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Thread: ENFP/INFP

  1. #41
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    oh come on. I am teaching myself vector calculus right now (so that I can understand theoretical meteorology) , I just wrote paper on a book I read about economic development in China, and I've probably read more material on psychological types than you plan to read in your lifetime. I also read Lee Smolin's book "The trouble with physics" last year. So what if you didn't fit in with a discussion group, those people are there because they identify with the stereotype of ENFP. And I bet that only some are actually ENFPs.

    Now read the type caption under my name. Do you trust that?
    Well, I didn't say that no ENFP could ever get into intellectual things. (which is why I would even try on the type in the first place. I know with the Ne, they will have the capacity for it). Just the obvservation that my "thinking" seems to fit an NTP type more, yet the question that was raised was whether the thinking is preferred and introverted, or nonpreferred and extraverted.
    Last edited by Eric B; 05-24-2008 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I'm leaning more towards what I would call a "passive ENTP", for now. ENTP sounds a bit too "rambunctious" to be me (It's a SanChlor, after all, and expressive in both Inclsuion and Control!) but as my Inclusion is what has been called a "passive Sanguine", then my interaction style could be called "passive Get Things Going" (I also look at it as "hyper-Behind the Scenes"), and the type therefore is "passive ENTP". Thus I also have the I/E ambiguities, but I can live with those much better than the T/F issues of trying to fit into an ENFP.

    OK; that's a discussion on the archetypes. Those are really interesting, and what were used to type me as ENFP. But I believe people looked at outward behavior only. Mostly, it was a so-called "personality type coach" who is fluent in Beebe's concepts who insisted on ENFP, but I'm seeing now that her motivation was that all my theorizing rubbing her the wrong way, and she picked up Te in my discussions, which is in her shadow, and said it must have been in the puer (tertiary) position, making me seem like an E-FP. I took her word for it, and I did seem to relate to both Fi and Te, but now I'm thinking those are less natural (and actually in my shadow) than Ti. She has a way of interpreting everything that I think might be Ti either as Te, or a "trickster" Ti. I am after all, working with a framework (FIRO's E/R), that I am using to compare the two systems. She claims all this putting things together "like jigsaw pieces" is Te. Maybe some of it is. But looking back on my whole lifetime of thought, I think Ti stuff is much more natural to me, and Te is just something I learned in order to deal with all the Te types I grew up with, and to express my ideas (and this same person points out that American society is basically modeled after the ESTJ. Makes a lot of sense).

    Then, I also did a rough shortcut to the Step II subscales, which also suggested ENFP. But again, I think I may have graded them too highly on the "feeling" side, thinking that "values" were more important to me than they really are. It seems many things that seem like Fi values, with me really have some underlying intellectual framework behind them.

    So again, do my writings seem more Ti or Te to everyone?
    I have no idea, I do not manage to understand the differences between Ti and Te in any sense other than intuitively which could give me false info for sure.

    I'm surprised by your approach, several tests and experts have asserted that they think you are an ENFP, yet you strive to find evidence to call yourself ENTP and then add that you are unsure about the e/i preference. This suggests that you MAY have some personal preference as to which label you should be assigned to wear. Iw as wondering if you'd considered that?

    Other than that, as an ENFP I know I have values I believe in, and strongly, I also know I can ditch them when I 'think' it's important enough too. It causes problems at times, and so I end up second guessing which course of action I actually want to do most, the one my values suggest I WANT to do, or the one my brain suggests is BEST for me to do.

    Someone described the ENFP as the introverted-extrovert. Which is obviously a contradiction in terms, but this could be were you are surprising yourself and thus reject the ENFP designation.

    Your argument also implies Te, your discussion is full of references to what others have said to you and how your introspection has caused you to doubt their initially accepted suggestion. However, rather than processing this in an introverted fashion and deciding what you think, you take your concerns and present it to the out side world to add it's tuppence worth. While I'm butchering the process, it seems your entire discussion is about seeking agreement for your observation, thus extroversion.

    As for the jigsaw.. if that honestly is Te, then I know as an ENFP this is my primary way of problem solving and piecing together my thoughts and arguments, take this concept and that concept (assuming they are both relevant to the idea/topic under discussion) and work out how they fit together.

    Just some rudimentary thoughts.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, I didn't say that no ENFP could ever get into intellectual things. (which is why I would even try on the type in the first place. I know with the Ne, they will have the capacity for it). Just the obvservation that my "thinking" seems to fit an NTP type more, yet the question that was raised was whether the thinking is preferred and introverted, or nonpreferred and extraverted.
    With my ENTP and INTP best mates I have debated everything you can think of! I also had to master n dimensional vector calculous (which I have since thankfully been able to forget) while studyinf fro a physics degree. I'm currently completing my History degree and am in the top 10% of my year, I made it onto the Dean's list for a university I did an exchange semester in America with.

    ENFPs can think and do think deeply and intellectually about things. The presentation can some times be wooly. However you have joined some enfp yahoo groups; have you ever considered that you could be an exceptionally bright enfp? And thus the fluffiness you disliked in those forums could be due to that? I joined INTPc and before I grew to weary of argueing with random unknown people across the net, enjoyed the topics, depth and level of debate their rather than other more nf orinated places. I totally disliked the INTP stubborness and introverted assurance that they are right regardless. They argue, not to learn from you, but to teach you were you went wrong.



    OK, you are considering your type bases upon yoru evaluation of how you think about problems. If you are prepared to, let look at something which should demonstrate the ENFP/ENTP difference. Could you talk to us about the last very difficult personal decision that you had to make about your personal life, and how/ehy you chose to do what you did?

  4. #44
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    I'm surprised by your approach, several tests and experts have asserted that they think you are an ENFP, yet you strive to find evidence to call yourself ENTP and then add that you are unsure about the e/i preference. This suggests that you MAY have some personal preference as to which label you should be assigned to wear. Iw as wondering if you'd considered that?
    Well, for one thing; I'm reading more about the functions as all of this is going on, and thinking about it, and then realizing how much I tend to use one over the other. Sometimes as you know, it's hard to know the difference between not only Te and Ti, but also Fi and Ti. So I might read a description or a test question and say "yeah, I do that", but I still could have mistaken a "principle" for a "value" (the line between them is often blurry, or a function projected outward from one turned inward.

    The only test that suggested ENFP was my taking the 20 Step II (EAR) subscales and scoring them (from 0-10) directly (at the request of someone I was discussing my type with. And he thought I was INTP until that). But now I looking back over it, I may have overestimated the Feeling questions and underestimated the Thinking ones. Already, I had one out-of-pattern subscale (OOPS), Questioning over Accomodating. This I believe is part of the "Choleric" aspect of my personality that is lacking in the ENFP profile, and is more NTish.

    The "only "expert" was a type coach on one of the boards, and as I said, she let too much of her own issues into it to be totally objective. She "had" to prove I was ENFP so she could say the "puer" (Te) brought out her "witch". I listened to her since she really seemed to know this stuff a lot, but ultimately, as even she said, only I can determine my type, and people of course are looking at what is seen on the outside, but sometimes what is inside can be different. Plus, I have been under a lot of stress lately, and I think things might be a bit skewed, as I look back deeply over which functions I really have gravitated to over the course of my life.

    The ultimate reason I have preferred an NT type over NF is because the NT's are pragmatic and Structure-oriented (Keirsey and Berens' terms, respectively), while NF is cooperative and motive oriented; and the former is what would describe me better. I may weigh things and behave cooperatively, but my gut instinct and inclination is pragmatic, with a logical "structure". This also seemed to match my being "Choleric" in the area of leadership and responsibilites. The ENFP seemed to lack this key aspect of my personality. Yes, this may tie into my own theory as to how two systems tie together, but I did try to remain objective, and seriously looked into ENFP, but it just did not completely fit, and then when I better grasped what the Ti traits were, and remembered how much I actually use and enjoy them (frameworks, leverage points, etc), it became more clear that that is really more preferred, and Te is the real "shadow" function I learned as a defense mechanism, from being surreounded by it when I was younger.

    Someone described the ENFP as the introverted-extrovert. Which is obviously a contradiction in terms, but this could be were you are surprising yourself and thus reject the ENFP designation.
    In the temperament analysis I use, I fall into a fifth temperament who "expresses" as an introvert, and "responds" as an extrovert. (It is the one in the upper left of my avatar). Expression is what we "say" we want (so he looks like an introvert aho avoids people) yet responsiveness is what we "really" want, so his wants are the same as an extrovert. That would partially explain this, and it can apparently fall into any NP (informing) type. (ENTP is also said to be an introverted extrovert).

    Your argument also implies Te, your discussion is full of references to what others have said to you and how your introspection has caused you to doubt their initially accepted suggestion. However, rather than processing this in an introverted fashion and deciding what you think, you take your concerns and present it to the out side world to add it's tuppence worth. While I'm butchering the process, it seems your entire discussion is about seeking agreement for your observation, thus extroversion.
    That's basically what the coach was saying. That's why I didn't dispute at first, but after doing a lot of reflection, it seems this is more of a defense mechanism to try to be heard. I do process it inside first. It's like I do both, but I have learned to try to present it to the outside world also. And apparently, I'm not very good at it, or at least not very effective; suggesting that Te is not a naturally preferred process at all; depsite what the coach was seeing.

    ENFPs can think and do think deeply and intellectually about things. The presentation can some times be wooly. However you have joined some enfp yahoo groups; have you ever considered that you could be an exceptionally bright enfp? And thus the fluffiness you disliked in those forums could be due to that?
    I thought of that. (I didn't dislike the fluffiness; I was just looking for a more intellectual discussion of the theories at the time). Still, it seems there is a fundamental type difference. I seem to have more intellectual chemistry with INTP's such as Xander and others than any ENFP I have run across.
    I joined INTPc and before I grew to weary of argueing with random unknown people across the net, enjoyed the topics, depth and level of debate their rather than other more nf orinated places. I totally disliked the INTP stubborness and introverted assurance that they are right regardless. They argue, not to learn from you, but to teach you were you went wrong.
    I have always had a tendency to be like that (in intellectual matters, at least), though I have always had someone around to correct me to not be like that, and it has increased my "conscience" in that area. That's another reason I seem to fit that type better, and that any Fi and Te was learned from the environment.

    OK, you are considering your type bases upon yoru evaluation of how you think about problems. If you are prepared to, let look at something which should demonstrate the ENFP/ENTP difference. Could you talk to us about the last very difficult personal decision that you had to make about your personal life, and how/ehy you chose to do what you did?
    OK' I'll have to think on that one. What to use as a good example.

  5. #45
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Eric,
    Try checking this thread out MBTI dissection - The Puddin' and see if that helps your dissection. I believe it's more along your lines of how to think about the MBTI.
    Just read the whole thing, finally, and it was very interesting. That elfinchilde really breaks this stuff down well. And someone said she posts over here too? (And it looks like the same Jennifer is over there as well).
    Well, then, her's my cognitiveprocesses results:

    Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************** (18.3)
    limited use
    introverted Sensing (Si) *********************************** (35.2)
    good use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *********************************************** (47.7)
    excellent use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) ******************* (19)
    limited use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) ********************* (21.2)
    limited use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) ***************************************** (41.5)
    excellent use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) ************* (13)
    unused
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ******************************************* (43.5)
    excellent use

    Summary Analysis of Profile
    By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: INFP

    Lead (Dominant) Process
    Introverted Feeling (Fi): Staying true to who you really are. Paying close attention to your personal identity, values and beliefs. Checking with your conscience. Choosing behavior congruent with what is important to you.

    Support (Auxilliary) Process
    Extraverted Intuiting (Ne): Exploring the emerging patterns. Wondering about patterns of interaction across various situations. Checking what hypotheses and meanings fit best. Trusting what emerges as you shift a situation's dynamics.

    If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ENFP, or INTP

    If these results are different from what you know of yourself, you might consider why your developmental pattern does not align with your expectation. You might also consider exploring this result as a possible better fit.

    The Four Temperaments
    Corresponding best-fit temperaments based on your profile: Theorist; secondly Catalyst; then Improviser; and lastly, Stabilizer.


    Like with the EAR, I may have overestimated Fi (and also underestimated Fe!) I plan to take it over when I'm sure I understand the function definitions better.

    Still funny it would suggst INFP, but then say the temperament is Theorist!

    So particularly on p.5 of that thread, where she breaks down INTP, sounds like it could explain things. We may still be stronger or weaker at any function despite which place it has in the archetypes. I particularly like what evan said (which also pertains to the above response to Dom):

    other extroverted functions influence the introverted ones and vice versa. Eg, an ENTP can look like a Te user since Ne acts out Ti's conclusions.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************************** (30)
    average use
    introverted Sensing (Si) ***************************** (29)
    average use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ******************************* (31.1)
    good use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) ********************* (21.7)
    limited use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) ************************ (24.7)
    average use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) ********************************* (33.1)
    good use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) ************************************ (36)
    excellent use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) *********************************** (35)
    good use


    Summary Analysis of Profile
    By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: ENFP



    oh dear... What a supprise... lol I do feel for your situation, I have always and consisently scored as the same thing... so I've no idea what it is like to feel justified in playing with ones type...

  7. #47
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Feel justified in playing with one's type?

    I wouldn't say it was a matter of being justified; it's a matter of sorting out our true preferences, and it's easy to misunderstand some of the questions. Already that test made me both an INFP and a Theorist at the same time.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Feel justified in playing with one's type?

    I wouldn't say it was a matter of being justified; it's a matter of sorting out our true preferences, and it's easy to misunderstand some of the questions. Already that test made me both an INFP and a Theorist at the same time.
    How can we sort out our true prefernces? How on earth can we observe ourselves objectively enough? I'd love to say I can, and would defend the process of introspection which has brought me to the understanding of myself thus far, but I can't pretend that I'mnot looking at myself through a paradigm which is constructed and approved by me and the definations I use.

    I could believe introvert sensing was directly linked to my ability to stand on my head (which like introverted sensing isn't my strong point)...

    A rather silly simillie but i hope you see my point...

    By justified, I simply mean there is enough evidence to convince others that my type is uncertain. I've never had a test show anything other than ENFP, so I'd feel utterly arrogant in redefining this. that and the other to empower me with an arguement for why I'm really INTP. If a test couldn't make up its mind, then I'd feel justified in playing. Say I test enfp 55% of the time and entp the rest, then I'd be curious and fiddle with it and I'd feel justified in doing so.

    As for questions on tests and the like, take the test we did above, I refused to agree that I liked to weave into a theory RANDOM contexts. I said I liked it a bit. Now other people would say I do this all the time, I disagree as I rarely add something that I think is genuiningly random. There is always an intuitive link, and if there is a link then it isn't random. It's like another question that asked about looking for random links and patterns... well if there are links and patterns then it isn't random...

    However, by sticking to my defination of random, my extroverted intution score is lower than it should be, something people doing the test for me wouldn't have missed.

    I guess I'm pointing toward asserting that you can't merely choose your own type, while I agree that you know what happens in your head best, if other people do not recognise the preference in you then it has to be difficult to finally rest upon it.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, I didn't say that no ENFP could ever get into intellectual things. (which is why I would even try on the type in the first place. I know with the Ne, they will have the capacity for it). Just the obvservation that my "thinking" seems to fit an NTP type more, yet the question that was raised was whether the thinking is preferred and introverted, or nonpreferred and extraverted.
    hmmm. What I'm thinking is that I've liked and been frustrated with both NTP and NTJ theorists, so you should notice what process you are communicating well with an NFP with. Make sure not to confuse the processes. If you're communicating well with extraverted intuition, but are confused by thier thinking (if you're an ENFP it just looks like a fairly subtle naming process), then it's an NTP. If you can communicate logic well with them, but cannot communicate your imagination, then it's an NTJ (and with theorists who are good at explaining stuff, you CAN go a long time before realizing they are using a different process than you some of the time). This is all assuming that you ARE an ENFP.
    Depending on which process is frustrating you more, you might very well enjoy the company of the NTPs you've met more than the NTJs you've met, but that wouldn't make you an NTP.

    So I had an INTJ friend who's also a meteorology major, and in the arena of 'picture it in your head', we can't usually communicate. However, I learned a bunch about how to read thermodynamic diagrams (Te) from him. And in general, he's easy to understand. Then there's my INTJ calculus teacher. He annoyed the hell out of my by the end of this term (and he ended multivariable calculus and only barely started teaching line integrals, how lame is that?). He was generally irritable, thought he was a lot more funny than he was, totally freaked when he smelled pot in the classroom (it was coming through a vent). Whenever I asked him an extraverted intuition question, he had a little spasm, said he didn't know what I was talking about, and said that I made him forget what he was talking about. And when I came up with a quick way of getting the equation for a plane, he made me redo it because it wasn't the *right* way. He really pissed me off.

    I could tell you similar stories of INTPs. I have an INTP friend who goes to MIT. He is great. He'll answer any question I have about anything. My INTP chemistry teacher, on the other hand was *nice*, but his lectures were confusing as hell, he overcomplicated everything, and he covered extremely hard and extremely easy material at exactly the same pace.

  10. #50
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I don't seem to be confused by the NTP's thinking at all, but can relate to it very well, and am very inspired by it as well. And they seem to understand me better than others as well. (This is part of what I meant by fitting or having intellectual chemistry with them).

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