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Thread: ENFP/INFP

  1. #71
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    uh, it's just as easy to be dissagreeable with informing communication. In fact, I don't agree with any of those. so please don't state it as if it's fact (how in the world would openness correspond with S/N?
    Those correlations are supported through the statistical studies done between MBTI and FFM, as well as the basic concepts. You're taking some of those factor names too literally. (Such as "informing" or "agreeable"). There is much more to the definition of the factor than what you seem to be reading into them.
    Xander didn't annoy me because of my type, and he didn't annoy me because of some supposedly 'phlegmatic' humor. He annoyed me because I now have an extremely short fuse for type bias. This forum should be for learning, and contriving a fake 'battle of the types' out of boredom serves no purpuse. I am still dissapointed that some people are so obviously bored with the material, and just try to make a game out of it. Have some respect for the ideas! Jung came up with his stuff through years of study, not through five minutes of armchair thinking.
    But your annoyance at him could be apart of type or cognitive dynamics. That was my point there. Or of course, it might not be. Again, he was only joking, and that's the way he jokes.

  2. #72
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    ...
    Alright, after reading your post, I think I might be siding with Xander and think that INFP may indeed be your type. INFPs can be quite 'cool' to the outside world, and appear to have a thinking preference if you don't know them well.

    I'll admit that I'm not as familiar with the theories outside of MBTI, but the 'fifth temperament' you mention does strike me as an IF sort of thing. Just because somebody is an introvert does not mean they don't desire contact with people.

    The 'Control' area you mention may well be where your ESTJ shadow comes out - the heavy influence of Te around you has brought out that side of you when you need to be in charge, so you come across 'angry and aggressive', which sounds like completely opposite to the normal you?

    And ENFP would have a more chilled shadow - like I think Xander mentioned earlier, they're more like the ISTJ, which is serious and defensive as opposed to active and aggressive.

    I also found this quote, which although it's talking about ENFP, may also apply to the INFP as far as 'overcompensating' goes:

    Gender differences can be significant for males because the qualities most associated with ENFPs are more traditionally attributed to females: sociability, desire/need to please, intuition, spontaneity, and concern for other people. As a result, when an ENFP male "plays" into those natural preferences of his personality, he can find himself outside the male "establishment." Ironically, this may set him up to overcompensate and behave in ways atypical for ENFPs -- to be, for example, competitive or overly argumentative. Seeking group approval, he may get involved with contact sports or other "tough" activities, though he would really prefer to be elsewhere.
    Maybe, coming from a heavily T environment, you may have had to adapt in that manner, too?

    Another thought, you might also possibly be mistaking Fi for Ti - both are very internal systems of processing information, and can be quite difficult to tell apart, especially if you're borderline T/F. Quite a few people classify themselves as INxP. But you definitely do seem concerned with people and how they're feeling, etc, which would indicate your being an F. I don't know if that applies at all, but maybe something to think about.

    The Ne+Ti = Appearance of Te may well be the case, but from what I can tell, you just don't seem like an NTP at all. Again, that may have something to do with how you present yourself on the forum, but still.

    Does that help at all? Again, I'm just sort of going through ideas - some of them may apply, some not.

    But from what I can tell, INFP does seem like it fits you as well as MBTI can.
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

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    Quote Originally Posted by arcticangel02 View Post
    Alright, after reading your post, I think I might be siding with Xander and think that INFP may indeed be your type. INFPs can be quite 'cool' to the outside world, and appear to have a thinking preference if you don't know them well.

    I'll admit that I'm not as familiar with the theories outside of MBTI, but the 'fifth temperament' you mention does strike me as an IF sort of thing.
    Normally it is. It basically follows the Behind the Scenes Interaction Style, which is IF for all types exept for the NT. But since it is much more "feely" than the Phlegmatic that also follows BtS; and with me, since it's a bit more mixed with Choleric, that is obviously where the T/F issues are coming from.
    The 'Control' area you mention may well be where your ESTJ shadow comes out - the heavy influence of Te around you has brought out that side of you when you need to be in charge, so you come across 'angry and aggressive', which sounds like completely opposite to the normal you?
    I would say that there is a very "critical" and somewhat controlling edge to me naturally (which comes out in Ti things such as questioning and skepticism). So when you take that to begin with, and then add the outside Te influence, plus a more sensitive fifth temperament; I think that is what affected me like that.

    As for shadows; I meant to mention before, there are two different versions of "shadow" type. The one you're using (which I see on Team Technology) is simply the primary functions in reverse. That would yield ESTJ. However, "shadow" is also frequently used for the remaining, unused non-primary functions, which are the primary functions in the same order, but with the attitudes (i/e) reversed. So for an INTP, the shadow is TeNiSeFi, or ENTJ. For an ENTP, it is NiTeFiSe, or INTJ. Those would make more sense for me, and I could admit to. Te is more an "oppositional" or "witch" thing for me, and Fi is more "destructive" or possibly deceiving.
    And ENFP would have a more chilled shadow - like I think Xander mentioned earlier, they're more like the ISTJ, which is serious and defensive as opposed to active and aggressive.

    I also found this quote, which although it's talking about ENFP, may also apply to the INFP as far as 'overcompensating' goes:
    I think that further goes to show that the NFP's are not these normally angry Cholerics, as it was assumed; though like anybody, they do have angry reactions and a shadow that will come out eventually.
    Maybe, coming from a heavily T environment, you may have had to adapt in that manner, too?

    Another thought, you might also possibly be mistaking Fi for Ti - both are very internal systems of processing information, and can be quite difficult to tell apart, especially if you're borderline T/F.
    I considered that, but then when at first accepting an NFP type; I may have done the opposite and mistaken other things for Fi, or at least assumed whatever Fi I was using was primary rather than shadow. Now again, It really does seem Fi is more negative, and not the "hero" or "good parent" of a preferred position.
    Quite a few people classify themselves as INxP. But you definitely do seem concerned with people and how they're feeling, etc, which would indicate your being an F. I don't know if that applies at all, but maybe something to think about.
    Yeah; I do. And that was one thing that made me think Fi, but upon reading more; I see that the "F" you describe there (regarding other people) which I thought was Fi, is actually more associated with Fe-- which is in a nonpreferred (yet, nevertheless primary) position for NTP's (and in the shadow of NFP's). That would also seem to make more sense.
    The Ne+Ti = Appearance of Te may well be the case, but from what I can tell, you just don't seem like an NTP at all. Again, that may have something to do with how you present yourself on the forum, but still.

    Does that help at all? Again, I'm just sort of going through ideas - some of them may apply, some not.

    But from what I can tell, INFP does seem like it fits you as well as MBTI can.
    Yeah, thanks; I think it is just a matter of the way I've learned to express myself. The internal process is probably more Ti, but Te seemed the strongest way to get a point across and make your voice heard, (it's supposed to be either "backup" or "discovery", it it more often comes out negatively).

  4. #74
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Eric,
    One thing which may help you (and perhaps trip you up) is the use of the words 'thinking' and 'logic'.

    My father has always told me that if you ask an F (this is a bit of stereotyping but serves me well as an initial guideline) if they are logical and they'll tell you they are but they're not. Now I don't completely agree with that but I do note that with an F their logic is tied much closer to their initial emotional response than a T. Not that Ts are immune to their ID, it's just not as visceral IME.

    As for the use of the word "thinking", every INFP I know is a deep thinker. On par with most INTPs (I'm leaving out the reclusive INTP as they appear to be nothing more than thought half the time) for sheer just sitting on their ass and thinking of stuff. The one I meet with regularly is more a kin to a hole in a dam when he visits as the ideas and concepts flood out like a fire hydrant! So it's not really a good word to think of in terms of people, similarly with feeling as it's often quite obvious to me the emotional bias of the multiple ESTJs I appear to be working with.

    As for your behaviour versus your cognative wiring, the two aren't always going to match as we've discussed. That's why I asked about your background because if you've had to deal with people who expect objective reasoning then that is what you will develop. I grew up with 3 Js in the house and though I'm no neat freak I do tend to present plans fully formed with contingecies and such... not that these things come naturally but that's what I expect people to want and do because that's what I had to do as a child. Also thing like the military will drum plenty of STJ into you. Apparently an INFP who has served in the military is likely to be quite alike to an ESTJ as they've had to use their shadow so much to "survive" in such an NF hostile environment.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Eric,
    One thing which may help you (and perhaps trip you up) is the use of the words 'thinking' and 'logic'.

    My father has always told me that if you ask an F (this is a bit of stereotyping but serves me well as an initial guideline) if they are logical and they'll tell you they are but they're not. Now I don't completely agree with that but I do note that with an F their logic is tied much closer to their initial emotional response than a T. Not that Ts are immune to their ID, it's just not as visceral IME.
    I'm aware of the difference between "thinking" and "logic". I know that T is about logic, while F is about "values" (or "ethics").
    Still, what I have been assessing is which is the driving force in my life, and it has always seemed to be logic. Whatever "Strong feelings" or "emotional response" has some logical basis to them. Then, Fi, once again, seems to come up in very negative internal reactions to something being violated.

    Otherwise, I am often neutral and indifferent about "feelings" about things. My wife has to try to pry something out of me, but I'm just "whatever", unless it ties to some longstanding issue or some intellectual interest.
    As for the use of the word "thinking", every INFP I know is a deep thinker. On par with most INTPs (I'm leaving out the reclusive INTP as they appear to be nothing more than thought half the time) for sheer just sitting on their ass and thinking of stuff. The one I meet with regularly is more a kin to a hole in a dam when he visits as the ideas and concepts flood out like a fire hydrant! So it's not really a good word to think of in terms of people, similarly with feeling as it's often quite obvious to me the emotional bias of the multiple ESTJs I appear to be working with.

    As for your behaviour versus your cognative wiring, the two aren't always going to match as we've discussed. That's why I asked about your background because if you've had to deal with people who expect objective reasoning then that is what you will develop. I grew up with 3 Js in the house and though I'm no neat freak I do tend to present plans fully formed with contingecies and such... not that these things come naturally but that's what I expect people to want and do because that's what I had to do as a child. Also thing like the military will drum plenty of STJ into you. Apparently an INFP who has served in the military is likely to be quite alike to an ESTJ as they've had to use their shadow so much to "survive" in such an NF hostile environment.
    Yeah, it's a matter of sorting out what is what. In Beebe and Berens' theory, we all use all eight functions. Some are preferred, some nonpreferred, and the rest, shadow. Then, between thinking and feeling, there are the extraverted and introverted attitudes of them. So a "thinker" will turn that process primarily in one direction, yet he will have the opposite function (feeling) turned in the opposite direction. Then, he will have both reversed in the shadow range. The primary functions are generally positive in connotation, with negative sides, and the shadows are negative with positive sides.

    The "T" in my background was almost completely extraverted (with doses of it's tandem opposite, Fi). That is what rubbed off of me, in my "debate mode" when reasoning my opinions. Otherwise, I see my own T was always more inward.

    I have seen others here point out that a person haviung T/F uncertainties is usually an F. Plus your examples of Feelers mistaking their function for Thinking. It seems many Feelers want to be thinkers.
    I wonder if that might be because of the T dominance of an ESTJ society.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    OK, you are considering your type bases upon yoru evaluation of how you think about problems. If you are prepared to, let look at something which should demonstrate the ENFP/ENTP difference. Could you talk to us about the last very difficult personal decision that you had to make about your personal life, and how/why you chose to do what you did?
    I hadn't forgotten this. It's just so difficult to think of anything "very difficult", because I'm very indifferent about a lot of things.
    The best thing I can think of is moving, 3 months ago. We had to get out of an old, vermin infested apartment, we had just moved into a little over a year earlier to get out of another vermin infested place. I did not feel like moving again. So my wife suggested hiring movers this time. My parents helped with the money.

    We looked for the first decent thing we could find. We went to look at two places not too far from where we were. One was cheaper and brand new brick/concrete constructed house, with a balcony. It looked a bit small, though. The other was a few years old prefab construction house, but the rent was higher. So we weighed the price, and location. The second one was in an area being rebuilt after decades of decay, yet it is closer to the transportation hub. So that's good for me. With the price, plus the familiarity of that side of the neighborhood, I guess it was "difficult".
    We were interviewed by both, but only the second called back, and that's what we ended up taking. My wife loves it. I think it's nice. Good that the vermin are gone, and it's all new, and even has a little yard. (My wife is a definite "feeling" type).

    I was basically indifferent, because I had my own ideas of what and where I wanted to live, but it was a matter of the price, and then spending time looking for more places, and if it's far, she would be away from her friends and have to travel further to get to church (where she works as a counselor). But we had to take something now, and with me, it was pretty much "whatever" (the only thing I am strictly against is a wood frame building, because they burn down too easily). So what we got was nice, so we're happy.

  7. #77
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Eric, have you done this cognitive processes test? I'd be curious to see what your results are.

    Also, I find it interesting that moving house was the thing you picked as a difficult personal decision. I would have thought it would be a fairly impersonal process for everyone. Of course you might like the feel of one house over another, but when it comes down to it, it's impersonal, quantitative things that would almost certainly make the decision, wouldn't it?

    I don't want to pry or anything, but can you maybe think back to a time when maybe you had a major disagreement with a family member, or some relationship went through a rocky period. Something like that?

    You are an unusual one, Mr. B! But that's okay, we like a challenge.

    I have seen others here point out that a person haviung T/F uncertainties is usually an F. Plus your examples of Feelers mistaking their function for Thinking. It seems many Feelers want to be thinkers.
    I wonder if that might be because of the T dominance of an ESTJ society.
    That's definitely true. Thinking is often seen as clear-headed, sensible and logical, wheras Feeling tends to be seen more as 'wimpy' and letting 'emotion cloud reasonable, logical judgement'. It's just like Introverts being seen as 'shy' and 'antisocial' and Percievers as 'messy' and 'disorganised'. And even Intuitives as 'head in the clouds' and 'impractical'.

    Western society is an ESTJ society, for sure, so naturally any differences are going to have a little stigma as being 'less' than the 'ideal'. We all know that's not the case, and I can easily make that exact same list the opposite way around, but we can't deny that there's a bit of pressure to conform to the ESTJ way of things.

    So it's easy to unconsciously nudge your own preferences slightly in that direction, and for those of us on the borderline, it makes accurate typing difficult. That's not to say that if you're confused, you're automatically an INFP, but it still may have some bearing.

    Also, especially for ENPs, our thinking and feeling functions are one after the other. My Fi is auxillary, but my Te directly afterwards, as my tertiary function. So, yes, while I prefer Feeling, I also utilise Thinking frequently, so even though I am most certainly a Feeling-type, it's not really that simple. In fact, I would probably say I am more aware of my use of Te than I am of my use of Fi, probably by virtue of it being extraverted.

    Since I think we're pretty sure you use both Ti and Te, which would you say is your preferred type of feeling? Fi or Fe?

    Of course, if you turn out ENFP, we always come out using both strongly. ><
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

    9w1 so/sx/sp

  8. #78
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcticangel02 View Post
    Eric, have you done this cognitive processes test? I'd be curious to see what your results are.
    Yeah, right here, earlier in this thread:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...fp-infp-5.html

    Fi may be higher than Ti, but Ti surpasses Te. It's so mixed up, that the results make me both INFP type, and Theoristtemperament!

    Again, I think that this test is showing "active shadows". Everyone's looking at how much a person appears to use a function in outward interactions, but that really doesn't necessarily mean it is their true preference, as defined by the Jung/Myers system.

    It would be nice if this test could detect the actual purposes (archetypal roles) of the functions. I may use a lot of Fi, but again, the more I think of it (including continuing daily uses of it), it is more negative, and both Fi and Te seem to be associated with stress.
    Also, I find it interesting that moving house was the thing you picked as a difficult personal decision. I would have thought it would be a fairly impersonal process for everyone. Of course you might like the feel of one house over another, but when it comes down to it, it's impersonal, quantitative things that would almost certainly make the decision, wouldn't it?
    I thought that would be something that would be very personal. For my wife, it certainly was. People always judge by how the place and the area makes them feel. For me, it would be more personal if I saw something I particularly liked that met my criterion for the house/neighborhoods I've always wanted.
    I don't want to pry or anything, but can you maybe think back to a time when maybe you had a major disagreement with a family member, or some relationship went through a rocky period. Something like that?
    OK, that gives me an idea of the kid of thing the question is looking for. I'll think on it.
    You are an unusual one, Mr. B! But that's okay, we like a challenge.

    That's definitely true. Thinking is often seen as clear-headed, sensible and logical, wheras Feeling tends to be seen more as 'wimpy' and letting 'emotion cloud reasonable, logical judgement'. It's just like Introverts being seen as 'shy' and 'antisocial' and Percievers as 'messy' and 'disorganised'. And even Intuitives as 'head in the clouds' and 'impractical'.

    Western society is an ESTJ society, for sure, so naturally any differences are going to have a little stigma as being 'less' than the 'ideal'. We all know that's not the case, and I can easily make that exact same list the opposite way around, but we can't deny that there's a bit of pressure to conform to the ESTJ way of things.

    So it's easy to unconsciously nudge your own preferences slightly in that direction, and for those of us on the borderline, it makes accurate typing difficult. That's not to say that if you're confused, you're automatically an INFP, but it still may have some bearing.
    Well before, (and including up to the time I took that cognitiveprocesses test), I think I actually leaned too much towards Fi. I thought I preferred "what's personally important" and stuff like that, but really thinking about it, I think I am more into abstract models and frameworks and stuff like that. Again, "importance" only seems to come up in stressful situations or negative moments.

    Meanwhile, I have always gotten the sense from the STJ background (and now my SFJ marriage) that "concrete reality" and J "seriousness" is the way you're "supposed" to be, but I have never felt ashamed of my obvious N preference. I even defended it when my wife and I were reveiwing my Step II subscale grades, and she thought I was the one who was more "concrete" (because of my skepticism towards charismatic Christianity, which she and our friends have moved towards. But with everything else, I'm clearly an "Extraterrestrial", and when I put it to her that way, this morning, she acknowledged).
    I have also never felt ashamed of being a "P", or even an I (even with others suggesting I'm really an E). I guess it's F and P together that I'm avoiding, because F and P are generally more "friendly", while T and J are more critical, and I think I am mixed, and have more of a critical streak than an FP (but not as much as a TJ, of course). Hence, why the FP's don't seem to fit. Then, there's FJ, but I obviously do not prefer Fe like that.
    Also, especially for ENPs, our thinking and feeling functions are one after the other. My Fi is auxillary, but my Te directly afterwards, as my tertiary function. So, yes, while I prefer Feeling, I also utilise Thinking frequently, so even though I am most certainly a Feeling-type, it's not really that simple. In fact, I would probably say I am more aware of my use of Te than I am of my use of Fi, probably by virtue of it being extraverted.
    So ENFP's look like these big "thinkers", and it's heavy Te use, but they're not quite like TJ's? (Hence why some assign me to that type).
    From the most of the profiles I see, they look little different from ESFP's, and they're just fun-loving "salesman" types; with the addition of "causes".
    Since I think we're pretty sure you use both Ti and Te, which would you say is your preferred type of feeling? Fi or Fe?
    Again, I originally thought Fi, but I really think that deep down inside, Fe is a bit more preferred. Again, I think I really messed it up on that test, because I came out with Fe "unused" (while Fi was second highest), but it was after this that I began rethinking it all, and I do have more of a desire to connect with groups, (though it is nonpreferred, and less developed) than deciding what's personally important to me. Again, I actually have no preference for things a lot of the times, unless it's some negative issue. All that Fi could well be "devilish".
    Of course, if you turn out ENFP, we always come out using both strongly. ><
    ENFP's use both Fi and Fe? I guess Fe would be higher up in the shadow range (the "critical parent"), but I'm not sure what that actually appears like in real life.

  9. #79
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yeah, right here, earlier in this thread:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...fp-infp-5.html
    Oh, duh. I'm obviously paying a whole lot of attention!

    Fi may be higher than Ti, but Ti surpasses Te. It's so mixed up, that the results make me both INFP type, and Theoristtemperament!

    Again, I think that this test is showing "active shadows". Everyone's looking at how much a person appears to use a function in outward interactions, but that really doesn't necessarily mean it is their true preference, as defined by the Jung/Myers system.

    It would be nice if this test could detect the actual purposes (archetypal roles) of the functions. I may use a lot of Fi, but again, the more I think of it (including continuing daily uses of it), it is more negative, and both Fi and Te seem to be associated with stress.
    How confusing!

    And yes, I definitely agree that it would be more helpful if the test measured actual use as opposed to apparent use, but I don't think that's even possible! MBTI is a little bit difficult at times, because it deals with unconscious and inherant processes. Kiersey, in comparison, is more about behaviour, I think, and thus would (hopefully) be that much easier to quantify, because you can actually see it happen.

    I find it quite difficult to put a finger on all this stuff I do unconsciously. Sometimes I don't realise I even do such a thing until I catch myself in the act, or someone else mentions that they do it. So it's a lot about self-awareness, too.

    I thought that would be something that would be very personal. For my wife, it certainly was. People always judge by how the place and the area makes them feel. For me, it would be more personal if I saw something I particularly liked that met my criterion for the house/neighborhoods I've always wanted.
    Well, I can't speak from experience, so perhaps I'm underestimating the amount of influence a 'good feeling about the place' would make on your decision, but I'm pretty sure it's a decision that can't really be made purely with Feeling, regardless of your preferences. So it's a bit of a murky middle ground.

    But especially with relationships and interpersonal stuff, decisions made and actions taken can be much more one-sided approach. Which will hopefully give clues as to your natural preference.

    OK, that gives me an idea of the kid of thing the question is looking for. I'll think on it.
    Yep, let us know.

    Well before, (and including up to the time I took that cognitiveprocesses test), I think I actually leaned too much towards Fi. I thought I preferred "what's personally important" and stuff like that, but really thinking about it, I think I am more into abstract models and frameworks and stuff like that. Again, "importance" only seems to come up in stressful situations or negative moments.
    Couldn't that also match an INFPs mode of operating? They are generally fairly placid and easygoing, until something comes along and violates their values. A couple of quotes from type sites:

    Quote Originally Posted by Typelogic
    Their extreme depth of feeling is often hidden, even from themselves, until circumstances evoke an impassioned response
    Quote Originally Posted by PersonalityPage
    INFPs are flexible and laid-back, until one of their values is violated. In the face of their value system being threatened, INFPs can become aggressive defenders, fighting passionately for their cause.
    Perhaps that sort of thing may have caused you to associate Fi with negative situations? Only when you're being threatened does it really 'flare up' and become noticeable - other times you may simply not be aware you're using it?

    Maybe have a look at this site, if you haven't already? Their profiles are written from the POV of the person of that type, so can be much more accurate than ones written more theoretically.

    Meanwhile, I have always gotten the sense from the STJ background (and now my SFJ marriage) that "concrete reality" and J "seriousness" is the way you're "supposed" to be, but I have never felt ashamed of my obvious N preference. I even defended it when my wife and I were reveiwing my Step II subscale grades, and she thought I was the one who was more "concrete" (because of my skepticism towards charismatic Christianity, which she and our friends have moved towards. But with everything else, I'm clearly an "Extraterrestrial", and when I put it to her that way, this morning, she acknowledged).

    I have also never felt ashamed of being a "P", or even an I (even with others suggesting I'm really an E). I guess it's F and P together that I'm avoiding, because F and P are generally more "friendly", while T and J are more critical, and I think I am mixed, and have more of a critical streak than an FP (but not as much as a TJ, of course). Hence, why the FP's don't seem to fit. Then, there's FJ, but I obviously do not prefer Fe like that.
    No, me neither. I'm proud of being an NFP - I wouldn't want to be any other way! I may, however, be ever-so-slightly guilty of nudging my E/I score towards the E, when really I'm borderline.

    Of course, that may also be because I'm quite clearly an NFP - I've never doubted my scores on those functions.

    So ENFP's look like these big "thinkers", and it's heavy Te use, but they're not quite like TJ's? (Hence why some assign me to that type).
    From the most of the profiles I see, they look little different from ESFP's, and they're just fun-loving "salesman" types; with the addition of "causes".
    No, not exactly. ENFPs, when you meet them socially, tend to be bright and flighty and silly and whatever. There's no Te there. But when they're working, or studying, or doing something that requires them to settle down and be serious, then it's Te that we tend to slip into. Neither Ne nor Fi are very grounding, so we need something else to hold us down.

    So I wouldn't exactly say 'heavy' Te use, and obviously it depends on the individual, whether they've developed it enough, but we do slip in and out of using Te when the occasion warrants it, for example explaining a problem to somebody, or seriously debating a point, or just trying to get some work done.

    I suppose it's possible that someone who only knew an ENFP when they were hard at work and very focused, might mistake them for a TJ, but to be honest, it's difficult to stay in a Te mode for much longer than nessecary.

    For example, we tend to procrastinate and waste time and so on and so forth (*coughlikemerightnowcough*) until down to the very last moments. And then, due to sheer pressure, we 'click' into an intensely concentrated, very focused and very productive mode. I've worked at least 12 hours straight without much more than a 10-minute break for food before. Of course, I need to spend the next few days recovering, but still. It can be intense when Te is turned on properly.

    Te is what grounds us. Without well-developed Te, an ENFP can be flightier (and because of the N, spacier) than an ESFP, but when we've got that covered, it restrains us a little. And we can be sensible when the occasion calls for it.

    Again, I originally thought Fi, but I really think that deep down inside, Fe is a bit more preferred. Again, I think I really messed it up on that test, because I came out with Fe "unused" (while Fi was second highest), but it was after this that I began rethinking it all, and I do have more of a desire to connect with groups, (though it is nonpreferred, and less developed) than deciding what's personally important to me. Again, I actually have no preference for things a lot of the times, unless it's some negative issue. All that Fi could well be "devilish".
    Hmm, I don't know. See, I think I am probably more keen on connecting with people than deciding what's personally important to me, too. But I don't think that's really a measure of Fe/Fi.

    Fe is... you know those ladies who just seem to know everyone? Who approach you and ask after your brother and how's that renovation going and seem to remember all the names and major events in your life, even though they're not really very close to you normally. Who never fail to say hello to you if they see you, and always remember to send a christmas card? The ultimate small-talkers. That's Fe (or more specifically, Fe-dominant EFJ types).

    Naturally, Fe as a tertiary or inferior function is not going to appear in such a way, but still, the essence of it is the same.

    My INTP friend, for example, who has Fe as her inferior function, keeps a mental list of foods that we like or don't like. On occasion she tend forgets the specifics, and so has to remind herself by asking me: "Is it you or J that doesn't like white chocolate?" She's also quite good at remembering birthdays and puts effort into finding a decent gift.

    So you can sort of see how the inferior Fe peeks out from time to time.

    Also try to be careful that you're not influencing test results with what functions you believe you should have. It's difficult to do, once you've really started to delve into this stuff. For example, I do that test above? My results tend to come out perfectly ENFP unless I really spend ages determining what is actually me, as opposed what is what I want me to be, or what I think is me. Doing the regular MBTI tests now doesn't do me any good at all - I know exactly which dichotomy each question is testing.

    So, should you do take that test again, take care. It's too easy to rig the results.

    ENFP's use both Fi and Fe? I guess Fe would be higher up in the shadow range (the "critical parent"), but I'm not sure what that actually appears like in real life.
    No, we don't. We just appear to. Using that example of the Fe-ladies from before - ENFPs appear like them in the moment you're talking to us. We really are quite interested in what you got up to on the weekend and those tidbits of details from your life. Sure. But we're generally hopeless at remembering those details - I forget birthdays all the time. Unless I'm paying attention, I may accidentally ignore you next time you see me - not because I mean any harm, but simply because you're not in my sphere of awareness this time.

    So, on a test, when it asks questions like, do you: "Compassionately take on someone else's needs as your own." and "Help make people feel comfortable by engaging in hosting and care-taking." Well, yes. I do, when you're there in front of me, absolutely. I'm very accomodating and will definitely put your needs before mine.

    But that's not true Fe. It's what I mentioned before about ENFPs Ne+Fi=Apparent Fe. It comes up on tests, and it might fool you initially, but we don't use Fe.

    Does that make a sort of sense?
    ANFP:
    Extraversion (52%) ---- Introversion (48%)
    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

    9w1 so/sx/sp

  10. #80
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcticangel02 View Post
    How confusing!

    And yes, I definitely agree that it would be more helpful if the test measured actual use as opposed to apparent use, but I don't think that's even possible! MBTI is a little bit difficult at times, because it deals with unconscious and inherant processes. Kiersey, in comparison, is more about behaviour, I think, and thus would (hopefully) be that much easier to quantify, because you can actually see it happen.

    I find it quite difficult to put a finger on all this stuff I do unconsciously. Sometimes I don't realise I even do such a thing until I catch myself in the act, or someone else mentions that they do it. So it's a lot about self-awareness, too.
    Well, since I'm talking about the uses of the functions, which are probably driven unconsciously, then you would think an MBTI-based test would be more likely engineered to pick that up. Though since Cognitiveprocesses test is I believe by Berens, and which category does that really fall under? She's basically Keirseyan, but recombines his theory with MBTI ("the Mixed Model").

    But especially with relationships and interpersonal stuff, decisions made and actions taken can be much more one-sided approach. Which will hopefully give clues as to your natural preference.

    OK, that gives me an idea of the kind of thing the question is looking for. I'll think on it.
    Yep, let us know.
    Having dinner with my family last night, we recalled the time 20 years ago, when my father was having sewrious issues and taking it out on us. I was in my early 20's, and stuck in minimum wage jobs that did not pay enough for me to get out on my own. So he was harassing me about that, often drunk. (This is one of those times I was getting an overload of Te style thrown my way).

    So after losing one of these jobs one afternoon, I just walked to the Times Sq. recruiting center and signed up for the Air Force.

    That's perhaps the biggest "family"-related decision I made, though that also seemed to be something a lot of people did.
    Couldn't that also match an INFPs mode of operating? They are generally fairly placid and easygoing, until something comes along and violates their values. A couple of quotes from type sites:

    Perhaps that sort of thing may have caused you to associate Fi with negative situations? Only when you're being threatened does it really 'flare up' and become noticeable - other times you may simply not be aware you're using it?

    Maybe have a look at this site, if you haven't already? Their profiles are written from the POV of the person of that type, so can be much more accurate than ones written more theoretically.
    I thought about that too, but still, as the dominant or "hero" function, I would think it would have more of a positive connotation a lot of the times; at least when they think of it outside of the negative reaction. A lot of times, it is hard for me to make Fi judgments, and I end up indifferent to things, or look for a logical reason for a decision.

    Again, the Fi/Ti distinction, as well as "negative use of primary function vs positive use of shadow function" seems to be very fuzzy. Ti really does not seem to have any of that negative connotation, or something that comes up mostly under stress, and then is basically misused, or "destructuve". This is what came to mind first, and then when I looked at Fi (and Te) to compare, it was like yeah; those are what seem to have more of a strictly negative association).

    No, me neither. I'm proud of being an NFP - I wouldn't want to be any other way! I may, however, be ever-so-slightly guilty of nudging my E/I score towards the E, when really I'm borderline.

    Of course, that may also be because I'm quite clearly an NFP - I've never doubted my scores on those functions.
    Well, like Keirsey said, E/I is the least important dichotomy. Looking at the functions, two types with only an E/I difference willhave the same primary functions, in a different order (types with totally opposite T/F + J/P will have the same functions as well, but they'll be totally reversed, and this is what you all call the "shadow")
    No, not exactly. ENFPs, when you meet them socially, tend to be bright and flighty and silly and whatever. There's no Te there. But when they're working, or studying, or doing something that requires them to settle down and be serious, then it's Te that we tend to slip into. Neither Ne nor Fi are very grounding, so we need something else to hold us down.

    So I wouldn't exactly say 'heavy' Te use, and obviously it depends on the individual, whether they've developed it enough, but we do slip in and out of using Te when the occasion warrants it, for example explaining a problem to somebody, or seriously debating a point, or just trying to get some work done.

    I suppose it's possible that someone who only knew an ENFP when they were hard at work and very focused, might mistake them for a TJ, but to be honest, it's difficult to stay in a Te mode for much longer than nessecary.

    For example, we tend to procrastinate and waste time and so on and so forth (*coughlikemerightnowcough*) until down to the very last moments. And then, due to sheer pressure, we 'click' into an intensely concentrated, very focused and very productive mode. I've worked at least 12 hours straight without much more than a 10-minute break for food before. Of course, I need to spend the next few days recovering, but still. It can be intense when Te is turned on properly.

    Te is what grounds us. Without well-developed Te, an ENFP can be flightier (and because of the N, spacier) than an ESFP, but when we've got that covered, it restrains us a little. And we can be sensible when the occasion calls for it.
    Everyone claims to be seeing "heavy" Te with me. Others say ENFP (though I'm not really "flighty" and stuff like that, though I can be occasionally, with close friends), and a few of you are suggesting INFP. For that type, Te is even lower, in the inferior position (and bordering on "shadow"). Online, such as these discussions, is basically recreation for me, although I am "into it", and often rushed if I have to go to work or bed, or something else, like you described above (and then the board/site starts freezing down on top of it:steam

    Hmm, I don't know. See, I think I am probably more keen on connecting with people than deciding what's personally important to me, too. But I don't think that's really a measure of Fe/Fi.

    Fe is... you know those ladies who just seem to know everyone? Who approach you and ask after your brother and how's that renovation going and seem to remember all the names and major events in your life, even though they're not really very close to you normally. Who never fail to say hello to you if they see you, and always remember to send a christmas card? The ultimate small-talkers. That's Fe (or more specifically, Fe-dominant EFJ types).

    Naturally, Fe as a tertiary or inferior function is not going to appear in such a way, but still, the essence of it is the same.

    My INTP friend, for example, who has Fe as her inferior function, keeps a mental list of foods that we like or don't like. On occasion she tend forgets the specifics, and so has to remind herself by asking me: "Is it you or J that doesn't like white chocolate?" She's also quite good at remembering birthdays and puts effort into finding a decent gift.

    So you can sort of see how the inferior Fe peeks out from time to time.
    I think I'm a lot like that, and again, underestimated it.
    Also try to be careful that you're not influencing test results with what functions you believe you should have. It's difficult to do, once you've really started to delve into this stuff. For example, I do that test above? My results tend to come out perfectly ENFP unless I really spend ages determining what is actually me, as opposed what is what I want me to be, or what I think is me. Doing the regular MBTI tests now doesn't do me any good at all - I know exactly which dichotomy each question is testing.

    So, should you do take that test again, take care. It's too easy to rig the results.
    I'm quite aware of that, and I have noted it is becoming harder to take these tests. In the test my wife administers, they clearly say the person should now know too much about it, else, it will be compromised. (I used to start talking about it with friends she was planning to test, and she would tell me not to do that. I put a big warning up on the beginning of my page describing the theory).

    What I meant, was, since I still have my choices I made on both that and the Step II subscales, to just review and see if I might have scored to high or low on them. Again, I was letting my wife look a the Step II, and I'm sure she will say I scored too high on the T/F scales. She already said that for E over I.
    No, we don't. We just appear to. Using that example of the Fe-ladies from before - ENFPs appear like them in the moment you're talking to us. We really are quite interested in what you got up to on the weekend and those tidbits of details from your life. Sure. But we're generally hopeless at remembering those details - I forget birthdays all the time. Unless I'm paying attention, I may accidentally ignore you next time you see me - not because I mean any harm, but simply because you're not in my sphere of awareness this time.

    So, on a test, when it asks questions like, do you: "Compassionately take on someone else's needs as your own." and "Help make people feel comfortable by engaging in hosting and care-taking." Well, yes. I do, when you're there in front of me, absolutely. I'm very accomodating and will definitely put your needs before mine.
    Now, I have my Fe Dom. wife who will do all that stuff. So it's like I have fallen off on Fe. But I'm remembering that I was more into remembering people's birthdays, and such before her.
    But that's not true Fe. It's what I mentioned before about ENFPs Ne+Fi=Apparent Fe. It comes up on tests, and it might fool you initially, but we don't use Fe.

    Does that make a sort of sense?
    So what is different; the motivation? Fi/Fe can also be another fuzzy distinction. In one of Hartzler's exercises (Fi7), it appears to involve connecting with others. But then this is supposedly about looking at their values in light of your own.

    I would imagine it's the Golden Rule vs. the Platinum Rule. Fi does to others what they want done to themselves, while Fe does to others purely what they want, or the values of the whole group. So I guess the ENFP in your example of "apparent Fe" is just being nice because they want others to be nice to them?
    I seem to be able to go either way with that, but I remember being a bit more into others' needs when doing something for them, before life started getting rough.

    So what is Ti really like for an ENFP? It's supposed to be "trickster", meaning they are not normally into principles or categories, but under stress may become rigid about selected principles thinking it will ensure sucess when it wont. Do you have any examples of this?

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