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Thread: ENFP/INFP

  1. #51
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, for one thing; I'm reading more about the functions as all of this is going on, and thinking about it, and then realizing how much I tend to use one over the other. Sometimes as you know, it's hard to know the difference between not only Te and Ti, but also Fi and Ti. So I might read a description or a test question and say "yeah, I do that", but I still could have mistaken a "principle" for a "value" (the line between them is often blurry, or a function projected outward from one turned inward.

    The only test that suggested ENFP was my taking the 20 Step II (EAR) subscales and scoring them (from 0-10) directly (at the request of someone I was discussing my type with. And he thought I was INTP until that). But now I looking back over it, I may have overestimated the Feeling questions and underestimated the Thinking ones. Already, I had one out-of-pattern subscale (OOPS), Questioning over Accomodating. This I believe is part of the "Choleric" aspect of my personality that is lacking in the ENFP profile, and is more NTish.

    The "only "expert" was a type coach on one of the boards, and as I said, she let too much of her own issues into it to be totally objective. She "had" to prove I was ENFP so she could say the "puer" (Te) brought out her "witch". I listened to her since she really seemed to know this stuff a lot, but ultimately, as even she said, only I can determine my type, and people of course are looking at what is seen on the outside, but sometimes what is inside can be different. Plus, I have been under a lot of stress lately, and I think things might be a bit skewed, as I look back deeply over which functions I really have gravitated to over the course of my life.

    The ultimate reason I have preferred an NT type over NF is because the NT's are pragmatic and Structure-oriented (Keirsey and Berens' terms, respectively), while NF is cooperative and motive oriented; and the former is what would describe me better. I may weigh things and behave cooperatively, but my gut instinct and inclination is pragmatic, with a logical "structure". This also seemed to match my being "Choleric" in the area of leadership and responsibilites. The ENFP seemed to lack this key aspect of my personality. Yes, this may tie into my own theory as to how two systems tie together, but I did try to remain objective, and seriously looked into ENFP, but it just did not completely fit, and then when I better grasped what the Ti traits were, and remembered how much I actually use and enjoy them (frameworks, leverage points, etc), it became more clear that that is really more preferred, and Te is the real "shadow" function I learned as a defense mechanism, from being surreounded by it when I was younger.

    In the temperament analysis I use, I fall into a fifth temperament who "expresses" as an introvert, and "responds" as an extrovert. (It is the one in the upper left of my avatar). Expression is what we "say" we want (so he looks like an introvert aho avoids people) yet responsiveness is what we "really" want, so his wants are the same as an extrovert. That would partially explain this, and it can apparently fall into any NP (informing) type. (ENTP is also said to be an introverted extrovert).

    That's basically what the coach was saying. That's why I didn't dispute at first, but after doing a lot of reflection, it seems this is more of a defense mechanism to try to be heard. I do process it inside first. It's like I do both, but I have learned to try to present it to the outside world also. And apparently, I'm not very good at it, or at least not very effective; suggesting that Te is not a naturally preferred process at all; depsite what the coach was seeing.

    I thought of that. (I didn't dislike the fluffiness; I was just looking for a more intellectual discussion of the theories at the time). Still, it seems there is a fundamental type difference. I seem to have more intellectual chemistry with INTP's such as Xander and others than any ENFP I have run across.
    I have always had a tendency to be like that (in intellectual matters, at least), though I have always had someone around to correct me to not be like that, and it has increased my "conscience" in that area. That's another reason I seem to fit that type better, and that any Fi and Te was learned from the environment.


    OK' I'll have to think on that one. What to use as a good example.
    Than any "enfp" you have run across. Oh, when will people stop with that crap? You're talking about people on online chat groups right?

    uhh, hey, yes, Vicky Jo has also helped me with my type. I find that the archetypes ARE usefull. If a certian archetype got triggered, someone was using that process to some degree.

    It's interesting that you speak of 'intellectual chemistry'. The beginning of the Berens+Nardi description of ENFP says that relationships for ENFPs are about 'being on the same wavelength'.

    ENFPS ARE choleric in the temperment models, in the temperment model, choleric=idealist.

    Ok, I see you were 'out of preference' for one of the facets in the MBTI step two. I only keep a copy of the sample 'step two interactive report' to remind myself what a useless piece of junk it is. I am probably 'off preference' on most of the thinking-feeling 'facets'. What-ever.

    hmm. I have to admit that I am totally not convinced by your analysis. And you are still using Te!! You are zooming through the material, and there's 'underestimate this', 'overestimate that'. You're still throwing the numbers around, and adding this and subtracting that. I can picture it. There's a room with all these dials and gauges, and that's Te. And you're (puer?) Te thinks it knows what each of those gauges is, but you need to be just a bit more carefull, and you have made some mistakes and read some of the dials wrong. I remember doing that kind of assuming I got-it Te- and of course it's not neccesarily verbalized. When I got into trouble with extraverted thinking was when I used to assume I could do math in my head, and skip writing down stuff that way. I also used to write horrible papers because I never kept a logical connection going between paragraphs, and when I got Cs I'd defend myself with "they must be pretending not to get it". On the other hand, there is almost NO Ti in what you wrote. You don't pause or mull over any definitions. Instead it's This reason+this reason+this reason= NTP, which, ironically, signals Te very clearly to me.

    And if you can relate to this, then you might have trickster Ti: when I watched "The sting", I thought it was an entertaining movie, but the 20s crime jargon drove me nuts. I had no idea what the characters were talking about some of the time, and at some points I was stopping the movie every few minutes to ask what one of those words meant.

    What do you think?

  2. #52
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    No one can or should tell you your type, especially from a forum. Even if they know you intimately, this is a life lesson only you can decide on. If you are merely stuck between the two NFPs, then you may ask yourself whether your interaction style is more:
    Behind-the-Scenes

    The theme is getting the best result possible. People of this style focus on understanding and working with the process to create a positive outcome. They see value in many contributions and consult outside inputs to make an informed decision. They aim to integrate various information sources and accommodate differing points of view. They approach others with a quiet, calm style that may not show their strong convictions. Producing, sustaining, defining, and clarifying are all ways they support a group's process. They typically have more patience than most with the time it takes to gain support through consensus for a project or to refine the result.
    -OR-
    Get-Things-Going

    The theme is persuading and involving others. They thrive in facilitator or catalyst roles and aim to inspire others to move to action, facilitating the process. Their focus is on interaction, often with an expressive style. They Get-Things-Going with upbeat energy, enthusiasm, or excitement, which can be contagious. Exploring options and possibilities, making preparations, discovering new ideas, and sharing insights are all ways they get people moving along. They want decisions to be participative and enthusiastic, with everyone involved and engaged.
    Although most of us fall in between on the functions, you should be able to discern one or the other.

  3. #53
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Than any "enfp" you have run across. Oh, when will people stop with that crap? You're talking about people on online chat groups right?
    I know that's not a perfect measure, but for starters, it does give an idea of which type I gravitate to more.

    uhh, hey, yes, Vicky Jo has also helped me with my type.

    It's interesting that you speak of 'intellectual chemistry'. The beginning of the Berens+Nardi description of ENFP says that relationships for ENFPs are about 'being on the same wavelength'.
    Maybe, but then Ti types like "expert relationships" as well. I thought I favored the NF's "connection" better, (and indicated this on tests) and I may like the idea of it a lot, but in an area like this, I really do prefer the expertise. That's how I could even continue to respect VJ, for her expertise.

    ENFPS ARE choleric in the temperment models, in the temperment model, choleric=idealist.
    And this is the one area where I believe Keirsey was wrong. (Though it wasn't really an integral element of his theory; it was just a passing reference to maintain the continuity with ancient temperament theory). Cholerics are more Thinking than Feeling. Clearly, the NT's desire for "mastery" and "competence" is more a Choleric trait than the NF, which got the Choleric tag simply because of its "exciteability". The NF's desire for connection with others is also not Choleric. Cholerics generally reject people.

    So that's why I do not seem to fit into any of the NF's. It was only the cognitive dynamics approach that possibly suggested it, but after thinking on this for some time, I again now think that has been skewed by circumstances.

    Ok, I see you were 'out of preference' for one of the facets in the MBTI step two. I only keep a copy of the sample 'step two interactive report' to remind myself what a useless piece of junk it is. I am probably 'off preference' on most of the thinking-feeling 'facets'. What-ever.
    It breaks all this down into smaller parts. The smaller the parts, the more accuracy you will get. It's like in trying to understand the universe. First, they said atoms. then, they broke it down into quarks. More recently, it is strings, and they continue to ask if anything is more fundamental than that. If I have that OOPS, it's good for that to be pointed out; else, the traits it is picking up will always cast a question mark over the type.
    (And breaking things down into smaller parts is supposed to be a Ti thing. You may not like it, but it makes perfect sense to me, and this is the sort of thing that is pointing more towards Ti than whatever "thinking" I might appear to be extraverting).
    hmm. I have to admit that I am totally not convinced by your analysis. And you are still using Te!! You are zooming through the material, and there's 'underestimate this', 'overestimate that'. You're still throwing the numbers around, and adding this and subtracting that. I can picture it. There's a room with all these dials and gauges, and that's Te. And you're (puer?) Te thinks it knows what each of those gauges is, but you need to be just a bit more carefull, and you have made some mistakes and read some of the dials wrong. I remember doing that kind of assuming I got-it Te- and of course it's not neccesarily verbalized. On the other hand, there is almost NO Ti in what you wrote. You don't pause or mull over any definitions. Instead it's This reason+this reason+this reason= NTP, which, ironically, signals Te very clearly to me.
    OK, "pausing" and "mulling"? Aren't those more internal processes? You're not going to see that! But that doesn't mean I am not pausing and mulling over it first, before I write down whatever. (and a lot of my time making posts, especially big ones, is rushed, so that affects the writing as well).

    And then I do have to express it somehow. And the way I have basically taught myself to express things is through the Te model (I never said I wasn't using it at all!), because that's what I became so used to in seeing others around me express logic.
    Like Ti types never speak of underestimating or overestimating, or "throw numbers", add and subtract, put things together, charts, etc.? Most of the great theorists in this area are Ti types, and you can find all of this in their books (unless they have a Te type come in and do all of that for them). So that does not prove that it is my primary thinking process.

    As for the "dials/guages", when VJ first said something like that (and you are sounding so much like her, in using these analogies to generalize specific behaviors into a whole preference), I went along with it, but after thinking on all of this, it is clear that I did not just enter a room of dials and just start turning them or assigning stuff. For over a year, I intensely analyzed this stuff, read every type and function description I could find, compared types, looked for common threads in the comparisons, basically, broke it down to see how it works, and most importantly measured it according to a framework I had internalized (expressive and responsive behavior). I then gradually worked out the correlations I have suggested. I then announced it at one point on the other board.
    So maybe it looked like I just popped in and started organizing, segmenting, sorting and applying logic, but once again, you're not seeing the entire internal process that went before that. (And I'm doing all of this alone, so whatever "Te" work has to be done, I have to do myself). And remember, as someone had pointed out; an ENTP can look like a Te user because of the Ne acting out Ti's conclusions. (Again; I'm not arguing the E/I preference now). The "thinking" therefore appears to get "extraverted" to those it is being discussed with.

    You can't always look at outside behavior. Because behavior can be learned, and there are "masks" people wear. And even in type theory, I see it is taught that stress can bring out a person's shadows. One person even mentioned to me the notion of an "active shadow", and I wish I could find more out about it, but the searches don't put together the two words. Again, Te (and Fi) seems more the "shadowy" function that I have just learned in defense (an "oppositional" stance. And defending ideas is basically a sort of defensive position. Yet other writings, people do say are Ti-ish).
    When I got into trouble with extraverted thinking was when I used to assume I could do math in my head, and skip writing down stuff that way. I also used to write horrible papers because I never kept a logical connection going between paragraphs, and when I got Cs I'd defend myself with "they must be pretending not to get it".
    So as pertaining to Te vs Ti, are you saying that Te needs to write it down (and Ti does not)? And Te doesn't keep logical connections?

    And if you can relate to this, then you might have trickster Ti: when I watched "The sting", I thought it was an entertaining movie, but the 20s crime jargon drove me nuts. I had no idea what the characters were talking about some of the time, and at some points I was stopping the movie every few minutes to ask what one of those words meant.

    What do you think?
    I don't think I have had that kind of problem with things. It may happen once in a while, but I can generally get meanings from the contexts.

    I had wondered about Ti being "trickster". According to Berens, "they are usually not interested in identifying principles or categorizing, but under stress, they tend to be deceived into engaging, accepting and rigidly following selected principles, thinking that doing so will ensure success, when really it won't. ...Yet at times they can delight in exploring models and frameworks". That would seem to fit right into VJ's assessment (even though she did not even come right out and say this part of it), yet again, people cannot see the internal processes, and neither my whole lifetime of processes, which I have been remembering in light of this more and more, especially as I come to understand it more. Models and frameworks are what I have always used and delight in most of the time, and clearly, it is the Te that seems to be more associated with "stress". This is why I have recently gone back on accepting ENFP as the type.
    The descriptions of the NTP's "shadowy" use of it fits me better than the ENFP's "relief" use, which seems much better at establishing order than I am. I once confessed to liking organizing, but I seem to seem to like the idea of it better than I can actually do it.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I know that's not a perfect measure, but for starters, it does give an idea of which type I gravitate to more.



    Maybe, but then Ti types like "expert relationships" as well. I thought I favored the NF's "connection" better, (and indicated this on tests) and I may like the idea of it a lot, but in an area like this, I really do prefer the expertise. That's how I could even continue to respect VJ, for her expertise.
    And this is the one area where I believe Keirsey was wrong. (Though it wasn't really an integral element of his theory; it was just a passing reference to maintain the continuity with ancient temperament theory). Cholerics are more Thinking than Feeling. Clearly, the NT's desire for "mastery" and "competence" is more a Choleric trait than the NF, which got the Choleric tag simply because of its "exciteability". The NF's desire for connection with others is also not Choleric. Cholerics generally reject people.

    So that's why I do not seem to fit into any of the NF's. It was only the cognitive dynamics approach that possibly suggested it, but after thinking on this for some time, I again now think that has been skewed by circumstances.

    It breaks all this down into smaller parts. The smaller the parts, the more accuracy you will get. It's like in trying to understand the universe. First, they said atoms. then, they broke it down into quarks. More recently, it is strings, and they continue to ask if anything is more fundamental than that. If I have that OOPS, it's good for that to be pointed out; else, the traits it is picking up will always cast a question mark over the type.
    (And breaking things down into smaller parts is supposed to be a Ti thing. You may not like it, but it makes perfect sense to me, and this is the sort of thing that is pointing more towards Ti than whatever "thinking" I might appear to be extraverting).

    OK, "pausing" and "mulling"? Aren't those more internal processes? You're not going to see that! But that doesn't mean I am not pausing and mulling over it first, before I write down whatever. (and a lot of my time making posts, especially big ones, is rushed, so that affects the writing as well).

    And then I do have to express it somehow. And the way I have basically taught myself to express things is through the Te model (I never said I wasn't using it at all!), because that's what I became so used to in seeing others around me express logic.
    Like Ti types never speak of underestimating or overestimating, or "throw numbers", add and subtract, put things together, charts, etc.? Most of the great theorists in this area are Ti types, and you can find all of this in their books (unless they have a Te type come in and do all of that for them). So that does not prove that it is my primary thinking process.

    As for the "dials/guages", when VJ first said something like that (and you are sounding so much like her, in using these analogies to generalize specific behaviors into a whole preference), I went along with it, but after thinking on all of this, it is clear that I did not just enter a room of dials and just start turning them or assigning stuff. For over a year, I intensely analyzed this stuff, read every type and function description I could find, compared types, looked for common threads in the comparisons, basically, broke it down to see how it works, and most importantly measured it according to a framework I had internalized (expressive and responsive behavior). I then gradually worked out the correlations I have suggested. I then announced it at one point on the other board.
    So maybe it looked like I just popped in and started organizing, segmenting, sorting and applying logic, but once again, you're not seeing the entire internal process that went before that. (And I'm doing all of this alone, so whatever "Te" work has to be done, I have to do myself). And remember, as someone had pointed out; an ENTP can look like a Te user because of the Ne acting out Ti's conclusions. (Again; I'm not arguing the E/I preference now). The "thinking" therefore appears to get "extraverted" to those it is being discussed with.

    You can't always look at outside behavior. Because behavior can be learned, and there are "masks" people wear. And even in type theory, I see it is taught that stress can bring out a person's shadows. One person even mentioned to me the notion of an "active shadow", and I wish I could find more out about it, but the searches don't put together the two words. Again, Te (and Fi) seems more the "shadowy" function that I have just learned in defense (an "oppositional" stance. And defending ideas is basically a sort of defensive position. Yet other writings, people do say are Ti-ish).
    So as pertaining to Te vs Ti, are you saying that Te needs to write it down (and Ti does not)? And Te doesn't keep logical connections?

    I don't think I have had that kind of problem with things. It may happen once in a while, but I can generally get meanings from the contexts.

    I had wondered about Ti being "trickster". According to Berens, "they are usually not interested in identifying principles or categorizing, but under stress, they tend to be deceived into engaging, accepting and rigidly following selected principles, thinking that doing so will ensure success, when really it won't. ...Yet at times they can delight in exploring models and frameworks". That would seem to fit right into VJ's assessment (even though she did not even come right out and say this part of it), yet again, people cannot see the internal processes, and neither my whole lifetime of processes, which I have been remembering in light of this more and more, especially as I come to understand it more. Models and frameworks are what I have always used and delight in most of the time, and clearly, it is the Te that seems to be more associated with "stress". This is why I have recently gone back on accepting ENFP as the type.
    The descriptions of the NTP's "shadowy" use of it fits me better than the ENFP's "relief" use, which seems much better at establishing order than I am. I once confessed to liking organizing, but I seem to seem to like the idea of it better than I can actually do it.
    Dang, where did you get that Beren's quote? I'll have to get the book that has that quote. That is spot on!

    As for temperments, you should probably forget about what you thought the ancient temperment stuff meant. When people talk about temperments in terms of type theory, they are thinking of something very different. By now they are different ideas (so there's no house of cards for your (trickster?) Ti to knock down. I'm not trying to agressively type you, but can you relate to that? That's how I sometimes use Ti in a tricky way- if I don't like an idea I often try to find the right string to pull to make it collapse, in a very agressive and intentional way.) I know that's what choleric is supposed to mean, that's how Rudolph Stiener followers use it.. so what.

    So how do you think NFs would act, in terms of the 'ancient' temperment stuff? (yes, this is a trap).


    I am not saying anything about Ti or Te and logical connections with my anecdote, I was just wondering if that ever matched your experience.

    Yes, the smaller the parts, the more INNaccuracy you will get. For instance, there's those supply and demand curves, but that's an artificial situation. In real markets, there's a zero profit tendency.

    Those 'facets' are untrue anyway. And it's not like they naturally extrapolate from the theory in any way. (really, they don't)(by the theory I MEAN the cognitive processes)

  5. #55
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Dang, where did you get that Beren's quote? I'll have to get the book that has that quote. That is spot on!
    Understanding Yourself and Others, An Introduction to the Personality Type Code. ENFP (and ESFP) profiles, side bar for shadow functions.
    Right after the discusssion of me being ENFP, I wanted to learn more about the congnitive fynamics, and began ordering the Berens books (and also the one on Temperament, Interaction Style, and Cognitive Processes, and also Hartzler's and finally Nardi's book. All of that helped me understand the functions better, and more recently led me to question whether I really prefer Te over Ti.
    As for temperments, you should probably forget about what you thought the ancient temperment stuff meant. When people talk about temperments in terms of type theory, they are thinking of something very different. By now they are different ideas (so there's no house of cards for your (trickster?) Ti to knock down. I'm not trying to agressively type you, but can you relate to that? That's how I sometimes use Ti in a tricky way- if I don't like an idea I often try to find the right string to pull to make it collapse, in a very agressive and intentional way.) I know that's what choleric is supposed to mean, that's how Rudolph Stiener followers use it.. so what.

    So how do you think NFs would act, in terms of the 'ancient' temperment stuff? (yes, this is a trap).
    I also followed the history of temperament theory. The four temperaments, originally believed to stem from the influence of body fluids ("humors"), and later realized were not, were originally measured in terms of a person's "response-time delay" and "response-time sustain". Long delay became introversion, and short delay became extraversion. Sustain comes down to us as Agreeableness, (and Informing-Directing) and can also be Eysenck's Neuroticism. This tells us how much a person holds on to negative emotions, and thus, how serious or "responsive" they are to others.

    Kant is the one who first introduced perception as a temperament factor. He called this recognition of Beauty or the Sublime. Where the older model paired Sanguine and Choleric as extroverts, Melancholic and Phlegmatic as introverts; Sanguine and Phlegmatic as short sustain, and Choleric and Melancholic as long sustain. So here, we had our original temperament matrix. Perception paired Sanguine and Melancholic as high "Beauty" (e.g. Sensory or concrete) and Choleric and Phlegmatic as low Beauty. Those "pairs" had formerly been diametrically opposite.

    This is where the rift between what you're calling "ancient" and "modern" (i.e. Keirseyan) temperament theory began. Kretschmer apparently picked this up, and came up with all new names and scales. Keirsey then used this model, and named them first after Greek gods, and then Plato's "four types of men" (the current names. And then Berens renamed them yet again). He mapped them to the MBTI groups that seemed to fit the descriptions. Yet now, we have Berens, who introduces another "four type" model also resembling the ancient temperaments. And this one uses the original extraversion and responsiveness (informing/directing) as its factors. The result, is that each of the 16 types shares one "Interaction Style", with one of Keirsey's "temperaments".

    So what it seems is that there are in fact two versions of the "four temperaments", and both come to play in defining the types.

    Now to pick up on other versions of temperament theory, you had many other systems using extraversion and responsiveness, such as Adler, Fromm, Marston (DiSC), Social Styles, etc. Berens compares several of these to her Interaction Styles model. Tim LaHaye repopularizes the original four temperaments and introduces 12 "blends" of them (SanMel, etc). These also result in 16 total combinations, though he does not seem to connect them to MBTI. (People now associate the original temperaments with Steiner, but he's 100 years ago, yet LaHaye is the one who seems to have brought them back for this generation. In the middle of that century, you had Eysenck, who used them with his new Neuroticism scale replacing responsiveness/(agreeableness). Both scales later become part of the Five Factor Model).
    FIRO-B used Expressed and Wanted scales in three areas (Inclusion, Control and Affection), to measure learned behavior, and not type. Yet another Christian theorist, Richard Arno, maps the ancient temperments to the system, and in the process discovers that the Phlegmatic is actually moderate in both scales, and the low E/high R range consititutes a fifth temperament. He calls it "Supine", because it is servant-like; liking people, but being shy. In the area of social skills, it may partly explain the apparent "introverted extraversion" of some people in E-NP types. Othwerwise, it probably fits in with the Phlegmatic in INP and ISF types. Other E/R-like matrices using moderate scores and a fifth type are Blake-Mouton, Jay Hall and TKI.

    So it is not "ancient" theory so much I am discussing. There seems to be one primary temperament theory, thought it has been updated in many ways, both in the names used, and its factors, and has split into two models, both cross-mapped to the 16 types of the MBTI. One uses expressiveness and responsiveness, and the other uses perception. This ends up measuring two different areas of our whole personality profile.

    What it looks like to me, is that the Interaction Styles correspond to the temperaments in the area of social interaction, and the Keirsey "conative" temperaments are leadership and responsibilities. (Two of the three areas covered by the FIRO system, basically, and also loosely matching LaHaye's blends). So they seem like two totally different "temperament" theories, one ancient and one modern, but the "ancient" one has been reborn in MBTI circles as the Interaction Styles.
    When you think of temperament, you basically think of social skills anyway. Yet the conative model is dealing with another area; one of "action", or leadership. That's why they seem so different. They're covering different aspects of the temperaments, and people are a blend of a social style and a leadership style, corresponding to the 16 types.

    So where NF would fit in that. It seems to be either a Phlegmatic or Supine in Control. The Supine would have more energy than the Phlegmatic, and does react if his [unspoken] needs for affirmation aren't met. So this could be the so-called "hyperesthetic" behavior of Kretschmer's character style. Keirsey linked the NF with "hyperesthetic" and NT with "anasthetic". The hyperesthetic is described as having "tender" sensibility, while the anasthetic has "active coldness, passive insensitivity, tenacity, stubborn willfulness", etc. Kant, however, had made both the Choleric and Phlegmatic "cold-blooded", but they were both "cold" in different ways. The Phlegmatic was "cold" in being sluggish (including emotionally), while the Choleric was "cold" in having specifically a lack of feeling. Keirsey linked the NT's lack of feeling with Phlegmatic, and the NF's starting out more peaceful, but then becoming exciteable as "Choleric".
    That's one thing that points to the temperament + interaction styles model as being two separate "areas" of the same four temperaments. What we are calling "temperament" (the "conative" model) is not about surface social skills (that's basically what the Interaction Styles are), but about "action" or leadership skills, so you don't look for necessarily the same surface behaviors (such as "coolness" or "exciteability") in naming the temperaments.

    There is also a moderate hybrid called Supine Phlegmatic, who has elements of both temperaments. The Phegmatic is diplomatic like the NF's skills set, (The NT was "logistical") and the Supine has a need for appreciation of his worth, like the NF's core needs of meaning and significance. The NT's need of mastery and competence is clearly the Choleric in Control.
    The most "choleric" are the NTJ's. In the NTP's, it is tempered by the "informing" interaction styles. The ENFJ is part Choleric because it is "In Charge". If NF were also Choleric, it would be a pure Choleric, but it is not, and rather the ENTJ "Fieldmarshall" is. The INFP certainly is not Choleric either. They may have angry reactions after awhile, but then every type does in one way or another. The INFP is slow with it, while the Choleric is famous for having a quick temper.

    With you, the Ti you mentioned is a shadowy thing, but with me, it is more prominent, even though you may not see it here that much.
    Yes, the smaller the parts, the more INNaccuracy you will get. For instance, there's those supply and demand curves, but that's an artificial situation. In real markets, there's a zero profit tendency.

    Those 'facets' are untrue anyway. And it's not like they naturally extrapolate from the theory in any way. (really, they don't)(by the theory I MEAN the cognitive processes)
    Yeah, well, just like them looking for smaller "fundamental" particles, more questions and apparent problems will come up in the theory. But still, the five subscales do seem to help by identifying where we do not fit a pattern.
    Last edited by Eric B; 06-02-2008 at 05:51 PM.

  6. #56
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Eric,

    Firstly don't believe them... clever ENFPs have an NT (or two) helping them out!!!
    It's true.


    *waits patiently for explosion in the distance*


    Oh and I think your type becomes more clear, INFP does fit well. Plus understanding NTs and "getting on with them" is more about honesty and being able to not take things personally more so than any other trait. See although I berrate Dom (well he is an ENFP and I've propped up his mental capacity for years... [damn it, still nothing]) but when engaged in converation I can usually point out flaws, mistakes and such till the cows come home and only after a couple of hours does he grow tired and start to bite (see they're all wussies in the end... *taps foot impatiently*). In fact, in direct relation to INFP, I have an INFP friend who comes over once each week. He used to bring over his latest ideas on a new setting for a game and I'd go through it with him and we'd discuss ideas. To start with he'd object to criticism but now he's totally comfortable with it, he uses my NT approach to counter balance his NFness.

    Anyhow...much waffling = NF doesn't necessarily oppose NT. (Esp ENFJ and ENTJ!!!)

    Also you have a certainty I'd associate with the INFP shadow (though that could be more background than personality wise).

    Sorry to cut short but gotta run...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Eric,

    Firstly don't believe them... clever ENFPs have an NT (or two) helping them out!!!
    It's true.


    *waits patiently for explosion in the distance*


    Oh and I think your type becomes more clear, INFP does fit well. Plus understanding NTs and "getting on with them" is more about honesty and being able to not take things personally more so than any other trait. See although I berrate Dom (well he is an ENFP and I've propped up his mental capacity for years... [damn it, still nothing]) but when engaged in converation I can usually point out flaws, mistakes and such till the cows come home and only after a couple of hours does he grow tired and start to bite (see they're all wussies in the end... *taps foot impatiently*). In fact, in direct relation to INFP, I have an INFP friend who comes over once each week. He used to bring over his latest ideas on a new setting for a game and I'd go through it with him and we'd discuss ideas. To start with he'd object to criticism but now he's totally comfortable with it, he uses my NT approach to counter balance his NFness.

    Anyhow...much waffling = NF doesn't necessarily oppose NT. (Esp ENFJ and ENTJ!!!)

    Also you have a certainty I'd associate with the INFP shadow (though that could be more background than personality wise).

    Sorry to cut short but gotta run...
    *explosion in the distance* happy now?

    I have had many learning-stuff friendships with NTs, but if any of them were to be so arrogant as to think that they were 'propping up my intelligence', they would not be a friend any more.

    You are somewhat right about one thing: ENFPS often need help with thinking when they're young. So, in my case, I needed good math teachers to be good at math.

    I also remember one time I was playing 'speed chess' (no strategy) with an ENFP friend (who by the way, was class salutatorian at the prep school I went to, and is very 'clever'). Well, the nerds moved in on us, and split up and took over the game (telling both of us which moves to make), and totally ruining it for me.

    So what though. One of those nerds was an arrogant jerk, and I never learned anything from him. In fact, if I don't like someone, I probably won't trust what they say anyway. When I've gotten in political arguements with theorists, I usually spend time looking up the 'facts' they've cited and finding them to be misrepresented or untrue.

    Anyway, ENFPs are already innately clever through extraverted intuition. Personally, my interest is in meteorology, and I've spent 8 years teaching myself meteorology concepts and weather forecasting strategies. And although I always look foward to the chance to ask a professor something about the weather, this is something that I've done on my own, and I have learned most of the stuff completely on my own. ENFPs already have plenty of mental capacity.

    And with type theory, a CATYLIST helped my with my type, and I learned almost all of the material on my own as a hobby interest. This is acually relelvent to what you wrote- the one frustration about type theory was for a while that I had nobody to talk about it with. So I looked around some internet forums, but the conversations were usually stupid or uninteresting. Frankly, I sometimes get bored with this group because people like you don't know nearly as much about psychological type as I have learned. You probably haven't read nearly the amount of material that I have, and yet you probably consider yourself some kind of expert. For crying out loud, you're even willing to throw around some vage, nonsense term like "NF-ness", and you probably think it sounds smart, when really it sounds very dumb.

    I suppose you can stop tapping your foot impatiently now. Dom (adressing dom): does it bother you that xander would write this kind of pompous, patronizing crap about you. You also sound a lot smarter than xander, and you're much more on target, and ironically, despite what xander claims, your posts are much better thought-out than his.

  8. #58
    Senior Member autumn's Avatar
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    Whoa! I've been kinda busy for a few days, and am now back. It's very interesting seeing all the branches of conversation this discussion has led to, but I am still wondering about what I asked about in the first post, namely that I have taken the KTS twice over the span of maybe eight years, and it has reliably typed me ENFP each time. The description seems to fit the best out of all sixteen, particularly with regard to when I was younger. Why then has pretty much every other indicator given an INFP result (with the exception of the actual MBTI, which I have never had the opportunity to take)?

    Anyone have an idea?

    autumn

  9. #59
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Understanding Yourself and Others, An Introduction to the Personality Type Code. ENFP (and ESFP) profiles, side bar for shadow functions.
    Right after the discusssion of me being ENFP, I wanted to learn more about the congnitive fynamics, and began ordering the Berens books (and also the one on Temperament, Interaction Style, and Cognitive Processes, and also Hartzler's and finally Nardi's book. All of that helped me understand the functions better, and more recently led me to question whether I really prefer Te over Ti.
    I also followed the history of temperament theory. The four temperaments, originally believed to stem from the influence of body fluids ("humors"), and later realized were not, were originally measured in terms of a person's "response-time delay" and "response-time sustain". Long delay became introversion, and short delay became extraversion. Sustain comes down to us as Agreeableness, (and Informing-Directing) and can also be Eysenck's Neuroticism. This tells us how much a person holds on to negative emotions, and thus, how serious or "responsive" they are to others.

    Kant is the one who first introduced perception as a temperament factor. He called this recognition of Beauty or the Sublime. Where the older model paired Sanguine and Choleric as extroverts, Melancholic and Phlegmatic as introverts; Sanguine and Phlegmatic as short sustain, and Choleric and Melancholic as long sustain. So here, we had our original temperament matrix. Perception paired Sanguine and Melancholic as high "Beauty" (e.g. Sensory or concrete) and Choleric and Phlegmatic as low Beauty. Those "pairs" had formerly been diametrically opposite.

    This is where the rift between what you're calling "ancient" and "modern" (i.e. Keirseyan) temperament theory began. Kretschmer apparently picked this up, and came up with all new names and scales. Keirsey then used this model, and named them first after Greek gods, and then Plato's "four types of men" (the current names. And then Berens renamed them yet again). He mapped them to the MBTI groups that seemed to fit the descriptions. Yet now, we have Berens, who introduces another "four type" model also resembling the ancient temperaments. And this one uses the original extraversion and responsiveness (informing/directing) as its factors. The result, is that each of the 16 types shares one "Interaction Style", with one of Keirsey's "temperaments".

    So what it seems is that there are in fact two versions of the "four temperaments", and both come to play in defining the types.

    Now to pick up on other versions of temperament theory, you had many other systems using extraversion and responsiveness, such as Adler, Fromm, Marston (DiSC), Social Styles, etc. Berens compares several of these to her Interaction Styles model. Tim LaHaye repopularizes the original four temperaments and introduces 12 "blends" of them (SanMel, etc). These also result in 16 total combinations, though he does not seem to connect them to MBTI. (People now associate the original temperaments with Steiner, but he's 100 years ago, yet LaHaye is the one who seems to have brought them back for this generation. In the middle of that century, you had Eysenck, who used them with his new Neuroticism scale replacing responsiveness/(agreeableness). Both scales later become part of the Five Factor Model).
    FIRO-B used Expressed and Wanted scales in three areas (Inclusion, Control and Affection), to measure learned behavior, and not type. Yet another Christian theorist, Richard Arno, maps the ancient temperments to the system, and in the process discovers that the Phlegmatic is actually moderate in both scales, and the low E/high R range consititutes a fifth temperament. He calls it "Supine", because it is servant-like; liking people, but being shy. In the area of social skills, it may partly explain the apparent "introverted extraversion" of some people in E-NP types. Othwerwise, it probably fits in with the Phlegmatic in INP and ISF types. Other E/R-like matrices using moderate scores and a fifth type are Blake-Mouton, Jay Hall and TKI.

    So it is not "ancient" theory so much I am discussing. There seems to be one primary temperament theory, thought it has been updated in many ways, both in the names used, and its factors, and has split into two models, both cross-mapped to the 16 types of the MBTI. One uses expressiveness and responsiveness, and the other uses perception. This ends up measuring two different areas of our whole personality profile.

    What it looks like to me, is that the Interaction Styles correspond to the temperaments in the area of social interaction, and the Keirsey "conative" temperaments are leadership and responsibilities. (Two of the three areas covered by the FIRO system, basically, and also loosely matching LaHaye's blends). So they seem like two totally different "temperament" theories, one ancient and one modern, but the "ancient" one has been reborn in MBTI circles as the Interaction Styles.
    When you think of tempermanent, you basically think of social skills anyway. Yet the conative model is dealing with another area; one of "action", or leadership. That's why they seem so different. They're covering different aspects of the temperaments, and people are a blend of a social style and a leadership style, corresponding to the 16 types.

    So where NF would fit in that. It seems to be either a Phlegmatic or Supine in Control. The Supine would have more energy than the Phlegmatic, and does react if his [unspoken] needs for affirmation aren't met. So this could be the so-called "hyperesthetic" behavior of Kretschmer's character style. Keirsey linked the NF with "hyperesthetic" and NT with "anasthetic". The hyperesthetic is described as having "tender" sensibility, while the anasthetic has "active coldness, passive insiensitivity, tenacity, stubborn willfulness, etc. Kant, however, had made both the Choleric and Phlegmatic "cold-blooded", but they were both "cold" in different ways. The Phlegmatic was "cold" in being sluggish, while the Choleric was "cold" in having a lack of feeling. Keirsey linked the NT's lack of feeling with Choleric, and the NF's starting out more peaceful, but then becoming exciteable as "choleric".
    That's one thing that points to the temperament + interaction styles model as being two separate "areas" of the same four temperaments. What we are calling "temperament" (the "conative" model) is not about surface social skills (that's basically what the Interaction Styles are), but about "action" or leadership skills, so you don't look for necessarily the same surface behaviors (such as "coolness" or "exciteability") in naming the temperaments.

    There is also a moderate hybrid called Supine Phlegmatic, who has elements of both temperaments. The Phegmatic is diplomatic like the NF's skills set, (The NT was "logistical") and the Supine has a need for appreciation of his worth, like the NF's core needs of meaning and significance. The NT's need of mastery and competence is clearly the Choleric in Control.
    The most "choleric" are the NTJ's. In the NTP's, it is tempered by the "informing" interaction styles. The ENFJ is part Choleric because it is "In Charge". If NF were also Choleric, it would be a pure Choleric, but it is not, and rather the ENTJ "Fieldmarshall" is. The INFP certainly is not Choleric either. They may have angry reactions after awhile, but then every type does in one way or another. The INFP is slow with it, while the Choleric is famous for having a quick temper.

    With you, the Ti you mentioned is a shadowy thing, but with me, it is more prominent, even though you may not see it here that much.

    Yeah, well, just like them looking for smaller "fundamental" particles, more questions and apparent problems will come up in the theory. But still, the five subscales do seem to help by identifying where we do not fit a pattern.

    if they were all based on temperment (or whatever you think the 'fundamental particle' is), then the theories would fit much nicer. However, they don't. Just because models look similar-ish (ish-ish-ish) doesn't mean they're going to be relevant to each other, or fit in such a predictably symmetric way. That's almost new age thinking. I mean, your body is made up of 75% water right? So shouldn't water respond to written messages and music? Y'know, water and the human body are *related*.

    You are also seriously oversimplifying stuff. There are directing and informing types in each temperment.

    Temperments correlating with the 5-factor model? Well 1, there's 4 temperments and 5 factors, two, the 5 factors are on a scale of good to bad, and the temperments aren't (that's a huge mess right there. I'll take that alone as a sign that the theories won't fit)

    Also 'mastery and competence' doesn't mean controlling a situation or even leadership. That doesn't logically extrapolate itself in any way

    What I'm trying to say is that you are engaging in quite a bit of conceptual stretching.

    And don't start falsifying type profiles to fit your theory. Psychological type stands well by itself. All INFPs have very quick tempers as kids, and they still do as adults no matter how emotionally contained they try to be (which is really just an unfortunate adaption to society).

    "and the Supine has a need for appreciation of his worth, like the NF's core needs of meaning and significance"

    This is the kind of stretch (way past the breaking point) I am talking about. I just read the definition of that. It's not a temperment. It's a one dimensional caricature. Temperment definitions have been changed to relate to psychological type, and if I were to describe the 4 temperments, I'd describe them in terms of psychological type. 'supine' has now relation to psychological type the way the new temperment descriptions do, and I can't even start on how little relation it has to reality. Heart of a servant? What is that? Some rediculous image that exists only in the minds of some old rich white guys.

    And, if you are not already pissed off by my tone try to consider that you are still using tons of Te.

  10. #60
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    *explosion in the distance* happy now?
    Well to be honest I thought it was more of a damp squib until I read on more. You have not been a disappointment
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    I have had many learning-stuff friendships with NTs, but if any of them were to be so arrogant as to think that they were 'propping up my intelligence', they would not be a friend any more.
    Oh I'm sure that should Dom feel that I did think that he'd be the first with the axe to remove my head. The thing is that I reckon we've both propped each other up at points.. in between the "heated discussions"
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    You are somewhat right about one thing: ENFPS often need help with thinking when they're young. So, in my case, I needed good math teachers to be good at math.
    I think that's true with any person.. possibly more so with an intuitive person so that their framework is correct. That's something I've found, an intuitive has a major problem if their framework is called into question. More so that a sensor who has one of their foundation facts disproven.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    I also remember one time I was playing 'speed chess' (no strategy) with an ENFP friend (who by the way, was class salutatorian at the prep school I went to, and is very 'clever'). Well, the nerds moved in on us, and split up and took over the game (telling both of us which moves to make), and totally ruining it for me.
    Chess was ruined for me early on... like before I was born. I always found all those rules and stuff really frustrating. It's one of those things I declared 'stupid' and never returned to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    So what though. One of those nerds was an arrogant jerk, and I never learned anything from him. In fact, if I don't like someone, I probably won't trust what they say anyway. When I've gotten in political arguements with theorists, I usually spend time looking up the 'facts' they've cited and finding them to be misrepresented or untrue.
    Also true. All the ENFPs I know have to trust your ability in a certain area before you really get their full attention. Otherwise the advice or opinion gets filtered so much it's often hard to tell if they actually heard you or just supplanted the words with something different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Anyway, ENFPs are already innately clever through extraverted intuition. Personally, my interest is in meteorology, and I've spent 8 years teaching myself meteorology concepts and weather forecasting strategies. And although I always look foward to the chance to ask a professor something about the weather, this is something that I've done on my own, and I have learned most of the stuff completely on my own. ENFPs already have plenty of mental capacity.
    Type never does determine mental capability. The whole ENFP weather girl idea though does bring a smile to my lips. Too many 'presentable' types doing the job. It could do with being more zany.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    And with type theory, a CATYLIST helped my with my type, and I learned almost all of the material on my own as a hobby interest. This is acually relelvent to what you wrote- the one frustration about type theory was for a while that I had nobody to talk about it with. So I looked around some internet forums, but the conversations were usually stupid or uninteresting. Frankly, I sometimes get bored with this group because people like you don't know nearly as much about psychological type as I have learned. You probably haven't read nearly the amount of material that I have, and yet you probably consider yourself some kind of expert. For crying out loud, you're even willing to throw around some vage, nonsense term like "NF-ness", and you probably think it sounds smart, when really it sounds very dumb.
    Not to be an INTP an all but you still seem touchy. I was being tongue in cheek and rushed. Give a guy a break. Besides I'd be the first to tell you that I'm no expert. I've read a bit and done some typing but I'm no qualified psychiatrist! Besides this is all just opinion. Really I wasn't trying to lay down law or anything... just expressing my thoughts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    I suppose you can stop tapping your foot impatiently now. Dom (adressing dom): does it bother you that xander would write this kind of pompous, patronizing crap about you. You also sound a lot smarter than xander, and you're much more on target, and ironically, despite what xander claims, your posts are much better thought-out than his.
    Oh he is a lot more intelligent at points than I can muster... quite a few points. Possibly that's partially why I keep him around. I mean a T like me certainly wouldn't associate with such random F types otherwise right?

    (Just a little cue for you, I've known Dom since school and most of my nearest and dearest friends, partners and family are Fs. Just because I don't have any particular bias though doesn't mean I have to sound like it... where would be the fun in that? )
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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