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Thread: ENFP/INFP

  1. #121
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    Now for the Bissel stuff.
    The last time I mentioned that article to him, he said he had rethought it, abd was coming out with an "Achilles 2.0", in which those behaviors will be specifically about codependency, or one of those more extreme situations.

    I still use it because I just find the observation about the TJ's to be very accurate. They do tend to blame a lot, and it doesn't even have to be a very serious issue. You keep pointing to what others (especially FP's) do, but he didn't say that nobody else ever blamed, or whatever. It's more about who has the inclination to be more quicker in the behavior. (and that doesn't mean that other types can't ever be quick at it for whatever reason).

    As for the FP's, he said they "stuffed" their criticisms, not that they never criticize. Just like he said the TP's stuff their emotions, but they burst out with them eventually. That would follow with FP's and criticism. After all, their Feeling judgment is introverted, so I imagine the criticisms would stay inside first, and when values are violated enough, then they will unleash them to the world.

    Some of the points you made were interesting. Where did you get those insights from?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcticangel02 View Post
    A couple random points:

    Actually, extraversion and confidence really don't have much to do with each other. The extravert may appear more confident, but many of them can be really quite shy. Likewise, there are plenty of confident introverts. So try not to mix those two up.
    But is that behavior more learned or influenced by other causes? As an inborn trait, being "expressive" usually stems from confidence to approach others. Those who are more "reserved" usually have a fear of rejection that drives them to not as readily approach others. Of course, anyone can change their behavior, and go against their natural inclination and develop "confidence". But I was just mentioning in passing how I understood confidence from a temperamental viewpoint.
    Actually, I've heard elsewhere that he's an ESTP. But I'm not really sure.

    ISFPs always seem to come across quite soft and kind, to me. But of course the level-headed ISFP I know is certainly not the be-all and end-all of that type.
    So do you think Rosie is that type? (That's who we were really talking about).

  3. #123
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    But is that behavior more learned or influenced by other causes? As an inborn trait, being "expressive" usually stems from confidence to approach others. Those who are more "reserved" usually have a fear of rejection that drives them to not as readily approach others. Of course, anyone can change their behavior, and go against their natural inclination and develop "confidence". But I was just mentioning in passing how I understood confidence from a temperamental viewpoint.
    IMO, an extravert's 'confidence' is very much a learned behaviour. It certainly isn't inborn. Confidence or shyness, as such, stems largely from a knowledge or lack of knowledge about how to proceed in a social situation. A shy person doesn't know if what they say will be taken the wrong way, or they won't be able to respond appropriately to what another person says - the fear of rejection you mention.

    The extravert may appear more confident purely because their extraversion has compelled them, at a young age, to go out and socialise, regardless of their confidence or lack thereof. And through that they learn what is appropriate and what is not, and by the time they have reached adulthood, they've already made all the mistakes there are to make and are 'confident' because they know how to proceed. An introvert, who kept mostly to themselves, has not had that experience of making those mistakes early on, may still be shy and uncomfortable around people well into adulthood.

    And so, yes, an extravert is more likely to appear confident to the outside world, (especially in late teens/early adulthood when the difference is most apparent) but there is certainly no inborn preference to be more or less confident.

    Heck, I'm an example of a shy extravert.

    So do you think Rosie is that type? (That's who we were really talking about).
    I wouldn't have the faintest clue. I don't really pay her any attention. Just felt like pointing out that maybe the reason Bush seems different to these supposed ISFPs is because he's a different type.


    Just randomly, I notice you have a remarkable dedication to this topic for an NP.
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  4. #124
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcticangel02 View Post
    IMO, an extravert's 'confidence' is very much a learned behaviour. It certainly isn't inborn. Confidence or shyness, as such, stems largely from a knowledge or lack of knowledge about how to proceed in a social situation. A shy person doesn't know if what they say will be taken the wrong way, or they won't be able to respond appropriately to what another person says - the fear of rejection you mention.

    The extravert may appear more confident purely because their extraversion has compelled them, at a young age, to go out and socialise, regardless of their confidence or lack thereof. And through that they learn what is appropriate and what is not, and by the time they have reached adulthood, they've already made all the mistakes there are to make and are 'confident' because they know how to proceed. An introvert, who kept mostly to themselves, has not had that experience of making those mistakes early on, may still be shy and uncomfortable around people well into adulthood.

    And so, yes, an extravert is more likely to appear confident to the outside world, (especially in late teens/early adulthood when the difference is most apparent) but there is certainly no inborn preference to be more or less confident.

    Heck, I'm an example of a shy extravert.
    Well, I guess, we're using "confidence" differently. The compulsion to go out and socialize you refer to as apart of extraversion is what I'm calling "confidence". And introvert does not have that, in having his uncomfortableness around people, which is what I have seen associated with an inborn "fear of rejection".
    So the confidence you're describing is purely the learned one.
    Just randomly, I notice you have a remarkable dedication to this topic for an NP.
    NP's aren't usually dedicated to stuff like this? (It seems the greratest theorists of this stuff, like Keirsey and Berens, are INTP's!
    This is Ne heaven, man!

  5. #125
    To the top of the world arcticangel02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, I guess, we're using "confidence" differently. The compulsion to go out and socialize you refer to as apart of extraversion is what I'm calling "confidence". And introvert does not have that, in having his uncomfortableness around people, which is what I have seen associated with an inborn "fear of rejection".
    So the confidence you're describing is purely the learned one.
    Ehh, I disagree with your terminology, but I suppose you can't really argue labels, can you? ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    NP's aren't usually dedicated to stuff like this? (It seems the greratest theorists of this stuff, like Keirsey and Berens, are INTP's!
    This is Ne heaven, man!
    Haha, I guess. It is indeed fascinating! I am just very prone to proposing something, getting a bit of feedback and then forgetting all about it for a while and then maybe coming back later on and trying to revive it. If I could be bothered. (Notice the ENFPs in this thread appearing for a while, vanishing for some time and sometimes returning at a later point?)

    Actually, there was a thread of seriousness in there somewhere, which I almost forgot about. Which sort of illustrates my point. But anyway, I mean to say that you seem pretty good at keeping the discussion on track and going in a fairly straight line. When I went off-topic and mentioned Bush's type, you pulled it right back to asking if it had anything to do with the topic at hand (Rosanne's type). Ne usually can't help chasing tangents.

    This could be a difference between dom-Ne (everything is a potential tangent to be chased down as far as interest allows, regardless of relevance) and aux-Ne (tangents to be happily explored to the edges of framework of argument?), however?
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    Sensing (26%) ---- iNtuition (74%)
    Thinking (16%) ---- Feeling (84%)
    Judging (5%) ---- Perceiving (95%)

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  6. #126
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    Maybe so, but with me, it also might be a combination of time (to be getting into tangents; but I otherwise could easily get lost in them), plus the fact that I was just interested in what people generally think Rosie's full type is (I only hear that it's an NF).
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  7. #127
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The last time I mentioned that article to him, he said he had rethought it, abd was coming out with an "Achilles 2.0", in which those behaviors will be specifically about codependency, or one of those more extreme situations.

    I still use it because I just find the observation about the TJ's to be very accurate. They do tend to blame a lot, and it doesn't even have to be a very serious issue. You keep pointing to what others (especially FP's) do, but he didn't say that nobody else ever blamed, or whatever. It's more about who has the inclination to be more quicker in the behavior. (and that doesn't mean that other types can't ever be quick at it for whatever reason).

    As for the FP's, he said they "stuffed" their criticisms, not that they never criticize. Just like he said the TP's stuff their emotions, but they burst out with them eventually. That would follow with FP's and criticism. After all, their Feeling judgment is introverted, so I imagine the criticisms would stay inside first, and when values are violated enough, then they will unleash them to the world.

    Some of the points you made were interesting. Where did you get those insights from?
    And what I just described about theoretical physicists happens to some degree almost anywhere in academia.

    I don't find the thing about TJ types accurate. You have a very quick imagination, be careful. I could imagine TJs being like that, but probably just because that's such a reinforced stereotype that it makes more sense to people than it should. When I actually think about the TJ types that I know, I don't notice 'blaming' as a particular trait for them. I do know that we live in an extraverted feeling culture, so just about everyone has ears for extraverted thinking criticism, someone like Bissel might not even notice other kinds of criticism for what they are. It wouldn't require any stretch of his imagination to mis-categorize criticisms from the other cognitive processes, it could probably happen pretty 'naturally' in his head since he's already made so many false assumptions about the different type's motives.

    For example, "FPs stuff thier criticisms" is an assumption, it's a combination of assuming that because FPs have trouble expressing criticisms in the traditionally recognized format, that they tend not to criticize (total bullshit), and that they must be stuffing, or repressing thier criticisms (more bullshit!).

    -'stuffing thier emotions' (again, he automatically assumes that they are repressing emotions) is, if anything, a general thinking type thing or a theorist temperment thing in general. I honestly believe that he put no thought into the 'TPs stuffing thier emotions', and just added it to complete his dichotomy.

    -I know (and knew before you mentioned it) that his idea is about the inclination of these types, and what behavior they would go to quickest, I just dont' believe in any of those supposed inclinations.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    And what I just described about theoretical physicists happens to some degree almost anywhere in academia.

    I don't find the thing about TJ types accurate. You have a very quick imagination, be careful. I could imagine TJs being like that, but probably just because that's such a reinforced stereotype that it makes more sense to people than it should. When I actually think about the TJ types that I know, I don't notice 'blaming' as a particular trait for them.

    I do know that we live in an extraverted feeling culture, so just about everyone has ears for extraverted thinking criticism, someone like Bissel might not even notice other kinds of criticism for what they are. It wouldn't require any stretch of his imagination to mis-categorize criticisms from the other cognitive processes, it could probably happen pretty 'naturally' in his head since he's already made so many false assumptions about the different type's motives.
    Well; I grew up around them. almost my enire family, apparently. And Te is not my "relief" like it is yours, so perhaps I take the behavior differently than you; hence them seeming to fit "blaming". (and again; he said Version 2.0 was going to make these behaviors more about codependency).
    For example, "FPs stuff thier criticisms" is an assumption, it's a combination of assuming that because FPs have trouble expressing criticisms in the traditionally recognized format, that they tend not to criticize (total bullshit), and that they must be stuffing, or repressing thier criticisms (more bullshit!).

    -'stuffing thier emotions' (again, he automatically assumes that they are repressing emotions) is, if anything, a general thinking type thing or a theorist temperment thing in general. I honestly believe that he put no thought into the 'TPs stuffing thier emotions', and just added it to complete his dichotomy.
    I don't think the "stuffing" is necessarily supposed to be a conscious act, as you appear to be making it seem wth the statement "repressing".
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  9. #129
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well; I grew up around them. almost my enire family, apparently. And Te is not my "relief" like it is yours, so perhaps I take the behavior differently than you; hence them seeming to fit "blaming". (and again; he said Version 2.0 was going to make these behaviors more about codependency).
    I don't think the "stuffing" is necessarily supposed to be a conscious act, as you appear to be making it seem wth the statement "repressing".
    people usually hear blaming when they hear someone use thier 6thfunction, so you might be onto something there. I mean, with domTe teachers, even when they're quite brusk, I usually don't get hurt by that, in fact, I usually enjoy them. On the other hand, when I hear people blast someone for 'innapropriate' behavior, I can get very irritated if it's something I don't consider impotant.

  10. #130
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    So I was wondering about that. Are NFP's able t deal with STJ power structures (in an overall ESTJ society) better? They just drive me up the wall.
    Fe will get on my nerves if I feel the person is being unreasonable. (And sometimes, when dom. it might be backed up with Fi). Otherwise, I don't have a problem with it. But Te (in preferred roles) is the one I have issues with (as much as I may appear to copy it).
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