert hating to make such a show of themselves). He was loud and looked like he was about to actually explode.

Now the ENFP I know quite well, and have annoyed on many many wonderous occasions ( ), will usually blow up pointing out the specific flaws in my arguements or other wise attacking whatever I am founding my arguments on. He is less prone to directly attacking me and also has little problem staying in the room whilst annoyed.

Out of the two, the extrovert forgives quicker. The INFP bears grudges.

I guess the other evidence is produced by stress. The INFP has shown me several of his rough drafts for a piece of writing, asking for input. When I criticise he get's in the mind set of "well f' you buddy!!" quite quickly.. or at least he used to.

Now the ENFP, when he was stressed and came over looking for advice and someone to talk to I could have told him the seven steps to nirvanna and a million pounds and he'd have come up with some reason why it wouldn't work, or just flat out deny it.

Stressed ENFP = No it isn't.
Stressed INFP = I'm going to force it.

Hellz yeah!

I would say 85% of the time, I react ENFP-ish and 15% of the time I react INFP-ish.